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I am not a contractor, I am someone who is building a residential house for the first time. My cabinet sub wrote a bid, and I have not signed it. I paid a 50% deposit. The cabinets have been installed accordingly, except for one thing. The master vanity was designed with vague description between the two of us. After it was installed, I noticed the two sink bowls are at the outer edges of the vanity. I had requested that a bank of drawers be installed in the middle section of the vanity. I expected the bowls would still be at least 6 inches from each end. The cabinet sub designed it with 23 inch sink cabinets on each end, which means the bowls sit 1 inch from each end. After expressing that I am not accepting this vanity as is, to move the bowls toward the center so there is at least 4 to 6 inches on either end of the vanity from each bowl, he refused to rebuild it, stating that he built it correctly. The plan shows the sink bowls situated at 6 inches from each end. In addition, if we were to keep this vanity with the bowls 1 inch from each end, the electric outlets are directly above each sink. I pointed to him that these outlets were already installed when he came out to check his measurements, that he should have taken this into consideration as well. And, the plumbing is located more toward the center of the vanity as well.
To move the sinks inward with the existing vanity will throw the alignment of the doors off with each sink. To leave the sinks where they are would allow water to drip down the side and no elbow room on the other sink area (there’s a wall there). I don’t feel like I have to pay and accept this vanity.
I would like to withold the money from his last payment and hire someone else to finish the job. I plan to give this sub one more chance to correct this problem, then I am going to write a letter to him and post a complaint with the contractors’ state board.
You guys are contractors. Please advise me what I can do.
Thanks,
-Miss Rookie
Replies
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Miss Rookie, This is a perfect example of failure to communicate, which causes so many problems like this. I agree with you that this is a stupid way to build a vanity and install a sink. If your description of what you wanted didn't jive with the builders idea of how it should be done, then he should have pointed out the problems that might pop up. I don't know what kind of description you gave him, but in my opinion he screwed up building it this way without mentioning that the sinks would be so close to the walls. I think it's important for professionals to give some direction to well meaning but sometimes naive customers. As for the electrical outlets, you should have directed the electrician as to exactly where you wanted them. It sounds like they are in the wrong place no matter what kind of sink spacing you have.
My advice for the rest of your project is: ASK QUESTIONS!!!! VERIFY!!! DOUBLE CHECK!!! Assume somebody is going to screw up and act to prevent it!
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To the Customer:
I'm wondering at what point you chose to dislike the design. As you say it was completely installed which means that at some point the cabinet base was placed, leveled/plumbed, and nailed off. Was the countertop built by the cabinet sub? Was it installed later? Then the plumber came out to drop in the sinks and attach supply/DWV. Did you live with it for awhile after that and before you decided you didn't like it?
In my experience as a GC, timing is important. If you noticed the problem immediately and the cabinet was clearly built wrong (>1" in any dimension - based on clear plans that you both signed), then sure, your sub should correct.
But if the plans were not scaled and not dimensioned, and the sink model and sizes were not specified, and the electrician placed the receptacles in the wrong spot, then you now know how it feels to be the general contractor on a job. And with time and experience, a good general contractor may have picked up on these issues early enough to solve them. If missed, the GC would want to make things right.
So, to keep the Customer happy (you), the General Contractor (you) will have to pay for the correction.
PS. How about moving a receptacle to the wall, in between the sinks? And, before you call the State License Board, make sure you have a valid claim - your Subcontractors livilihood and reputation is at stake.
*Good point QED (about the GC having to eat this one).ALL GC's will tell you that there is a learning curve. The first few houses, or remodels have these sort of problems. After the 10th house, you will have managed to live through all the problems, and you will then know how to prevent them. Until then, you will be paying the piper.You "the customer" are exactly the reason that I don't frame houses for homeowners. Every house that I build has some vagaries in it. I the tradesman have to make quick on site decisions, or shut down the job and look for a "higher uppper, wrong decision maker". I prefer to make the quick one, because usually the decision is wrong anyway (homeowners always seem to want it the other way, murphy's law). Most builders will back me up when it's time to explain to an unsatisfied homeowner. They are glad that I make decisions, and expedite the process.bite the bullet on this one.Blue
*Good points Bleu, Especially regarding quick onsite decisions. When In doubt, I get on the cell phone, If I don't get satisfaction I build to the plan, then charge 'em to make it right. Vague, improperly dimensioned plans cost me boatloads of money. As stated before, it doesnt matter whether I side with the builder or the homeowner on this one, same guy pays. As far as I am concerned, it seems that the lack of a detailed plan on the vanity indicates that at that time it was unimportant to henrietta homeowner. I wonder if she expected a vanity at all. I am not above working for an owner builder, and have met many fine people this way, some more talented than professional builders. But, I am sick of the weasels who want to jump into the job but not assume the responsibilies. I think they figure how much they can save (which they couldn't possibly know without experience) and do anything to achieve their goal. Unless you have the time to mangage the project and your subs, and are willing to attend a few semesters at the school of hard knocks, I would suggest that one time owner builders stick to their day jobs. The vast majority would be better off taking a part time job, or working more overtime to make extra money, than trying to save it on their house.As to the cabinet sub, pay the guy, sounds like he made an honest assumption, or mistake. The maximum you are entitled to with hold if anything, would be the vanity not the 50% cutie pie! He who builds for himself has an idiot for a client!Tom
*Miss Rookie,I wish I knew your sub so I could help him write a lien on your property...You have proven to yourself that you haven't GC'd the job very well and now are looking to blame someone other than yourself...Typical.Jack : )
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The onus should never be on someone offering to design for free. No fee, no liability. True, the contractor should have explained that the drawer bank should have had one blank door at the top, however a little compassion is due. Meet him half way and be glad you had such a wonderful job done. Cover the materials...I'm sure he will cover the labour.
Next time you will pay an architect or designer to adress your spacial concerns...and mabee he won't be so quick to work for free.
*Control C (Copy), Control V (Paste)Let me just qualify this. I work for lawyers. Lots and lots of lawyers. I no longer have any problem getting paid. I have many happy clients. Here are a few exerpts from the contract I paid (One of my clients), to construct for me at a cost of $2500.00. My gift to you all in exchange for the advice I have recieved from you folks in the past...sorry I haven't been around much. I am every client's best friend and don't shrug responsibility for errors I make. But god help them if they try to jerk me after I live up to my end of the bargain. I also have a nasty habit of taking before during and after photographs...Very demoralizing to an ill prepared theif who would make off with your wallet if you let them. From this, please ammend your contracts and have them checked out for legality by a lawyer. However, if you are a crooked contractor...Disregard the following...There's a lot of us honest guys...and a lot of us are Italian...With big knives.In the event of the default of any of the said installment, the whole amount remaining unpaid shall forthwith become due and payable without demand or notice with interest on the amount overdue and unpaid at the rate of 2% per month (24% per annum). The buyer hereby authorizes the seller to obtain such credit information and reports as is required regarding the undersigned from others, as permitted by law.2. Title and ownership in and to the materials shall remain in seller at buyers risk until the entire purchase price, interest and all costs are fully paid in cash including payment of any note, renewal note, or extension given judgment secured Buyer will not part with possession of the materials and will keep the materials in good condition and free and clear of all liens and encumbrances. Seller may pay any item or charge upon the materials or property to which the materials are affixed and add the amount thereof to the amount hereby secured and the whole amount hereby secured shall fall due forthwith. 3. It is understood and agreed that unless otherwise stipulated in writing, obtaining of any building permit and complying with local building by-laws is Buyer’s responsibility. 4. Buyer agrees that seller shall not be liable for delays in or failure to complete delivery or installation of all or any of the said materials if due to fire, strikes, weather conditions, war, governmental regulations or any cause beyond control of the seller. 5. Buyer agrees that extra materials on the job that are not required under this contract are the property of seller and must be returned to seller on completion of the contract. 6. Seller agrees that all work done by the seller will be performed in a workmanlike manner. 7. Buyer agrees to execute credit applications and to supply all information for the proper establishment of credit immediately upon request by seller. Buyer agrees to execute any promissory note, completion certificate or other documents required by seller in connection with this contract. In the event buyer’s credit is not approved, seller may cancel this contract, and buyer will be refunded any payments made by buyer, but shall not be entitled to any further claim. 8. There are no representations, collateral agreements, conditions or warranties, express or implied by statute or otherwise on the part of seller with respect to the said materials or this contract or affecting the rights of the parties other than as specifically contained herein or attached hereto forming part of this contract. 9. This contract, all its covenants, promises and conditions shall ensure to the benefit of and be binding upon the respective heirs, executors, administrators, successors and assigns of the parties hereto. 10. It is expressly agreed by the parties hereto that should the buyer default in performance of the conditions contained in this contract, then the deposit paid at the time of execution of this contract to the seller, shall at the option of the seller, be designated liquidated damages and payable forthwith to the seller.
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Holy Moly Lawrence, you paid 2500 bucks for a contract that contained those clauses.
Never read such double talk in my life and I can't believe that you read it carefully or that your clients lawyer would allow them to sign it.
Read line 6. Seller agrees that all work done by the seller will be performed in a workmanlike manner.
Don't know how to tell you this, but your lawyers don't know squat about construction contracts.
*There is a legal consideration known as "good faith" that applies to both Pete's dilemma and Mrs. Rookie's dispute. Succintly, it is implied in a verbal or written contract that all parties to the contract are not out to screw another. Pete's customer wants a new shop and he agrees to pay a reasonable price. Mrs. Rookie wants nice cabs, but she leaves the design to the professional.In both cases, one party has breached the contract. As Gabe pointed out, in Mrs. Rookie's case, payment of a 50% deposit constitutes acceptance of a contract, even if it were a verbal contract. That there was a vague communication is irrelevant. She deferred to the professional. It is a reasonable assumption on her part that he would know how to lay out a decent cab. The cabinetmaker is on the hook. As a contractor, he is a business entity. It is reasonable to think he does not require Mrs. Rookie's "supervision" in determining layout or design.But since he is being so difficult, I suggest she act in good faith by offering A)pay full cost--not price--for the errant cab and use it in her gararge, or B)pay 50% towards a new cab.It is interesting to note that Pete's customer does not dipute the sum Pete is asking for. The problem seems to be only non-payment. So, to clear up the matter Pete must write a "Letter of Demand" demanding payment within X amount of days.And since Pete's customer is in arrears on worked completed, it is reasonable for Pete not to perform future work, no matter what is customer says. To solve Pete's problem I suggest that he pay a lawyer to write the letter. Basically, he's paying for the letterhead and to show he means business. Fifty bucks should do it, but be sure to add this to your bill, Pete. Also, act right NOW on any lien. In CA, you are limited to work performed within the last twenty days. Small Claims is a joke. So you get judgement, it is still up to you to collect. If a lien or demand letter doesn't do it, go straight to Civil. I'm not kidding! I know, I know; why should you have to work twice for your money? The thing is, it's YOUR money. You need to take strong action against this kook. $25K is not really a big amount, so you probably won't even have to be there.OR, you could picket out in front of his shop on a couple of days off. Be sure to wear a hardhat and boots, so people will know who you are. And, by all means, bring your darling little girl, gather the sympathy for your plight 'cause that mean ole man took your paycheck so Daddy couldn't feed his baby.I find it very hard to believe this cabinetmaker is in business for the long haul, if he were he would eat a couple of hundred dollars and buy Mrs. Rookie a new cab. no questions asked. Talk about free advertising from a delighted customer!!!And what a way to start a new shop--the owner tries to stiff his first customer! Quick question: Pete, how many people do you know? Are you going to refer even one to the new business in town? Will they then turn and tell their friends?
*Are you a lawyer Gabe. 5 lawyers signed that contract last year. #1 No one actually reads it. People are generally lazy and will tend to read the short terms. That's where " Seller agrees that all work done by the seller will be performed in a workmanlike manner", comes in. The contract is legal and binding in Canada Believe it or not!.#2 One of the lawyers that did sign it, when allowing his wife to play the "delay 30 day, and try for 60", Immedietly settled...like in 20 minutes I dropped by to pick up a cheque. Like the wording or not, I'll use what works.
*I know that there are boiler plate contracts and forms available for various needs, residential leases comes to mind. Are there not such contracts available for construction and remodeling? Where would you get them? (I know, probably the same place as the leases, but I don't know where that is, I just know they are available.)Rich Beckman
* You can pick up generic remodeling contracts from office max, or other office supply stores.The AIA American Istitute OF Architects (I think) has many different ones. They are primarily geared toward commercial.Blue
*Lawrence read Blue's post, regarding generic construction contracts being available at a variety of locations near everone in the business.My message is that no contract is perfect.The bigger the wording, the longer the paragraph, the more specific the intent, THE EASIER IT IS FOR ME TO TWIST AROUND.Lawrence, I'm not trying to be difficult with you or to try and embarrass you into a corner.I'm not a lawyer BUT I'm a partner in Bourgault Martel & Associates inc. This company specilizes in case preparation work for some of the better law firms in Ottawa.Our job is to investigate construction claims, sometimes do complete techical audits of the jobsite and put it into words that will be understood by the judges.There is an assuption, that judges in their capacity,know everything, after all they are judges, right.Reality is they, for the most part, only know law.They don't understand industry standards, they don't know which expert is right, they don't know that the work you did was good or bad.So when some smart ass comes along and demonstrates inconsistencies in a contract, all your good work could be for nothing.If you look at my original post on this subject, you will notice the importance I placed on documentation being in order.This dosn't mean having an iron clad contract, because I've never seen one.What it means is this:When you first approach your client, you have a quote. Make sure that the quote is clear and easy to read. At this point the client will either agree to everything, which is rare, or he or she will have comments for changes.THIS PART IS IMPORTANT: WRITE DOWN EVERYTHING THAT IS CHANGED AND AGREED TO BY ALL PARTIES.THIS IS THE DOCUMENT THAT MAY SAVE YOUR ASS LATER IN AN ARGUMENT.You don't need architect drawn 30 pages drawings on most of the small jobs that you do, BUT DO MAKE A SCHETCH AND HAVE IT SIGNED BY ALL PARTIES.If your client comes in and you're halfway through the work and wants you to change something,PULL OUT YOUR WRITING PAD AND HAVE HIM SIGN THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE CHANGING THE ORIGINAL CONTRACT.EXPLAIN TO THE CLIENT, WHERE YOU ARE AS FAR AS PROGRESS IS CONCERNED, HOW MUCH THE CHANGE WILL AFFECT YOUR SCHEDULE, HOW MUCH THE CHANGE WILL ADD TO THE CONTRACT AND WHY.DO NOT AND I REPEAT DO NOT SAY WE'LL WORK IT OUT LATER.Last note; DO KEEP A RECORD OF EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON WITH YOUR SITES IN A BOUND BOOK, ONE THAT CAN'T BE ADDED TO SUCH AS A RING BINDER. BUY YOURSELF A SMALL CAMERA AND KEEP IT WITH YOU,AT THE END OF THE DAY OR WHEN THE MOOD STRIKES YOU, TAKE A PICTURE OR TWO OF WHERE YOU ARE AND RECORD IT IN YOUR BOOK THAT YOU TOOK A PICTURE, WITH THE DATE AND TIME AND NOTE THE EXACT LOCATION.Enough on this subject for now, Guys take care,for the most part we are paid to build things, not explain them in court, or act as collection agencies.If you feel that you did good work, and your client won't pay, go get em with a clean attitude and simple but clear documents.
* Very good advice Gabe! I'm going to start the notepad method on my nextjob (Friday)! Blue
*Thanks Gabe! Great advice!I'm glad my responses still illicit such passionate and insightful responses. I thank you sincerely for the time you invested in your response. Till next time.
*Gabe,i couldn/t agree more. As for the camera, I use a digital I bought at Sams club for under $300.00. I store all the pictures on the computer & even back them up. After all, a picture is worth 1000 words(& even more money).
*Gabe, You're in Ottawa? Specialize in case preparation for construction claims? Sounds like we ought to get together some day and go over my standard contract! I'm in Perth, but work a lot in the city. How about we "do lunch" sometime?
*Ross, you got my Email, have your people call my people and lets do lunch.
*Gabe, Ross, I'm from Ottawa (Wakefield, actually), now in Mira, Cape Breton. How about we do it at my place? (I'm going to take a look at the Mclures next time I'm out that way Gabe).Lobsters on me. Plus, i've said it before and i'll say it again, we have the only single malt whiskey distillery outside Scotland.
*I'm just down the line from Perth, why don't we make it a foresome, lobster sounds waaay good to me!!!
*Wayne McClure is addicted to lobster, let's make it a fivesome.
*Canadian Lobster Fest!!!!What about Your Adirondack Buddies...Jack
*Jack we're already supplying the Moosehead beer for your mountain dew, oh well, what the hell, you're invited too. You got to remember, Cape Breton only has a population of 150,000 for the whole Island so we have to keep it cosy.
*And did i mention the single malt?What about the crab? Or that we are rated the most beautiful island in the world? or the second friendliest (after Fiji-but I think that's fixed)?Need i mention the fiddlers, the ceilidhs (that's "party" to the non-Gaelic speakers), the seascapes, the Highlands, and the moonshine (if ya know who to talk to)?
*JackYou jus' grab one of yer daddy's canoes, swing by Ottawa ( that's a left off the St. Lawrence, just before Montreal) and we'll all climb in and direct you over to Nova Scotia. Maybe bring two canoes, one for the gear 'n beer!!
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Ah, it is so nice to see so many viewpoints from you fellas! However, please know that I am a woman, not a "He". Also, I am building this house as owner/builder. And, this is the only house that I will build, at least for awhile. I considered getting my license, but there has been some stressful times with subs and I have found (without sounding like a female egotist) that some men tend to quit even before bidding because they can't handle taking directions from me or can't stand my attention to detail or "pickiness".
I approached my cabinet-sub and offered to pay 50% of the cost to rebuild a new vanity since I feel that we were both at fault for not communicating enough in detail. He agreed. He, as the professional cabinet builder, should have advised me where the sinks would lay, and he should have asked what size the sinks would be. He also should have diagrammed the vanity and sink profile on the concrete floor. As for me, I should have thought ahead to ask about the sinks' distances. I had trusted that he would design the vanity and advise me of any issues, as he had done with the kitchen cabinets that I designed and the entertainment center that I had designed. As for the blueprint, the sinks are shown at the reasonable distance of 6" from each end. I only changed the vanity by asking for a "large bank of drawers to be installed in the middle". This was where it was left open for the sub to align the sinks.
As for the electrical outlets, I am responsible for moving those. They were placed too high to begin with, so I am moving them to one in the center of the backsplash by code.
I have paid ALL of my subs either the same day as billed or within three days after. Cash is not an issue here.
As for being Henrietta Homeowner, Mr. Tommy B., you sound pretty aggravated and full of hatred toward my situation, if not me. Such a soap opera for you I suppose?
I have enjoyed building this beautiful home. As for my own job, I wasn't employed when I was blessed with this opportunity to build this house for my mother. You see, we lost my father last year. Furthermore, they lost their home to an electrical fire before his death, thanks to a remodel by an unqualified GC. Now THAT, is another story AND I don't wish to see anyone comment on it here. But, I am earning a reasonable sum and saving my mother the money she would have had to pay for a licensed GC.
Something I might add is that I as building this house right next door to me. Talk about having all the time in the world to supervise, explain, check and re-check, and bug my subs! I'm not so bad, just picky. I have learned to live with things, but these cabinets are my most expensive bill yet, more than the concrete and framing! So, I am privy to be picky!
A big Thank You to Rich, for your legal interpretation of my situation, which was exactly what I was looking for.
My tile installer, whom I trust, looked at the vanity and explained that she has seen lots of vanities built this way.
I have decided to live with the vanity, boys. The sinks will be moved slightly in, the alignment with the detail on the front of the cabinet may be off a little, but at this point, I want to move forward, I have a deadline to beat with finishing this house for my mom.
Finally, I am signing up for a drafting course at my local j.c., to transfer to the nearest university next fall for interior design. Thus, my building experience has given me a lot of insight into what I really want to do. GC'ing is just a little too unstable with some of the cruel subcontractor men out there (kind of like you, Mr. Tommy B.)
- Miss Rookie
*P.S. - I would like to add the fact that it will only take me 6 months to build this house, 1710 square feet, fully landscaped and to code. Not bad for a 33-year old gal. ;)
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Are you sure your not joe fusco using a new screen name? I didn't write one thing antagonistic that was directed at you personally. By all means reread my post. I love my job and construction work in general and in fact gave up a lucrative career in public accounting to pursue it. I am happy that your mom let you build her house for you and am sorry for any grief that you have suffered.
I also love women, in fact I am married to one. Perhaps if you remain in the business and engage in competitive bidding with picky or whatever customers, you will understand more of what I wrote. I can guarantee you will find more difficult customers to work for than you mom or yourself.
The name of this game is knowledge, and you just got some relatively cheap, so count you blessings. If you come to this board looking for help, I think its only fair to take what you get. No need to judge me for throwing my two cents out.
Once flamed, but not twice shy,
Tom
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Miss Rookie Builder, If this is the only problem you really had trouble with, you have done better than most "Mr." Rookie Builders!! Rich said exactly what I was thinking, only more eloquently. I was surprised at some of the remarks you received. I have a hunch the responses would have been more sympathetic if this had been their Aunt Minnie !
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Miss Rookie,
You're a real cookie alright...What's with the "Novel?" Joe F doesn't allow this type of post here anymore...And I'm unhappy that you didn't have a barbecue ready for my comments...I feel left out.
Work on the house...try shorter posts and use a mirror next time you're ready to place blame so fast.
But do have a nice day,
J
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AdirondackJack,
I read these threads with great interest, and definitely wouldn't want to intentionately stray from posting guidlines by writing a "novel". So, could you please state what you consider an acceptable length. You trashed Miss Rookie for 38 lines, but didn't mention Rich's 36 lines. Does this mean that the limit is 36 or 37? No wait. I see that Lawrence had 42 and Gabe 48, yet you made no mention of them. Is that because there is a different limit for women, or is it different for rookies? Or maybe it's just the posts you don't like. If that's the case, then I've probably exceeded my limit.
Sorry,
Dave L.
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That's interesting. I refuse to pay until you provide me with a lien release. This way you don't skip town with my money and leave your vendor chasing me in court!
-Rob
*You don't need permission to do a credit check! Larger corporations can be investigated through Dunn & Bradstreet.-Rob
*Congrats "Miss Rookie" sometimes you have to go at subs sideways to get things done. We contractors can be a little blunt at times, but all in all the comments were benign. We as contractors are bombarded by tough demands from clients all year...So I'll apoligise for all. We intended no personal slight or unfair criticisms, you stumbled into a topic that illicits passionate responses from contractors burned previously by persons not as reasonable as you. It usually costs us large sums of money.
*Dave,Your post was to(o) long!@You are now receiving your first warning...b Rambler!J
*Whining or oh my, oh me for more than blip is to(O) long.And Rich, Lawrence, and Gabe....You also get the "Novel" slam!!!!Joe's Guard Dog,J
*Personal credit checks in my town are done after a signature.J
*J,How much does Joe pay?Hope that wasn't to(o) long...Rich Beckman
*I think we all need a beer.
*And the other side of me.....Miss Rookie... You hang in there well and deserve praise as such. Glad you're seeing the light of comprimise....Your newest solutions are worthy....b Come to the Fall Fest and we'll slap you gingerly before we hand you your beer,With compassion,J
*b After reading all this hand me the beer Gabe As one of the few in the area who will sub to a home owner your post is one that I see alot. Most homeowners want to save the bucks but want the subs to handle all the risk. If it ain't got a plan or print we stop and go to time and material mode. This could be a thread all by it's self Pete have been in the same boat that you are in. Lien the sucker send copies to the mall owner(K-Mart?)
*JackStow the sexism, mate. . . Miss Rookie deserves to be slapped with the same vigour as any/all of the rest of them (?). . . you first
*Patrick,I'll let you slap her once for me if you promise to help me slap Joe a dozen extra times and drink all his beer to(O).JPS- Does it seem like the cordial posting comes and goes around with the cycles of the moon or something????
*JackHold onto your hat, i it's(whatever the influence) here again FredL "Ridge vent problem(attn:roofers)" 3/12/99 8:56pmWe should get Bleu and Bean to sit on Joe (he looks a might husky) then we tag-team-slap-him, while drinkin his beer!!b There's no jerk like a knee jerkP.
*b I'm in!!J
*Okay, Miss rookie! I had decided to ignore your post explaining your entrance into the "mens world" of contracting. I'm now jumping in to protest your sexist statement; "Not bad for a 33-year old gal"!What does your gender have to do with a house? Why do you haveto throw that in?Do you hear the boys stating "Not bad for a fat, ugly old man?" ED note: Blue is talking about all the others! Or; "Not bad for a guy who has a tough time programming the VCR!", Or, "Not bad for a guy who can't see his workboots"! ED note: Blue is talking about all the others, not himself!The point is, you cant't let your gender be an excuse for weak building skills, nor does it enhance it! You are perpetuating the "perceived" sexism myth, by attempting to gather additional accolades, using the "look at what poor little old me has accomplished!" routine!If you've done an admirable job, let it stand on it's own merits. Credit hard work, skill, foresight, persistance, etc., but don't try to make your job seem harder 'cause you're a female! It might have been harder, but it was because of your inexperience, not your gender! Remember, we have to deal with all of the same buffons (constructon people as a general lot are often less than professional) every day of our life!The next one(house, remodel, etc.) will surely be easier, but a new set of issues will crop up. It's the learning curve. It'a got nothing to do with gender, however!BluePS Now that you got me fired up, I might revisit your attack on Tommy, I didn't think he "enlightened you enough"
*I'd like to take issue with some terminolgy and what it impliesi " I would like to add the fact that it will only take me 6 months tob build this house,". . . From what I read you didn'ti buildanything, youi hadit built, by others. Give credit where credit is due, and stop taking credit for what you didn't do. Standing around issuing orders, scheduling work and phoning for materials is easy, even i "for a 33-year old gal"! Love to see those photo spreads with the proud owner and her dog on the new deck with nary a sign, nor reference of the guy what built it!!!!
*Miss Rookie is a prime example of why I won't frame for homeowners, or Rookie builders! I made the mistake again last year (will I ever learn?). I framed a house for my lumber man! I figured that with all his field knowledge, he would be a decent risk. WRONG! It was easily the worst house of the year! And this guy is very sharp,and professional,and it was his third house, and a duplicate of one already built!New builders suck! They are a drain on my income, and I already have too many holes to plug!The lumber man and I are still friends, but I told him take his plans elsewhere!Blue
*Patrick, and Blue,Twice the beer...better I'll reserve a keg truck at your pleasure for the FHB Lakeside Fest...And all the milkbones that can be had in the Metropolis of Lake George.And by the by I can definitely see my shoes...playing Vball weekly with the youngans keeps one in top shape.J
*Awright, you thnk I better start designing my flameproof suit of blue armor?Blue
*Very nice Blue...I think we just catch him in the "you kneel behind him, while he spouts off to me, just before we get to the push and shove to have room for the inflated chest act scene..."...Very early in the play I might ad.J
*Patrick,Just started hockey with my young nephews that recently moved into the area...Great fun with them and I'm amazed at how well the little seven year old skates...We now have and ongoing checkfest everytime I'm at his home...He's gonna be tough on the boards when he hits thirteen and they unleash his rights to slam others.J
*Jack i Does a beer cubed=KEG ?? Hockey man, hockey. . . keeps you in shape and you keep up on thelatest slapping techniques!!! b No charge checking!!! -P
*
Hello again. My replies are: 1) AdirondackJ - Blame is a two-way mirror in my case. The cabinet maker placed all the blame on me. You just heard my side first. 2) Blue - Talk about sexist! You stated "Pay like the big boys do" earlier. What about the big girls too? What few female GCs there are in my area know how tough it is to work with men in this field. I AM proud to have accomplished GCing (not actually constructing) this house AS A WOMAN because this business is predominantly run by men. I know bragging doesn't compliment "poor little old me" yet I hate to say it, but I am admired by most of my subs for handling this job. And yes, I am taking the stance of "poor little me" simply because that's me. And, some of my subs do realize the gender difference. It comes out in their help with carrying a simple ladder for me, in nailing extra things for me rather than me having to, in cleaning up out of politeness even though they see my shop-vac with me. I've been winked at, stared at and teased. Put this on your learning curve, please. 3) Tommy B - Don't belittle me as "Henrietta Homeowner" and state "he who builds for himself has an idiot for a client" if you are not prepared for a flame back. Those "weasel homeowners" who try to save money is another story, not related to me. I justified that I am here to manage the project and my subs, this is MY JOB. I am glad you are married to a woman too. Last, 4) Patrick M - If I read you correctly, there is not one photo taken of me on the jobsite. You know why? Because I have the camera. All phases have been photographed, not just for documentation, but for a special photo album I am going to present to my mother after she moves in. By the way, one photo of my framer setting trusses aided me when I had to confront him with a big mistake he made, something he chose not to reveal: he cut off the truss ends and changed the front fascia of my roofline. I caught the difference later, and the photo showed the trusses were supposed to frame beyond the wall. He did make the correction, then slapped me with a $200 bill for his earlier advisements and trips to correct his errors. Know what? I felt threatened by him and had to pay him or he wouldn't leave my jobsite. How do ya like that? And my hubby was not available to help me. Poor little old me!
*
Way to go Miss Rookie! I wondered if you were going to answer the charges. Nice defense, however, the prosecution still has the chance to rebut.
Miss Rookie, I mean't no sexist statement when I used the term "pay like the big boys". I do apologize for the misunderstanding, I'll have to re-think that old familiar phrase: how 'bout "Pay like the big contractors do". That statement is/was what I intended. I simply goofed with my verbage. It's one of those old sayings that encompasses a paragraph's worth of words in one sentence. I won't make that mistake again!
What I was trying to get you to understand is that the business of house building is sexless. When I walk onto the lot, I am walking into a challenge that is not about sex. Houses do not have a gender, and that is what house building is all about!
I would frame a house for a neutered dog, if they could give me a decent set of plans, and get the materials out there! I judge every contractor on their ability to deliver me 3 things: the plans (information that tells me what I need to do), the materials, and the check! I'm trying to earn a living and feed my family. I don't give a hoot about what is in your pants, your sexual preferences, what you drive, your political leanings, etc.!
I do see it as a sign of weakness, that you would try to enhance your effort, by throwing in an irrelevent issue! If you told me that you overcame a poor grade, or a beauracracy that was trying to defeat you, I'd be impressed. I refuse to be impressed by your gender difficulties! They are in your mind!
Now, you tell me that you are impressed with tradespeople (ED NOTE: Blue is learning fast, notice the politically correct term that has replaced the ancient word "tradesmen"!) that are carrying your ladder, doing simple nailing chores that aren't part of their job description, and doing unnecessary tidying?!!! Does the word patronizing come to mind?
Would those same people do those things for me, if I was in your shoes (I'm size 9 1/2E)?
I'm always willing to be sociable, and help out on the job-site, when the extra hands will make a tough job easy, but I'm not going to tote your ladder and fawn over you, or anyone else! Well, almost nobody! Hey, I'm human!
You've been winked at, stared at, and teased. Which of these acts intimidated you? You were the GC, and had the ability to set the atmosphere. You failed, when you didn't address the winkers, and the starers, and the ladder carriers, and the "extra nailers", and the "Molly Maidsmen", and whatever other nonsense you allowed! Teasing, verbal jousting, friendly communication makes the job easier. If it crosses a line, deal with it!
It's a tough world out there, and you gotta be tough, to swim with the big b...oops, ...sharks!
You make your own bed...
I rest my case,
Blue
*I'll make a lawyer out of you yet Blue, but still a little way to go. You make points but too wordy. Condense and you will be more effective. Getting there buddy!
*Miss Rookie,I hereby give you theb Class A Number 1,Whiner Award, Emeritus For Life"J
*Miss RookieYou did b notread me correctly. My jobs are often well photographed too, with nary a sign of me in them because I too am holding the camera. What I was refering to was i after the job is done publicity type shots one sees in home improvement mags and such. But the thrust of my comentary had to do with your "having built"(?) your project!!!!i Carrying my own ladder!!!-Patrick
*BLUE, If houses do not have a gender, then how come so many of them are such a -itch (witch ?) to work on? Stephen
*. . . cuz !
*Miss rookie,don't think the whistle's & winks are just for you & you alone. Trying to get subs back to a project owned by an individual with the oposite sexual preferance (pc enoiugh?) and fairly agressive is also a difficult situation.Gabe, Blues execive use of verbage seems a little short for a lawyers writing.
*
O.K., alright. . . I apologize to each and every one of you for my lack of understandment of some of your viewpoints. But, I do accept the WHiner Award with a big smile! Blue, you crack me up with your condescending, wordy responses. However, please note that "beauracracy" is really spelled "bureaucracy". You misread my prior message, I do not admire my subs for assisting me because I am female. I stated that they admire me for gc'ing the job because I am female. And don't speak for them or tell me that it's in my head because their comments were genuine. Two issues have formed in our discussion: 1. the connotation of what I meant by "gal"; 2. the sexism behind the winks, stares and molly maidsmen. What assistance my subs have given me is not anywhere close to "nonsense", but simply professional results in our working relationship. Perhaps it was patronizing for me to view the assistance as attention to me as a female. Oh well, I guess I get freebies 'cuz I'm so cute! Yep, my subs would not have done such things for you, you are an old, big footed man!
A-Jax, oops, I mean A-Jack. . . thank you for the short Award!
*A-Jack, I see you posted for a forum for framer subs under GC's. Is this related to my framer's situation?
*
Miss Rookie,
No whining in your last post....keep posting such niceties and I'll be forced to take back your trophy....
A-Jax at the job....Cleanin up around here pretty good these days....I get pretty busy from here on for six months or so and hope you all keep up the fun and good work without too much need of me...
A-Jax Man
*I see you're finally getting real! Welcome to the show!I'm very impressed that you stated "I..get freebies "cuz I'm so cute!" Now that's real! And I'm jealous!You see, nobody has ever done anything for me, 'cause I'm ugly! And, obviously stupid (you caught my spelling inablility quickly!) Sorry I seemed to be condescending, you also misread my statements (maybe we have a lot in common after all). I was just trying to get you to appreciate your success, for nothing more than; it is a task worth appreciating. Successfully GC'ing something good is very rewarding, regardless of the obstacles.The obstacles are there, in different forms, for everyone!Anyways, send your real pic to [email protected] and I'll see if we agree on your alleged cuteness. If in fact, you're not so cute, I'll admit that the other workers carried your ladder for legitimate reasons. Blue
*
Blue, I notice that a lot of the guys (and you too? I don't remember) raved about how they loved to do the work for the ladies who gave em cookies and such, would that be a "legitimate" reason for molly-coddling? How about just being nice and professional. Perhaps Miss Rookie said thanks more often, I don't know...
Miss Rookie, Blue and AJ arn't so bad, you just have to toss em around sometimes. Come to the fest and we'll slap em both around some, and drink thier beer to boot! (note J&B, that I did NOT say from a boot, so keep your 9.5E's to yourself!)
Off to get the CCG (cheif comotion generator)
Lisa
*Could not help but laugh at your e-mail address Blue. Me thinks Miss Rookie knew what you meant to type. If not, maybe we will see if there is a limit to the number of messages per thread.Chris
*
Watch it, Miss Rookie Builder! A couple of days ago, I posted (on another BBS) a comment about some guy's atrocious spelling. I've been getting slapped around pretty hard. Eff yow kin reed dis, tel me wotz rong wit ma spelin,!
*It's not what you think chris! That is my real addy. My name was taken and I had to settle for that misspelled version. Blue
*Oh man! I was scrolling through the posts and came across this old thread that I posted quite some time ago. To my surprise, it is still alive and thriving like no other. I've really got to see it break 100 msgs. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the subject of this thread anymore but what the heck. It's still afloat.Hey Miss Rookie Builder, Before you get too busy pickin' on people's spelling, you may want to know that "understandment" is not a word. I suppose you're just too cute to have the fellas here point that out to you.In closing let me leave all of you with this final thought. Man should not be judged merely on the length of his thread. hehe.Long live me!(and you guys too)Pete Draganic
*Understandment is too a word! It might not work anywhere else, but around a bunch of tradespersons, its a bigword! Only the cerebralist use it!By the way, what does it mean?Blue
*well it's my understandment that "it" is a singular pronoun used in place of a neuter or indefinite pronoun. Cerebralist on the other hand could be a figment of Blues Cerebellum and is an example of terminology invented by proletariats like us. :)Speaking of neutering, after 20 years of marriage my wife has sent me to the vet. Still walking funny.
*just breking the hundred barrierBlue
*Pete, i still can't get over the 14,000$ pricetag for your cheapo client! It seems astonoshingly low!Blue
*
Also be sure to let the legal dept at K-Mart know what you are going to do with this bupkis - if he will stiff you, he's probably stiffing k-mart for the rent as well.
*
Oh fellas, just when things seem to be running smooth someone throws a wrench right into the works. I am finishing building a fingernail salon inside a Super K-mart, for a customer who was referred to me by another customer who I've built 3 other shops for. This new customer wanted everything cheap cheap cheap. I ran the numbers and gave him a beautiful shop for an inexpensive price of $14,125. That included demo, build-out, electrical and plumbing plus plans and all the dicking around with K-mart Corp, which is no treat. I will post pictures of it once I finish the sign on Tuesday. Anyhow, I installed a solid panel, thin slat aluminum roll down door (8x8) in the entranceway. He now insists that I change it to a see-thru link type grille door at my expense of about 1400 bucks or he will not pay me. This guy is the type who would stop in during the job and complain about the placement of little things like can you move this outlet or move that wall over 6 inches. Of course these requests were being made near the finish point. I would then have to remind him that this is how it is on the plans you reviewed and gave the ok on. He's one of those guys who was never impressed with anything there. Now mind you that the Ohio and Pennsylvania regional manager was there recently and stopped in to tell me how great the store looked. He asked if I did the one across town, I said no, he said he didn't think so because it was nowhere near as nice as this one. Everyone loves the place but this @%&@#! customer. I am convinced that he just wants a reason to screw me. What to do, what to do. I don't know if I really need responses from all of you but I just needed to bitch.
Thanks,
Pete Draganic
*Pete if the hair is standing up in the back of your neck then there's a good chance that you're about to be stiffed.Make sure all of your documents are in order, have an independant witness (if you have an engineer friend, use the favour)present as you do the final inspection. Make sure that you have the site fully documented with photographs taken by someone else who can testify as to the authenticity of the pictures and there location.When you hand him the final bill, ask him specifically if there's a problem with the bill.If he says no, you have to wait until the due date of your invoice to react.If he starts to complain about things you know is bull, don't waste a second of your time, react immediately. Put a lien on and protect your money.Check lien act in your jurisdiction and if you can name the owners of the mall on the lien then do so. If this is the case you will get action much faster then if you can't.Today would be a good day to sit down with trusted friends and review all of your papers. Have your friends play devil's advocate to explore all the holes if any and then fill them.Good luck.
*Sympathies. What a pain!I hope you're worrying too much and he'll pay, grudingly. Stick your guns on the door thing, but be nice about it no matter how rude he is to you, no matter how much unfair criticism he heaps on. Be firm, payment is expected per the contract. You know you did a good job, no need to argue with a random bozo on that. After this isn't about being friends, it's about getting PAID.If he's serious that he plans to breach the contract unless you make his last minute change, you may be entitled to stop cold where things are now, make sure he knows that. Quick call to a lawyer would be a good idea, every jurisidiction has different rules.
*This will probablly get moved by sean to the bussiness cat. but this may be a good time to ask ourselves about our contracts. I learned the trade from two very good carpenters who from time to time would get burned by a bad customer. Often the point of contention was either an extra, change order, or missed comunication. Since being on my own I have tried to be very specific with contracts in terms of everything: scope of work materials used and payment schedules so far so good.One of the things I do is every job proposal comes from a template which may have more items than a particular job requires but often it reminds me of an issue which should be resolved prior to agreeing to the work/project.So what are you experiences good bad or otherSorry for your troubles Pete and this may not help this item but maybe we can protect ourselves in the future
*While not in the contracting business, I have been in a substantial manufacturing business as an owner, and am still in the service business as an owner. If someone wants it cheap, and right now, most of the time they are going to look for a way to stiff you. If you can put a lien on, give him an invoice with 10 days to pay or whatever your contract says, and on day 11 put a lein on the place. This is the part of life that is no fun, but there are merits to having a reputation for being scrupulously honest, fair, and not afraid to nail someone to the wall who does not reciprocate. Oh, and if you change to door, get the entire cost up front and a generous margin. No one else will do it better and he will feel better for it. You will be surprised how often people like this will pay more than normal.DennisOne of the posts is right in that this is not personal - it is business. Be nice, be fair, be polite, but don't blink.
*Pete, I'm just in the middle of a similar situation, and it motivated me to write in more severe payment terms to my contracts. Seems this guy won't pay me $25,000 owing since October because he decided he wanted $550 worth of eavestroughing put on after all, despite the change order stating otherwise way back when. Here's the section of my new contracts relating to payment, for what it's worth:Terms: All payments are due in full within five business days of receipt of invoice. Work may be stopped on project if payment is not received when due. If work is suspended due to non-payment, we may have to re-schedule any continuation of the work in accordance with other projects. Any payments not made within fifteen business days of receipt of invoice, or any NSF cheques, will be subject to an immediate collection service charge of 10%, and daily compound interest charged at a rate of three percent (3%) per month as of invoice date, unless valid reason for non-payment is received in writing within 30 days of invoice. Non-payment for reasons of defective or incomplete work to be only for the amount equal to the value of the work in dispute. Unpaid accounts may be referred for collection and legal action if not paid within 30 days of valid invoice, and all costs and expenses associated with such action will be paid for by owner, including contractor's time and all legal fees. Contractor may cancel this contract if any payment is not received as scheduled. If contract is cancelled for any reason, payment for all work completed and all associated costs incurred by contractor will be payable in full immediately, and contractor will not be held liable for any and all costs incurred after cancellation, including costs to complete the project by other means.just hoping this doesn't sound too severe to the honest ones... what do you think?Ross
*Ouch! (A homeowner.) I would hesitate to sign this, but most homeowners probably wouldn't even notice. The punitive clauses -- the 10% collection fee and 3% per month interest (that would over 40% per annum) -- seem a little shaky -- was this written by counsel? "Non-payment for reasons of defective or incomplete work to be only for the amount equal to the value of the work in dispute" is a very good point. Do you guys require half up front + progress payments?
*I swore I would never get into one of these business threads again, but here I go. If I were in this business, before I wrote an estimate, before I took my time to make an estimate, I would send the potential client a reference sheet with permission for a credit check. If they refuse, next customer. How many of you can get $10,000 to $20,000 worth of materials from a supplier with out a credit check? I am sure that most of you have noticed that there is a shortage of skilled people to hire. The ball is in your court and while this does not mean you should gouge, there is no reason not to be paid IF you can and do perform your crafts in a reasonable manner. Like seems to attract like and an honest customer will not be offended, the rest will look for someone they truly deserve. Dennis
*Pete, what's the chances of him getting a certificate of occupancy at this stage of completion? See to it that he can't and Stop Work. Get paid to date, and negotiate the balance/new door thing. A lien may or may not get you ANY money... "well things aren't working out, I'm closing" will get you what? Used outlets? Get the bucks for the majority of your work NOW.You can always be a nice guy later. This "@%&@#" is looking to turn a profit on your materials and labor... something for nothing. Yep, they're out there. How'd you like to negotiate w/the mall to run a nail salon? Remind the owner, he should be dispensing lacquer and enamel and NOT a shellacing.
*Pete,If all that fails, tell him you got a mate who's Italian and not to give you a hard time 'cause they carry sharp knives!!!
*Ross,I don't know what jurisdiction you're located but in most that I'm familiar with your contract contains enough illegal demands to make it useless in a court of law.Interest rates are too excessive for one thing and your agreement is only one sided. A consumer who would sign your contract as written would have a case for insanity.There is no such thing as an iron clad contract that is longer than required. The longer it is and the more clauses it contains the easier it is to find fault with it.If bad faith exist with one of the parties to a contract then regardless of what is written, you will have a problem.We have all experienced people who tried or were successful in setting us up for non payment.What we all have to do, is make sure our hands are clean when enter the water.From the original request, I understood that a formal plan was used to do the work and a work order was used. All that can be done at this stage is to ensure that from the contractors perspective, all work was done to the plans and specifications and that any and all changes have been done with a change order or written direction signed by the client.If you have no paperwork to protect yourself, then when and if you end up in court, you are face with a quantum merit case and you have to prove the value of your claim.So the importance of fully documenting your work cannot be overstated. As built drawings and a legal contract with proper follow up change orders will cost you time as you do the work but will save you a fortune when the shit hits the fan.This post should be in the business section but is important enough to pay attention to here also.
*Mark,Luck has it that I myself am Sicilian on my mother's side and Croation on my Father's side. Not a mild mix of bloods. There was a time when I might just beat the living crap out of a guy like this but with age and experience, wisdom and reserve do come. All this aside, I really am a likeable, social guy...just ask me.I am always cordial but firm with customers and am known to give a number of freebies while on the job. I am honest and upfront with all. Even if I were a liar, my memory is too bad to be effective at it. I never screw people over as it will always return in spades but I really, really hate to be screwed myself.This whole non-paying customer thing has only happened to me about 3 times in the past 12 yrs. I have always been able to work it out. I refuse to lay down and die. I figure with this one, I'll notify him upon total completion, allow 5 days for final payment in full and make it known that after 5 days, I will begin charging late fees and interest as well as placing liens on everything I can from this guys business to his dog. Its just the aggravation I would much rather do without. As for detailed contracts. It seems no matter how much I try, there is always a number of things I miss. It is nearly impossibele to cover everything to a T. Although I did add to this contract a clause stating that "all finishes and fixtures to be selected by contractor".Thank you all for your help, advice and support. We really all got to get together sometime, preferrably an FHB sponsored/financed gathering (hint hint).Pete Draganic
*AndrewHave you ever carefully examined all those other agreements you sign (medical offices,credit cards car loans) some I have seen are as severe. As for payment schedules I try not to get more than a week or two behind in labor and generally I do not pay my suppliers until the client has paid. I figure If I am going to court over not getting paid I'll take some company with me. If I am ordering special items for a project I do seek a downpayment on these orders. That seems to negate changes on down the road because someone's sister in law saw a different color one at lowes.
*Speaking of examining agreements to be signed, I came accross an agreement that a video store wanted signed so that a card would be issued. One of the paragraphs gave the store the right to enter my home to retrieve the tape! I didn't sign, but they always had plenty of customers.Rich Beckman
*Where are we getting together, at the zoo?Blue
*Pete, just curious. but why did you take this job? If I get a real bad hit from a prospective client, I let 'em stay that way, prospective. You may want to work on a screening process.Some of my clients just have to posture. If I like their project, and they pass the screening, I've seen enough nature shows on PBS to realize it's just the way they do business, it's the way they do their lives. I can work with that.They posture, I pull out OUR contract. I've NEVER been stiffed when I had one.A great businessman, I am not (just ask Mrs. Bucksnort), so don't get me wrong Pete, but you don't make any mention of these pieces of paper. Please tell us you have them.If I were you, I wouldn't put that sign yet.
*Gabe & Andrew, thanks for your thoughts... no, I haven't passed this contract clause by my lawyer, it was written in a fit of "the next s.o.b. is gonna pay" mood... still, I found out from my last problem customer that all the extra hours I put in trying to collect when I could have been doing paying work, along with my lawyer's fees, probably wouldn't be payable by the customer when all was said and done. I'm not in the business of lending money, and if for some reason I end up waiting for payment then my bank, subcontractors and suppliers all charge me huge fees and lose faith in me. I have no money to fall back on, but even if I was independently wealthy why would I lend my money to a customer, because that's exactly what it is when I pay my guys, purchase materials on my accounts, then don't get paid according to the agreed-upon schedule. Okay, I'll lower the interest to 2 1/2%, but the point is, I never, ever want to have to charge interest, I just want to get paid on time.
*Only the uninformed will buckle to threats -- jerks really know the ropes, just ask any deadbeat how bankruptcy works. Pay for legal consultation -- just now, you have $25k + interest at stake! -- that will show you the most efficient means for getting through these situations. A contract written out of (justified) anger will do you no good in court, and might help the defendant to paint -you- as the cutthroat bad guy -- remember, he may well counterclaim against you! I was trying to be polite, but Gabe is absolutely right.(Plus, a reasonable interest rate, consequential damages, or liquidated damages clause may well get you more money in the end.) There is no such thing as the perfect contract because it is a useless attempt at one-size-fits-all.A real contract is supposed to be the written sumation of negotiation between two parties at arms' length. A one-sided contract, where the person who wrote the contract gets every advantage with no return concessions to the signer, is often no contract at all.Here's to avoiding litigation. Caveat builder. Good luck all!
*Pete,I agree with George. At least for starters. If memory serves me, you also operate in Ohio. Small claims has a limit of $2500.00 in Ohio & this is where you start. Tell this "person" that non payment will result in small calims court. (Chances are they won't be able or willing to take time away to show up, an automatic win). It sounds like you should have no trouble winning. If they don't pay the judgement then & there, it's now time to get nasty. Find a land shark (lawyer) and give them the judgement. They can go after the enemies assets, the dog you leined and any other way to find the money. Plus they go after them for all the legal fees. This last part is wat you really point out. Most people don't want to be paying off a judgment for several years.If you don't have a clause in the contract that states all changes MUST be accompined with a change order, add one.
*Yes! I do read them now (to the irritation of the clerks). I have seen any number of illegal clauses recently, some quite breathtaking in their audacity. It's tough because you're often not talking to someone with authority to change or eliminate terms. Sometimes I cross out the term and have both parties initial; more often i sign to illegal terms knowing that they're meaning less and wanting to get a (brief but convenient) transaction over with.Some things to look at very very closely and take seriously: credit card agreements, leases, insurance agreements, loans...
*.....now Pete I'm reminded of a saying my Granny had, " you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar ". Just a thought, could you " go along "with the so and so and get a new door measured up ( get the owner on site when the rep measures ) so he's seen it done, ( hopefully he'll assume you are going to fit it,tell him theres a manufacturing lead time of a month, get the money out of him and tell him you'll come back and fit the door once it's ready. ( you can too as long as he pays for it ) Is this too devious???
*I am not a contractor, I am someone who is building a residential house for the first time. My cabinet sub wrote a bid, and I have not signed it. I paid a 50% deposit. The cabinets have been installed accordingly, except for one thing. The master vanity was designed with vague description between the two of us. After it was installed, I noticed the two sink bowls are at the outer edges of the vanity. I had requested that a bank of drawers be installed in the middle section of the vanity. I expected the bowls would still be at least 6 inches from each end. The cabinet sub designed it with 23 inch sink cabinets on each end, which means the bowls sit 1 inch from each end. After expressing that I am not accepting this vanity as is, to move the bowls toward the center so there is at least 4 to 6 inches on either end of the vanity from each bowl, he refused to rebuild it, stating that he built it correctly. The plan shows the sink bowls situated at 6 inches from each end. In addition, if we were to keep this vanity with the bowls 1 inch from each end, the electric outlets are directly above each sink. I pointed to him that these outlets were already installed when he came out to check his measurements, that he should have taken this into consideration as well. And, the plumbing is located more toward the center of the vanity as well. To move the sinks inward with the existing vanity will throw the alignment of the doors off with each sink. To leave the sinks where they are would allow water to drip down the side and no elbow room on the other sink area (there's a wall there). I don't feel like I have to pay and accept this vanity. I would like to withold the money from his last payment and hire someone else to finish the job. I plan to give this sub one more chance to correct this problem, then I am going to write a letter to him and post a complaint with the contractors' state board. You guys are contractors. Please advise me what I can do.Thanks,-Miss Rookie
*Miss RookieYou have a problem that unless is solved quickly will cost both parties more monie than the vanity is worth.1. The contract (Quote) was accepted when you gave the 50% deposit.2. You indicated that the description of the vanity was "vague". Which leaves too much room for interpretations.3. You also indicated that you noticed the problem after it was completely installed, which would indicate further that there was confusion as to the final product.4. The shifting of sinks by 4" will not change the problem with the outlets being too close to the sinks. It will only have one or the other offset.I think you get my point that, because of the grey areas, this is a lose lose situation.Given the situation, my advise would be to sit down and both of you be ready to compromise because in a litigation, both of you will lose and 2 lawyers will be happy.
*Nice call Gabe. JonC
*O.K., Everyone missed this one:PETE-- MAKE SURE TO THANK THE PEOPLE THAT REFERED THIS *%#&! TO YOUMaybe charge 'em a little extra next time they want you to build something . . .Glad the decimal is to the left when I get screwed,Dan Morrison
*Gabe the diplomat, is right on. "The Customer" is not going to be happy, no matter what, so it's time to decide how much unhappiness that he is willing to live with. The easy obvious fixes are not satisfactory, and thers is no reason to live with a vanity setup that isn't right. BUT, the plan detailing is not specific enoough. A detailed architectual plan would have eliminated this type of error, but since you saved the architectual cash, it's time to spend some of it. Find a compromise with the installer and pay him to do it right. You'll be happier in the long run.Take care not to slander the guy. I've been called an idiot for things that I've done that seemed normal to me, but was different to the payer. The funny thing is, I've been called an idiot for doing it the other way!Some peolple want the space between the bowls to be maximized, others want the space on the edge to be more. It is a personal preference that obviously is important to you, and you didn't let them know. That's one of the prices that first time GC's pay. In our sub, the superintendent spray paints the preferences on the rough subfloor with flourescent paint. Locations that are important are dimensioned. Very few mistakes are made with this communication method!Did you take the time to mark your personal dimesion needs on the plan, or the sub floor? If not, you have left it uup to the installers, and you must take the blame.Don't be one of those types that need to see it built, before you can decide! If you are, pay like the big boys do! Blue
*This is way out of my usual area of interest,but,is it possible that the sinks can not be moved closer to the center because the bowls would intersect the center drawers? Good Luck to both parties involved, Stephen
*Steve, two problems with your suggestion, and I think he mentioned that He's already nixed that Idea.The bowls would be limited to the edge of the 24" unit. You probably would have close to 4-6" if you simply scooted them over. He objects to the aethestics: the bowls and fixtures would not cnetered on the cabinet detailing below. For some people, that is vey important. For me, due to my close relation with baboons, I wouldn't hesitate. In fact, I had to remodel my existing kitchen to accomodate a dishwasher, and I pushed my new huge sink offcenter to the window above, and the cabinet below!Gosh, how I live to GC for myself! It was the simplest solution to a huge conflict! NObody has ever noticed it, and no paying customer would accept it!Blue
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$14,000 sounds cheap?? Thats only because it is cheap!! This was a job referred to me by another customer I have done a number of the same type of shops for. I am in rather well with those people but this guy has proven to be the exception to the rule.
BTW, I got a call from this non-paying customer's attorney today. The message he left haad absolutely nothing to do with what is really going on. i can't wait to see what story this bum customer fed the attorney. And I almost forgot...the atorney caled me from "the legal aid society" which is for folks with no money who need legal help. Oh oh.
Finally grasping understandment of the cerebralists,
Pete Draganic