Not completely happy…what should I do?
OK Guys and gals, a little question for ya:
So I’m building this house…doing just about everything. But I bought my cabinets and countertops. In the showroom, there’s a handful of corian tops they made…probably 10 or so. I can’t find a seem anywhere in any of them. Of course, in mine, I see the seam plain as day for about 6″, then it disappears.
OK, the island has a butcher block top…5’x8′. They put two pieces together…I can’t tell where (unless I measure)…but it looks really nice.
But for some reason, contrary to what they said, they cut out for the slide in stove…and cut too deep! So now they need to put the 2″ piece or so back into the butcherblock top. probably no big deal…as they did such a nice job with the initial assembly of two pieces.
So, my question is, what do I do? Say? Do I just accept this seam in the Corian forever? I like the shop, I like the folks, I stopped there very often…ALWAYS said how I liked the seamlessness of Corian and went that way instead of Granite…and now I have a seam!
One other thing…I was always told they’d scribe and within a few days the top would be done and installed. Well, I waited 2 weeks. For about 4 months, I told them my goal was to have Thansgiving Dinner in the place. I had them scribe in Early Novemember, giving them over 2 weeks to get it together. Apparently between hunting season and another job that they did were the customer kept adding to the list…my stuff was done in a hurry and installed Wednesday, day before Thanksgiving.
So I bitch to my wife about how everyone seems to be letting me down (applicances were lost, excavator never dug my drainage ditches (want to speed skate down my driveway??), the list goes on) and yet I always seem to be a nice guy and just let it all slide…You know BOHICA….Bend Over Here It Comes Again!
Comments? Thoughts?
Seems to me to fix the Corian is NOT easy…like a major redo…and they’ll crap about that. The butcherblock should be fine…what about down the road in a year or two after the stove has thermally cycled it so many times???
Thanks.
One more thing…it seems to me, in this business, as the client, you get:
1. What you pay for (and these are good folks at a good shop)
2. What you demand.
They didn’t finish sanding the top, no finish on it, left the place in a mess, etc. All the little things that in the million dollar house job they’d never do…but they did on mine…because I’m a nice guy, in the midst of other work, and a DIYer?
Replies
I was in the countertop buisness for more years then I care to admit. Unfortunately your supplier should have said "no" instead of rushing and doing a bad job. The holidays always were the pits working 7 days a week 12+ hours per day.
They should know the difference between a good and bad job so ask them nicely to make the job right after all the rush is over. It'll be another construction inconvience but a couple of weeks wait is better then looking at a bad job for years.
I am with you on that one. I was a remodeling with anopther company for years and I would always see what they did'nt want the client to see. and if the client did catch on, I was told to make them think that this is the standard M.O. of the business. One of the later jobs I did with them included a Montelli (corian) counter top. It was a deep black color and the installer said that he was going to use clear silicone on the backsplashes because the color was unavailable. It looked like sh*%. It was actually a deep blue. Also, a seam was pretty obvious. The client bitched and the guy came out and re-did a seam but it was still apparent. and the clear caulk was terrible. To this day, I still say that there HAS to be colored caulk for that color Montelli. Anyway, I was behind the client. And I was semi-freinds with the Montelli guy. We did many jobs together. But the client paid a premium priceand should get was was promised. Montelli sales should have said,"in this color there might be a slight prob with the seam showing." The is always the option of getting a discount on the product if you can live with the seam. I have learned to avoid extreme statements Like "perfect" "forever" "never" especially in writing. If you arent happy, tell them. The butcher block is a definite Boo-Boo. No question there. Good luck
Thanks guys.
Let me ask, as my experience is limited to this single shop...in Corian, you shouldn't be able to see the seam at all, right? I mean, if there's a pattern, the pattern will "jump" or something. I have Matterhorn...so if the "speckles" were halved, it'd be one thing. But since it is a line I can see...
Is there any way of fixing this without redoing the whole thing? Sanding, buffing, anything like that? I would think not...but I don't know.
Do you suspect I'd have problems with the butcher block piece? It's the piece immediately behind the top of the stove...I suspect there might be some venting below...and wonder if the heat cycles will impact the glue of their "fix" more than the rest of the top.
It's funny...becasue I shared with these guys (family business...so guys and gals) all my other turmoils...and they always said I should stand behind what I want...
I need to say something...I guess I hate having to confront others. Hmmm, maybe that's why I do my own work? LOL I can live with my mistakes...
Thanks.
Take heart, you are experiencing the anguish of being the contractor. Bumps in the road can and do happen. A good contractor with some luck can usually pickout the bs subs from those that constantly produce good timely work. You were probably bumped by a contractor that pays his bills and is always ready when promised. He gives the shop more business than you. You should be commended if these things are isolated occurances in your home building experience. What I mean is, a couple of nightmares on a custom house, nice job.
To your real question, I too had a slide in stove "here's the spec sheet" hole problem. The top manuf. suggested buying the optional "back skirt" to cover the wasn't even close to the spec sheet cutout. My first dealings with this reputable supplier. They grudingly made up another top to the customer's satisfaction. On another kitchen, a better top fabricator (family operation) couldn't believe he had made up a white laminate when he had spec'd some tan sand pattern. He would do nothing less make up a new top in the right color. Guess which one got the next and several more top jobs.
I agree with the opinions expressed here. You deserve a good seam, if you aren't anal so much that you use a magnifying glass, good shops produce good seams in all but a couple goofball patterns. The butcherblock patch if it is close to invisible (using the drop from the mistake will be dimensionally smaller that it was before the sawblade) and lasts as long as the top, then why not. You give a little on the bb and they refab that end of the corian. And no big mess left this time, tough but not impossible.
Again, welcome to the contracting business, you'll do better next time. Remember, it's not a part-time job. You want to work and contract..........oh man, a glutton for punishment.
Best of luck.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 12/5/2002 10:36:38 PM ET by calvin
You see the seam in yours..because it's yours! I can't see it from here....so I can't say if it's right or wrong...but corian...like all other construction materials.....isn't perfect. Nothing is......and in remodeling.....most isn't.
You'll find all the mistakes ya want...just keep looking with the magnifying glass.
And now..the butcher blook...which looks fine....is getting constant worry over what might happen in 5 yrs.
Not to jump to conclusions...but I see a theme developing.
Maybe ya have problems...maybe ya don't......but no remodel is perfect...it's an imperfect world......built out of imperfect materials.....and most of it built into imperfect houses.
You know this shop...why not just calmly ask the owner to come over and answer your questions? This stuff isn't real difficult.
You sure you didn't push a bit for them to "hurry up and get it done before T-Giving"?
Sounds like the mighta done what you asked..and asked..and asked for.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Hmmm. Since I was on the schedule for a month ahead of time, was reassured numerous times no problems, and they scribed over two weeks before...I guess I'm not sure if I should feel like I pushed. They shared how they spent 3 days in a deer stand....But I digress.
Unfortunately no need for a magnifying glass...LOL. I don't think I am THAT anal.
At one point I even told them not to hurry and make mistakes...I'd rather have it late...
I have spent hours, literally, over the past months looking for seams in their shop on other tops. It became somewhat of a habit when I stopped to ask a few questions to snoop around and just search for them. Never could find one, and even after looking underneath so I knew where they were, still couldn't see it. The fellow who does the work does a great job...that's one reason I'm torn here. He's massively underpaid...and I know he'll take the blunt of anythign I say...I don't like that. The owner is CHEAP...OK, I'll stop now.
Contrary to how it sounds, I'm not trying to be defensive. I guess I am just trying to get a feeling for what you folks would feel is fair and unfair.
It does irk me though when people promise one thing...and then just don't seem to come through. I understand things happen...this is construction, not sub-micron engineering, schedules slip, etc. I know my schedules at work have all slipped too. Just trying to feel it out.
I also appreciate it is my project, my house, not theirs. I have lost huge amounts of sleep...not so much worrying, but doing the work and doing my real job (I'm the astronomer...) Something had to go...seems like it was sleep! LOL
Hmm, need to get me a digital camera and I could show you that seam. No, wouldn't require 6x's optical zoom either unfortunately.
They (the fabricators) have shared with many a number of the horror stories from other folks. I don't think I come even close...and sometimes I wonder if I just accept something that, as someone mentioned, they know was a little sub-par. It goes back to my second item on the building business...you get what you demand. Not with everyone...but sometimes I think folks will say if they're happy, I'm happy. No?
Edited 12/5/2002 11:10:06 PM ET by PIRGERBRUCE
My point......we can't tell from here.
May be a bad seam...may be an "attentive" customer.
Is that the only seam in the joint? How's it compare with the others?
And...we can't tell ya how to deal with the shop either?
I worked for one guy that ya had to bitch at to get noticed....I worked for one guy that if ya bitched...you went straight to the bottom of the list. The first guy loved confrontation..the second guy hated it.
Also worked around lotsa guys that just wanted a normal conversation.
Sorry to say......but you're on your own..some might tpye on with what ya wanna hear......but unless they saw it in person..and were privy to the dealings.....they're advice is worth as much as mine is on the particular case.....nothing!
Good luck, Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
There's just the one seam in this top...an L shape.
I don't expect you to tell me what to do or say...I'm trying to feel out how Corian usually works, if there's an easy way to fix, how'd you feel if it were your job, how you'd feel if you were the fabricator, etc.
I understand the my angle, I think I can see there's, and I know your comments might help me see the whole thing clearly.
Thanks!
In every business negotiation I tell custmers they can have any 2 of 3 things - Timing, Cost, and Quality. Where do you fit in?
I took the Corian installation course and we were told to NEVER tell the customer the seam was invisible. The seam is INCONSPICUOUS. Is it? If not it sounds like they did not squeeze the two panels together tight enough. I don't know why not. To fix it will require cutting the seam out and reseaming. This of course will make the CT shorter in length. How will this impact the ends or sink location? I later read that it occurs at the "L". If the CT is against the backsplash both legs will have to be pulled away. Again, how does this impact the sink installation? It will have to be disconected along with the faucet. As an aside, did you install an undermount sink?
The BB CT is a screw up. Is it on an island like the Showroom or behind the cooktop and in front of the backsplash? Are you concerned for the future ramifications or is it a cosmetic type blemish which is beyond your willingness to accept? Get them to sign a promise to repair it in the future for FREE if the patch fails over the next 5 years. If you do not like it, reject it. Making a stand now is better than steaming fir the next x years. You may be able to comprimise by buying another BB yourself and having them reinstall. The other BB is still yours and will make a few excellent cutting board gifts for the holidays or make an excellent moble cutting board for when you do extreme entertaining. Cut it lengthwise and it's a great side board.
Sanding and finishing the BB top is part of the job. This should be completed. What are they using to finish it?
What they do on their off time is none of your business. We all (well some of us) deserve it. So the timing got thrown off. Was this Kitchen built for this Thanksgiving or for use during the next 20yrs. Yes it would have been nice to have, especially since you gave them enough time but... Move beynd that issue. You'll be healthier.
Have you paid them in full?
Edited 12/5/2002 11:52:08 PM ET by Frankie
I owe them about $1600 or so, of the 15,000 I have given them over the past year.
We are not friends per se....one of my problems in life I guess is I don't keep too many things on the "professional" level...I like to make friends and get to know the people a bit before I give them piles of money (or work with them). To me, $15K is a good size pile. When the job is done, I don't expect to ever see them again...so were not friends outside of this. I do want to be able to rave about them and recommend them to everyone though.
I assume they have the piece already cut out of the BB. We discussed this, and it was to be cut on site when the range arrived (GE)...so when it showed up cut, I was surprised...when it was wrong, I was worried. We also discussed that the BB cutout piece would be used as a cutting board by me....I can only guess they cut it out for use in another project (nice gift perhaps??) and that piece may be gone. If so, there will be a significant gap due to saw blades...and I think that would be unacceptable. I'd be happy with the BB if they guarantee a repair...I just worry about the thermal/moisture cycling...as it is immediately at the back of the stove.
Can the Corian just be cut at the seem and then redone? Yes, I had them overhang the countertop on the end a little extra, so I could over up eventually the veneer with a real hickory panel (I assumed finished cabinet ends meant wood...not veneer...my error) So, if they just lost 1/8" or so, no worries. The sink would slide that amount, but again, no worries. See, I'm not THAT anal. LOL
Hmm, the L has a 45 degree angle at the joint...so that means it would all slide over some...and then require it to be out from the wall to make up the 1/8" on the corner?? Mmmm.
Thanks to all. I'm not sure why I hesitate to bring it up...almost as bad as my truss story!
[ Two piece trusses...1/2" plywood and glue and nails they told me to bring together (I was suspicious...but they were the "experts", right? ...32' clear span gambrel scissors...16' from top plate to peak...turns out AFTER they arrived they told me now I need 4 sheets of 3/4" plywood and 20 3/5" bolts PER TRUSS! About $2500 worth of materials! Ouch. In the end, the lumber yard (NOT Lowes, NOT HD, etc.) gave me all the bolts (ever buy 920 3/4" washers before? They're over $100. 460 bolts in all...I bought 3/4" plywood)
Sorry to disappoint Calvin...there's been a handful of small disasters on the project! LOL
The thanksgiving this was just a personal thing...it's been on the calendar for over a year. I built this place, it's been a lot of work, and if I really wanted to make my goal....My extended family didn't bother to show up anyways...I am getting over it...I really am. :)
Edited 12/6/2002 12:14:17 AM ET by PIRGERBRUCE
I went up to look at this seam again...and its there. But I think even worse...the 3 layer "build up" that is the front of the countertop, which I have a simple round over on, has seams as well. In fact, you can catch your fingernail in the seem in some places. So not only a visible seam, but actually not glued together.
In some places it looks perfect, but all around where the the pieces come together, there's these problems.
I know there shouldn't be any fingernail sized gaps.
Thanks everyone.
I personally would not accept the butcher block top...a glued in piece to fix their mistake is just "cheezy" looking. You will always see the glue joints on the endgrain. As far as the strength of that patch job..no problem..but those seams will be looking at you like eyes as long as you are there.
The corian seams should definately not be felt...and be very hard to find. I would stand my ground and not pay the balance till they delivered what is acceptable.
I dont think you are anal at all......I see this stuff happen all the time. The contractor over promises and under produces. Classic..lets get that job done and get out of there.
If more customers stood their ground..this BS would slow down.
You are never going to be satisfied with this countertop as it stands. Tell them it's not acceptable, and you want your cutout too. I think they are taking advantage of you, they had to know it looks bad when they put it in, maybe hoping you don't call, but secretly expecting it to happen.
I really like the quote you started out with.Jon Blakemore
OK...here's the latest.
With the butcherblock...I have always known that it would be two pieces glued together to get the 5x8 piece. So I thought. They told me today it was actually three pieces glued together...and the "cut out" was never cut, but the ends of the two smaller pieces. Now, the top looks really nice to me...so I have no problems with the glue job. So throwing in a new piece behind the range should be no problem I think...it is cut from another board.
Also turns out they'll give me a 2' square piece for an actual cutting board.
Hmmm, I can't believe how much communication I had with these folks and still they didn't tell me like it is. I do believe they must have done something a little cheaper...I have been told, and can tell, the owner is EXTREMELY frugal. But it does look sweet.
Corian: I told them on the phone about the seam and worse yet the actual gaps along the front build up pieces. They agreed...that's not acceptable...so we shall see what the fix is.
Now, that being said and done, he asked that I pay them now...and I asked why not wait until it is done? Something about "personal integrity" was said...and I do trust him...and something about "it's payday for the employees" was said. But I also said I've paid $15K, surely they are not worried about getting the rest when they are done...I don't know, I'll probably give in and pay them early next week.
Thanks everyone.
NO NO NO Don't pay yet... NO
"I love you guys. I have the check right here. It's written in the full amount. I'll hand it to you the very second that x, y, and z are resolved."
If your contract says that they should be paid before completion pay them up.
If not (more likely) then don't pay until it's reasonably completed. Some have said you might be too picky, but unfinished pieces is a whole lot more objective than personal pickiness. If it's not all there, don't pay.
Jon Blakemore
DO NOT PAY UNTIL YOU ARE HAPPY!!!!! at least until you come to a compromise. Don't be a fool. You will pay in full and he will delay delay delay and nevr get to the job.
OK,I promise I won't pay until I'm happy.Jon Blakemore
Hi Guys:
Here's the latest...
They came out and installed butcher block piece. Looks OK...don't think I'd ever notice if I didn't know...and even now, acceptable. They didn't sand it just right so there's a little "lip" at the seam..but 3 minutes and it will be OK.
The corian...sigh...they seamed to have filled the seams, the actual 1/32" gaps they had, with epoxy or something and sanded...so now they are white lines instead of gaps! I'm still not pleased...
I didn't speak with them yet...I need to call.
I'm thinking maybe we should walk through the showroom and look at all their tops and say mine should look the same. No seams seen on the built up front in the shop, none at my house. Seam in the showroom, seam OK. If you don't know what to look for, you probably wouldn't see them (not sure about this...depends if you are a quality concious guy or not I think).
I'll keep you all informed...Thanks.
bruce
Sorry, but these guys are no good sons of bitches. Any honorable contractor would never ask for final payment until you were happy, if both of you agree to the problem and how it can be fixed. The " I need the money to pay payroll " is crap! You remorgage the house before you would say that to a customer! Needs $1500 for payroll?! come on!
Scott
Pirgerbruce,
I'm a GC, I have integrity,I'm honest, I really mean it when I say I'll be there to fix what you're unhappy with,don't pay me until I do.
Please help me keep my good reputation.Don't pay until I'm done and you're satisfied.
I'm not sure what day this ,heck I'm not sure what month this is,weeks go by without me even knowing. Don't pay me until I'm done.Vince Carbone
"...I suspect there might be some venting below..."
Could it be that air space is required behind the range to vent an oven? I ran into this once with a Viking range, and stock items did not fit the bill.The owner ended up ordering a custom made vent cover.
Or is the range a drop-in cook top with a trim all the way around the top?
The range is a slide in...no requirement for true venting anywhere, just I see "vent holes" in the rear of the oven. I suspect these might be electronics...not oven venting directly. There is a fan that will run to cool the electronics. No spectactual thermal cycles. Front door stays cool when it's 500 inside. Not like my mom's old oven...yikes.
Anyways, here's the latest.
Went to the shop/showroom today. Sure enough...I see seams in the front build up. Some are worse than others, some are worse than mine. I even was able to find a top seam.
So, the owner says he does not want me to have a bad taste in my mouth...and that if I want, they'll bring the whole top back to the shop and redo the seam. That will require building up the front and end...which will create more linear inches of seam! So I suspect best not to do it.
He did say he saw the gaps and was appalled that the top left the shop in that state. The seams were filled and sanded...so there's a bit a "white lines" now. The Corian epoxy to use with Matterhorn is some Dawn Baise color I guess...a little lighter than the matterhorn itself. They try to sand up some matterhorn and mix the dust with the epoxy to match the color best they can...
So, I don't think they are trying to pull anythign over on me. I really don't. He did say he could see my seam...he said he had to look somewhat...but he thought it was an acceptable Corian seam.
After looking in the showroom, and seeing some seams in the front buildups, I guess these must be close to acceptable as well. LOL
So I think they will come out and sand some more...maybe it is just residual epoxy on top of one sheet...as the seams are not truely hairline like some of those I saw in the shop...
I think in the end I'll just have to live with these....most folks wouldn't even notice. But if I want, they'll take it out and bring it back. Lot's of work, lot's of headaches, and potential for even more, larger problems, right?
The butcherblock itself looks pretty good. And they did give me a 2' square piece as a cutting block from another job.
So, I feel good about them...they are nice folks. I do get some conflicting stories from the owner and the guy doing the work...sounds like he got a bit of a lashing.
Oh, I did give them most of the balance...See, if ever I hire you fine folks, you'll know you can get paid before you think should! LOL
Thanks again!
If the showroom tops are imperfect, then that's probably the best that they can do. Not the best that can be done with Corian, mind you, but the best that _they_ can do. Taking yours out to fix it, etc...likely just result in another scratch or accident or whatever and minimal improvement in the other areas. If you think it's acceptable in it's current state, then that's what counts.
Now that you've gone through this, what would you do differently if repeating the job?
Use Granite!
LOL
Hmmm...it seems to me, throughout all aspects of my life, I have very high expectations. Of myself...and naturally of others. I build custom high performance data acquisition systems for bleeding edge astronomical instruments...cost is no issue, it's all about performance and flexibility...I guess I expect this same kind of devotion and quality from others, but on a limited budget and certainly not "perfect"....but maybe I expect too much. I suspect that may be the biggest part of my problem...unrealistic expectations.
Sooo, what would I do differently?
1. Do it myself. Hmmm, is this an acceptable answer? For the butcher block, yes, for the Corian no. When I build the log home...I will build the kitchen cabinets myself...real wood. Expensive? Not so bad in materials....huge in time....but full of love.
Would it be "better" if judge by an independent panel? Probably not...but it would be my best, my way, and most likely much easier to accept.
2. Could I have found a better builder/fabricator? Maybe...apparently yes.
3. Did I know this? No. Based on the references I had, people I knew, the folks I used are the best in town. Based on what I saw in the showroom...before seeing MY seam (LOL)...all looked well. In hindsight, knowing exactly where to look for seams...I can see them. I'd like to see a showroom that has NO seams anywhere...you can bet I will always look.
4. Would I change paperwork? No. I really like the ability to work on a handshake and working with people of character and integrity. I'm sure they'd take it all out and redo it all if I say so, but I agree, more lilkely to introduce more problems then fix. There was some paperwork by the way...
5. Maybe lower my expectations? "We live in an imperfect world, in imperfect houses," etc.
6. Do more homework? Hmmmm...Again, I'm not sure. When I go to the showroom now, I can see the seams in the front lip buildup. I never did before...I call it the second order affects. Initially you don't see, even on the next look, but then when you are more refined and experience you notice. That's what happened to me... Had I done this before, as I have now achieved I think, I would have expected some of these seams.
I'd REALLY like to see more tops from other folks, now that I really know what to look for. Would I have seen this from more shopping around? I doubt it.
The seam is un-acceptable, specially for Corian, which is on the high on of solid surface materials. I figure one of three reasons for the bad install. The shop sent a new guy, and/or the install was rushed, or they just had a bad day. None of which are your doing, if they felt rushed, (4 months is rushed?) they should have insisted on a longer deadline.
Since you seem to respect the and value your relationship with the shop, call them up, firmly but politely bring the shortcoming(s) to their attention, and ask what solution they propose, (sand out, replace, etc, etc)
Hey....... You paid for it, you got to live with it, you'll be the one looking at the seam for years to come.
GC
Pirgerbruce
Lets assume(because nobody here knows for sure) that the seam is very noticable, if you paid going rate for the job why are you so worried how much effort it takes for them to correct the problem, just get someone out there and have them look at it and ask them what they will do to make it right, if done wrong(like I said, nobody here knows) its there problem how hard or easy it is to correct. If you paid for good job then you damn well should get it, I'm only saying that about the "paid for good" because you refer to them as somewhat friends and maybe you got some "deal" that they rushed through for you, at a cheap price?
Not sure I would except the butcher block thing either.
Just my HO
Good luck
Doug
You need a repair specialist. On a high end house I worked on the guy installing the sink, it wasn't cut before because there was some doubt as to where it was going exactly, gouged the counter top. He was profoundly apologetic and made an offer to pay for replacement of the custom unit. The general called the counter guys. The counter guys called the specialist.
The next morning, it was luck he was available as he said he was booked for months in advance but happened to be in the area, he cleaned up the hole and proceeded to mix up different colors of a patch material. I think it was epoxy. He patched and matched the complex pattern. He then polished it to a matching finish. When complete, it took him about six hours, none of us could find the damaged spot even under magnification. He did a great job at, according to the general, a fraction of what a replacement would have cost.
If its just the seam maybe it can be dug out and repatched in a more artistic manner. Something to check out.
now..........asking for the money......sends up a red flag.
so there...now I'm on yer side too!
Keep posting, Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite