I know enough about framing to be dangerous but have a question about how one of the builders we are thinking of using to build our house frames the first floor.
Instead of using a sill on top of the foundation, he puts the I-joists directly on the foundation. He nails a 2×4 against the foundation under the I-joist to keep the foundation from moving. I would think that you would want to have a sill to keep the I-joists from any moisture and to make it easy to get the first floor level. I know this would never work in earthquake or hurricane zones because it isn’t attached to the foundation but we won’t have that problem where we are building.
I have never heard about, seen, or read about this way of framing. Is this some new way of framing floors or a cheaper way?
Replies
I'd pick another builder.
The I-joists can get wet from moisture wicked up thru the concrete, and bugs can get to them.
Mudsills are securely bolted to the foundation, and the joists are then securely toenailed to them. How does this guy achieve the same of attachment to the foundation? What do the local inspectors think of this?
I asked him about it and he said that you didn't need to because the sill just kept the foundation from caving in. That is why he attached the 2x4 under the I-joists.
Does your building locale fall under the jurisdiction of a building code? Does your town have a building inspector?
If so, call the inspector and describe this builder's methods. Ask if they meet local code. If his methods don't meet code, there's your ammunition to get a mudsill. If his methods meet local code then it's up to you to decide if you want your house built this way.
If there is no code to back you up, then it's up to you to decide if you want your house built this way.
I wouldn't.
No one I know of, and no code I know of, allows building with non-PT wood (I-joist flanges) in contact with a concrete foundation.
If you have no code and no official and no backbone (no insult intended) to tell him to put in a mudsill, then get in touch with whomever manufactures the wood I-joists that you're using and describe the situation to them. I guarantee they'll say "no way" to flanges in direct contact with the foundation.
You know how you want it framed, you know what needs to be done. You can get this guy to change his methods and add a mudsill to your framing, but the next question is "what else will he do that is...shall we say...different?"
It's your house and your money. Make it right from the start, or start saving now for the repairs that will come due a few years down the road.
TJIs are an engineered product. To me, that makes them either "good" or "bad" in terms of structural performance. Unlike stock lumber, there is no "in between" in terms of strength. Placing them directly on the foundation will likely result in immediate "crush" damage to some of the flanges, and that, to me, will make them "bad". Meaning 100% unusable for carrying a structural load. Long-term wicking of moisture from the foundation into the damaged (or undamaged) flanges will increase the severity of the damage. A damaged TJI could fail in one month or in one decade. But it will fail.
Also, if you ever try to sell this house...you likely won't. NOt if it's inspected by a competent buyer. The ommision of $100 of mudsill will likely cause you tens of thousands of dollars down the road.
Also, I seriously doubt if a 2x4 nailed to the bottom flanges of a run of TJIs will stop a foundation from caving in. I'd think the caving foundation would simply peel the 2x4 right off the bottom of the flange.
Edited for speling and gramer.
Edited 6/11/2002 3:17:44 PM ET by Mongo
CORYR1=
This 'builder' is feeding you a total line of crap. "to keep the foundation from caving in"............this is UNBELEIVEABLE bullsh*t.
ABSOLUTELY DO NOT HIRE THIS PERSON.
Ken Hill
Ken, if his builder is doing the foundation too, he may be right about it needing the 2x's to keep it upright. Joe H
Joe-
If he needs two-by's to keep the fdn. upright, there's somethin' rotten in Denmark, unless that 2x has something to do with the formwork. Building without a sill as described is still bullsh*t. You need that sill to realize compressive bearing on the foundation.
Ken Hill
Edited 6/12/2002 2:32:25 PM ET by Ken Hill
Ken, it's a joke :) ..... Joe H
> You need that sill to realize compressive bearing on the foundation.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Concrete is almost always good for at least 2000 psi, and Doug Fir, for instance, is good for 625 psi perpendicular to the grain, so the sill doesn't seem to help by spreading the load over a larger area of concrete. Moisture seems to be the primary issue.
Even if this house is in an extremely dry climate, and this wierd way of doing things doesn't cause a problem, you'll still have a big problem when you try to sell it. This is the kind of thing that a home inspector will find and a buyer will use to beat down the price. What is most telling is that the proposer of this idea offers no suggestion as to why it might be better than the conventional way.
-- J.S.
I'd say the guy is an idiot.
Doctors can be frustrating. You wait a month-and-a-half for an appointment, and he says, "I wish you'd come to me sooner."
Get another opinion, this guy is noy a pro... Use a bottom plate (mudsill) and attach it to the foundation as per standard framing techniques. This works even in earthquake areas if done right. You only get one chance at this application, do it right, check with your local building dept.
coryr1:
You will receive a million responces. They will all tell you to get a builder-not another builder.
Charlie
hi CORYR1,
in what part of the country are you building?
and
what kind of foundation do you plan to have?
best, GO
Absolutely NO wood in direct contact with concrete. Ever.
Needs metal termite shield, sill sealer, sills. Your concrete
is not perfectly flat. Pretty much guaranteed. Without
sills, your floor will not be flat. Also, engineered joists
have less moisture resistance than solid lumber. You NEED
J bolts every 6 feet. Don't care what the climate is.
Wood moves. Expands, contracts. House needs to be solidly
anchored to foundation so the whole thing doesn't end up in
the basement in 30 years.
Regardless of whether local code permits this butcher job,
you do not want it. Do NOT use this builder. If he has such
low standards that he's willing to shaft people with such
shoddy practice, you don't want him even if he agrees to do
it the right way. Who knows what he will do elsewhere.