Replies

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 15, 2002 03:35am | #1

   *
   ricky, we do it both ways, kinda moody.. but just doing additions we can afford to be moody..
   i prefer the notch.. keeps everything on the square...

1. 
   Mark_"if_I_were_a_carpenter | Feb 15, 2002 10:07pm | #2

   *Ricky, where I live now, (midwest) nobody frames anything with rafters, I lived in Texas for a few years and down there everyone uses rafters. I agree that notching the studs and face nailing them on the gable rafter is the best way to do it. If you wanna get real fancy you can even use the formulas on your framing square to precut all of those studs to the correct length before installing them and only have to get a measurement for the first one.

1. 
   Dave_Richeson | Feb 16, 2002 12:32am | #3

   *I must be getting old. That is the way I was taught to do them!Dave

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Feb 16, 2002 01:46am | #4

   *u r , dave.. but you're not alone.....

1. 
   Mike_Maines_ | Feb 16, 2002 02:46am | #5

   *I was actually taught to build a full stud wall with a top plate under the gable rafter. Boss called it a "California gable". (Why is it that anything non-traditional is called "California?") Later I discovered the old notching method and think it's easier and less wasteful of wood, as long as you know how to use a skilsaw.

2. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Feb 16, 2002 03:02am | #6

   *If you frame the wall a little taller you don't need that rafter at all, do you?

3. 
   Mark_"if_I_were_a_carpenter | Feb 16, 2002 08:33am | #7

   *Hmmmm.... Methinks Mr. Blodgett is onto something....

4. 
   ricky_espo | Feb 16, 2002 10:38pm | #8

   *Crazy legs, I think the reason we have a gable rafter there at all is for speed. You could definitely save the cost of four rafters, but a lot of framers aren't buying the materials and want to build the gables the fastest way. It probably wouldn't be to hard to get a system down if you had your mind set on it. Seems like you would lay a rafter on the deck on top of the wall and mark it out on the deck ply. Then just build your wall to it. One thing to consider is the shrinkage of the rafters. The wall wouldn't be shrinking and the rafters would be shrinking and deflecting. Have any of you guys ever left your gable rafters low purposely to counter for the rafters deflecting and shrinking? Have you ever noticed on a house that is at least a few years old that the gable rafters are riding higher that the rest?

5. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Feb 17, 2002 12:07am | #9

   *The last roof I framed I used TJIs for rafters. No shrinkage there. I framed the gable walls 3+1/2" shorter than the top plane of the rafters, then cantalievered 2x4s on edge out over the gable walls to carry the overhangs. You could drive Lonecat's Lincoln on those overhangs. It was quick, and saved material on rafters.Of course, next time I'll probably invent some other whacky system. How do you figure it's faster to frame that gable wall with a rafter and notched studs than to frame the wall the full height and eliminate the rafter?

6. 
   ricky_espo | Feb 17, 2002 12:30am | #10

   *Crazy Legs, It's probably faster for me because I have done it that way for twenty odd years. You have a rectangle wall built and lying down. Cut man leans up 2 rafters and you fasten to top of wall, toss a block in for the ridge snap a couple lines for studs and zing, zing, zing. Wall framed, ready for sheathing. I can cut the notched studs faster than my guy can install them. I agree on your flying rake method. Stong as hell. Labor intensive though. How far out are you cantilevering? How do you attach the 2x4s to the TJIs? Why TJIs? You must be talking about long lengths. Call me old-fashioned or opinionated but I like solid wood for joists and rafters. I did a re-roof once where there was absolutely no glue left in the ply wood. There were 4 plys of wood there but no glue. What kind of shape are these houses going to be in 50 or 100 years from now if the glue fails. Do you think the manufacturer will still be around then? Will they be liable? How do the manufacturers of the glue know it will last for 50 years or more? Take the glue out of the structure and the building will stand as long as you maintain it. We have structures here in New England that are 300+ years old. What is the limit of these adhesives so far as time? Jim, Please don't think I'm p***ing on yourleg. Just stating my opinion.Thanks, R.E.

7. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Feb 17, 2002 04:23am | #11

   *Yeah, man, we're just exchanging ideas. I love that. We don't get any snow to speak of. I like 24" overhangs, more if I can engineer them and the design can stand them. I try to keep as much rain off the siding and windows as possible. That's what these were, 24".At the TJI we notched the end of the outlookers for the top flange, butted them against the TJIs and nailed them from the other side, 24" o.c. A more interesting detail on that roof was the tails we added - 72" 2x4s, 48" sistered to the side of the TJI, 24" hanging out the end, with a 2x4 squash block between the bottom of the tail and the top of the wall plate. Why TJIs? I like them. Straight, light, stable, consistant, reasonably priced, longer spans, easier to sheath. I think they're the cat's pajamas. And I hope you're wrong about the glue breaking down over time. Don't scare me like that.Where're you at in New England?

8. 
   Mark_"if_I_were_a_carpenter | Feb 17, 2002 05:34am | #12

   *I'm leaning toward Ricky on this one. OSB etc. for sheathing is one thing. But I also have some trepidation about trusting the structural integrity of a building to the good word of a chemical company. What if the adhesives fail? I know that they have supposedly put these products through rigorous testing but what if the company that the manufacturer bought the adhesive from had a step get off in their manufacturing process, and it wasn't caught until after your tjis were built delivered, and installed? This type of thing happens way more often than you might think in the pharmacutical industry. Considering how heavily overshadowed they are by the FDA, it would be naive to believe that it couldn't happen in the adhesive manufacturing industry. I'm by no means afraid of new products, nor am I old fashioned. I am however pretty skittish about trusting someone elses manufacturing processies when it comes to such a critical component of a building. Personally, I prefer trusses for floor decking, and good old fashioned 2X lumber for rafters.

9. 
   James_DuHamel | Feb 17, 2002 09:23am | #13

   *I usually extend the top plates past the wall plane. This gives me a support for the barge rafter to rest on, and is very strong.I also notch the end studs. Was taught that method, and have always used it.James DuHamel

10. 
    ricky_espo | Feb 17, 2002 06:47pm | #14

    *Mark, All the open-webbed floor trusses that I see around here (Southern NH, MA) are glued together and not made with mechanical fasteners like they used to be. It's a finger joint construcion smeared with some dark red epoxy looking stuff. They are as rigid as standing on a concrete slab, but I am skeptical.

11. 
    Dan-O | Feb 17, 2002 09:39pm | #15

    *Hi ricky espo,I havn't seen you here before so howdy. And welcome.If ya been here before welcome anyway.I do the notch thing, And, like leg man, sometimes vault the wall studs . No hinging, but gotta fire cat. Usually on exposed cathedrals or atriums.Don't like glue made structural members either and esp. don't care for osb. Funny how a simple detail like notched gable studs can be topical but I thought about it before and saidoh well, each to his own. Glad others are like minded.How 'bout tar paper vs. house wrap. which u like? I'm in vt., freezin my nuts off! seeyaDan-O

12. 
    Dave_Richeson | Feb 17, 2002 11:18pm | #16

    *I had some T1-11 delaminate on me years ago. The scrap piece I had left did not have the lot number on it. I could not find a full lot number that wasn't interupted by a stud in either gable end. Even with my reciept I had a hell of a time getting it replaced. I still hed to eat the labor because i had glued and nailed the bad stuff. Never got a clear lot number when I did the repair.Point is: I now write the lot number of all sheet goods on the back of the dray ticket. Jim, I use your flying rafter approach for any overhang. I even order gable end trusses 3+1/2 inches shorter. I have ballon framed gable end walls for cathedral ceiling, but only used that method to support the end rafters and ridge beam. I am glad you are thinking "out of the box." I'll add your "no rafter" end wall to my book of methods.Dave

13. 
    Mark_"if_I_were_a_carpenter | Feb 18, 2002 04:17am | #17

    *Ricky, Wow! No gusset plates ? I've never seen or heard of that before! I'm more than skeptical, I'm downright scared. It's sickening- the lengths they'll go to just to save a few pennies.

14. 
    ricky_espo | Feb 18, 2002 05:53am | #18

    *Hi Dan,Thanks for the welcome.I have never used tarpaper on a wall. Years ago (70s-early 80s)we used to cover the walls with red rosin paper. As soon as Tyvek came on the scene that was all we used until Typar made it's appearance. I like Typar for the ease of application (it stretches). I don't know if it does what it's supposed to do or not. Mark,Yeah, that's right, no gussets on the floor trusses. I have used them on other peoples jobs and I can't believe how solid the floor is. No bounce what so ever and very quiet. It seems to me that the old floor trusses used to make noise from the metal gussets. It has been quite a while since they have been around here, maybe I dreamt that part. Anyway, I don't think I would use them on my house. It could be that I'm just paranoid but give me solid lumber for structure. I framed a house for a builder once in the mid-eighties that called for 26' 2x12 rafters. They showed up finger-jointed and I threw them up and sheathed the roof. The builder came by the next day and he was popping gaskets left and right when he saw the finger-jointed rafters. Had nothing to do with me, I just used the stock that he supplied. I think the lumber yard took it on the chin though. Hey Mike in RI, Do you see these floor trusses down there?

15. 
    tom_varney | Mar 01, 2002 05:04am | #19

    *One thing I've noticed is that when I've used bevel cut studs each time the stud is toenailed to the rafer it forces the rafter up slightly,which crowns the end rafters noticably.I now only notch them. By cutting the notch 1/4 inch short I make sure that the rafter stays straight.