Client wants to boost out the greatroom end of the house, and its end is a tall gable, all windows and glass doors, probably 7 large units all told.
The products are a mix of Andersen (doors) and Crestline, and date back maybe 12 years. Naturally, the scope reads save everything and re-use in the new bumped-out wall.
The addition is to go where presently there is a house-width rectangular deck with railing, all PT wood. The addition is to be the size of the deck, and naturally, the deck materials are specified to be all re-used, or as much as possible.
So except for the new materials in the new built-out structure, there isn’t much to buy and mark up. The addition has nothing in plumbing or cabinetry.
I look at all the take-out-the-old and re-use it as a lot of tedious labor.
This ain’t the kind of work I need. What do you think?
Replies
Either don't bid it, or bid it high to not get it.
I'd probably opt to not get it. I'd just be honest and tell them the work doesn't appeal to me.
There is a problem associated with tossing out ridiculously high bids. When you do this, you brand youself with a tag that might not be a true reflection of who and what you are. You don't want people thinking that you charge 25k for a 5k job...they'll never call you again and they'll taint your image to their friends. That's why I'd opt for the honest answer and I'd probably give them a reference to someone that might like that job.
All that information would be exchanged in the initial phone conversation and I probably wouldn't have wasted more than five minutes of my time.
blue
If you can do it, give them two bids. One bid for straight demolition and another for disassembly and salvage. Make sure that the second bid includes the costs of:
I find that most people don't really understand the cost of trying to reuse old parts.
Tearing apart and rebuilding with new materials takes a lot less time than tearing apart, marking for re-use, storing, pulling out old nails, taking out of storage, laying out so it can be rebuilt, etc. What they would save in materials will be more than offset by just buying new and having it look like they aren't being really clueless about what it takes to do this job. Besides, how much longer do they expect the wood deck to last? It's already 12 years old and IMO, the wood won't be sound for much longer, especially since the old nail/screw holes probably won't be used.
I agree with you.
If you have plenty of work, bid high and make sure you have butt coverage language and handling charges in your contract about the removal and reuse of the materials, especialy 12 year old windows which cold lose seals in the process.
While highfigh is right ("Tearing apart and rebuilding with new materials takes a lot less time than tearing apart, marking for re-use, storing, pulling out old nails, taking out of storage, laying out so it can be rebuilt, etc.") provided you get your labor estimate correct (and your using a Capacity (Labor) Based Markup)I really don't see what the problem is.
Your markup on your Labor should cover all your office overhead costs incurred for the time your doing the project and that markup should also be generating Net Profit on that time (labor) too so you certainly wouldn't be performing the job at a loss.
Now it seems to me maybe your figuring that because there the aren't any new materials involved your not getting generating any Net Profit from the sale of those materials. Well that's easily handled by figuring out what the cost of those materials would be if you were providing them (selling them to your client) and compute the Net Profit you would charge on them and then add just that Net Profit figure to your bill for the labor on the job.
We do that all the time. We often do projects where the materials are provided by the architect, interior designer, or project managing GC and while they get any saving in cost by providing the material themselves we still earn a Net Profit essentially on what those materials are worth in place thanks to our expertise and labor.
Now on the other hand if you use an Estimated Total Volume Based Markup in your business and you take a job like that is going to be a loser so you would either need to walk away from it or change markup strategies to a Capacity Based Markup. (see The Potential Problem Using a Traditional Volume Based Markup for why that job would be a loser under those conditions).
On another note that client I told you about who has the summer house up on Hurricane, I think he'll be heading up there again sometime soon now that the house has been opened back up for the summer season. When he does give you a call, call me and fill you in on how we've been working with him.
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My experience with saving for re-use is that you will not have more thana third of it useable - bank on it 'cause that is reality.
It does vary by product catagory. Doors and windows can generally be saved, but the labor involved costs neaarly as much or sometimes more than it would have cost to buy new.
A request like this is a prime candidate for a high bid or a cost plus offer
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As it turns out, I wuz wrong re the decking stuff. All will be new there.
As for the windows, there will be six, one of which is the Andersen slider door. Maybe it won't be too bad, unless whoever did the initial install used the wrong kind of foam when sealing their perimeters.
I think we should take Jerrald's advice, and figure in the margin on the windows as if we are buying them new, then very conservatively figure times to remove, clean, prep, and store.
My big concern now is finding out during removal that one or more cannot be saved and new must be ordered. It'll throw a huge kink into the schedule. It could even be a job-wrecker, because schedule-wise, the ripout looks like September, and snows can start to fly here the month after. With replacement units coming in maybe around November, the exterior finish work at that elevation goes into ski season, and any final paint and caulk will wait until late spring '07. Ouch!
gene.. your anold millwork guy... what would you give me for a 12 year old Crestline window...
or..for that matter , a 12 year old Andersen door.. or any door ?
short of historical preservation ..or custom .. i'd not want to be doing this and reusing old millwork.. the savings will be a miniscule part of the total job cost
Mike, you have more experience at this than we do, and you are likely right. We oughta just bury the cost of new units into this, and get on with business. Just order the window package at contract signing time and consign the oldies to the dumpster.
Every single tearout I've ever been in on involved all new goodies going back into the holes. And the ripouts are quick and heartless, with no worrying about saving anything.
Consider all those extruded aluminum perimeter parts, how easy it is to kink something and render it useless. Forgettaboudit!
We'll be happier, so will the customer, and the job's schedule won't get twitched.