I’m planning on installing random width (3-1/4â€, 4-/14†and 5-1/4â€) oak flooring on a 45 degree angle in a large room. I’ve done numerous jobs with 2-1/4â€, but nothing larger.
Are there any pitfalls associated with the larger widths?
Can I just blind nail all three widths or do I have to face nail also?
Any tips will be greatly appreciated.
DER
Skim-coating with joint compound covers texture, renews old drywall and plaster, and leaves smooth surfaces ready to paint.
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Replies
Are there any pitfalls associated with the larger widths?
I hope you're planning for quarter sawn.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yes, I am planning on using quartersawn. Do you think blind nailing is OK for widths up to 5-1/4"?
blind nailing is fine for 5 1/4 - - give the flooring all the time you can on site, spread out or stickered - it's a good time to do a floor -
Thanks a lot for the info.
When you say it's a good time of the year, do you mean because of the low winter time humidity?
Do I have to worry about the wider boards "cupping"?
...because of the low winter time humidity?
yes - - good if you have time to let the wood aclimate - - the boards will cup under two conditions, if there is moisture migration from underneath - a good reason to put down a layer of felt paper - - and if the wood is wet enough that the top dries and the bottom can't - -
is this material pre-finished? - - if you're gonna have to sand it, you could lay it, and wait for a month, that way you'll sand out any minor cup that will occur - obviously, not all jobs allow for such a generous time window - in which case get it sanded and get the finish on right away to slow uneven drying - -
where's 'ditch? he's the expert...
Luvditchburns is the exspurt.
But I'll throw in my 2c.
Nail it every 3-4" and use some Adhesive.(glue)
Mr T
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Mr. T
Nailing every 3-4 inches sounds good.
Since I'd be glueing directly to the subfloor does the loss of a vapor barrier have any negative effects?
Will an adhesive help prevent cupping?
What type of adhesive do you like?
Thanks
In response to David D, the flooring is not prefinished and I actually do have the luxury of being able to let it sit for a month after installing and before finishing.
don't use vapor barrier on wood subfloor......let material sit in house in actual rooms to be installed(not in garage or basement) for at least a week before install, two weeks way better
...if bundled, "crib" stack them, 3-4 bundles on floor spaced foot apart, next course 3-4 bundles stacked perpendicular to bottom stack, again spaced foot apart....if loose long planks, stickers on floor, stickers every few courses
specs say no glue 5" or less, but i've been gluing everything over 4" wide, avoids cupping and noise....GLUE, Bostik's Best goodstuff, but expensive ....use stripes of pl400 under 5" widths only w/ 4" nailing, bit more spacing w/staples as tend to break tongues on board if too close....staples, set compressor low enough, 65psi as starter to avoid breakage of tongues
fasteners on 3 & 4" space 8-9 inches
If I go with 4-1/4", 3-1/4" & 2-1/4" boards and drop the 5-1/4 and not glue, should I still not use a vapor barrier?
Is a vapor barrier not needed on a wood subfloor or is it actually detrimental?
Can you recommend a source for Bostik's Best?
Thanks
Hi- skip the vapor barrier unless it is required...on normal wood subfloor it could be detrimental as far as causing condensation then mildew where there would be no access...you don't need it unless i'm missing something about moisture problem...
if not gluing you can put down rosin paper, pink, comes 3' rolls...got taught to use the stuff to eliminate wood to wood generated squeaking, not sure it works...guy in same subdivision put down floor when i was too busy, same bldr, framers, subfloor and flooring etc...all he did was sweep and install oak to the deck, been in that house and some i did with rosin paper, no more or less squeaks without it...still use it because people ask about it after they research on the computer...that damn internet...
don't use tarpaper/black felt, it's a great cushion at first, then it dries up and is useless, worse, in "dip" areas your weight on the floor can cause oak to deflect down, slight sticking with the sound of tape releasing as you walk away and the contact point lets go
do recommend good sweeping and scrape any joint compound up, renail w/ ringshanks in squeak areas or ply not nailed to schedule...shore up soft spots at seams between joists with blocking underneath...see if you can address crowned areas, level out bad dips...then **vacuum** entire subfloor, gets a lot of crud up that causes noise
Bostik can be ordered from a warehouse by any flooring store, just checked it quick for a job, wholesale over $100. on a 5 gal. pail, only 250s.f. coverage, great glue bond though...decided to bid with the stripes of pl400 under each course...for big jobs get pneumatic assist caulk gun, quart tube size @ Grainger's...what part of country you in?
Thanks for the great info.
I’m in the Chicago area.
I don’t know if it matters, but there is basement area (completely dry) under the floor where the hardwood will be installed.
I’ve never worked with anything wider than 2-1/4 before so I have zero experience with gluing. Consequently,
I’m not familiar with the pl400 you mentioned a couple of times. What is it?
I’ve seen thin rolls of cork mentioned as an underlayment, presumably to help with noise. Have you ever used it?
PL400 is construction subfloor adhesive, comes in small caulk gun tubes or the large one-quart size tubes...the large size is easier to work with to eliminate handling...home depot and other yards also carry Liquid Nails brand subfloor adhesive, good product...
before tapping boards in place, apply a stripe of PL400 down the subfloor to glue that row...best tapping mallet is wood handle with iron head one side, white rubber head on other...white is non-marring, and rubber will not dent leading joint edge, which will show when next board is banged in tight to it...
cork underlay is good stuff, pricey at about $1.s.f.m will help cut noise, MUST use 2" nails or staples
dry basement below is normal install, no vapor barrier needed...
Thanks to all for the great info.
I greatly appreciate all the help I can get.
One more question.
The clientis more concerned about quality than time or money and has asked me if a better job is achieved if the adhesive is troweled on overall instead of just stripes?
Thanks
I glue anything over 4" to help prevent movement/inverted cupping and the noise it causes. If your widest board on the random is 5" just glue those courses. Lot of overkill, expense and time to glue smaller widths. The Bostik is real good stuff, but gluing one course out of three I'd stick with the PL400 for ease, about 1/4" bead. Not worth putting rosin paper down for this install, have to get glue to subfloor every third course of sticks.
Someone wrote about the extra moisture from new drywall and paint, good advice. Don't know if this is new construction or not, but out of Chicago you deal with winter heating/ dry air same as New England. In the spring and rain periods moisture content goes wild. If you're going to do flooring, get a moisture meter and test the subfloor and flooring when first brought in, then every few days to watch acclimation, log the numbers.
Go to website for http://www.coastaltool.com and check Delmhorst J-2000 meter for $189, good price, comes in hard plastic case. That meter adjusts for different species of wood, versatile. They also carry Crain jamb and toekick saws, Bostitch staplers...Checking with a meter can keep you out of a lot of trouble with flooring. Can use it for other stuff if doing GC work, help find roof and plumbing leaks by checking bottom of roof and floor deck sheathing to track wet areas to source.
To keep floor quiet, try to keep joints staggered 8" or more between courses. Use a mallet with iron head/white rubber striking face. No dents, no black rubber streaks to clean up. Best way is to lay out the whole room first, check the layout for bad seams, discolored boards and cull them out. Then it's production nailing time, apply stripe of glue at each 5" course.
Thanks for the info. Another question.
Have you ever installed a flush mount electrical outlet with the brass covers?
If yes can you recommend a source?
They want 3 of these in different locations about the floor.
check the electrical supply houses, the ones with counters for commercial sales, not just lighting centers. ...haven't installed the units, electricians did that, but use the good stuff...noticed some are flimsy, the good ones heavy brass...might ask for hospital grade or school grade to get quality pieces...work with the sparks to let them know what elevation to set it at so floor can be sanded, leave few pieces of floor stock for their use as pattern blocks.
don't like them myself, but w some big rooms and furniture layouts there's no other way to avoid extension cords all over.
I throw a few thoughts at you also.
It is important to acclimaitze the flooring to the house, but that also presents a potential problem. Most flooring comes from the mill at about 7% moisture, which is considerably less than most house humidity levels when finished. But consider these moisture issues prior or at the time of flooring install; propane heaters, drywall taping, daily in and out travel intoduce alot of moisture into a house during construction. I have seen subfloor moisture over 25% at the time of flooring install. To bring in wood flooring at 7% for a week is asking for trouble if you let it sit for week then install. If you can bring your subfloor moisture down to 10-12% you will have less potential problems of the flooring soaking up moisture then drying out after install.
Glue will not help and may cause more problems if the flooring is not properly dry. To my mind glue under hardwood flooring is unnecessary and potentially detrimental to the finished product. Keep with the rosin paper. It works admirably at keeping squeaks at bay.
Most subfloor these days are plywood or other engineered wood byproduct. These serve as good a vapour barrier as 6mil poly. The danger is the uneven moisture potential at the subfloor level and the floor surface level. Rosin paper will help moderate this differential by increasing breathability under the flooring.
As to nailing, 3-4" spacing is too much; keep it to half that @ 6-8"walk good
I started yesterday installing Carliyle old growth Eastern wide pine plank flooring here. 10-15".
They told me to use "PL Premium" glue every 12" and along the edges(or 30# felt paper). I'm also using hand made 3" cut nails in the face of the flooring.
Looks too awesome for words and is harder to install than I imagined.
PS...not t&G......all square edges. Thats how I ordered it to stay in tune with the rest of the house.
PSS...I lied.......the rest of the house is lap jointed but I decieded to change that detail.
Be floored
andy