Oak Flooring ATTENTION FLOOR INSTALLERS

Hi all,
I just had my oak floors redone in my house (sanded, sealed, poly) and today, prior to the last coat of poly going down, I noticed what looks like black pencil lines in the floor. Of course I could not wipe them away because they now had a prior coat of poly already on them.
When I pointed these pencil looking lines out to the guy (there are several of them in randon directions, in random locations… they range in length from a few inches to the longest being 6 feet) he said that he could not do anything about it because these were actually lines (cuts) from a razor blade. he said to get rid of those lines I would have to replace the boards.
I have a problem with his answer because wouldnt their sanding have gotten any razor scuffs or “cuts” out? I have a feeling it is more like something scraped the floor, a machine they use, or their vacuum, etc……..
Does his answer sound like bull? Of course I am in a world of hurt now because they put down the thrid coat of poly today so they are essentially done and paid in full.
Would razor lines show up as pencil looking lines?
Replies
Entirely possible.
Could be somebody was cutting something on the floor (maybe used to be wall/wall carpet there) with a utility knife and not protection ( no brain either) and cut into the floor. It is possible to have done this deep enough so that it was too deep to sand out.
It is also possible that he is full of BS
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Thanks.
But would that actually look like a faint lead pencil line? Have you seen that before?
yes and yes. That sounds about right without seeing it in person. Piffin explained it best.
So in your opinion, does this make my argument weak for a call back? Is there something the sanding crew could have done, should they have noticed this and sanded more, or would it not have even mattered?
Thanks
well.... They were there to make money. In a perfect world, they could have noticed it, told you about it, and waited till you let them know what you wanted to do. Chances are high that they didn't see it till the finish went on and by then it's pretty much too late. It's also possible that they could have done the damage them selves, but trying to prove that will be difficult. What was the condition of the floor prior to re-finishing? Was it covered by carpet or sheet flooring? The cuts often occur when removing these. Also, cutting drywall or insulation on the floor usually results in a few stray knife marks. The cuts may very well be too deep to sand out as Piffin mentioned. Staining the floor on the next re-finish may hid them, but probably not as good as a nice area rug. ;)
Point well taken. It is actually a house that I just purchased, and given the condition of it when I purchased it... I cant doubt that those things happened (cutting insulation on the floor, cutting a carpet, etc.). More than likely, those things did occur, I can only guess.
I do feel the guys did a good job on the floors, they were a recommend from a good friend.
I guess area rugs will have to do.... I guess some things we need to learn how to live with because at this point I really do not have the time, or the $$$$ to have someone come back and replace floor boards. In any event..... thanks for talking me off the ledge.... hahahahah
When I did an addition and remodel several years ago I put down 700 ft of beautiful white oak. Sanding and finishing it was the only part of the project I didn't do myself. I was not entirely pleased with the results - you could see circular scratches from the big orbital sander(like a floor buffer) that was used.But within a few months, I didn't notice, and now 5 years later, day to day use has rendered those initial imperfections completely invisible!My only point is that initially the floor seemed like a piece of fine furniture and should have been perfect - but I soon realized that really it is just a floor.:)
Thanks for the reply because you are 100% right. I guess I sometimes, like you said, feel that the floor should be prestine and perfect because of the work that was done. But once couches are in there, tables, I guess you wont even notice what my eye can see.
I guess from being around this business my eye has been too trained to see things that are amiss (ex. I can tell when something is out of level by an 1/8 inch or so). I am cursed.... hahha
Thanks again for the reply and the excellent points.
Razor cut are tricky to remove but I have not run into any that could not be sanded out. They are hard to see with out getting down on hands and knees looking for them. That is the nice thing about putting down a natural oil stain before the poly it makes things like that stand out and you can correct them with further sanding. If they are random all over the place they are from cutting sheet tock or insulation, If they are mainly on the edges with one going in a straight line across the room it is from padding. Bottom line they messed up and should redo the job, or a big discount. If they could not of gotten them out they should of got you over to the site and explained that they were too deep to sand out cause the floor was on the third sanding.A seasoned finisher Know to look for them as well a list of other things.The last floor I did had them from padding I got them all out.Wallyo
From such a diverse group of posters to this site, I am often impressed by their common sense and wisdom. At other times I am equally impressed by their humor. Thanks
Builder NY
<grin> of course if those floors had been shellaced instead of poly the fix would take less than 5 minutes and not involve any sanding..
BSScratches in the wood deep under WHATEVER finish means removing the finish first, then sanding deep enough to make it disappear.
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OY VAY Here we go again
AGREE
Scratches in the wood deep under WHATEVER finish means removing the finish first, then sanding deep enough to make it disappear.
In this old house that I just bought we had some really ugly green shag carpet down. really ugly, I did mention that didn't I!
My wife tore it up and underneath it was oak flooring that had probably been installed in the 1930's. Shellac floor no less - a job that Frenchy would have been proud of!
Well the carpet pad had left some sort of residue that I couldn't get up with any chemical, either illegal or legal, didn't matter, the residue would not come off.
I did the standard test to see what the finish was and as I suspected it was indeed shellac, well I figured that since I was going to replace these oak floors with something period appropriate I would just get down on my hands and knees and smear the finish around. Four hours latter I has some pretty good looking floors.
I know, get to the point............
While smearing the old shellac around I got near the walls/mop board and I discovered that the fool that had installed the carpet must have laid down his pad across the room, from baseboard to baseboard. Then he cut the damn pad short of the tack strip with what I would guess was a utility knife or carpet knife but none the less it left a nice little scratch around the perimeter of the room. If he would have been a little neater about it I could sell it as a decorative accent but really it is what it is, a scratch around the room!
No real message here but I thought I'd share the story. :)
Oh, and your right, shellac didn't make any difference, its nice but it can not stop a fool with a knife!
Doug
Piffin
With shellac you can do localized finish removal , sand the damaged area and new shellac melts right into old shellac making an invisable repair! Not posible with poly..
Just out of curiosity, what are the downsides of shellac?You preach all of the benefits, but I imagine there are some issues. If it has no downside, I would expect that every one would be using it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon If you want to know more just do a search "Frenchy and shellac" that should provide you with hours of reading. This come up about once a week anytime a flooring question is posted.Wallyo
Jon,
There are several although none serious..
First is booze. If you spill booze on shellac because it has alcohol in it you have a relatively small window to wipe it up without deterioration of the finish.. How much depends.. if you drink 100 proof scotch neat and pour some on the floor you'd better wipe it up right away.. 100 proof is 50% alcohol and so your window is minutes.. <grin> what are you doing wasting good scotch anyway?
Beer, wine, or mixed drinks you have more time because they may be as little as 3.2% alcohol which will take a much longer period of time to react.
Second is cleaners containing ammonia, they will quickly remove shellac. Well and battery acid and a few other things I can think of so don't use battery acid or ammonia based cleaners..
Finally is water.. Now water has to be on shellac for a long time to turn the shellac white. Several hours isn't enough. I've had puddles of water on my shellac floor for hours and a wipe up with towels only removed the dust. The one time my finish managed to turn white I set a drink on a timber and left it there sweating all night untill the next day about mid morning..
In all cases the repair is extremely simple . Simply wipe up the damaged finish with denatured alcohol and reapply.. since new shellac melts right into old shellac it makes for an invisable repair. so it's easy to do spot repairs and never be able to tell exactly where they were.
There is one other problem with shellac,
IT dries so fast it's extremely easy to apply poorly.
I've found a solution to that problem that's worked well for all those I've shown the technique. Simply over thin (2 parts denatured alcohol to one part Zinsser's Bullseye) and flood it on. Really fast and not carefully! (seems wrong to so many good painters they simply can't bring themselves to do it) Never go back, never retouch, if you miss a spot or leave a holiday , keep going, never go back! the next coat will melt right into the first coat and make an invisable repair..
If you go back the shellac is already drying (yes! that fast) and it will start clumping up.
Don't worry about runs or drips or anything! The shellac is so thin and the next coat remelts the first coat so they aren't visable..
I know isn't it wonderful? A paint that fixes your mistakes!Dries quickly and isn't toxic! Scratches disappear so easy you'll be tempted to do repairs as palor tricks when guests come over.. (remember to say abra cadabra alakazam when small children are present)
I wish I was a shellac salesman or even better had invented it.. But it's just so much fun I've got to share it with everyone..
I know that, but you won't do it in no five minutes!
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Just a question to try and determine the true scale of the problem: Are these marks something you will notice when you have furniture/stuff in the space or are they things you notice because you are inspecting the floor at a microscopic level?
I've found that it is really easy to find things to be unhappy about when I'm inspecting contractor's work at a microscopic level. I'm a huge perfectionist and have to ask myself this question constantly. If it is something that is really truly noticable, I might try to find a reasonable fix - which doesn't sound possible at this stage of your renovation. If it won't be noticable, then let it go. Focus on keeping the really important stuff at the level of perfection.
*Edited to add* Nevermind my post, seems you've already answered my question in a previous post.
Edited 8/16/2008 9:04 am by Jen
I agree with you Jen, and yes i am the same way as you. I look at things with an eye towards perfection, and as I have learned over the years with homes.... no such thing!!!!
It is not a bad thing, some throw rugs, some tables, you wont notice a thing. And at this point, and 8 months after closing on the home... I want to get in there.
Consider that they may be pencil lines put there intentionally with the idea that the sanding process when correctly done would remove them, and your sanding process was not done correctly. Pretty unlikely, but pencil lines are used to gauge some material removal.
Pristine just ain't gonna happen when you're refinishing floors... refreshed or revived, but not pristine. Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
this is pretty common from when carpet layers have laid carpet at some tome they just throw the pad down and take a knife and cut to fit.who cares if it scars the wood,it'coverd with carpet.
now you come along and refinish the floors,if you could of seen them before it could of been sanded out,but they don't show up well until that new stuff hits.
like someone said 2 years from now you won't be able to find them.larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
What was the name of the company? I pretty know most of the flooring companies on LI. Over the years I've done a gazillion floors here on LI and the floor guys for some odd reason never do the installations...just the finishing so a lot of my customers have bought their own floors...had me install them (within other projects) and actually have their own floor finishing guys which is fine by me...but I have met a real lot of em'. Some are serious butchers!!
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