I haven’t started the deck on the house yet. I bought a bunch of 2x sill plates of the new ACQ stuff. I put in galvanized anchor bolts, but I still don’t feel right about using the PT stuff.
Does anybody see problems with using rough sawn (or even planed) 1-1/2″ thick white oak for sill plates?. It will be green, of course, but I’d feel a lot better using that than using the PT stuff. Cost isn’t really an issue.
Replies
Even though white oak is more rot resistant than other species, and certainly less $ when you get it rough sawn green off the mill, I think you'll find it rots ALOT faster than PT. Especially in a sill plate (or do you mean header) application.
BIL and contractor friend both used rough sawn green white oak on decks a few years ago and have already replaced with green treated or ACQ.
Deck boards, maybe...but those are easier to replace.
> Even though white oak is more rot resistant than other species, and certainly less $ when you get it rough sawn green off the mill, I think you'll find it rots ALOT faster than PT. Especially in a sill plate (or do you mean header) application.
> BIL and contractor friend both used rough sawn green white oak on decks a few years ago and have already replaced with green treated or ACQ.
In my experience, Red oak will rot fast, White oak will not rot. Perhaps the wood was read oak. Most people cannot tell the difference, and for commercial applications such as flooring, they are both treated and marketed the same even though they have different characteristics to the trained eye.
Is black locust available where you are? That stuff's not only been found in Egyptian tombs, it was used to make them! Well, not really, but it's just about never going to rot, and it's pretty cheap in the north east.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Andy,
Black locust is available here (southern VT) but not commercially. I'd have to find the logs somewhere and have them milled, or mill them myself. I have a decent stock of 4/4 black locust, but nothing larger. I have been using it for outdoor furniture, bench seats, and door sills for outside doors.
Kills your planer blades, though.
I guess I'll stick to the PT. Bummer.
Jon
I hadn't heard of the Egyptians using black locust. I know they had some cedar in the Old Kingdom, and they re-used their lumber. (Either that or they left it stacked and stickered a lot longer than we do.) Some of the cedar carbon dates to at least 400 years older than the tomb in which it was used.
As for plates, out here we have redwood, which works extremely well. I have untreated redwood plates nearly 80 years old, no problems. Another way to avoid the corrosive ACQ problem -- if you don't have an inspection issue -- is to apply Jasco's Termin-8 copper napthenate to your regular framing lumber. I used it on some Doug fir that was supposed to be temporary and in direct contact with the ground. It's still there and doing fine after about 30 years.
-- J.S.
Jon, I was kidding about the Egyptians. I'm pretty sure the only locust available there is the kind of the Biblical plagues.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Is black locust available where you are? That stuff's not only been found in Egyptian tombs, it was used to make them! Well, not really, but it's just about never going to rot, and it's pretty cheap in the north east.
I'm waiting for someone to find a way to grow Osage Orange straight enough to mill it for lumber. You won't find it in Egyptian tombs, but you will find it in the form of 100+yo fenceposts still standing strong.
Give me a long enough, straight enough piece and I'd use it for sill. More rot resistant than redwood.
jt8
I'm with you on not feeling right about the PT, Jon.
I won't use it unless there is no other option. So far, I haven't discovered that situation.
I work under the UBC, which says I need to use treated wood or a wood with similar naturally occuring rot resistance.
Cedar passes muster, as does redwood. As Andy pointed out, so does black locust.
Oak does not, but there may still be a way you can use it.
Remember back before PT was being jammed down our throats (or somewhere)it was common for a builder to get the concrete or block stemwall well up out of the ground, lay down a sill sealer, occasionally a sheet metal termite guard, and then use doug-fir?
I've installed plenty of it. OK, OK, so I'm getting old. <G>
Those houses are all still doing pretty well as far as I can tell.
I asked my building inspector about this. His interpretation of the code was that there is no requirement for PT, further, that there was no specific requirement for rot-resistant bottom plates as long as they were not in direct contact with the foundation. As far as he was concerned, the sill sealer removed the concern about direct contact.
Now I know a lot of folks in especially termite-prone areas aren't going to like this idea. That's cool, don't use it.
But for those of us in more hospitable climates who do not risk being devoured by Formosan termites if we hold still too long during coffee break, this works, and it's legal. If you're under inspection, I'd check with the inspector first, though.
DRC
delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. -Mark Twain, author
and humorist (1835-1910)
Can't afford redwood, being on the east coast, but I have a lot of white oak.
The closest my sill gets to the ground is 12". Most of it is 18" or more. I will be using a sill sealer.
No termites up here. No building inspector either. That doesn't mean I won't build to code, unless the code just doesn't make any sense. I'll take proven performance over code requirements until someone proves to me otherwise.
That said, I'm still back at square one. What to use? I do have a stack of 2x PT ready to go, but I'd be more than happy to lay that stuff down as mud boards before I have to put it on my house.
I suppose I could throw down some ipe' or purpleheart....yeah. Right.
12 inches off the ground, sill sealer, no termites, no inspector . . . you are building in heaven. <G>So why not the oak if you have plenty?I've torn apart houses in the mid-Atlantic (building codes, inspectors, Big-T Termites, humidity that runs liquid, stone foundations, every Depression-era farmer-built construction practice you can think of), and where the native second-growth pine was kept dry, it worked fine for the 55 years that I know it was there.DRCSubstitute d*mn every time you're inclined to write very; your editor will
delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. -Mark Twain, author
and humorist (1835-1910)
Can't afford redwood, being on the east coast, but I have a lot of white oak.
You are careful there's no sapwood in there, right? I've seen 100 yr old houses here with white oak bottoms, still in good shape. Generally sitting on brick that was crumbling.
For me, PT is solely to keep the inspector happy. No other use for it.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Soley to keep the inspector happy?
More like to keep the pt manufacturers happy <g>
Dave
I think I get your drift, reason for the code, but I have no direct relationship with the PT manufacturers, only the building inspector. Therefore...
Of course I don't think wood makes a very good house material anyway. Concrete for me.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
35 years ago when I first moved to south Florida we used redwood anywhere that called for rot resistant wood. Porch posts, all fascias, trim, etc. I haven't seen a piece of redwood in probably 20 years now. None of our lumber companies stock any and are pretty discouraging about ordering it. The last time I was able to get a price it was about $12.00 a board foot and that was not con heart. What do you pay for redwood?Down here we call cedar our retirement account since we know we'll be replacing it every 4 or 5 years. I think I could make a living advertising myself as a cedar replacement specialist. I'm not trying to insult anyone but I wouldn't put it on my own house if it was free. Are we getting the garbage since we're so far away?
Rick,I'll check with the lumberyard and see what the current price difference is from redwood to PT. As I recall, the RW is a little more expensive, but not much. Redwood is cheap in the western US.Probably about the price difference of stainless steel nails, I don't know. <G>The slight upcharge is worth it to me. I don't like PT for a whole bunch of reasons.In any case, your point is well taken, and agreed to. If I lived in Florida, I probably would see things the same way. That's what I meant by referring to different locales.As many have pointed out, regional differences are important to learn about. That's one of the many reasons I like hanging out here.As Gabe pointed out some time in the last year or so, "...it is interesting to note how often the problem in one part of the country is the solution in another part of the country."DRCSubstitute d*mn every time you're inclined to write very; your editor will
delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. -Mark Twain, author
and humorist (1835-1910)
Yes, a lot can be garnered as to the location of a poster in respect to questions and answers here. Almost necessary to communicate. Certainly helps.
By the way Dave, I couldn't help but notice you don't have a location listed in your profile.
Might you be shanghaied into filling in a state or region as to your locality?
Cheers
be a shanger
hmm. Guess not.
A lot of hardazzes hang out here.
Hello Jon,
In my part of North Carolina all the old framhouses are built on white oak 10x10 sill beams (set on rocks usually). Many of these have been around for more than 200 years, and there are plenty of termites here. I've also found white oak logs in the woods that were down for years, the sap wood was rotten, but the heartwood was still good. As for me, I'm going with the white oak on the deck framing and decking (although I will still probably use the treated lumber for ths sills, just because I don't want to try to convince the building inspector that white oak is a naturally rot resistant wood [code does allow rot resistant wood species to be used for sills].
Regards,
Roger <><
white oak heartwood will outlast you and your children in this application - - I'd have no reservations (except the heartwood part)