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Discussion Forum

Obtaining building permits…

| Posted in Business on October 1, 2003 08:37am

All the sudden I’m full of questions!!

I have recently had a few bad experiences with building inspectors and local gov’t drones.  Strike that, I have always had bad experiences with these schmucks.

In the latest episode, the zoning guy hasn’t released a permit in 3-1/2 weeks!  I generally make it a habit of not bugging them but they generally say allow two weeks for the application to go through.  So I call the guy, and he says he hasn’t gotten around to it yet, and that the law allows him much longer than 3 weeks.  I swear it was the first thing out of his mouth. 

So I got to thinking.  I usually encourage the HO to get their own permit and I would be happy to fill out the forms.  I used to just figure the permit fee into my bids, then got smart and started alotting a few hours time as well.  The more I think about it, even on a small job you have to figure 20 or more hours for the initial paperwork, rework, inspections, being stood up on appointments, inspector late to appointments, scheduling appointments, snafus, etc.

So I got to options, one, I spec in the contract that they get the permit listing themselves as the prime gc.  I know some of you will not be thrilled with this but I have reasons that I will go into if you wish.  Or two, I factor in an exhorbitant fee for handling permits and inspections, with an equal discount if they do it themselves.

Its either that or I’m going to look for another occupation.  Anyone have any thoughts?

Tom

I’m here to help the humans.

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Replies

  1. JohnSprung | Oct 01, 2003 11:59pm | #1

    Here in LA it got so bad that we have professional permit pullers who do nothing but run paperwork through the system.  Then about six years ago, a new guy took over LADBS, and he's made it easy to get permits for little jobs so that contractors and even homeowners can actually do it.  For major work, you still need to pay the puller -- it's about as much as the permit.  They're much better on inspections now, call them today and they'll almost always be there tomorrow, the day after at the latest.

    -- J.S.

    1. xMikeSmith | Oct 02, 2003 03:32am | #2

      tommy... in RI it depends on the town.. we only have one code.. but 39 towns and cities with 39 different building departments and regulations...

       most  are same day service..

       some are two or three days... some sound like yours..

       some require an engineer's stamp to change a friggin window header....  even though the spec is listed in the building code..

       after awhile you figure out which town and cities you have to add to the fee structure for..

       i don't like letting the HO get the permits.... they don't neccessarily have the right sense of urgency.. or they wind up getting me involved anyway, so i might as well do it myself and go one -on-one with the inspectorMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

      1. TommyB12 | Oct 02, 2003 03:56am | #3

        after awhile you figure out which town and cities you have to add to the fee structure for..

        Around here thats all of them.  I might work in 10 municipalities in a year.  A while back, there were some that made you file and pay local EIT if you work in their municipality.  I'm talking 4 quarterlies per municipality plus 1% on any money you made.  Somehow that one went away.

        We also have to file a form for I think its the state energy department and pay I think $80.  Basically it make the gc responsible for the energy efficiency of the house.  It states that the HO may request to have the structure tested by the state, and if there are any deficiencies, ever, the gc is responsible to correct them.  Which means, I am responsible for the insulation, sheathing, windows, doors, weatherstripping, etc. basically forever.   I am comfortable with standing behind my performance as a gc, but not the manufacturing tolerances of my suppliers with regard to replacing some of these items.  It would be a mess to sort out.  Imagine putting in a wall of windows, couple 8' french doors with transoms, r19 in the walls, r/38 in the ceilings, and they come the HO desides he'll take them up on the free testing, just to see what the report says, and it comes back with a problem?

        My current situation is that the customer seems to feel that I have somehow dropped the ball because the permit didn't come back in the two weeks that they said that the township said it would.  I don't like starting a job off on a bad foot, for the lack of a timely permit, when I didn't even get a chance to perform yet.

        You don't even want to know the rest of the story.  This is sure to be my job from hell, but I'm trying to stay positive.  I almost backed out of a similar circumstance last year but it turned out really positive.

        Thanks for the rant.  And I won't be pulling anymore permits.Tom

        I'm here to help the humans.

        1. jimblodgett | Oct 02, 2003 05:19pm | #9

           Tommy, you said "I don't like starting a job off on a bad foot, for the lack of a timely permit, when I didn't even get a chance to perform yet."

          That's the hardest thing for me, putting my name on someone else's performance.  Maybe it would help if you say to the customer right up front that some permits come back in 2 weeks, some you can get right over the counter, and sometimes it can take a month or more, it's out of your controll but you'll do your best to get it through the system.

          That way, you and the customer are in it together.  You are both disappointed by having to wait - not fun, but understandable from their point of view, instead of the customer thinking "this guy told me he'd get started in two weeks, two weeks comes around and now he gives me an excuse of waiting for a permit"

          See, I think the biggest thing I deal with is customer's fears.  Like the fear that they are gonna have their house torn into by someone who doesn't know what they're doing.  Many people don't see us as decent people trying to make an honest living.  We have to do everything we can to earn their trust and respect.  That starts with clear communication.

          Planning the job and filing the necessary paperwork IS a part of our profession, a very important part.  The job "starts" way before you arrive on the job with a truck full of tools ready to sweat, spit and swear.

          Edited 10/2/2003 12:34:25 PM ET by jim blodgett

  2. hasbeen | Oct 02, 2003 04:18am | #4

    It varies everywhere.

    I just got a permit to build my own home here in small town Colorado.  I took two sets of prints to the inspector (one man building department).  He asked why I brought in two sets.  I said well in lots of places the building dept keeps one and stamps the other as approved, sometimes with various notes on requirements.  He handed one back to me and said "No use me keeping this for a couple of weeks pretending to look at it.  You know what you're gonna do, anyway."  He then proceeded to tell me which inspections he "cared" about.  City was glad to take my money, though. 

    I used to work in Scottsdale, AZ.  They had what they called the "One Stop Shop".  You could usually get all permits in one building in two or three hours!

    Some things really are better in a rural place.

    INSPECTORS?!?!?!  We don't need no stinking inspectors!

    Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

    1. BUSTER | Oct 02, 2003 05:24am | #5

      Hey-there, Hasbeen.  I am new to this "forum" but these responses from you and the others I have heard soooo-many times that I would like you know first of all...I can only imagine the structures that would be constructed w/o inspectors and plan reviewers (which I am both).  If your honest w/ yourself,  you can also!  The significant fire/life & safety deficiencies I see repeatedly on plans and in the field...makes me actually feel as if there actually is a need for us.

      Enough said about that...I actually "used" to work for a living...so I know what you and the others have had to "put up with".  When I came-across situations like some of those mentioned,  I never hesitated to go above that individual.  The results,  in almost every case was positive !  I found that having my "stuff" together and knowing the code(s) was the real "breaker" when dealing w/ those "cowboys" or "gals" whom choose to create codes rather than enforce them.  ( I still find it amuseing at times that the juris. actually called me for a job...after so much grief I gave them).

      Good luck,  I can't say I envy you at all..it's just too bad for you and any of the others having to put up w/ all of the stuff you've mentioned. 

      1. UncleDunc | Oct 02, 2003 06:25am | #6

        >> ... imagine the structures that would be constructed w/o inspectors and plan reviewers.

        Yep, yep, we sure couldn't get along without those reviews and inspections. Before reviews and inspections came along, buildings were falling down about as fast as we could put 'em up. Fact is, most folks were afraid to live in houses, felt like they were better off in buffalo hide tents. Why, my grandfather never did live in a house. Wouldn't set foot in one until they started reviewing and inspecting them, and even then he'd only visit, wouldn't sleep in one.

        1. Ruby | Oct 02, 2003 06:42am | #7

          Talking about waiting!!!

          An engineer from the electric company came by a month ago and told us what they were going to do about service to the house site, change a 10 K transformer to the new well site and put a 320 in it's place. Said they will be here in two or three weeks.

          I started calling this week, the fifth one and finally got someone today and the engineer had forgotten all about this order, no work order to be found, no one knew anything!!!

          They offered to send him again when he get's back but I requested another engineer.

          So a new one came, looked, decided that the first one's suggestion was a good idea and said they would do it as soon as possible.

          Any bets on if and when?

          Reading these stories, I will say that anyone building a house needs to order an extra large halo. Working at being a saint with endless patience is trying.

        2. hasbeen | Oct 03, 2003 04:20am | #10

          That was the funniest thing I've read here in a while!!!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

      2. hasbeen | Oct 03, 2003 04:32am | #11

        Welcome to BT, Tigger!

        I would agree that there would always be some unscrupuluous folks out there building dangerous stuff if there were no inspections...  But, I'd also say that the codes require a lot of stuff that falls into the same category as warnings on wood stoves that they can be hot when in use.

        Having started into the trades in the mid 70's I did a lot of remodeling on older homes.  Somehow they managed to stand up without the benefit of inspection.

        I'm not as sharp on building details as some you'll find here at BT, but I clearly know more than most of the building inspectors who've inspected my work.  You get sold a bill of goods when you become an inspector and what's delivered is not always what was on the invoice.

        I don't doubt that you try to do a good job and that your work sometimes protects people.  Don't let my rural attitudes put you off from enjoying this forum!  A little thick skin helps out here....

        Again, Welcome to BT!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

  3. andybuildz | Oct 02, 2003 03:44pm | #8

    I waited two months for mine......Mostly it has to do with too few inspectors hired by the towns...The towns don't care about these typ of politics.

    I was soooooo lucky to get a fantastic inspector for the very first time in 27 years.

    And he's good at his job to boot...and may I add he's not five billion years old like all the other ones I've had.

    Be patient,

                    andy

    We're being trained through our incarnations-trained to seek love, trained to seek light,trained to see the grace in suffering

    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  4. brownbagg | Jan 20, 2004 07:18am | #12

    I went and got my permit for my shop last friday. Total material will be about $6000 if I had labor about $8000. permit office, value shop at $12000. That what my property tax will be base on. No matter what reciepts I have, they just steal the property tax value.

    nuthing but happy thought.

    1. davidmeiland | Jan 20, 2004 08:23am | #13

      They probably use some sort of square footage minimum, no matter how cheap you build it you get the minimum, like when you want a yard of mud delivered it costs $250 and so do three yards.

  5. MajorWool | Jan 21, 2004 07:15am | #14

    On "COPS" tonight they visited a business that had a sign on the wall which read "Make Welfare as hard to get as a building permit." It was in the Seattle area.

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