We have a set of switched outlets around the living room. That is, one switch (actually two three way switches) turn power on/off to a number of outlets (I think about 3 of them).
Works great for table lamps, instead of having to turn on the recessed lights, etc.
But a few months ago, we were measuring for a couch, suspending the tape measure a good 4′ over to the wall to see if we had room for the proposed new couch. The tape measure gave out, and the metal head fell and — wouldn’t you know it — fell right on the prongs to the lamp that was plugged in. Apparently the lamp plug was out just enough to leave room for the tape measure end to land out them. How freakish is that!
Any rate, sparks flew, I dropped the tape measure darn quick, and then kicked it the tape away from the plug. The outlet was blackened and the lamp plug notched where the tape measure head landed.
After cleaning up, I tried the outlet again (with a different lamp), and it no longer switched. Now it’s always own. We stopped using the outlet, and I just today replaced the 15A receptacle with a new one — configured exactly like the old (same wires, the tab between the outlets wasn’t broken, so I guess both were on the same circuit).
But it’s still always on now. The switch does nothing.
Any ideas what the issue could be? Do I have to pull every outlet and switch? Where do I begin? Or is there a circuit test I should try?
Thanks for any help.
Replies
Sounds like the overcurrent welded the switch closed. Should be a simple job to replace it.
Scott.
Thanks. This room was done by an electrician, so I only copied the replacement outlet to match exactly as the original. I am aware of the roll of the tabs, but the clearly weren't broken, so I'm guessing they were both switched (which I agree is a little different than expected).Thanks for the tip on upside-down installation. I've seen that more and more, and wasn't sure why. Makes sense now.It's just odd that suddenly the switch is no longer working.
Thanks. Didn't notice this first comment on the overcurrent and welded switch. So, I should replace the switch. There's two of them (given that it's a three way circuit). Is there someway to test which switch is at issue, or should I just replace both anyway?
I'd just replace both; they're cheap.Scott.
Generally if a switch is welded this way there's a difference in the "feel" of the switch. And of course one can use a continuity tester to determine if the switch is defective. But switches are cheap enough that you might as well just replace your "best bet" first, then others, until you find the problem.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
If one three-way switch is welded "on", the other switch would still turn the lamp on and off.Since there are three outlets controlled by the same switches, then all three lamps would be on all the time if the problem were in the switches.You said that the tab on the old outlet was not broken, so you left the new one intact too. Did you perhaps look only at the tab on the neutral side of the old outlet? It's the hot side that keeps the two receptacles separated. take a look and see if the tab on the other side of the old outlet is broken.Did you find one white wire and two other colors (black, red, orange, blue, yellow, purple) connected to the old outlet? That would be a three-wire circuit with a shared neutral, one hot all the time and one switched wire. If the hot-side tab is not broken, both receptacles would get power from the hot wire no matter what the switches are doing.BruceT
Both tabs are intact, and there are 4 wires off this outlet -- two white a black and a red. I have not checked the other outlets on the circuit (also, I am not sure I have a wiring diagram, so I am not sure which ones are in the same circuit, because not all the outlets are).Maybe I'll try replacing the switches and if that doesn't work, call for an electrician (or take a crash course on checking continuity).
There is a possibility that your "3 way" is actually some kind of electronic switching (with a shorted triac) but that will be apparent when you look at the switches.
"but that will be apparent when you look at the switches."Most of the time yes, but not always with being very detailed.There are some that have a standard toggle switch and and a small slide beside it that might not be noticed.And there is another style that have a toggle handle, but instead of a snap action is move linearly over it range dimming the light and and the end is a click to turn it off or switch the 3-way. First time I ran into one of those it took me a little while to figure out what was going on. Push it "off", but not far enough to click and then the light would not work from the 3 way at the other end..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Take a look inside the box and see how many cables come into the box and how many and what color wires are in each cable.
You still haven't answered Bill's first question about that.
What you describe makes no sense.
If that receptacle is on the end of the run, you should have a red, black and white wire with a bare ground, coming out of one cable that would enter the box. If it's not on the end of the run you should have more wires in the box.
If you feel comfortable doing so. Disconnect the wires from the receptacle and connect a tester between the red wire and a white wire and try switching it. The red wire is usually connected to the switching circuit. If that doesn't switch off and on, try the black and white wires. If you find out that one of those combos works properly with the switch, the break off tab on the hot side will need to be removed or both parts of the receptacle will always be hot.
It sounds like you have a typical 3 wire switched circuit, but I don't know where the extra white wire came from.
"Did you find one white wire and two other colors (black, red, orange, blue, yellow, purple) connected to the old outlet? That would be a three-wire circuit with a shared neutral, one hot all the time and one switched wire. If the hot-side tab is not broken, both receptacles would get power from the hot wire no matter what the switches are doing."That would not be a "shared neutral". Shared neutral is a common neutral where the 2 hots are on different legs (and breakers) and the neutral only carries difference current.While that is possible is a case like this is would be very, very rare in a case likes, general purpose receptacles in a living room.Most likely these ways hot and switched hot are all of the same circuit.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"That would not be a "shared neutral". Shared neutral is a common neutral where the 2 hots are on different legs (and breakers) and the neutral only carries difference current."Yes it would, and I have found switched outlets wired that way, with switched side wired to one leg and "hot" side wired to the other with a shared neutral. Now that you mention it, the red-black-white could be two hots from the same bus, but whenever I have encountered it (other than between three-way switches)the hots were from different buses with red black white entering the switch box, not split from a black white pair.BruceT
Edited 4/21/2009 12:52 am by brucet9
same wires, the tab between the outlets wasn't broken, so I guess both were on the same circuit).
The little tab between the two hot terminal screws should be broken off. Assuming that you want only one half of the receptacle to be switched and the other half hot all the time.
One other comment....what happened to you is exactly why it is recommended that you install receptacles with the grounding prong up instead of down. It wouldn't have made any difference in your case (with a lamp) but it could help prevent that from happening if a cord with a grounding plug was being used.
Edited 4/19/2009 2:25 pm ET by BoJangles
>>>Assuming that you want only one half of the receptacle to be switched and the other half hot all the time.That also assumes there's another hot conductor there to power the unswitched side of the plug, otherwise I'd leave the tab in place.Scott.
That also assumes there's another hot conductor there to power the unswitched side of the plug, otherwise I'd leave the tab in place.
That's true. But I can't ever remember seeing a switched receptacle in a situation like that where both halves were controlled by the switch. Maybe the OP will clarify the situation.
You know, we had a similar thing happen to us. My wife had a necklace drop down on top of an outlet with a plug that was partially pulled out and I wondered about the ground at that time.
Why is it common practice in residential (at least in the area where I life) to put the ground down?
With the necklaces it likely wouldn't make any difference -- the chain would end up contacting the "hot" anyway as it fell across the contacts.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
When I saw for the first time an outlet installed, by an electrician, with the ground pin on top I questioned him on it. His answer was to prevent exactly what happened to you,
"Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/Barlow
Ok you need to do some observation and give EXACTING ANSWERS.
You said that there are 3 receptacles in the room that are switched.
And it seems that all 3 of them are switched together with one set of 3-way switches. Is this true?
Have you checked the receptacles? Do they turn on and off with the swtiches?
On the receptacle that you replaced.
Assume that it was wired with cables and not conduit how many cables come into the box?
How many wires are in each cable and what wire, by color, was connected to what what part of the receptacle or other wire?
Did either the old receptacle or the replacement use "back -stab" connections where the wire is just pushed into a hole in the back?
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe