No, this has nothing to do with “sized for spacing”.
In New Orleans a few weeks ago building for H4H. I went to the 1/2″ OSB sheathing pile and discovered the sheets were 4′ x 10′-1-1/2″.
I had never seen that dimension before, however I discovered it was very handy. We were applying sheathing horizontally and the odd dimension worked pretty well yielding a lower percentage of waste than 8′ sheets when used on “less than perfect” layouts. Could be even nicer if you could get 12′ – like drywall – the longer the better.
Checked here at home and only got blank stares at the yard.
Ever see it?
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Replies
How can 10'1-1/2" work out with less waste than 8' sheets using 16" centers?
Vertical
He said horizontally.Joe Carola
We were applying sheathing horizontally and the odd dimension worked pretty well yielding a lower percentage of waste than 8' sheets when used on "less than perfect" layouts.
I need some new glasses.
I know it sounds strange that this dimension worked out well in our case, but it did. Although we did have to cut every sheet - inefficient labor but lower material waste. Remember - H4H = free labor, but they pay for materials.
The dimensions of the houses were odd (at best) from a design standpoint - 24'2" wide x 17'8" deep was the exterior dimension of the second floor sheathed space.
Sketch a sheathing layout for a 24'2" wall and you will start to get the picture. Keep in mind no sheathing pieces are permitted smaller than a 2 bay / 3 stud nailing.
We sheathed on the deck and then raised the walls. Employed the Larry Haun method of sheathing - overlap sheathing and trim in place - snapped lines - no measuring.
A 10'-1-1/2" sheet will span 8 studs with a 9-1/2" drop. When cutting for a staggered seam pattern the drop always seemed long enough to be useful.
In retrospect, applied vertically - a 10'-1-1/2" sheet would sheath a 9' stud wall + rim + mudsill in one shot. This length would work assuming a 3/4" subfloor and any joist size up to 2x10.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I'm glad that I'm not the one telling folks that laying sheets horizontally is more efficient! I've already went a few rounds with these guys and I couldn't get them to understand.I can say, definitively that on all 8 and 10 fs oot walls, there will be substantially less waste if the carpenters run the sheathing horizontally. The labor bill will also be less.On 9' walls, they might be able to make an argument if they have 9' sheets and are standing them vertically on a 9' wall. The labor saving might offset the material waste, but it's really too close to call. The clear winner on 9' walls with 9' sheathing is a hybrid, where the sheets are layed horizontally on some walls with window issues and run vertically on long stretches of walls with few or small openings. Most carpenters tend to be tunnel visioned once they decide to run sheathing. Instead of contemplating the most efficient way, they tend to do it all the same. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I think you will lose a lot of that efficiency when your area REQUIRES blocking in every stud bay because you elected to sheath horizontally.
Where were you at in New Orleans?I'm headed down there December 31st. I think we're going to the town of Slidell - A little north of NO.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. But do check for Greek soldiers elsewhere in its anatomy.
We were working on a project which H4H just calls "Ferry Place" - will be 14 homes when completed. Camelback style - 1 story at front of house, 2 story at rear.
Ferry Place is the street name, short 2 block street in the Carrollton area of town. Site started up in July. When we arrived there were 2 houses which were mostly dried in and 3 in varying states of framing.
We had 19 people from 2 churches with vastly varying skills. Split into 3 crews for 4 days, each crew had their "own house". Between us we managed to frame a total of about 1 house (no roof).
1st crew filled block cores on a foundation and got the 1st floor beams and floor joists mostly installed (only about 5 joists short).
2nd crew fixed some floor joists, laid subfloor and got most of the first floor walls up.
My crew installed 2nd floor joists, laid subfloor and got the second floor walls up. We then moved over to the 1st floor crew for the remainder of Friday afternoon. My crew would have done better, but were hampered by 30+ mph wind on day #3 which kept us from standing sheathed walls - we ended up building walls on the deck and working around them. Once the wind laid down - the walls went up fast.
We worked with an organization called RHINO - run by Presbyterian Disaster Assistance (PDA). RHINO gutted houses until June of 2007, then entered a partnership with H4H for rebuilding. RHINO supplies a weekly pool of labor and a place to stay; H4H supplies tools and material and runs the show at the building sites.
Google "RHINO, New Orleans" for more info on this group.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks for the info. Feel free to start a thread about it and post pics if you have any. Sounds now like we'll also be working with the Presbyterian Disaster Assistance. I'm not sure if they're working with H4H now or if it's independent. But I'm looking forward to going.
I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain. [Lily Tomlin]
PDA has been very active in the area ever since the storms. They have a number of operations going in the area. The locals tell us it is the Presbyterians, Methodists and Episcopalians that are still coming and helping rebuild.
Are you hosted and housed by RHINO at Saint Charles Avenue Presbyterian Church in New Orleans? Garden District church. They speak in code SCAPC = this church.
RHINO got going within a month or so after Katrina. SCAPC was founded by the grandfather of one of our associate pastors, she was raised in LA and got us on board fast with RHINO. The rectory, "Samuel Land House", was built behind the church and is now serving as a community hall plus housing for RHINO volunteers.
You will enjoy your experience in NO. It has changed a lot since 12/06 when I was last there - if nothing else grass has started to grow again, the traffic lights work and the vast majority of the wrecked cars are gone.
Westminster Presbyterian Church, Wilmington, DE, appears on the RHINO website as having been there more than 4 times (6 actually for RHINO plus 1 with H4H hosting), trips 8 and 9 are scheduled for January and March of 2008. January trip is oversold at 19 members, March still has space.
Beware, it is addictive -- dollars to donuts -- you will go back.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"Beware, it is addictive -- dollars to donuts -- you will go back."
Didn't take much to convince me. After the Ms. Katrina fest I was ready to go back a month later.
So when are YOU going back?
(-:
This is the website for the group we'll be working for:
http://www.pcoslidell.org/
Looks like the city is actually north of New Orleans a ways:
http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&q1=Slidell%2C+LA%2C+United+States+of+America&trf=0&lon=-89.78199&lat=30.275969&mag=7
Family reunions are all relative.
Week that spans March / April '08. Church's trip #9, my trip #3.
Volunteered to get bumped from my return flight home this last trip - scored free RT ticket on US Air in return for a two hour delay getting home.
Ran to the desk was more like it, along with 3 others from our group as soon as they made the ticket offer.
"Attention Philadelphia passengers, this flight has been oversold - ears up - ", US Air is offering a free round-" - moving - "trip ticket to any passenger" - at the desk, beaten only by one of my companions - but he cheated - he was only 6' away when the announcement started. I think he overheard something between the agents.
Good thing there were not any little old ladies in the way of that herd!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I kinda doubt I'll be able to swing another trip that soon, although I think I'd enjoy it. I was serious about starting a thread and posting pics - People would be interested in hearing about it.
The number of person's relatives is directly proportional to his fame.
Boss,
I'd like to do that. Some day I'll have to learn how to 1) post pics - I'll have them all soon, and 2) do so in a size which is dial-up friendly.
Unfortunately now is not the time as the weather is supposed to break tonight and I need to complete a siding / window replacement job which has been on hold. Customer is my next door neighbor and I'm sure he is anxious.
The Yahoo map link which you posted shows a pre-Katrina satellite photo of Ferry Place in NO. I thought there were more homes on the street, but it turns out much of the land was vacant / undeveloped. Two of the homes in the photo burned down during the flooding - one other is currently vacant and one is occupied. Not exactly prime real estate as it is next to a rail spur - but it did stay relatively dry - only a foot or so - homes did not flood. The new homes which we were working on are all raised by about 4'.
If you have not read One Dead in Attic - you probably should. Written by a columnist for the Times-Picayune. Got to read part of it at the RHINO house - it's on my Christmas list.
Katrina - is a good photo book, readily available in the NO area - shows a lot of the flooding, etc. in LA, MS, AL and FL. If you get to peek at it when you are down there - look carefully at the satellite photo of NO in the NO section - look at the streets - see how many look brown/gray vs how many are blue - blue are flooded (sky reflection in water) - look up by Lake Pontchartrain for a dry street reference. Keep in mind that the photo does not show all of NO.
Local church-provided tour guide told us that the land area flooded in NO was equal to seven times the area of Manhattan.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
True enough.
The rules which we played by:
- Sheathing could be horizontal or vertical - no blocking required at horizontal seams.
- Sheathing must span band / rim joist at 2nd floor, must cover mudsill, band / rim and at least 2' onto 1st floor studs. Sheathing reinforces "bond" at first floor.
- Minimum sheathing size was a 2 bay span / 3 stud nailed piece.
H4H solution was to sheath the first floor with 8' sheets applied vertically - covers mudsill + band + ~ 7' of the 1st floor studs.
2nd floor sheathed horizontally - meets required span at 2nd floor - end up needing about a 2' strip at the top of the second floor walls.
I suspect they are a little "sensitive" to wind resistance of the new housing.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I ran into that in Ferndale. It made sense to me to run the sheathing horizontially and the inspector did say something about no blocker on the seams.
I would have thought that if you nail the snot out of it the one seam wouldnt matter, they seemed to feel differently.
I can say, definitively that on all 8 and 10 fs oot walls, there will be substantially less waste if the carpenters run the sheathing horizontally. The labor bill will also be less.
Under the UBC codes we didn't have a penalty for running sheets horizontally in our zones here in the rocky mountain states. Now, with IRC codes there is a penalty because of the requirement for blocking on sheer walls, which essentially turn into large sections of the structure.
Until the last few years I've never put in so many pannel edge blocks, and while I'm as fast as anyone I've worked with, probably faster, the time penalty to install the blocks cancels any time or material savings, not to mention cuts down on insulation and makes the other subs cuss us when running ducts, pipes, or wires.
Good building,
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Blocks have never been part of our equation. That certainly would trump anything that I'm talking about. I'd be ordering 18' sheets! FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
We horizontal sheathed a two story with 9' walls, and after two carpenters blocked for two days we were ready to start going verticle. It's bad enough to add the blocks, but a royal pain to then get the blocks shear nailed. Probably less time if blocks are added when the wall is on the deck, but it's still a pain.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
It's code to block when sheathing horizontal where you're from?Joe Carola
Joe, I can't speak for Don but here in Or. it is the code. What is essentially stated is that the perimeter of the sheathing will be solid blocked. Doesn't matter if it runs vertical or horizontal. Have a wall 16 ft. tall sheeted vertically, or a rake wall and all the end seams must be blocked . This applies only to the shear panels (corners and every 25' of wall length) , or possibly the whole wall if it is designated as a shear wall. More detailed than I laid out but that is the essence of it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
What is essentially stated is that the perimeter of the sheathing will be solid blocked. Doesn't matter if it runs vertical or horizontal.
That makes sense to me if the sheathing is run vertical because the grain is the wrong way just like running the decking the wrong way parallel with the floor joists, but I can't see it when running the sheathing horizontally. But, you guys must have heavier winds than NJ.
This applies only to the shear panels (corners and every 25' of wall length) , or possibly the whole wall if it is designated as a shear wall.
I still don't even know what a shear wall is. We never use that word around here. We sheath horizontal with cdx and no blocking and anything special. We start at the sill and go up from there.
Even if you run vertically on 8' walls, can't you start the 8' sheet at the shoe and the top will hit the top plate and you have solid nailing and then do the same for the second floor and just fill in the box later on both floors with rips. Or, does that not meet code or shear?
Or just sheath with 9' or 10'1-1/2" sheats vertical.
Joe Carola
Joe,
It is required here to block all panel edges. That's why we run sheathing vertically.
When I was visiting Vancouver BC a few years ago they had a program on TV showing a shake test on a wall that was sheathed without blocking, like you guys do and the cameras inside showed the dyrwall flex, the windows break and you could see when they showed the exterior that the sheathing would buckle between studs.
When they showed it with panel edges blocked, the windows didn't break, the wall didn't flex (exterior) near as much, hardly at all. On the inside, the repairs would be the taping on the drywall.
It really was an eye opener how much that blocking made a difference. What the principle is, is that the edges blocked give the wall its shear strength, but the field naililng keeps that panel in plane with the wall. If the edges aren't blocked, then the buckle and the sheathing loses some of its ability to keep that wall from racking.
"That makes sense to me if the sheathing is run vertical because the grain is the wrong way just like running the decking the wrong way parallel with the floor joists"All 7/16" osb sheathing sent out to me is rated for strength on both axis. The 15/32" roof decking is not.
I'm not talking about osb, I'm talking about fir. I never use osb for anything. When I did, I ran it both ways and no blocking.Joe Carola
Notice the title of the thread. I'm curious why you use plywood instead of OSB? (I'm guessing this has been debated here already, but I'm new here) Just curious, not trying to start anything.
Notice the title of the thread.
Yes, I noticed the title of the thread, but did you notice I was talking about cdx and grain, not osb?
When I used osb, I ran them vertically and horizontally and never any blocks. We don't run cdx vertically here, we run it horizontally and no blocks
I'm curious why you use plywood instead of OSB?
Because no one that I do work for wants to use osb, they want cdx including myself when I have a say so. I have three plans here right in front of me. One plan is for a 7000 s/f house and that calls for 1/2 cdx. The second plan is for a 3600 s/f house and that calls for 7/16" min cdx or 7/16" min osb. That house I will put on whatever the builder tells me. The third plan is for a 3500 s/f addition on my brother-in-laws house and that calls for 1/2" osb, but I will not use osb, I will use 1/2" cdx because that's what I want and for me it's better. I can change to plywood if I want and have always done. The Architect doesn't care.
Joe Carola
Edited 11/30/2007 11:58 am ET by Framer
OSB has a strength axis just like ply.Why do you prefer ply was my question. If you have a plan with OSB spec'd why would you switch it to ply?
OSB has a strength axis just like ply.
There are a million arguments over that comparing which one is stronger or if they're the same and so far everyone complains about osb and rain hitting it and swelling and all that. I'm not convinced that osb is as good cdx and I did have some swelling problems with it when using it and I've never had a problem in over 20 years of framing with cdx.I'll stick with it when I have a choice. Like I said before, if a builder wants to use it I'll use it. When I have a choice like on my brother-in-laws house, I'm using cdx.
99% othe plans I get are cdx and the plans that I get that say osb, the builders still tell me to order cdx.Joe Carola
As far as your almost exclusinve use of CDX rather than OSB, for new home construction applications, I think your geography is by far in the minority of the country. I'm not pushing OSB, just saying you better get ready for it.
As far as your almost exclusinve use of CDX rather than OSB, for new home construction applications,
Matt,
I do mostly additions now. Even the last few houses I framed a used cdx. Never use osb on additions. If I get a builder who wants it, he will get it, no problem.
I think your geography is by far in the minority of the country. I'm not pushing OSB, just saying you better get ready for it.
It's not at all. There are many builders using osb all over in NJ, just not the ones that I work for.I'm ready for anything that's on a set of plans. If I start getting plans that call for osb and the builder wants to use it I will use it. I doubt that will will stop using cdx any time soon.Joe Carola
Joe, Just curious if you use 4 ply or 5 ply cdx. If all the yards here have when I am in need of sheathing is 4 ply then osb starts looking pretty good to me.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I love OSB. Every sheet is consistent and flat.
I don't use it for subfloor, but I understand the Advantech is pretty good stuff. But for wall sheathing and roof decking I wouldn't want to fight warped up cdx ever again. And pay 50% more for the trouble.
I do agree about the swelling and hate seeing a roof deck that was saturated during construction and you can see every sheet edge when the sun hits it right. We try to get felt down asap after a roof is decked. Deckarmor makes that a lot easier these days.
One warning I can give you about Advantech. Take some anabolic steriods if you are going to handle much of it :-) It his heavy stuff. Beat the #### out of me the first time we used it. Often I do most of the packing when we lay subfloor, and that killed me, so we have to split the jobs up a little better with that stuff.
But here in the rainy NW, it holds up great. I was talking to a guy at the lumberyard a couple of weeks ago and a builder north of us on the high end homes will only use it and the hardwood guys prefer it because it doesn't move so much.
In MI, the hardwood guys were driving the Advantech market by not wanting to warrant their installations over OSB sturdi floor. They claimed that they didn't get good enough holding power over the standard OSB subfloor. Perhaps if they used something more significant than a brad to nail their products with, it would hold up....but hey, why blame your own techniques when there's another scapegoat around eh? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
why blame your own techniques when there's another scapegoat around eh?
Been around for awhile eh? :-)
I'm curious about that too. I haven't seen any good cdx in more than ten years. The osb products are far superior to the 4 ply cdx stuff that we see. There was a Canadien company that supplied an excellent spruce/fir 5 ply called Potlatch but they stopped producing many moons ago and we haven't seen anything close to their quality. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
4 ply is junk IMO. It isn't difficult for me to get 5 ply most of the time. Yards here have ready access to it, all it takes is a little planning. The times I was faced with the OSB/ 4 ply decision were when I was caught off guard by a hurry up project that had no planning involved. Storm repairs etc. I just don't know about other regions of the country and their supply situation. That was the reason for the question.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I haven't seen any good 5 ply. I agree 4 ply is useless. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Joe, In laymans terms since I am not a BI or engineer. First off I have been taught that for shear strength it doesn't matter which way the face grain of ply , or the orientation of the Osb is. What matters is as Tim said the perimeter is nailed off to a solid surface. You aren't looking for span strength across wall members when sheathing walls , you are looking to keep a wall from racking in a quake or high wind. A wall (or roof structure) that is designed/engineered to stay square while resisting the lateral loads imposed on it including those attributed to other parts of the structure is a shear wall. Think keeping a rectangle as a rectangle and not a rhomboid when loaded from one end. I live in a siesmic zone 3 (rated moderate to severe), and wind speed can and has reached near 100mph on rare occasion. Home design is based on those criteria.
The shear walls sheathing must start at the sill plate. Frequency of bolts, lengths, diameters are determined by the loads the wall has to resist. Often some type of "hold down" (Simpson PHD's for example) must also be installed. The wall sheathing must run "continuously " to the roof sheathing, that means that no matter which way you run it, any panel edges must be blocked with solid blocking, including the area between rafters/trusses. Depending on how and what the home is built out of you can do a variety of things to accomplish this aim. For example in a Platform frame:
Sawn joists (Say 2x10)on a sill (pt 2x) bolted to a foundation
7/8 ply sub floor
97" wall hgt. (92 5/8" stud, 3-2x plates)
9" HAP to underside of roof sheathing. 117 7/8 " total required. Buy 10' sheets of sheathing, or block , it doesn't matter which you do for code.
One thing that does matter is size and spacing of fasteners, quite often it also means that framing members either get doubled or are of 3x or 4x stock so as to resist splitting from all the fasteners (I have seen and done as close as 2" o.c. The comment about the corners and every 25' apply only to those designs that fall under what is called "The Prescriptive Path". That is a plan or design that would in this discussion best be labeled a tract house. Do anything "out of the ordinary " that has an engineers stamp , or archies stamp and you really get into some crazy things to meet the engineering. Simpson Strongtie cataloges are a part of every custom buildiers kit here. Just found this link , it explains things better than I can. Hope you aren't on dial up.http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch3/sld001.htm
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I appreciate what you and Tim are saying, but we just don't have to deal with what you are dealing with here yet. Until then, shear walls, shear nailing, tie, downs, hold downs and anything you guys have to do, we don't.If/when this happens to us, we will do whatever is on the plans and no deviations. As of now, no block and sheathing is run horizontal and the only thing you see here is foundation bolts and nothing else. We do have to put hurricane ties now when using ceiling beams along side rafters down the shore area we're I'm working right now.Joe Carola
Joe, Enjoy it while you can. I sure would think twice about doing it if it wasn't code. It is all part of the IRC and if I understand correctly that has been adopted by all but 2 states in the country. If you want to learn for the sake of learning you might look at the links I posted above to Jim.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Back in 2004 or 2003, we built a couple of houses and used that 1/2" green foam board and OSB panels at the corners and every 25' for prescriptive. Here is a pictures of it <IMG http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405201.jpg It was worth trying, but a hassle because the sheets were just a hair over 48" and it added up. Plus we learned the hard way, not to put it around windows unless we provided solid backing.
That was back when OSB prices doubled and then tripled so we were looking for ways to save some $
Good explanation by the way.
still don't even know what a shear wall is. We never use that word around here. We sheath horizontal with cdx and no blocking and anything special. We start at the sill and go up from there.
Joe, if you are serious you may want to check this out.
We have to add sheer walls to everything around here,every code book I'v seen require some sort of sheer walls
http://www.abag.ca.gov/bayarea/eqmaps/fixit/ch3/sld002.htm
I see this link was posted as i typed. (but good enough to post twice!)
NAIL IT !!!
Edited 11/30/2007 10:18 pm ET by steven4077
It's code to block when sheathing horizontal where you're from?
We're running on IRC codes and that's what it says. It's funny to me since Boise is not in a high wind area, nore is it earthquake prone. Go figure.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Some of the IRC requirements might be overkill for your area. In MI we often could get things approved with an okay from an Architect or Engineer.It sounds like they are treating every wall as a shear wall when that most likely is overkill squared for your area. But, maybe it's not. It might be extremely important. In any event, I'd probably have already contacted an engineer and gotten a letter stating where the blocking is really needed and I'd post this document with every set of plans if it helped me to avoid putting in the dreaded blocks. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Jim,
It doesn't take long on walls to block panel edges. We just grab scrap and cut in place on the studs without marking. It adds maybe 5-10 minutes total on most walls and then we use up a lot of scrap :-)
But it is intersting along with what you were saying, that one company makes sheathing longer than 9' and 10' by just an inch or so and their marketing talks about how that will eliminate the need for blocks and some metal connectors tieing the studs to top and/or bottom plates. I'll see if I can find the link
Here it is http://www.windstormosb.com/home-build.html
Jim, Good thing you moved to Tx. and not the west coast. Go to an engineer and you will be probably spending way more time and money to build the building. The most cost effective method is what is known as the "Prescriptive Path". Essentially a pre engineered system that has basic requirements that all BI's know (it's part of the code) and virtually all of the tract builders use. Custom builders and designers use it as well, but it is tougher depending on the design. It was really a methodology developed to prevent EVERY house from having to be individually engineered. Posting your custom engineering will work for 1 project, next project if not the exact same design, get new engineering. Once the Eng. puts his stamp on the plans you have no recourse, you cannot back up and do the "Prescriptive Path". Doesn't matter if it a simple house with 8' walls and a 4/12 pitch truss roof. Eng. stamp= no "Prescriptive Path". This is nothing new out here really , been around for years. The requirements have gotten more stringent as the building scientists learn more about how structures react to quakes and high winds. Say what you will about what you would or wouldn't do , but this whole thing is about keeping people safe during earth quakes and high wind events (That includes tornadoes which I know are not uncommon in Mi..) and building to meet the code requirements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_wall http://www.mcvicker.com/vwall/page000.htm Here is a detailed PDF on shear wall design. http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/DesignGuides/ShearWallDesignGuide.pdf Might try this forum for more detailed answers.
http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=726
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I already knew about west coast regulations and therefore I would never entertain the idea of moving there, especially if I intended to build something. I prefer to work in localities where there is some respect for the guys in the field's knowledge and less on the white shirts who are raping the common folk by helping to create useless rules and regulation such as you have described (the part about a simple building not allowed to be preferred pathed). Common sense should always prevail and quite frankly, it doesn't make a lot of sense to build on cliffs in seismic areas and then talk about safety. I think it's pretty well established that this is dangerous no matter how many engineers stamps you have. Don't even get me started about MI and their recent requirements regarding hurricane tiedowns. I've never seen such idiocy in more than three decades but it makes the township building departments important, doesn't it? I wonder what they should do about the five million residences that dont have anchor bolts, hurricane ties or joist hangers. There are literally millions of them standing up quite well despite the occasional tornado that touches down in some cornfield. Statistically, the only things in danger are mobile home parks yet they allow them to be built over and over and over and....It shouldn't surprise you that Libertarians probably wouldn't be telling folks that they need to pad Simpson's coffers would it? FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Jim,
I understand what you are saying, but you know its with everything else, try to find the reasonable guys.
The engineer we work with is really a great guy (takes awhile to get the work done sometimes), but he is very reasonable, takes the time to explain to us WHY certain things are necessary.
I would work with him on every project if it was required, but a lot of what we do still meets prescrptive requirements.
Typically what is added for us, is tighter nailing patterns on shearwalls. The rest is usually what any good engineer or designer or framer should do anyway, double check that all the loads are traced down.
Holddowns aren't that tough to install. Good communication between the framer/builder and the concrete sub is necessary.
How is it in TX? I didn't know you moved. Are you framing? Or building?
I escaped MI and landed in TX. We are both framing, building, and flipping at the present and looking for a development deal. Austin is one of the best markets to be in according to the national newscast last week. While the national housing market is dropping, Austin is holding steady. We also have to rely on engineers here for every type of project and we've found a good old guy that has common sense and is reasonable. He's got a good program going. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
With liability premiums being what they are, we'd have a hard time convincing an engineer to allow us to build lower than code as a minimum. Usually we avoid an engineer if possible since it often means more work. As long as we have to block we'll just run verticle, especially with the 9' walls that we try to build with.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
There is no greater waste of time than blocking anything. I have never lived in an area that required blocking. If I did, I'd be special ordering osb for every size wall. On a standard 8' wall, I'd have 10' sheets sent out and I'd run it from the sill plate up onto the second story rim joist. I'd run another 9' sheet from there...all vertical.Or, I'd research ways of adding shear strength without doing all the blocking. Blocking seems so anal to me but I'm not an engineer and I've never had to build in seismic conditions. I wouldn't be opposed to retiring if I ever had to build in areas like that. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Remember - H4H = free labor, but they pay for materials.
Jim,
What does H4H mean?
A 10'-1-1/2" sheet will span 8 studs with a 9-1/2" drop
Using a 8' sheet will have no cuts and no wasted 9-1/2" drop off. That doesn't make sense to me to cut every sheet and have 9-1/2" waste when you can have no cuts and no waste.
Joe Carola
Edited 11/27/2007 4:36 pm ET by Framer
H4H is an abbreviation for "Habitat for Humanity"
When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break.
H4H is shorthand for Habitat for Humanity.
>>Using a 8' sheet will have no cuts and no wasted 9-1/2" drop off. That doesn't make sense to me to cut every sheet and have 9-1/2" waste when you can have no cuts and no waste.<<
Agreed - provided the building plan was well thought out and the plates were laid out by myself.
Now take the following dimensions - 24'2" and 17'8" - they are the length of the exterior walls on the second floor of this house - don't blame me - I didn't design it - just had to build it.
Add to that a shaky stud layout done by others (H4H supervision) - little things wrong like starting the stud layout 16" from the end of the plate, regardless of whether the wall included a corner post or was an abutting wall.
Other rules: You must sheath horizontally; sheathing must span at least 2 stud bays and be nailed to at least 3 studs, sheathing seams must be offset by 2 bays minimum - 3 preferred.
The 8' no cut / no waste rule flies out of the window - we were sweating the waste factor until we found out about the longer sheathing.
Example: Assume you need to sheath a 23'5" wall, abuts 1 2x6 wall and 1 2x4 wall at it's two ends - 24'2" total sheathing run. Start with a full 8' sheet - need 5-1/2" sheathing overhang to overlap the corner post on the adjoining 2x6 wall - but the "sheet ending stud" is 96" from the plate end, instead of 90-1/2" where it should be. Only solution is to drop the sheet back to the 80" stud - 10-1/2" drop which is useless. You have now covered 7'-1-1/2" (85-1/2").
Assume stud layout is good at 16" o.c.(which it is not). Next sheet covers 8' - no cut / no waste - 15'-1-1/2" of wall covered.
Next sheet covers 8' - no waste -- oops -- the sheet ends at 23'-1-1/2" where there is a stud but the resulting piece needed to end the run is only 12-1/2" long - violates the two stud bay / 3 stud nailed rule. Drop back to next stud - cut - 16" drop. You have now used 3 sheets, covered 21'-9-1/2" of wall and produced 26-1/2" of useless drops.
Next cut will be a 2'-4-1/2" to finish the wall run - leaves a piece 5'-7-1/2" - part of which will be usable somewhere in the next run - which gets worse due to seam staggering requirements.
I think you get the idea.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
You can get any size you want if your willing to pay for it.
We ordered 9' sheets for one project where it was speced to run from top -bot plate.
You probly got the tail end of a special order that they donated to HFH.
NAIL IT !!!
You brought back some memories ...
I was overseas a lot in the '80's, and I also found the plywood dimensions to be, well, interesting. It seems that the machinery for making plywood is all sized at 48" wide, so that's what you get. The length, however, is adjustable. I suspect that your pieces would have had an "even" measure, had they been measured with a Metric scale.
Metric........great theory but 3.086 m = about 3-3/8" long for 3 meters.
Best explanation we could come up with was that, installed vertically, the sheets would fully cover a 9' stud wall (104-5/8" precut + 3 plates) + mudsill + a 2x10 floor joist system. Would do this all in one sheet - no blocking even with the picky codes mentioned by some here. Small trim at top or a double mudsill.
Of course this assumes you are building a ranch house.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Here is a Q at least somewhat related to the thread title.
Here the 3/4" sheet MDF we get comes something like 49"x97". Why is that?
Allowance for several saw kerfs in both directions and still yield 48x96?
That has always been my guess.
Kind of the same situation on sawn lumber over 12' - always seem to run long.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.