My Drywallers seem to be skimping on the # of coats they put on my walls, lately. Shouldn’t three coats go on before they’re done. I seem to get two coats, then sand, then they touch up imperfections, and are gone. I can see quite a few seams, and a lot of flaws. It’s a real pain.
Thought I’d get some feedback from you guys before I call my drywaller with my beef.
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Replies
Pip,
I'm not sure it matters what the standard is. If you don't like the job, either get a new finisher or tell him you want it to be better. If you can see imperfections, and your willing to pay for a better job, then how could your guy have a problem with this?
Jon Blakemore
Hold your payment on ONE job and tell him he doesn't get paid until you are satisfied that the job is done , It worked with our drywallers.
3 coats and satisfaction to get paid.
Im not sure if you are giving enough information. If the drywall is to be finished slick with no texture , then at least 3 coats on top of the tape is necesary. If you are getting a spanish texture then 2 coats on top of tape is common. If durabond mud has been used as a float coat then 1 coat on top of the float is pretty common because shrinkage would be minimal. Thus making it 2 coat on top of tape finish. Sometimes drywallers like to count the tape coat , so it can get confusing.
At any rate the taper needs to satisfy you with in reason. If you can see imperfections on raw rock with normal light then I would say he needs to please you. If you are looking at his job with a spot light or a 300 watt bulb in your hand , then that is not reasonable because its not normal light conditions. He may use a bright light to finish by , but not for you to inspect. Im wondering if you are using his flood lights on the job to inspect. I mention light because its a picky deal. Normally lights are hung in the center of the room and there are diffusser globes over the bulbs to cut down on glare. At any rate he isnt supposed to give you an "auto finish". Roll painting also covers some , but normally a light texture is needed even under slick conditions. USG has a coating that is called Super Hide, and there are many types of smooth textures that will cover a semi slick wall. Its hard to call when Im not looking at it, but I belive you should be satisfied with the end result in normal lighting conditions. Maybe hes not done. Maybe he thinks hes done. At any rate you will have to have some conversation with him and ask him your questions.
Tim Mooney
USG has a coating that is called Super Hide
Tim, it's called "Tuff-Hide" - the best primer! makes even a 2 coater look great. Can be used on the ceiling as the paint too. Never ever any photographing.
How does it do over plaster? A current renovation requires blending drywall with existing plaster, so I need something to bridge the two. Normally I thin down the premade mud and skim coat. Does this do any better?
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Theres a tuff hide and a super hide . I got the manufactor mixed up. Its much like drywall mud that is thinned and rolled . It covers more than mud as far as telegraphing , much like vinyl primer and drywall mud rolled or troweled. The thick mixtures will cover no sanding , but I disagree with less coats . I guess we can agree to disagree on that point as its really preference how far the job is taken in the way of quality. I dont get to use a lot of quality on trac houses or apartments , so it depends what the nature of quality the work needs to be.
Tim Mooney
It has to be sprayed, but I'm sure it can be rolled. Check it out on http://www.usg.com under Primer-Surfacer "Tuff-Hide". If no answer there, you can call USG direct. I don't have any experience with it on plaster. Also if you didn't want to try that one, USG also has "Sheetrock First Coat" - that can be rolled over plaster as I have done it a few times.
I'd like to see someone do only 2 coats for a slick finish. I'm sure it can be done but ya gotta use a setting compound for the 2nd coat. But then using a setting compound for the 2nd (finish coat), it will not be that smooth, too may pin holes.
1st coat - tape
2nd coat - use an 8 or 10 inch knife and do not thin the mud.
Is that what you mean by two coats? If it is - noone can do a good job! I'd pay to see this!
Normally, after the 2nd coat, you need a third (final coat). If are you saying two coats after the tape is applied - then all is well.
Ahh seems we have a differing definition of terms here.
If two coats is tape and one top coat? Then I agree that is unacceptable.
What does two coats mean to everybody else?
Scott R.
Edited 4/8/2003 5:37:15 PM ET by Scott R.
Two coats is taping, that's one coat, and the 2nd coat with an 8" knife, and then the 3rd or final coat. Two coats to me is impossible for a good slick drywall finish!
I agree.
Tim Mooney
Thanks for the feedback guys. As far as doing a better job than me, that's for sure. I'm a carpenter, not a drywaller. That's why I hire them.
Tim, as far as lighting, I never inspect by shining a bright light at different angles on a wall. I agree that would be unreasonable. This is after light fixtures have been set in the house, so normal evening light, usually harder to see the seams during the day. Quite a few of the seams are obvious to me, on at least every other house. As far as finish, here in the northern Illinois textured finishes are the exception, sanded smooth is the rule.
He does do the spray out to, so maybe we'll discuss trying the USG Tuff hide. We currently use a Glidden High Hide- One Coat.
Price point is a big issue on the houses I do, and his price is very good, so I don't want to break his noots. Just want a nice finish for my customers.
To add to what you were saying about using natural light to inspect finishes. When looking at a wall you should not be looking at sharper than a 30 degree angle.
Im guesing you are talking about the maximun light angle of a window or glass door on a wall or ceiling in reference of 30 degrees? I guess that would stand for light shades on lamps ?
Tim Mooney
Sorry if my description was a bit vauge. The 30 degree angle I mentioned referenced the sight angle you have in reference to the wall. If you are looking straight at a wall you will not see much in the way of inperfections in finished drywall unless they are bad. The sharper the angle of your perception the more imperfections you will notice. If you look at a wall parallel to the finish you will notice a large number of imperfections even in a high quality job. It is recommended that your angle of sight on the wall not be greater than 30 degrees because beyond that you are going to be able to see imperfections that are not significant, and a line of sight beyond a 30 degree to the wall far exceeds the industry standard for inspections.
Did that muddy the water enough?
I agree
Tim Mooney
I don't EXACTLY agree with you. You can look straight on at a wall, and if the light is hitting the wall at an angle, then you will definitely begin to see the imperfections- the lower the incident angle of the light hitting the wall, the more shadows you will see. But you ARE correct about viewing angle. Drywall surfaces that are notorious for showing imperfections- long hallways and low flat ceilings. Therefore, BOTH viewing angle and incident light angle have a bearing on this.
One of the guys I work with was using a hand held light to check his work, and the homeowner happened to see him doing so. Well, that drywall job was, from that point on, doomed to failure with the homeowner frequently checking with a light. The HO was never completely satisfied and the finishing time almost tripled.
Ken Hill
Sometimes they are a lot better than you or I. It isn't the # it is the quality. My drywallers did my house (upstairs) in 3 days. Studs to go and paint it. Yes there are a few spots but far better than I could do.
If it bugs you be nice and suggest they missed a spot or two. You get more bees with honey than vinegar.
Standard practice has always been three coats. My brother who is a taper/painter swears he can get away with two, although it depends on the job.
As someone else pointed out though, the number of coats is irrelavent. If you`re not satisfied after five coats, the taper aint doing the job.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I can get good results with two coats, however I do all my sanding up close with a sander in one hand and a light held parallel to the surface in the other.
Have to agree with the previous responses, regardless of the number of coats your drywaller thinks he can get away with if your not happy with the results it needs to be fixed.
Everyone brings up good points about finish quality. The most important point being that no matter the number of coats, it is your satisfaction that is most important.
Regional standards will usually dictate what the standard finish will be, however according to an industry standard publication released by the Association of the Wall and Ceiling Industries International, Ceilings & Interior Systems Construction Association, Gypsum Association, and Painting and Decorating Contractors of America there are six distinctive levels of drywall finish ranging from nothing to a full skim coat. The descriptions are generic in nature but specify the who, what , when, and where of drywall finishing.
Go to the link provided to read up on what I am talking about.
http://harddrywall.com/PAGES/layers.html
Thats a good link. That separates what the customer is paying for and I will add level 6 which will be 3 coats over running joints and 3 or more over butts to level wall. What separates that finish mostly is that it provides no butt building . Now every one knows the higher the level the higher the cost .
"Everyone brings up good points about finish quality. The most important point being that no matter the number of coats, it is your satisfaction that is most important."
As long as hes paying for the level he is getting. The link should be used in every job and I for one have failed to make issue of the point. I will use levels from now on in my work because as the original poster said the price was "good". I dont think he wants to run the taper off because of price. He just wants satifaction probably at the same price. That is the main reason I posted anything in this post as it comes up time after time in the trade. In an agreement of the level chosen , it would be a mute subject in this case. I brought up price difference between what a devloper would pay for apartments and what a custom home owner would pay because they would certainly choose a different level. If this poster wanted more and wasnt satisfied with the number of coatings then he could up grade at a set cost . That would make every one happy . [I dont rule out that its unsufficient finishing ]If a fire man only went to the good fires and didnt do the bad ones he wouldnt be very busy. There is a need to do all kinds of finishes if you are a taper or a painter . I spray barns for people if thats all they want done , but I wont sell the same job on their house as there are minimum requirements for a tradesman. I like selling the different levels, because taping is really competitive.
Tim Mooney
Bed tape, squeeze out put back on over tape 1 coat
10" humpback trowel 2nd coat
feather & fill pits witk 6" taping knife 3rd coat
sand,prime & touchup if needed
That's what I've done for years, flat wall paint hides more than eggshell, eggshell hides more than satin, etc. But client determines level of quality by depth of pocketbook.Had a commercial job owner said 2 coats was fine told him he paid for 3 he said "Sand it, my painters use 3/4" rollers it will look fine"I said "pay me I'm gone" saw the job later he was right it didn't look bad. Tricks of the trade! but I couldn't do that on residential work I like to sleep at night.
I just had a couple guys do the mud and tape work on my basement project. I'm actually doing the sanding, but they put 3 three very smooth coats on all of the seems and at least two on the inside corners - 3 where necessary. Three days several hours each. Corners nice, almost no flaws.
Thanks for the feedback guys!