Replies

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Feb 06, 2004 06:36pm | #1

    ...it fires up and seems to cycle on and off all day...

   is this not what you would expect? - any chance of being out of oil? - - what about the filter? - - is the tank outside such that moisture could freeze and block the fuel? is there a trap in the fuel line you can clean out?- - how about your thermostat?  is it calling for heat? - -  there is an electric eye that shuts things down if it doesn't see the flame,  they go bad,  they get dirty,  hell the contact on the reset may be corroded - check the pump pressure - nozzles are cheap and easy to replace,  sometimes their bronze filters get filled up till they won't spray - transformer may be bad,  points may be mis-adjusted - - your burner guy should be able to diagnose this one, if he's a pro...

2. 
   goldhiller | Feb 06, 2004 06:51pm | #2

   A few questions for us to start on…….

   When you say it cycles on and off all day…do you mean it cycles as it should or is it cycling in an abnormal manner?

   Is the fuel tank outside? Any chance the fuel is gelling during the night from extreme outdoor temps and that temps have risen a bit by morning when you hit the reset?

   Does it only refuse to fire sometime during the night or does it sometimes do this also during the day?

   Is the burner in a heated space in the house or in an unheated area?

   Was the nozzle and/or electrodes changed?

   If the electrodes were changed were the specific electrodes for your burner used or was a pair installed that are "generic"?

   If nozzle was changed...... was the same gph, degree and pattern(lettter) of nozzle installed?

   Were you having any problems with it before the recent work?

   Age and make of burner?

   One more question....what are your current daily highs and nightly lows and does there seem to be any relationship between the low fo the night and the tendency for the burner to be locked out in the morning? You say it been getting worse. Have the temps been getting progressively colder?

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/6/2004 10:57:56 AM ET by GOLDHILLER

1. 
   steveodiy | Feb 06, 2004 07:11pm | #3

   It cycles correctly to maintain 130 max off at 180

   Fuel tanks inside in basement next to burner, not heated area but stays at least 60

   It cycles during the day fine it's just sometime during the night it stops cycling on.

   Everything was replaced about 3 months ago.  Fuel lines change to1/2 inch, new filters, boiler totally cleaned out.  The burner tips?? were changed and adjusted.  Don't know the quality of parts but my cousin doesn't like to skimp and I told him to do all the work as though it was his house, money no object. 

   I believe it's a Bekkett or Carlon about 5 years old.

   He came by yesterday and cleaned all the contacts etc.  He said he could swap out parts to try and find the problem but the fact that it happens sometime overnight has him bugged and he doesn't want to change parts yet.

   Additional info:

   I have another burner/boiler and a hot water heater next to this one.  They aren't having this problem.

1. 
   goldhiller | Feb 06, 2004 07:36pm | #4

   Does the burner ever "boom" when it starts?

   Perplexing that it only does this at night and so things that come to mind other than fuel supply problems would be............

   Unit probably fires more frequently and for longer periods of time during the night and so this may effect the likelihood that the problem is more apt to evidence itself at night.

   Has anyone checked the flue temp after the unit was worked on? It may be that the flue temp is running on the cusp of kicking the high limit/stack switch during the day but doesn't because the firing times and length are short enough and just infrequent enough to avoid this but during the night when firings may be more frequent or of greter duration, enough heat builds to trip it.

   I think I'd first check the flue temp and adjust the overfire draft and/or combustion air if necessary to lower it. Make sure you don't lower the combustion air so as to create a dirty fire.

   Closely related issue to that would be a stack switch that may not be performing as it should.......tripping too easily during those extended night-time firings.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   Edited 2/6/2004 11:44:07 AM ET by GOLDHILLER

1. 
   steveodiy | Feb 06, 2004 07:51pm | #5

   I don't get a boom as in noise but sometimes a puff of smoke comes out of the shell around the boiler.

   I know originally the combustion air was set to open by the installer and my cousin said it was burning dirty and he adjusted that down. 

   When you say flue temp do you mean the actual pipe going out of the boiler to the chimney? Could the other 2 burners be heating it up?

1. 
   goldhiller | Feb 07, 2004 05:43am | #6

   Reread your first post and I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "wake up in the morning and there's no heat." On the surface it would seem you mean it's cold in the area, but you may mean there's no fire in that particular boiler. The reason for my questioning this is that if the theory of mine concerning the longer burn times causing the stack switch to kick because it's living on the cusp during the day would be moot if indeed the living area is cold in the morning. The reason it would be moot is because if it's actually cold in there when you reset the boiler in the morning, a longer cycle would ensue which should again trip the stack switch. I originally thought that the other boiler might be making up for the failed unit during the night and that an extended fire time wasn't occurring.

   And so, we likely have to look elsewhere for the culprit. I see a contradiction in your one statement….." I know originally the combustion air was set too open by the installer and my cousin said it was burning dirty and he adjusted that down". It's the lack of enough combustion air that causes a "dirty burn", not too much air. Too much air will cause a "white roaring fire". If your cousin turned the combustion air down in an attempt to get a cleaner fire, he quite likely has caused either or both, ignition problems and the puff of smoke you see emitted from the firepot. Something is definitely wrong here. There should be no smoke emitted from the cabinet.

   You also say that there's another boiler and a gas-fired WH in the same room. Are they tied into the same flue in the same chimney? A shared flue has to be large enough to handle the combined BTUs from all of the appliances when they are firing or lack of adequate draft can occur causing ignition or burn problems with any or all of the appliances when they are running simultaneously. Again on the surface it might seem like this isn't the culprit because they all ran fine on the available flue(s) prior to the "tune-up" on this boiler, but………………….things have changed now since your cousin adjusted the air, nozzle and maybe the barometric draft on this "problem" boiler. More BTUs or altered states of draft may now exist that didn't prior to this. If these appliances share the same flue, does this boiler happen to have the lowest physical entry point?

   I gather that your cousin cleaned out the heat exchanger of this unit, but……………..did he check the condition of the flue from the boiler to the chimney for obstruction or did he check the chimney for obstruction? If that boiler was running dirty it's quite possible that either of these areas have an obstruction to draft. Was the flue draft checked with a draft gauge? In order to this properly the appliance must be burning for 20 minutes for the temperatures to stabilize and then the check is made. If this boiler shares a flue, those other appliances must also be running for twenty minutes simultaneously for the draft check to be valid.

   Same 20 minutes applies when checking the flue temp and don't' forget to subtract the ambient temperature of the boiler room from the result.

   There are a limited number of things that can cause a smoky start to a fire and/or a smoky fire in general, but there's quite a few. A nozzle that isn't throwing a good pattern, obstructed fuel delivery, improper over-fire draft, improper setting or positioning of the ignition electrodes, failing transformer, improper combustion air setting, obstructed flue (which would then be directly related over-fire draft and to input of combustion air) a failing fuel pump, contaminated fuel, a firepot liner which is deteriorating and a piece has fallen in front of the nozzle spray or a combination of any of the above. (I've probably forgotten something here)

   I'm guessing from what you've said that your problems are draft, combustion air and maybe electrode setting related. I still think you're living on the cusp of something during the day that crosses over the threshold at night in these areas. The air is generally heavier and colder at night inside the chimney. I'm pretty sure that this is playing a role here. I'd start by checking out the flues and chimney for obstructions and then set about retuning that boiler for draft and combustion air with the proper gauges and sensors. Under no circumstances should a properly operating oil-fired burner and exhaust system toss puffs of smoke at you on the outside of the cabinet or boom when it starts.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

   Edited 2/6/2004 10:09:31 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

2. 
   IMERC | Feb 07, 2004 06:03am | #7

   Excellent and well thought out Mr G... 

   Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....

3. 
   goldhiller | Feb 07, 2004 06:20am | #8

   Well, thank you.

   Chewed on it off and on today while retrofitting doors to existing jambs.

   Is der a prize? Huh. Huh. Is there?

   Oh yeah, I already got it.

   I shall celebrate then with another brew.

   Did ya get dug out of the winter wonderland?

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

4. 
   IMERC | Feb 07, 2004 06:27am | #9

   Little more coverd up.... 

   Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....

5. 
   goldhiller | Feb 07, 2004 05:59pm | #11

   I'll bring a shovel then and a little Goldschlager.

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

6. 
   IMERC | Feb 07, 2004 09:53pm | #15

   Bring a lot. That much shoveling is thirsty work... Be nice if some of it actually makes it to the house in time to be buried in again... 

   Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....

7. 
   steveodiy | Feb 13, 2004 08:01pm | #16

   OK you win the door prize.

   Just about everything you mentioned my cousin had checked including the electric eye with a meter.  So to start off he replaced the electric eye . Problem solved.

   Thanks again for your help.  I printed out this thread and showed him.  He was surprised there were people that knowledgable out on the web giving advise.

8. 
   goldhiller | Feb 13, 2004 08:22pm | #17

   Now that's weird. Cad cell failed only during the night. Huh. I shall file away the result in the knowledge bin.

   Can't help but wonder why that cad would fail only during the night and then operate successfully in the morning. That's weird or at least is to my brain. There's an explanation no doubt, but don't know if my head will stumble across it or not.

   Thanks for the update.

   Your cousin didn't happen to have a theory or explanation for that behavior, did he?

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

9. 
   steveodiy | Feb 13, 2004 08:35pm | #18

   Sorry, left out what I now realize is helpfull.  It was starting to have cycle problems during the day AND in the last 2 weeks of the problem my stepfather who is home during the day was hitting the reset for me during the day.  He said this after my cousin said "Gee why does the sensor work during the day and not at night.

10. 
    goldhiller | Feb 13, 2004 08:44pm | #19

    Ah ha! That unknown bit if info explains much. <G>

    Thanks again.

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

11. 
    OneofmanyBobs | Feb 13, 2004 10:41pm | #20

    Is there light down there during the day?  You do get a small amount of light reflected off the lining through the observation port and onto the cad cell.  Not much, but if the cell was flakey that might have been just enough to make it work better during the day but not at night.

12. 
    DanH | Feb 07, 2004 06:37am | #10

    I kind of wonder if the problem has to do with turning down the thermostat overnight, such that the burner doesn't run for a long time. We had a gas furnace that was like this -- a downdraft would get started in the flu and when the furnace started it would actually blow out the pilot light.

    I suspect as Goldy suggests that it has something to do with the combo of devices in one area on one flu -- either fighting over combustion air or fighting over the flu. And there's something about the pattern of operation at night that's different from during the day.

    (One vague possibility is that the oil line is draining down when the unit doesn't run for a long time, and it takes two tries to fill it up again.)

13. 
    goldhiller | Feb 07, 2004 06:03pm | #12

    Remembered one more thing that can cause funky starts and burns resulting in smoky fires.............a fire retention ring that come out of place. Not unheard of on some Beckett burners.

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

14. 
    goldhiller | Feb 07, 2004 09:38pm | #13

    Ya know..............sometimes a guy gets his best revelations while standing under the showerhead.

    I've possibly overlooked the most obvious reason for this "new problem" you're having. Let's presume for a moment that your cousin did clean out the boiler itself and checked the flue and chimney for obstructions or choking due to soot build-up. Now (if what you said is correct), he turned down the air to the burner. Did he turn down the air with the bulk air band or just the air shutter or both perhaps? If he turned down or closed off the bulk air band, that alone could result in and explain some or even all of your current problems. This would effect both the overfire draft and the cleanliness of combustion.

    To make matters worse, if there's a dirty fire in the pot as a result, sooting will ensue choking down the diameter of the exhaust passages (and therefore the draft) a little more with each passing day. That would explain why the problem is growing in frequency. The passages may have been clean 3 months ago, but not necessarily any more today. Couple that with the colder night-time temps of the chimney and the resulting difficulty in establishing adequate draft and you may have the explanation as to why the stack switch trips and you have to reset the unit in the morning. Couple that with the times when two or more units vented into the same flue are running concurrently and the odds increase that adequate draft becomes a problem and the stack switch trips.

    If the bulk air band setting was reduced or totally closed, let's hope he remembers where it was set. If not, the manufacturer of your unit should be able to tell you an average setting and you can start from there. Then you have to ascertain the condition of the exhaust path and make sure it's wide open as it should be. Then return to the boiler burner and take whatever steps are necessary to get it burning clean, the flue temps in line and simultaneous adequate/correct overfire draft. To do this properly, you need test equipment made for this purpose and the knowledge of how to use it correctly.

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

    Edited 2/7/2004 1:40:16 PM ET by GOLDHILLER

15. 
    IMERC | Feb 07, 2004 09:51pm | #14

    Any O-2, CO or other sensors being sooted up?

    Heavy build up of oily carbon Burning and developing hot spots amd faking out the limit switches?

    Defective reset button?  

    Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....