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What are the pros and cons of oil versus gas for heating a water boiler? I am installing a WIRSBO radiant floor heating system and I have a choice of heating the boiler with oil or with gas. The WIRSBO reps here are recommending oil, but needless to say I worry about the volatile prices of oil.
All views and advice appreciated.
Muniini K. Mulera
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Replies
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My
i impressions
are that (i) oil boilers need more maintenance and (ii) oil stinks.
*Also, oil tanks take up some real estate and don't last forever. In some states, fuel oil tanks are exempted from underground tank regulations. If not, a leaking oil tank can costing thousands to tens of thousands of dollars. It therefore can be a concern to potential buyers. Persumably you already have gas to the house. Why add oil? If you don't already have gas, adding it allows you to have a more responsive cooktop, much faster clothes drying, and faster recovery on your HWH. Most people get natural gas if they possibly can, with good reason. Most people who have oil didn't have any other choice. -David
*" In some states, fuel oil tanks are exempted from underground tank regulations."Other places have problems.Place I built in the 70's in MA had an underground tank. Saved me $$ each year. When I sold it in '97, the banks there wouldn't lend against a house with an underground tank.Did an inspection last week with a suspected underground tank (NW Ohio). I was told that the Buyer's Ins co won't insure a house with an undergrouind tank. I don't know if that's an anomoly or a trend.
*Muniini,Natural gas, if available is preferred for the reasons well covered in previous posts. Ask the reps recommending oil why? They may know something specific to your situation that makes it a better choice.Bob,Not a trend or an anomaly. Regulations against underground liquid (except lp) storage tanks past in the last decade have made their use more costly (double wall construction, leak detection and monitoring) and owner liability for cleanup and ground water contamination has made insurance very expensive or unobtainable. I've seen many Mom and Pop gas stations go out of business because of the new regulations. Couldn't afford to upgrade, state would allow operation without.
*Tim,Good points. I was thinking of residential underground oil tanks.MA is way "ahead" of many areas in discouraging them. In OH the subject has been a big yawn so far, with this report of an ins. co. getting squirrely about them being the first hint of a change in direction.Kind of like 60 amp services. A few in.s co.s got antsy about them, now FHA and VA won't underwrite mortgages against homes with 60 amp services; 100 is the minimum.For many of the houses I inspect, 60 amps is fine, at least until they redo the kitchen and have to add all of those extra circuits!
*An CA is even further "ahead" of MA in environmental regulations in that they had (for years now) a backlash against the costs of headaches of those regs. They (last I worked there) had exempted residential tanks. Too politically unpopular to go after homeowners in situations with no solution. You gonna demo the neighbor's house to dig up dirty soil?Tim: you're right, except in most states, it was federal UST regs (implemented by the states) that drove the Mom & Pop's under*. The feds kept rolling back the final, drop-dead date because so many stations hadn't complied. But December 23, 1999 was the final deadline. Upgraded tanks or no one will deliver fuel to you.(*) Plus a general trend towards multi-pump, no-service stations with mini-marts. Because cars are so much more reliable now and Slurpies and Cheetios have a much higher margin than gasoline.
*What is the cost per btu for oil vs gas? Oil probably has it beat. I don't have natural gas but could get propane but am leaning toward using oil based on that oil and propane are within .10 cents of each other in my area and oil has about 50 percent more btu/gallon
*Oil often beats propane. Rarely does oil beat natural gas. For me natural gas is $0.38 / 100,000 BTUs. Propane is $1.59 / 100,000. Oil about $.95/100,000. My electricity is $2.40/100,000 BTU. Your mileage may differ. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Check your own prices locally. -David
*David...Lets do my numbers....Oil is $1/g...Propane is $1/g...electric is .14/KW...Wood...takes a hundred pounds to hear a home/day midwinter @ 40,000btu/hour maybe...I just hear about the poundage actually.Give me a hand with this...near the stream,ajI thinks my 2000sqft home needs 40,000btus when real cold and 20,000btus average for 3 months midwinter...just guessing...Uses about $900 of electric to heat per year.
*Jack,Your heat loss numbers (40,000 BTU/hour at 0 or 10F) look right on if the house is typical modern construction (the entire envelope was insulated within the last 20 years but is not super-insulated nor super-tight).Wood has around 8,000 BTU/pound, but that is a function of moisture content. (Pound/cubic foot is a function of species). So 100 pounds is 800,000 BTU/day or 33,000 BTU/hour (gross). If the stove is 70% efficient, then house is requiring 23,000 BTU/hour(net) when you use 100 pound/day.Propane has a heat content of 89,000 BTU/gallon. At 80% efficiency, $1/ gallon propane appliance costs $1.40 / 100,000 BTU's delivered.Oil has a heat content of 136,000 BTU/gallon. At 80% efficiency, $1/ gallon oil appliance costs $0.92 / 100,000 BTU's delivered.Electric has a heat content of 3,415 BTU/kwh. At 100% efficiency, $0.14/kwh electricity costs $4.10 / 100,000 BTU's delivered.So compared to oil usage, that 100 pounds of wood you haul (and drop, buck, split, and stack) saves $5.00 per day. (552,000 BTU/day released inside your house times $0.92 / 100,000 BTU's delivered.)You'll feel better about schelping that wood around if you compare it to electric usage. Then your efforts save you $22.60/day or $700/month. From which I conclude that you don't use your electric heat very much if your yearly bill is only $900. -David
*Dave,14c/kwh is pretty high, as is 1.59/therm of lp. I don't have any experience with heating oil, but if it were available, it wouldn't work in my dryer or my Viking (range). 8c/kwh in N IL was pretty rough on the budget. Used to heat with all electric because that how the house I own was built (in 1971 when nukes were going to make electricity "too cheap to meter") Changed to lp because NG is not available in my rural area yet. I locked in a contract for $0.65/gal in 1999 and $0.85/gal in 2000 and $1.00/gal this year. I guess living in the arctic circle has its costs, eh?Muniini lives in south central Canada, as I recall. Don't know the relative costs there. Based on ignorance and prejudice, I'd have to recommend the gas option.
*I had propane heat in my last house, hated paying for it. I've got oil heat and DHW in this house, like them very much. Fast recovery on the DHW, and I'm paying about half in heat. (Part of that is that this house is better insulated) I also have propane for the stove and dryer, but that costs only about $50/year. Oil tank in the basement, propane tank buried in the yard.Andy
*Super post David...thanks....I believe 20btu/hour to be the number I need to work with. Both my house and my brothers are new in the last twenty years. He just had installed an airtight fireplace to heat his house. Puts out 60,000btu max and will burn through the night hopes. It puts out huge heat compared to my zero clearance fireplace ( I didn't build the house!)So my numbers for dead of winter...3 months=90daysx24hr/dyx20,000btu/hr=43,200,000btus for winter heat./100,000=432wood 43200 pounds...10 plus cords x $85/cord= $850/winteroil 432 units.....= $400/winterLP 432x1.42......= $613/winterLP High efficeincy...92%...432x1.22 ...= $527/winterElectric very expnsive here...432x4.10...= $1771/winterAs you said David...I am using less btus somehow because my total year electric bill for all uses is only $1800. So my average BTU needs are closer to 10,000btu/hour taking the following into consideration...So....I burn wood nightly (50lbs/somenights@2cords/winter)...heat system shuts off for 6 hours...Daytime sun..lots of South glass...shuts off on sunny days...and finally the heat pump works well when above 40 degrees which happens for maybe 15% of the winter.Changes coming....tighten envelope...more insulation...higher efficiency wood unit...mine is probably at 20% max...Lp heated floor loops for kitchen and 2 baths down...LP woodstove type unit hooked up finally for non fire hours and cold weather....LP instead of electric for water heat...LP for stove eventually...LP for dryer already.Results expected...warmer home...warmer floors...warm bathrooms in the AM! Savings...enough to pay for changes...and higher temp. settings.Near the stream,aj
*DHW....Dark Haired Wife...?Dying horses waiting..Dry Hot Water...Help me Andy...near the stream,aj60 degrees again today...Off to pick another 10 gallons of CWF to apply to my freshly powerwashed cedar sided home...which by the way is looking pretty good these days if I do say so myself!
*Tim: Yes, $0.14/kwh is high but that is what AJ says he pays. Some areas of NY are as much as $0.25/kwh. Knew someone outside of Portland, Oregon that had his rate doubled (to $0.02/kwh) a few years ago. New Zealand has the bargain electrons. $0.005NZ/kwh. I pay $0.083/kwh but only $0.38/therm of natural gas (an advantage to living on top of an oil/gas field).DHW = domestic hot waterAJ: You missed a factor in the your wood costs. 43,200,000 BTU / 8,000 BTU/pound of wood = 5,400 pounds of wood. If your stove is 50% efficient, then 10,800 pounds of wood or 2 to 3 cords. $200 bucks. Wood is almost always cheaper. And always more work. I doubt your wood stove is as bad as 20% - that's like a California fireplace. If it's got doors you can closed down and a damper it's got to be 30-40% or better. Any fan? Metal flue or brick chimney? Too bad you can't get my natural gas. Then the total bill would be $205/year w/o any wood usage. -David
*Hello everyone:This is a very helpful discussion. I am leaning heavily towards choosing Natural Gas heating (rather than oil) for the boiler. Seems to me there really is not a major benefit of oil compared to gas. Yet practical issues like the smell of oil, having to remember to refill the tank etc. are as important as the cost. Cost wise here in Toronto, Canada, - not much difference at the moment. Thank you all again.Muniini
*David....Looking at an oil fired water heater...such as... http://www.bockwaterheaters.com/index1024.htmlnear the stream,aj
*Update....Actual electric used in dead of winter....shows need for 5 million BTUs/mth and that is with temp set low in home at night..63Degrees.That works out to 7,000btus/hr for the coldest 5 months.Plan....Lower cost of btu purchase...raise temp inside to 68 degrees and use some radiant floor and radiant LP stove. Oil for DHW combined with radiant floor loops.4 million btus from 80% efficient oil...Cost...136x.8=109,000btus/buck...40gals/month this year's price $1/g...$40-60/mth... $480-720/yr.gasstove...20,000btus/3hrs/dayx30=2 million btusgasdryer$stove...60g/yr 5/mth..$5-6/mth...$60-72/year2 mill/89,000=22gals/mth...5 mths...112gals/year...$120-$160in higher cost years.Basic lighting/refrig electric down to 300KW/mth...$45/mth...$540/year.Total costs$540-600 lights$120-160 gas-stove$060-072 gas-other$480-720 oil-RadiantHeat/DHW$1200-1552 for the year... $1800-2000+/yr now at lower temp... So... the plan... Saving $60/mth...$700/year and upping temp. 5 degrees.Cost to install changes...Contractor out $8000...My cost...$2500ish.Payback...if money earns 5%= 9 years roughly...then figure in cost of maintenance and make yourself really sick.Maybe better to go back to not knowing the numbers...near the stream chopping wood again,ajWell the best news would be the winter shocking electric bills would be Gone! From several hundred...to $45 for electric...and start buying fuel summers when the money is a plenty and the cost of fuel is the lowest. August fillups could last through the winter. Yeah!!...Winter $$$ then goes to Carribean beach time again!
*"Winter $$$ then goes to Carribean beach time again!"AJ...sounds good!new numbers to consider then:forget wood, forget oil, forget electric.Sell house for $XRent bungalow on Carribean beach for $Xpermanently near the blue waters...forgetting the cold stream.Then again, they don't ski down there ;-)
*Years ago, I used to work boilers at a local packing house. Once every few years, the local utility company would give notice of a rate increase. The big packer (with 6 each 120psi 900-hp boilers) would threaten to switch to fuel oil if the utility would raise their rates. They would run for about 2 to three weeks on fuel oil and the boilers were forever shutting down. The fire eye would get sooty and then it would shut down the burners. It was really a hassle, but after the utility lost about 3 weeks of natural gas revenues, they would relent and freeze this one customer's rates and we would switch back to natural gas. It was really a hassle but then, these monsters were huge and probably not as reliable as your smaller unit. Perhaps you may want to consider a set up that uses both natural gas or fuel-oil (for those emergencies or whatever) and use what ever is most convenient. I would also recommend that you locate your fuel tank above ground and then you won't have as much hassle with the EPA and getting rid of it will be so much more easier. Then again, with natural gas only, you won't have to get rid of a tank eventually. Ever consider a wood-burner or corn-burner? Scotty/Sioux city.
*I would go with gas boiler will stay cleaner less mantance . who knows what the price of anything will be . Oil needs service every year so it burns clean , oil has more parts to break .
*I've lived with both oil and natural gas. For me, all the talk of btu's is for naught as the cost of maintaining an oil burner, being at the mercy of local oil distributer, putting up with smell, dead shrubs around oil fill pipe, and finding a capable technician to service today's complicated oil burners, do not outweigh the convenience and cleanliness and low maintenance of natural gas.
*Randy...Natural gas is most peoples first choice. But where I am, there is only overpriced LP, and electric. Well maintained modern oil systems minimise smell, but I agree, don't eliminate it.near the stream,aj
*I heat with Gas. Don't know that I necessarily would install in a new building. In fact planning a ground source heatpump as we renovate.NG is convient and clean. Efficient relative to electric for waterheat/dryer. Gas flame (or wood) is great for a wok compared to an electric element on a stove. That is all I see to recommend gas.Oil or LP does have significant advantages that have not been mentioned.1. You have an on site storage vessel. You are in control of the input cost of your daily heat usage. Fill your tank/tanks off season and you will have HUGE savings vs spot price which is what you pay to the NG provider. If spot prices go crazy, as they did in winter of 00-01 you can, laugh all the way to the bank. Here in the midwest Jan price was 3to4x "normal" Jan for all sources. And even in "normal" Jan price is much higher July. If you use NG you are subject to the business practices/incompetence of your gas provider. Alliant, who provides my gas, apparently is not familiar with forward contracting for their (my) gas needs and due to severe winter of 00-01 purchased huge amounts of NG on the spot market. Who pays the bill? You/me. If you use Oil or LP national/regional "shortage" is irrelevant to you. Even in a normal year filling your tank in July/Aug for usage in Jan/Feb will "earn" you a better return that any security in which you might invest your $. Anyone else time fill their car gas tank at the station that is $0.03-0.04 less or do you just fill up at the first station you come to regardless of the price?2. Any idiot that can pull romex can install required oil lines for an oil burning furnace.3. Installing a oil burner does not voluntarily bring into your home huge quanitities of an explosive inflammable toxic vapor (natural gas).4. You can burn the same fuel you use in your heat source in your diesel mode of transport at 1/2 the government approved fuel price. This is illegal of course; as is farmers using "farm" fuel in their personal transport vehicle, never happens.5. Remember to fill tanks??? You that simple get a bigger tank which is what you should have anyhow. Min tank size should be large enough to eliminate refill from Dec1-Mar1. Follow plan in pt #1 and you have storage for entire heating season on hand. Have a backup electic source to run your equipment you are imune to the whims of weather and the corportate energy market/industry.6. When you smell fuel oil (yes stinks) you're in good shape (you still got heat). NG smells worse and when you smell it you got BIG problems.
*NEIOWA,"NG is convient and clean. Efficient relative to electric for waterheat/dryer."Commom misconception. You will not find an energy source more efficient than electricity. All heat production devices the rely on fire have losses associated with products of combustion and heat transfer. Electricity, seldom, if ever has any losses, at the consumer level. All losses were taken at the power plant. However, in most parts of the country, it is the most expensive energy source to use for heat.
*"All losses were taken at the power plant."There are also losses during the transmission of the power from the plant to your house.
*True, but I don't know what those losses are, do you? I think the line losses are relatively insignificant. I know that a very efficient power plant will operate in the range of 60-70% thermal efficiency. Most are not that efficient.
*another consideration on the electric front is that off-peak rates are usually available and depending the type of heating system and how the ultility handles peaks - off-peak can work well for space heating needs.I tired of installing thermostatically controlled radiant floor systems for customers and coming home to my wood boiler heated radiant slab that had cooled during the workday and didn't get back up to temp til bedtime. Was about to put in a propane water heater as a heat source when I ran the numbers on off-peak electric vs propane. My utility offers off-peak for $.048/kwh which is cheaper than propane when I priced it. As a proponent in general of decentralized power generation I'm not exactly walking the talk, but for now it's awful nice to come home to a house up to temp when it's -30 out.
*RoyIn my area non-summer (8 months) electric rates are 0.0334/kwh. Than number is 24*7. While effiencies have meaning when comparing systems using the same fuel, it really gets down to heat output per $1 of fuel when you are comparing different fuels and different types of systems.
*Cheap electric rates are rare for the most part. Way too expensive here. Just the delivery fee here is as high as the low costs being discussed.near the expensive electric stream,aj
*Bill,$0.0334/kwh is very, very cheap. If electricity cost that here in the the land of Uncommonly Weathly Edison (Commonwealth Edison) I would never consider any other source. Since you get 100% of what you pay for with electric heat, so much the better. The national average residential electric rate is about $0.08/kwh.I did a simple energy study and for my circumstances and electricity would have to cost $0.039/kwh or less to compete with $1.00/gallon LP, @94% efficiency. Here, now, NG is available at $0.45 - $0.48/therm for NG, but not available out in the sticks.Royboy, things may be different in your neck of the woods, but in most areas, peak electric rates apply to the cooling season only (June through September with ComEd). The rest of the year, there is more than enough to go around and they're happy to sell it.Warm, but with a big tank in my yard,Tim
*Tim - here, in northern WI, the electric utilities have their peak loads during the heating season. I subscribe to an off-peak heating program where I get a second meter through which I run my heating load & my water heater (I've also got a freezer tied into it though that's not what the utility has in mind). That line is radio interruptable by the utility, but in actuality it is only turned off for relatively short periods on rare occasions. All power through that meter costs half the rate of regular power! (currently $.048 rather than $.096/kwh) A good deal and worth checking with your utility to see if they offer something like this. My utility is a rural electric coop and there is another utility locally (a mega-corporate one) that has an off-peak program also but the terms aren't nearly as favorable. I'm fortunate in that regard.
*Rb,Actually I had a reduced rate because of electric heat and electric water heat, but ComEd is phasing those out and the cost with the break was still more than than the most expensive LP I've ever had to buy.I once worked for Commonwealth Edison and would watch the system demand climb in the afternoon on hot summer days. The rates they charge have turned most everyone off from electric heating. There is "interruptable" rates available to residential consumers, but again the break is, in my opinion, insignificant and its only for summer. I guess that's the cost of having 10 nuclear units in operation, 4 in decommissioning and decades of mismanagement.