I do love a good handsaw! I carry a 10 point Simons and an 8 point diston , both of which are older than I am. When I first started collecting tools I realized that the ones that I found at flea markets were not only cheap, but of a superior quality due to their age. I have bought , maybe 200 old Distons, some of which I restored and sold , others I use. The joy of a newly crowned and sharpened,well set saw is really something!
So how many of you are carrying real honest to goodness handsaws? Not plastic handled throw-aways, not japanese style pull saws.
Replies
You are probably the person to ask this question. About 35 years ago I found this old Diston,it has this little metal 'knob' ( I cannot say #### because it is *** out) about 6 -7 inches from the end on top of the blade. What was that for?
A question as old as the hills, and as many answers...the "nib" is purely decoration............really.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
A question as old as the hills, and as many answers...the "nib" is purely decoration............really.
I don't believe that. I believe the oldtimers dug the nib into the workbence when they were sharpening it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
If you ever sharpend a saw ( and I have many times) you'd know that the saw is in a saw vice..ya can't just hold on to it or jab the nib in the bench...sorry, but yer way off.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
Yeah... that little knob is called a titch. According to the Diston company's own literature of the time it was purely ornimental.
it was a sight .. like a rifle sight..
it can also be used for snagging something .. like a string line..
i have a 8point ... and a 12 point.. neither has been out of their case in years..
but they went to work with me every day for the first 20 yearsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
See http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/glossary.html under Saw Parts.
Thanks for the info, I cannot understand why a nib would be 'decoration' maybe a nib and a swirl-nib-swirl sort of thing. Sort of like fins on a car, all decoration. Don't ask me what a swirl is, like the nib I just made it up. Thanks again.
They put the nibs on there so neophytes would ask "what's that for"
Mr T
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am not a neophyte, remember I said I found the saw 35 years ago, been wondering about it ever since, glad to have finally asked the question.
I agree! It seems like the extra effort it would take in the manufacturing process to create that titch would hardly be worth the trouble. Maybe that is why so many other explanations have been resoned out. I was truly disapointed in the truth of it.
what truth?
the "tich" ?
do you think that Disston is the only one who ever made a saw ? they are the ones who stated it was only ornamental... i have no way of knowing if it served a purpose to whomever first notched one onto the end of their saw...
but i'd be surprised if Disston was the first.. and if they weren't the first , then how do they know it was only ornamental.. it may be that thye just never found out what the originator had in mind
or ... they could be exactly right ....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yes I like that theory!! O K . so the search for the purpose behind the titch is still on. So is it for scoring the beginning of a cut? Or how 'bout as an anchor point for scibing a radius ? Or maybe it was a measuring device for some ancient common dimension[say, the width of a mortise] . Some sort of sighting devise for free hand cutting? [did you know that you can cut a perfect 90 degree cut without drawing a line by watching the reflection of the edge of the board in the side of the saw]Perhaps when the reflection hit the titch it was a backcut?
Now that you mention it , I recall that the Diston ticth was rectangular in shape , but was more clover leaf shaped in older saws of other makes.
jay.. i looked and looked.. but i couldn't find anything other than that one in the disston tome..
i did find that they figure hand saws all the way back to the bronze age..
i also didn't know that disston stopped making saws in '55Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I remember reading (but don't know where) that the nib was a way to attach a protective sheath of some kind. Doesn't really make much sense though.
I have a couple of old disstons that need to be sharpened. I am interested in learning how to sharpen them myself but don't know where to begin.
Mark
PS - Almost had a less-than-brilliant co-worker ready to shell over $500 for a cordless saw and drill combo set that never needed batteries.
Edited 3/15/2005 8:59 pm ET by Mark
A fellow roofer had a Parkes handsaw which also had the nib. In his case he filed an edge on it and used it to sharpen his pencil.
One of the best rip saws I've ever used -- and still use -- was the Sandvik graduated tooth. It was 8 point at the toe, increasing to 3.5 point at the heel. It's especially good for ripping sheet material.
For cutting a roof from wet material -- usual in UK! -- I used to overset my 5 point F.T.Parkes to about 3 point and thin out the tip of each tooth to a point. It cut with about a 1/4" kerf but it didn't stick.
IanDG
I pack 2 8 points in my framing tool box - one with the handle turned around backwards - and a 12, a 14 and a couple back saws in my trim box. Use most of them at least once a week - the 14 pt not so much.
Okay, Ron Budgell, Sphere, Jay, whoever, I've been wanting to learn to sharpen my saws. Can it be learned online? Will someone please try to take time to explain it? Thanks.Free speech leads to a free society.
Jim, since it is you asking, I'll try to remember to do a pictorial tomorrow and post it. Too tired tonight, usually hit the sack at 8PM and rise at 3AM to avoid the Seattle traffic tomorrow AM.
After correct set and true, biggest deal is to take full file length strokes at the correct angle -- not trivial, kinda like the machinist apprentice drill for filing a flat block.
Cannot recall the poster previously about his sharpening skills so a needle will slide down the points, that is what you want, maybe he will post his methods also.
Thanks, Art. I'll look forward to seeing that (but talk real slow, okay?).Free speech leads to a free society.
http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
Great site, Dunc. Thanks. Printed the danged thing out. Let's see now...need to build a vise, get some tools...I'll see you guys later.Free speech leads to a free society.
Twiddle about, Twiddle about..........
a saw wrest and file, a screwriver for tooth set............get on twidling..file on bro'..file on.
PS..don't trash a good saw , learnin.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
You can get a really good Pliers type saw set at Hardwicks in Seattle.Infinitely adjustable.Perfect set every time.And cheap !!
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Jim,
I'll give it a go this evening and the rest can criticize my technique. Offf to work now.
Ron
Ok this is my way of sharpening a saw. I am not confusing my way with the word of God. Don't anybody else make that mistake either -it's all too common.
First I clamp the saw into the saw vise. Mine is homemade. It is two pieces of 3/4" ply about a foot square with a door hinge on one edge and two oak strips about 18" long on the other edge. Thjere's a sketch here somewhere. I clamp the saw vise into an ordinary vise to hold the saw at a reasonable height to work on it. Add lots of light.
Then, I joint the saw. I run a mill bastard file down the teeth while holding the file as square as I can to the plane of the blade. The object is to get all the teeth to the same height so they will all do some of the work when you're cutting something.
The main reason I started to file my own saws was that the machine filing I used to pay for put a big hollow into the line of the teeth. That can't possibly be good for efficiency.
Then I start filing. You have to use the right size triangular file. Larger is marginally OK. Smaller isn't. With the right size file, you will be using no more than half the file face when you're working. For the teeth the jointing file took the tops off of, you have to file them until the flat is gone from the top. The rest will probably need only three or four strokes.
I hold the file with its top face level and stroke it level with the teeth but, with a crosscut saw, inclined back about 15 degrees toward the handle. Rip saw teeth are filed with the file square to the blade and at a steeper angle - usually 90 degrees to the line of the teeth. The file is still held level, though.
Then I do the other side the same way.
Then I set it if I think it needs it. I use an ancient Stanley saw set. There is no substitute for a real saw set. I set my saws to the Teeth Per Inch so my 8 point is set at 7.
If you have to do a lot of filing, you might have to sneak up on the goal rather than trying to do it all in one shot.
When you look down the line of the teeth of your crosscut, you should see a V-groove in a dead straight line. The ideal to aim for is to be able to hold your saw teeth up, handle end high and slide a needle all the way down the saw blade without it falling off before the end.
I was stretching the truth a bit above. I don't manage to do that all the time. But I always try it.
Do you want to get at it, Jim? Serious, for real? I might have a spare saw set.
Ron
Ron: thanks for the writeup, gives me an excuse not to follow thru on my 'promise' to Jim for a writeup.
Jim: I've plenty of sawsets, send me an e-mail and I'll mail you one postpaid if you want. However, only have 2 saw vices, and both are family heirlooms.
Thanks, Art. Let me see if I can work a deal with Ron first, okay? Appreciate the offer though. Really. How's that shoulder healing up? Going stir crazy yet?Free speech leads to a free society.
Thanks for the concern Jim. Have gained another few pounds thru inactivity. When Jeff came to weld up his winch, he was even worse than DW in not letting me try to lift anything. Last week has seen a big increase in ability to move.
For those not familiar with the injury, had total rotator cuff tear of 2 tendons , surgery was Jan 14th.
Got to start driving 3 weeks ago, loss of freedom for 1 month and relying on DW for transport was an eye opener. Cannot live in King County without transport. Went to LA for a business trip, spent $200 in cab fares in 3 days just getting from airport to office. Took 40 minutes to go 5 miles on Orange County bus during rush hour, worse than the freeways. Moral of story is don't ever lose your ability to drive for injury or for DIY or whatever, it is sure a pain.
Another month Doc says before I should even TRY to swing a hammer (already have cheated, with just wrist movement though) . Puts a big crimp in carpentry, not to mention blacksmithing hobby. Can at least lift my arm now to shake hands with someone. Another year and should be good as when I was 59!
Ron,Here's an easy way to keep that file square when jointing the teeth of the saw.Take two pieces of wood.Cut a kerf in both, near the top of the wood. This kerf has to be sized so that the file fits snugly into the kerf. And the kerf has to be half the width of the file.Glue the two pieces of wood together, with the kerfs aligned inside. (Trial fit your file before gluing, and make whatever adjustments are necessary to the kerfs. You want that file to fit very snugly when you are finished.)After the glue has cured, run the chunk through the tablesaw to put a kerf in the bottom, that extends up into the previous kerfs. Forming a "T" of kerfs.Now stick the file through the enire thing, through the original kerfs, and viola' you have a file holder that will hold the file square to the sawblade.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Also, be careful when jointing.You should watch all the teeth of the saw, and when the lowest tooth has just been kissed by the file, that's when you stop.Run the "jointer" very lightly over the teeth the first time, to determine whether you even need to go any further or not. If all the teeth are kissed equally that first time, that's all she wrote. Get to sharpenin'.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
I built my whole house with nothing but handsaws. Cut every pc of siding, framing and trim .Basically two saws 10pt. old disston and a rip.My friend cracked up when he saw me ripping a pc. of 1/4 rnd.Of course that was when I was idealistic and was cutting all my firewood and timber with 1 & 2 man crosscut. We were finding brand new Simmonds 2 man crosscuts in old hardware stores in Va for $20.
Now ive got solar electric at house so sun is helping cut boards now. I wonder if doing all that and notching out about 30 log cabins with a Sager dbl bit is why I have tendonititis now? By the way my business name is Crosscut Woodworking!
I asked earlier in this thread if Jay..."Swaged his Rakers."This was a saw sharpening "inside joke." I guess no one picked up on it. For good info on sharpening crosscut saws check this out.
I don't get it? Isn't a raker the blunt "tooth" in between the sharp teeth on a 2 man saw that cleans out the kerf? If so then I still don't get it!
You are right that rakers are found on most two-man saws, and also on one-man crosscutting saws--generally on saws for felling, bucking and for crosscutting large timber-frame components. Most of the saws mentioned here are plain-toothed saws w/o rakers. But I figured that your collection must include a few of the big crosscutters. M-toothed and Great American toothed saws have vertical edges on the teeth found on either side of the gullets that work as rakers (but slow the cutting). The fastest cutting hand saws (for crosscutting) have true rakers that are slightly shorter than the cutters and are "swaged" out to a 30-40 degree angle and work like chisels peeling out the severed fibers scored by the cutting teeth. To be really effective the rakers should not be "blunt," but rather about as sharp as a chisel. Even chain saws have raker teeth that should be filed just shorter than the cutters for the saw to work its' best.The record for a one-man crosscut saw (with swaged rakers) is less than a minute and a half to cut through a 32" diameter log (about as fast as a chain saw!).I had a summer job once in Montana clearing trails of fallen trees in wilderness areas where chainsaws were not allowed. The forester who taught me how to sharpen hand saws (especially the big crosscutters) was fond of asking saw sharpeners, "how do you swage the rakers?" as a way of finding out if the sharpener really knew his way around a handsaw. I was just having some fun in memory of Forester Lynch. Few still use hand saws often or well, even fewer know what a raker is, and this little game of mine was a ploy to see if you or anyone else out there knew how to swage rakers. Just trying to spark some more interest in these great old saws.Check out this attachment on the History of Crosscuting Saws, Saw Vise Building, Sharpening Tools and Techniques (p.18 is on swaging rakers).
Edited 3/20/2005 2:10 pm ET by basswood
Thanks for the info. So I guess that I don't swage my rakers, since none would be found on my carpenters saws.
Yes , I do have a few 2 man felling saws but have never used them. The material that I usually use is a few steps further away from the forest than that.
I hope you get to try out one of those grand old two-man crosscut saws some time. Swaging rakers is actually a bugger, don't know if you'll want to try that.
I am glad you found it interesting though.Thinking back to my log bucking days, I believe the wind that was our nemesis (blowing trees down across the trails), was the loggers friend--if the wind felled the tree, the "windfall" just had to be bucked (half the work was already done). I think this is the how the word "windfall" came to mean a great benefit or an unexpected gain.
Nice tip, Luka. Thanks.Free speech leads to a free society.
Thanks, Ron.
Yes, I am going to try. The past few times I have gotten a saw back from the sharp shop I've been disappointed. Used to have a guy locally who did all my saws and chisels and plane irons (hollow ground my chisels) who did a beautiful job, but went to drop some stuff off one day after work and his trailer was locked up tighter than a chastity belt. House locked up too. I think he left the area on short notice for some reason or another.
Anyways, since then I've been sharpening my own irons and chisels with decent results, but have yet to try filing my handsaws. This is the final nudge I need.
Saw set? I'd be honored to have a set from another craftsman, but I already got a book from you I couldn't read so I feel indebted to you already. We'd have to come up with something I could trade you for it...you're not much for reading fiction? Got some pet books here but I'm a fiction guy.
Let me sleep on it, Ron. I'll be drawing up an addition in the shop tomorrow so maybe I'll paw around in there a little and see what might make a suitable trade...kind of drawing a blank right now.
Thanks again.Free speech leads to a free society.
Jim,
You don't owe me a thing.
The book was on an open offer and you happened to come across it first. I'm sorry you didn't get anything out of it but I hope somebody will and then pass it on.
I was hoping the floating book thing would expand and lead to some interesting discussions in the watcha reading thread but it seems like that isn't going to happen. I got a book from Mike Smith by way of Ian DG and read it and passed it on to "Learningjim". The book that you received was like the price of my entry into the club.
So I'll find that thing on the weekend if I still have it and send it on and you decide what you're going to do then, but I don't expect a thing. I haven't used it in years since somebody gave me the old Stanley tool.
Ron
As da BS flys!
OK, gonna start a new thread on nib/tisch and purpose (will include a #7 nib pix) . Go there. Anyway, I'll beleive what Pop told me and what his Pop told him. Dat guy at disstonwhatever.net is just another BSer IMHO.
I do..I have some schweet oldies. I sharpen my self about 3 times, then get a serious shop job.
Diston had a blend of steel that is awesome..but, the scope of work I have recently been involved in does not require too much of them, they stay in the house.
Last yr. I ripped an 8x8 to a 5x8 four foot long..Mr.Diston saved the day..3.5 TPI. no power on site..'cept elbow type. IIRC, it was about 15 mins.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
You must have freakin arms like Popeye!
Whale blow me down uk uk uk uk uk uk!
Mr T
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Five Distons, D100 8 pt and 10pt. A 12 pt and two rips saws. One of the rip saws I had gotten filed into a 5 1/2 pt crosscut. This saw really eats thru framing lumber.I could cut a 4x6 with this saw almost as fast as walking over to get a skilsaw.Also have three skewbacks, no name that I can see.
mike
I still carry 3 hand saws in my van every day- a 4-1/2 pt. rip, and a 8 and 12 pt. crosscut. The rip is a old Disston, and the 2 crosscuts are old Nicholsons.
Plus I have another 1/2 doz. saws in my shop of various makes and tooth patterns.
None of them get the workout they used to ( actually, neither do I ), but I still enjoy using them on occasion.
My favourite at this time is an 8 point progressive ground straight back which I think is a Sears but is nonetheless a great saw. I also usually have a 5 1/2 Diston rip and an ancient 12 point skew with no name. I sharpen them all myself and I can slide a needle down the crosscuts.
I carry a saw I made myself, too, which looks like a keyhole saw except that the blade is curved slightly and the blade is hung under the handle kind of like a chopping knife. I made it when I lived in Newfoundland and did a lot of work with 6" clapboard. i often needed to crosscut a clap in place - underneath the overlapping board and this saw was perfect for the job. It still comes out a lot for odd jobs too delicate for the sawzall.
Ron
So point the camera at the homemade saw already !!!Yeesh, we gotta tell you everything ???; )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Luka
You'll be waiting weeks for a picture. I use one of them old fashioned film cameras.
ron
I'm a-waitin' !I ain't goin' anywhere...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
I carry two little hand saws in my hardwood nailer case for cutting jambs and casings for hardwood to slide under.
I have a mastercraft 14 hand saw that I used for about a day in 2003 when 50 million people lost electricity.
When I take one out I tell who ever is with me to check out my new cordless saw.
Have a good day
Cliffy
When I take one out I tell who ever is with me to check out my new cordless saw.
That's good. I'm laffin'.
I don't own a single battery operated tool!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
But do you swage your rakers?
200!! I gotta a lot of catching up to do this summer at garage sales, probably only have 80 or so hand saws, 5 of which were grandpa's.
Absolute hands down favorite for actual usage is Diston #95 cast steel docking saw, can cut a 4x4 oak faster than the skilsaw can get plugged in.
Well as I said, I've bought 200 or so and sold some, quite a few actualy. I used to buy and sell at flea markets. Worst sale ever was to a lady who told me that she was buying a bunch of them [20 or more] for her husband. Hubby comes by later and tells me that she is actualy gonna paint cute little scenes on them for resale at craft shows. I tracked her down and tried to buy them back, explaining to her all the qualities of these fine tools, but it was no go. hated to see them go that way.
Look at it this way-
all that paint will preserve those saws for some future generation that will appreciate them.
good point!
jay was askin...
So how many of you are carrying real honest to goodness handsaws? Not plastic handled throw-aways, not japanese style pull saws.
Well Jay, I do have plastic handled throw aways, and a few japanese saws too, but I also got a sh*t load of good ol' disstons, Shurley Dietrich and even one of them Mcparlin saws with the carvings. Now, the Mcplarlin don't get out of the cabinet often, but once, when I was more stupid, I did use it on site.
Smarter now, I use standard disstons for the run of the mill stuff.
they just don't make em like they used to eh?
I think the sweetest moment was cuttin some ply in a new construction area, and the power went off. The handsaws let me just continue unipeded when the trades all around me came to a standstill.
Eric
in Calgary
Jay
Like someone else said, I carry a Japanese pull saw plus a couple old hand saws. They don't get a lot of use though.
I don't have as many as you do but I got a pile of em. Also have about 100 handles on a rope. Bought them at an auction for 20 bucks.
One of the nicest old saws that I have is an old Sears, before Sears and Roebucks, dovetail saw, cuts so sweet. Teeth are so fine I don't know how you'd sharpen it, haven't had to and I've cut a boat load of dovetails with it.
Doug
Your right about that nub on the saw, all those other guys are just making "educated guesses"
Edited 3/15/2005 6:37 am ET by Doug@es
I always have one in my toolbox. Old ones are snapped up pretty quickly by collectors and such, so I don't own any.
When we were framing the "spec house from hell" One of the guys I hired had to cut a small notch in a 2X6. He was going to head for his truck and get a sawzall and extension cord, but I pulled out my hand saw. He cut the notch, then told me he hadn't used a hand saw for 15 years.
I was on a job once where they were setting trusses when they found they had to cut an overhang off. The job came to a standstill while they went to get extension cords and a circular saw. They porobably killed 5 minutes with 6 guys and a crane waiting. They could have had the overhang cut off in less than a minute with a hand saw.
I carry the newer ones in my toolbox,a Japanese and a Stanley shorty for aggressive cuts and when I do trim work I use them constantly. I have about 30 old ones most of them Disston which I still use around the house. I have to get them sharpened or do it myself and these days I just don't have the time for that. Somewhere in the pile of tools lies a beautiful saw vise and a saw set that were Grandpas. Some of the fancier handles on those old Disstons fit like an old well worn glove.
Did some one say hand saws???!!!...
I dug mine out.
I think this is all of them..........
...
Iluvdots....
Mr T
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
NICE COLLECTION!!!
Keep it up, we'll soon be even. (G).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
Thanks for the picture! Looks like you have some real beauties in there!!..........
In your pic...I do not have all the handsaws. Matter of fact, I can't remember seeing the one I had left, around here for a while. Probably walked off...The small saw in the lower left...LOVE that saw !!!!That sucker gets used here... constantly !! I bought my first one ten years ago, and since then, it has had three blades, and has done the majority of my non-power cutting tasks. Large and small alike. 2x12's. Formica. PVC pipe. Hanging on with one hand-reaching way out- and cutting off rafter ends... You name it, the saw goes through it like a hot knife through warm butter.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.