I live in a house that was built in 1918. We’ve owned it for 6 years and love it. However, it’s never undergone an overall updating(you know, insulation, electrical, plumbing, etc.) except for fixing small parts of individual systems. We would like to do a relatively major overhaul including an addition of a master bedroom and bathroom. Things we need to do are: New siding, insulation, repair and paint old windows or use sash replacements, whole new kitchen, remodel full bath upstairs, new ductwork and possibly new furnace, retrofit air conditioning, all new plumbing, some electrical additions, a few plaster walls that need repairing and/or replacing
I am a superintendent in new construction and have also done a few remodels. I plan to do as much of the work as I can reasonably do myself to save money with my wife as a helper… I mean lead.
My overall question is with the safety of my family(I have two young children) in mind how can I tear into this old beast without spending a fortune on lead paint/asbestos risk assesments/abatements? Would it be wisest for us to move out during the demo/rebuilding work? Keep in mind money is an issue. Can we do this in a timely fashion while following safety practices for dealing with the possibility of lead paint, etc. I don’t want to be at it for the next 10 years. I want to do this right not like we did remodels just a 5-10 years ago which was tear into everything without a care for what we might be breathing, ingesting or absorbing.
Or should we tidy it up and sell it and build new? Keep in mind we love this old house and I would love to restore to it’s former/modern glory.
Any opinions or facts?
Replies
test materials to see just what you are dealing with - formulate a plan with a realistic timetable and budget - move family and possessions out for the duration, make it happen -
or spend 10 years living in the dirt, construction, and disorder of a project...now, that can be a character building experience for the whole family, but my vote would be for less character - -
DOUD, 27 years and not done...lots of character tho...
Scooter,
I've done several old houses that I lived in while redoing them.
The one before this one was a serious nightmare to live in as I worked but there werent many options and we didnt have the money to rent something somewhere else.
Katrina a Jolie moved into a friends house while I lived in the corner of the basement on the job for almost a year.NIGHTMARE!!!! Dont ask.
It brought us to where we are today...whewwwwww and all the past horror is history.....whewwwwww.
In our circa:1680 house here there are many rooms that are perfectly habitable (compared to my last house....lol).
If thats the case with you than stay there and work on it and save money on a rental.
We have a tempo kitchen thats actually the same size as my friends kitchen on the upper west side of Manhatten....lol...so its not that bad....yet.
If you have the money....move out! If not, hunker in.
Put together decent living spaces.
GEt the paint chips checked for asbestos.
I believe if you use low heat on the heat guns to strip the paint, even asbestos wont be toxic (along with resporators as you do it).
I thin Piff told me that but I ain't quotin' him.
Old houses IMO can't be beat...the karma and past is as warm as a house can get and you'll be adding to that karma and history.
To me, it sure beats any newish house.
Newish houses to me at this point bore the hell outta me and I've been doing this for about thirty years.
Another optiom is to rent a trailor to put on the property to live in and a container to keep all your stuff in.
Currently I have a hugeeee container for all my tools and materials on my land and pay about $90 a month for it.
Not sure how much trailors go for.
The best and least expense route would be to section off areas of the house that you can live in untill the remaing is fisnished then reverse the procedure.
this is how I've always done it.
We dont have a dime in the bank.just loans so I should know how its done economically.
I invest im myself.not stocks or whatever.
We all should do the same IMO.
Be well and have fun tee hee
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
We moved into our NEW house long before it was completed. The local officials did'nt care. The building inspector came out for insulation inspection and asked me when I was going to move in. He said "do what ever you want, they tie my hands so bad there's nothing I could do about it anyway".
We lived here 2 years before we got a CO. I can't emphasize enough what a pain this can be. Everytime you want to work on something you have to mobilize everything.
Now add to that all the dust and debris from demolition.
Buy yourself a camper and park it on site. You can sell it when you're done.
There was a two year old boy at my son's day care a couple of years ago who was the most miserable little kid I ever saw. Always crying, complaining and nose running. At the time his dad was having a gut job done on their ranch and adding a second story. They had a full apartment in the basement and were living there during the job. A year later when the job was done, this kid was 100% different. Typical happy, goofy little boy. I don't know if it was a coincidence, but I think the lead dust, drywall dust and everything else that kid was breathing was doing something to him.
My wife and I have lived in a couple of gut jobs before we had kids, no problem, but I would never do that to children. During the rehab of our latest house, we rented a local house on a month to month basis. (Lots are too small around here for a mobile home) Spent $12,000 on rent and utilities, but it was worth every dime. Before we moved back in to our house, I had lead dust tests taken. Found pretty heavy concentrations all over the place. Luckily we had time to clean it all up before moving back in and I can sleep at night knowing my kids were never exposed to anything.
I've done it with kids and without kids....without kids is better.
Move out. small apt, flat, or whatever you can get...I suspect you'll move a lot faster on the remodle...and maintain a decent quality of life for all.
I vote move. I have done it both ways. Lived in a couple, done a couple while living elsewhere. With kids and without. Move. You will get the work done faster, your family will be happier and you will be able to relax when done with your work for the day. DanT
We stayed out of the log castle until the other half, a newer addition was "livable'..the log half will take yrs. at the rate I am going..so with my experiance I say...get out of your own way.
Stayin onsite in a temp. trailer is likely the best of both worlds..you are there to guard the place while it's tore open, and ya can get away to the sanctuary of no construction zone...
Kids around a remodel site is not a good idea..many , many reasons.
Around here, central KY..a decent used 12x70 mobile can be had for around 6 grand..or so. Park one in the back 40, water can be piped in, and run ya a power feed..septic can go into a pumpout tank..
and when yer done, sell the trailer or turn it into the kids playhouse..or a shop, or MIL lodgeing..(eeek)
good luck
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I do a lot of this type work, Scooter, and looking at your list, I'd have no trouble living in the house while doing what you propose, but I do have a couple questions. Like, you say you're a superintendent in new construction. Are you gonna work your day job to earn money AND try to do this overhaul at the same time? Or are you gonna take a sabatical to do this work "I plan to do as much of the work as I can reasonably do myself to save money with my wife as a helper"?
Because looking at your list, I'd have to plan about a year full time with a professional helper (not to imply your wife won't meet that criteria). And if I were trying to work a steady job and do this in my spare time, there's no way it would get done in anything even close to a year. Now you might be faster than me, but still, do you catch my drift here?
So this is how I'd organize the job.
"...an addition of a master bedroom and bathroom." I'd do this first. Complete. Then there will be a working bathroom for the rest of the project, and every night when you lay those bones down, you'll see the completed portion and it will encourage you through the "will this ever end?" part of the job. Keep the addition sealed off from the existing house until it's painted, ready to move into.
"New siding, insulation, repair and paint old windows or use sash replacements, whole new kitchen, remodel full bath upstairs, new ductwork and possibly new furnace, retrofit air conditioning, all new plumbing, some electrical additions, a few plaster walls that need repairing and/or replacing"
New siding can wait until the end.
Insulation done piecemeal as walls are opened in individual rooms.
Windows can be purchased together for maximum bargaining power, but installed one room at a time.
Kitchen cabinets built, or delivered, before existing kitchen is demoed. Send kids to grammas, work long days to demo existing kitchen, rewire, replumb, insulate, drywall, install cabinets and flooring in new kitchen in...say three weeks tops.
Remodel bath upstairs after new master bath is COMPLETE.
HVAC to be done by as close to all at once as possible to keep subs costs down. Could be virtually anytime during project, but the earlier the better.
You'll have to have an electrician on call. He's the one who'll have to make several trips. If you plan to do the wiring yourself, be sure you know what you're doing. You screw up the plumbing your house smells bad. You screw up your wiring and you burn the place down.
Repairing walls as you come to them, but I'd do my best to do rooms one at a time, moving two kids into one bedroom while you redo the other, then into the first FINISHED room while you redo the second etc.
Pretty straight forward, really. The keys would be taking time off to give this project your full attention, and complete each room before moving on to the next. Try to do this thing in your spare time? Heaven help you.
<<<Try to do this thing in your spare time? Heaven help you.>>
Bwahahahahaha
Whats spare time????
I have a hard time doing it full time with three guys working for me ten hours every day.
I think this guy may have to take you out after a few years for suggesting that...lol....and I don't mean for dinner.
Be restored in yer spare time
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Great response Jim.
I would add.......why not insulate from the outside when you do the siding??
Save the house, make a plan,
Good luck.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
<We've owned it for 6 years and love it.
Keep in mind we love this old house and I would love to restore to it's former/modern glory.>
I think you just said you are going to keep the place and remodel.
Since you have the gung ho steaming downtrack I would say take the hardest work first to harness that energy into it's most useful results. That would be Blodgett's opinion of the addition first and for the reason's he cites.
Other stuff can be done piecemeal as you can. heh heh
Some stuff you can never know till you get in there and have done it.
Many folks complete the process and say never again. Actually most.
If you decide to do it, plan and plan somemore, then hit the ground running. 10 years can fly by before you know what happened:o)
"sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",
Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
Edited 7/17/2004 6:39 pm ET by rez
I've never had the luxury of renting another place while I remodeled the principle residence. One room at a time. Empty it and seal it.
MES
Jim Blodgett had a good reply about scheduling your time and so on. I've heard that remodeling a house is unbelievably stressful and has caused lots of divorces. Hope your wife is understanding. I live in an old house that was built by a farmer while he and his wife lived in the garage. I suppose compared to the garage, this house is a palace, but.... My wife gets mad when I start to fix anything because she can't stand living in a "construction site".
One of my first questions during the initial meeting with a potential client is, "How good is your marriage?" Makes them look at me funny first, then laugh, then they start asking questions. Then I go into the gory detailed explanation of the reality of a remodel. Scooter, Blodget's advice was sound and you'd be wise to follow it. Good luck with the headaches and challenges ahead. Gotta love a house to go through what you're proposing.
Edited 7/17/2004 11:00 pm ET by Homewright
I've been in a house that has been in a torn-up state for years. It has pulled me down personally in ways I wouldn't have anticipated and I won't claim it was worth it. You sound a lot better organized than me and with better skills too, so I'll just recommend taking what these guys have written here seriously enough to sit down and carefully design and then evaluate your plan.
Give yourself 1/2 day or so, find a library with back copies of "Old House Journal" and tuck in.
It will all depend on what you and your family are like and what your needs and tolerance levels are.
And goals: New siding? Vinyl, or real stuff? Does the house have architectual features you want to restore or preserve? Or is it "just an old house?"
Where you live might also play a role: there seem to be higher levels of pfficial concern in some areas as opposed to others.
Spend some time at the EPA site as well: do a google search for "EPA lead" (without the quotes.)
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
lots of good advice already, i've tackled a project very similar to yours,1100' addition,full gut on old house and new elec.,plumbing,hvac etc. i'm at 10 months with at least 4 to go ,full time on it. besides all the normal things [costs twice as much ,takes twice as long,never expected that problem and on and on]. one cost i never figured on was, i have a daughter that i have missed out on for a year,i try to attend all the events in her life, but day to day little things i'm not home when shes awake except for about 1 hr a day. because of that i'm not sure i would tackle this again. but once your up to your a$$ in alligators............ larry
I did worse than you're planning to my place about 10 years ago; jacked it up and moved it twenty feet then poured a basement under it. Then moved everything down into the basement and covered it all with drop cloths and tarps and poly sheeting. Then we tore off the roof and the west wall and added an extension and a second storey. Then tore out the inside and bumped the studs to 2x6 and re-wired, re-plumbed, re-insulated, and gyprocked; then put all new siding on the outside.....
We got an out-of-season hotel condo about 15 minutes away for the six months it took to get the place 'finished'. The only other option that would have made sense would have been a camper or M.H. parked on the lot, but the lot is small and the condo was very cheap (DW worked there at the time). Trying to live in the house as we finished it even after it became marginally possible (ie, new roof on and dried in) would have been insanity, and even had we survived that, it would have slowed the work enormously.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
When I built my house 20 years ago, my wife and I moved in unfinished.
We had 1 shower working in 1 bath, 1 sink in the kitchen, and 1 toilet in another bath.
The upstairs (guest area) was totally unfinished for a year.
The outdoor siding was half finished.
And so on.
Been finishing and fixing things to this day, including improvements and additions.
My office in the basement was stud walls for years.
Best advise is to finish one piece at a time, and don't tackle all at once.
Did that in our old house, picked one room and did it, didn't touch anything else till the one room was done complete. Left the final electric clean-up, plumbing, and siding for last.
Good luck
Jeff
I have seen it happen quite a few times.
when you try and live IN a major remodel you end up doing things out of sequence.
this screws up EVERYBODIES schedule!
Even if it is just a DIYer he will be bouncing back and forth between "trades" and will inevitably end up dismantleing something that was "finished" to do something behind it.
And if subcontractors are involved they will want more $$ if they have to make 6 trips instead of 2 to do the same amount of work.
Some won't even take the job because of the added hassle and save-a-buck priorities of most DIYs.
Move out , get it DONE, move in, save your marriage!Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
Anyone remember the Golden Rule of remodeling"
"It takes twice the time and three times the gold than originally planned."
Well I seem to have the opposite problem of some of you guys, my wife likes to start tearing things in the house up then leave them for me to come finish, usually things that I have no desire to change. Bust a big whole in the bathroom door for the cats...oops, door broken time for me to hang new one in non-standard opening. Carpet not nice enough in living room, tear it all up on a whim and let husband put in new floor. Don't like the closet doors..take them down and throw them in the dumpster without telling husband..now wants new doors in non-standard opening.
-Ray
Woe.... I thought I was impulsive. Was sitting at my then girlfriend's, now wife's, kitchen table one morning, looking at the wallpaper hanging in strips in the other room. I stood up from the table and started stripping it. By noon her daughters had joined in and we had it almost all off. Another time, at the same table, I noticed that the formica was loose, so I just pulled it up.
Ended up building a new table. Tried a new (for tables) construction tecnique--like a SIP, I laminated 2" of EPS between two 1/4" layers of Luan plywood. Then used epoxy as the finish. I had routed the thing into a circle (unfortunately, without a circle guide) and sealed the edges by gluing layer after layer of drywll tape using just yellow glue. It's held up quite well, (made it about 8 years ago) though it's now in my shop/art studio--wife never liked it.
We bought a fixer-upper 6 years ago. On day 1 (ONE!), my wife pulled up the carpeting upstairs and in the stairwell all by herself while I was at work.
We lived with tack strips and stuck-on underlayment for 2 years before I got to the stage of doing the flooring.
She said the old carpet smelled and couldn't stand it. Bless her heart.
> On day 1 (ONE!), my wife pulled up the carpeting upstairs
I prefer to leave the old carpet in place as long as possible. It's only going to get tossed eventually, so in the mean time it's a perfectly fitted drop cloth that usually doesn't slip under foot too much. Finish from the top down, because gravity makes what you're doing fall onto what you haven't done yet, instead of messing up finished work.
-- J.S.
We haven't remodeled the entire house, but one day I came home and found her demolishing our deck, and another day (some years better) I found her smashing the tile in the upstairs bath.
Dan! She's not demolishing! That is creative archaeology. I've been accused of that myself now and then.
No, she was demolishing, just not very good at it. She'd been at it for 2 hours when I found her. I gave the deck three good whacks with a sledge and down it came.
You omit one critical piece of information: How badly do you want to still be married once this is all done?
Based on my experience I STRONGLY STRONGLY STRONGLY advise you not try to remodel on this scale while living in the house. I'm 20+ years into a major remodel of my old girl while living in her, and still not done. It is a DUMB DUMB DUMB idea!! I would not recommend it to my worst enemy! You will be tearing into every system of the house; you can't redo systems one room at a time; there is no way to keep it clean enuf for your wife, and your furniture and possessions will be in the way ALL THE TIME.
If you are not living in her, you can start by gutting her down to the studs -- forget keeping "some" of the old plaster. Then you can very quickly and efficiently tear out all the old systems you are not going to keep -- plumbing, heating, old wiring, etc. With her all opened up, you can quickly find and take care of rot, structural problems, floor problems (under the old tub and toilet), drainage and foundation problems. I would assume these problems exist until proved otherwise.
Another reason to rip out the old plaster; you can install firestops (you probably have balloon framing here) and properly insulate the stud cavities.
With the frame bare, thoroughly measure everything. I would advise you to make 2D CAD models of each floor for sure; 3D if you have the ability. Include locations of all studs and floor joists in the model in addiiton to door and window openings. You will not regret it later! Then you can plan your HVAC and plumbing properly. Will you do HVAC and plumbing yourself? If not, assume that contractors (particularly the ductwork installers) will hack the sh*t out of the framing UNLESS you give them very specific instructions and have all the runs planned out. That's merely one reason why the CAD models really help. (In addition to providing instructions, I'd stand over them and make sure they didn't turn on their Sawzalls before they turned on their brains!)
Jack up & reinforce the main beams to make her level again and thereby square the door openings, etc. Maybe pour a basement floor? (Don't forget the new sewer connection.) Then rebuild her one system at a time like building a normal house. Imagine trying to do this while living in her!
You mention repairing the existing windows (almost 100 years old). Good idea. Unless your old ones have significant rot, the wood in new windows will not be as good or last as long. We don't let God make real trees anymore, and finger joints in windows are a joke. Also, nothing beats old-fashioned sash weights! Spend some money on good quality combination screen/storms to get the insulation boose. There was a great article about repairing windows in FHB recently.
You mention concern about lead and asbestos. After all my time working on my house, and having been quite lax about protecting myself, I recently had myself tested for lead. Nada. Wear a dust mask when the dust is bad and don't eat the stuff. As for asbestos, the danger of asbestos in residences got WAY overrated; the trial lawyers pumped it for all it was worth and sued themselves filthy rich. Wear a mask, wet the asbestos before you remove it, and then put it in a garbage bag.
If your kids aren't living there, that's the main thing.
If you are going to be re-installing big "period" trim (like 5-1/2" casings and 10" tall baseboard), I have more advise for you -- email me.
Don't expect your contractors to DESIGN anything or to plan ahead for the next step. Like deciding where to put a door or window, how to set it in the wall, how to match old trim, etc. Assume that unless you provide specific measurements and instructions, the window installer and drywaller will do their work in a way that will make the trim carpenter's job extraordinarily difficult. (Presumably you are not going to want cheesy, flimsy modern trim in this house.)
If you are going to overdo anything, "overdo" your planning. I've done so many stupid, preventable things because I didn't plan enough.
Good luck!
I'm 2 1/2 years into living in and doing too many things at once to what was a four unit apartment building, on its way to single family status.
Divide the project into two phases, the structural/systemic phase when you have to be out and open everything at once, and the room by room finishing phase. Do the structural/systemic work, get a kitchen, bath, and bedroom or two habitable, then move in and work room by room.
Mine is only tolerable because I've been able to keep one apartment functional and mostly undisturbed to live in while the other three are under construction. And we have another house for the adult children, where my wife can escape from it all.
-- J.S.
J.S.--
Great advice...this is how we are doing it. Systems first, pin down a sanctuary to escape to at the top of the house. Then finish one room at a time. But we don't have kids yet.
It does get very tedious cleaning and dusting. Pack away the good rugs, slipcover the furniture, and don't bring out any knick-knacks until the thing is done.
We were able to open up a central wall basement to attic to run plumbing and and runs for the electric/AC, etc. right away. Easy, because that wall was already kind of open.
Yes, there are a couple of things we've had to redo...(like the bathtub on the first floor). But there are many, many things we've made better decisions about because we've lived here during the construction.
I'm sure we've breathed in enough "bad things" to last us a lifetime. But then, we live in Chicago. The breathing in "bad things" probably started LONG before now.
The weblog keeps us sane. With it, we can laugh at and publish things that would normally have us tearing out our hair. We're learning a ton. We're meeting people we would never have met otherwise. We have some amazing craftspeople (if this is fine homebuilding...these folks are f-f-f-ine.) And we're finding out that, yes, our marriage can survive a shower that you have to turn on with a pliers on a unfinished, unheated floor. In winter.
We're poor and all of our money is going into the house, with a chunk that came from the sale of our old condo. It helps that I really like power tools and maintaining systems. And that the spouse wanted to be an architect. (But my lifelong health issues are a drawback and we're figuring it out...it isn't all sweetness and light.)
Living out would be great if we could swing it. Or even half and half. But we're in. And we're staying. And I'd rather be in this old house here in a city neighborhood than anywhere else.
you know you can get great advise in here about construction !!! However when its comes to the reality of the family living thats another issue !! Its alot of work and inconvience temporay protection is a big item i use lots of fans and old downdraft units that i lay on the floor and direct them to the fans which i hang in the windows . How old are the kids ? how much extra time do you have each week? does your company ask you to work overtime ? and so on LOL
I'm 4 and half years into your life (1909 vintage). Move out if you have the money. I do not/did not have the money. I have, to date, new kitchen (I hired the cabinets built), all new e-, all new plumbing, new furnace (in new location), all new duct work ('cept a 15' run feeding a bath/bed room), new bath (in basement, below waste), 3 new bedrooms (two new new in basement) one remodel main floor, new deck (new outside door to deck) new windows in new rooms). I have 3 kids (16, 12, & 2) 1 wife (original) decorates will not nail, can't/won't paint. 16 is usually helpful ( I have to ask, but it is my house not his), 12 can carry trash/can't hold up 4x8 drywall, 2 can move toys, not out of the way mind you, but she can move them.
Take the marriage advice given. Plan, and then plan some more remember the GC spents the most time and never drives a nail - gets paid the most so it must be the most important job. If you are the DIYer you are the GC - go plan some more.
Dust will be your freind and companion like a shadow on a sunny day. Toxic issues can be reasonably delt with, masks/wet things down, keep the kids (and anyone who won't follow the rules) away.
much dust comes with the karma of a old house
In Colorado you have to hire an engineering lab to take a sample here, sample there and when they clear you (not just lead--asbestos and other stuff is in the plaster) THEN you take the State report to the City and get a permit. Imagine a stop work order happening in the middle of this! I grew up in a house built about the same year as yours. Galvanized pipes, no (NO) insulation of any kind, a huge coal furnace converted to gas (no fan--hot air rises), plaster over lath constantly falling out. It was and is a cool house though. I started on my own remodel in 1982. Still working on it between jobs. Plans have changed a million times. Kids are now gone, pets have died, and we don't need the room and privacy the addition was going to provide, plus the assessor has upped the taxes. If you don't sell it--move out. Do a realistic cost evaluation--without you doing any work. I've worked on many a house about the age of yours. You wouldn't believe what a found behind walls, what the floors were made of, the extra work, the extra money...... Figured out that a new house built to today's code but maybe Victorian style (check the plan books) was the way to go. In fact, the modular (not manufactured--i.e. trailer) is the way to go. I went to a factory in Iowa. All it takes is money! Tyr
Scooter's been pretty quiet of late.
I think you guys scared the beegeebees out of him.
Oh well, forewarned is forearmed."sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
Hey y'all,
I'm still here and have been enjoying your responses immensely. Some great advice here. I will let my wife read them soon.
A little more information for ya. The house is in a neighborhood that is an official historic district. It had vinyl installed on it before the neighborhood became an official historic district. We've spoken with the commssion and they would be happy for us to do just about anything to improve the houses curb appeal(meaning ditch the vinyl).
The house is really well built. Structurally speaking it is very sound. It is only about 1200 sq. feet and 2 bedrooms and 1 1/2 bath. There are only a few walls where the plaster is in bad shape. The two upstairs bedrooms have the original plaster on the walls and only a couple of small cracks to show for all their years of service. I think some of you old house owners would be impressed.
The systems are the parts that need work: knob and tube wiring with some newer Romex additions, galvanized and cast iron plumbing, what looks like the original ductwork wrapped in a thin layer of deteriorating insulation that probably has asbestos in it, although the furnace is newer.
I live on .19 acres in the city. Virtually no room for a trailer, and it would probably be in the way all the time.
My girls are 4 and 2 and are also good at moving toys around and finding new uses for my tools(nothing electric or sharp of course).
Keep the responses coming!