In the thread new porch dcking, Goldhiller mentioned the old method of using canvas sailclothe to finish a porch floor.
That got me thinking that there are lots of old porch deck methods not followed anymore, some with good reason, that we might dicuss.
I’ll follow up with another post to describe the old sailcloth method, as I know it.
Engineered-stone shower panels are waterproof, but proper installation relies on tight seams and silicone sealing.
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Replies
OK so maybe I should have put this in Construction tecniques.
New England was once a major hub in the sailing, trading, commercial world. Sailmakers and canvas were commonly found. For some homes, the first siding cover was sailclothe canvas, the Tyvek of yesteryear, for a couple of years until clapboards were milled out or money fopr siding could be spared.
Given that availability, and skills often learned aboard ship in the years a young man began adding to his skill level, it was not surprising that sailclothe would occasionally be used for roof coverings in certain places. I would not recommend it for today but this is how it is done, in my recollection, having built a couple and removed for replacement many more.
The canvas is cut and placed with ample extra for overlapp and seaming. It is ballasted with half rolled back. Then the applicator rolls out a heavy set coat of deck paint on teh boards of the deck. The canvas is stretched tight into the wet paint to stick to it. Edges are nailed down with 4d fine galvanized nails at about 1"oc at theedge or seam. Then a second coat of paint is applied to the top of the canvas. Teh drying of the paint tends to make the canvas stretch against the nails at the perimeter as it shrinks. A final top coat of paint compleets the job.
The process is not unlike the use of liquid biutumens or elastomeric roofing with polyester re-inforcing material as used in some of todays modern roofs.
The paint is the priomary waterproofing surface while the canvas re-inforces it.
As I have seen it, the process was usually used where a porch was covered with a flat roof that doubled as a balconey/upper deck. Th epitch was 1/4" to 12" or 1/2" to 12"
It requires maintainance in the form of yearly cleaning and re-painting, and care in removing snow. It seems toi accept minoir traffic and placement of lawn style furniture OK.
If I were installing such a roof for a customer who wanted to copy the old style, I would probablyuse ice and water shield today under it and then cover with the sailclothe.
Excellence is its own reward!
So what old style deck techniques have you all seen that differ from present?
There is the process of placing a narrow srip of tarpaper over the joists before laying down the decking....
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I didn't know that about canvas on the old homes up here. Pretty cool.
I like how the porches on Victorian-era houses often have brick piers as supports, not phugly sonotubes or 4x4's. And real lattice, not the Home Depot crap.
I like the proportions of railing heights on old houses. 36" may be safe, but looks too high. New railings that have a cross member at 27" to 30" as well as one at 36" are a good modern compromise. Same thing with closely spaced balusters; sometimes they look better spread out a little more than code allows. Not always though.
I like the solid rim joists often used on old porches. 4x8's, not (2) 2x's. The old wood they used, fir I guess, seems to have lasted a looong time. Also no joist hangers. Not that there's anything wrong with joist hangers, just interesting that toenailed joists can hold up outdoors for a hundred years.
Enjoying the break in the weather?
Mike
These two photos have examples of some of the elements you mention. Note the uppr right balcony in kaz ext. it uses a wall to durrond and I met safety concerns with an added rail. The wall top aligns with windiw sills so view is beneficial when seated. The old deck I replaced here ( I t was once sailclothe) had a 21" H railing is all.
Excellence is its own reward!
Nice looking work Piffin. What detail did you use for that balcony floor?
EPDM roof membrane
slip sheets of EPDM
PT sleepers
Fir decking.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
That house is gorgeous! Nice work.
I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Ahem...
no false modesty here, thanks!
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
just caught your sailcloth thread mighty beautiful home mid summer I finished a deck much like you describe sloped epdm 1" to 8" ripped sleepers in 16 feet topped off w/ 1 X 6 ipe posts rails & columns to match our 1900 victorian
when I learn the ropes of posting I'll get some photos on board
main point I am responding to ( besides my awe at the house ) is your mention of what your modern interpretation of the sailcloth method might be
speak of ice & water then cloth processes I seem to be caught in this thought process too many times w/ all the multi story old homes I end up doing
does anything stick to I & W how does one give it tooth?
the sailcloth process is on a parallel w/ one I've used from a co. either in Pitts. or Boston? that advertises in maybe both FHB & Old House Journal Resource Technologies or the like could find the name if you like anyway their product I have used ext plywood coat of 100% acrylic bed of acrylic fine weave fiberglass type fabric let into bed of acrylic and covered w/ acrylic again then another coat and then a coat every five yrs or so this for very light traffic they have others for heavier traffic nice color choices and w/ big nap roller can look pretty nice
Good question there about how to give "tooth" or mechanical bond to the bituthyene. I don't have the answer to it. I was speculationg that this would be a more waterproof solution IF the owner had heart set on an old style roof.
The "fibreglas - like" fabric youmention was probably the spun bond polyester.
Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting.
My home in MA, built in 1891, has a low-pitch roof that was once covered with sailcloth. Serves as my 'underlayment' to this day. I will be able to check it out more fully when I stop patching the existing rolled roofing piecemeal, and get a proper membrane on it.
Many victorian homes in this region have painted sailcloth on the exterior. I see it in Maine too. Seems most common under broad roof overhangs above the start of the wood siding. Often there are picture frame moldings around sailcloth panels, and applied decorations mixed in (sometimes made of plaster). Can be beautiful. Many of these houses fall into the "Italianate" style category. They did not have plywood, so if they wanted a frame and panel effect, this was clearly the way to go. Probably more of this hiding under vinyl and aluminum than we know. There was something in Old House Journal about restoring this stuff a few years back.
This other framed in panel sailclothe? Is it on flat roofs or on siding? I was confused until you mentioned the vinyl siding which clued me in.
Original "Linoleum" was sailclothe canvas tacked down to the board floor and painted with multiple coats of Linseed oil which lent its name to the product. A few coats of base, then decorative patterns, then a few more wear coats of linseed oil.
It must have taken a month to do one, considering the drying time..
Excellence is its own reward!
Just to clarify what I was trying to say;
My own roof actually has sailcloth as the lowest layer.
Many Victorian homes around NE have (or had) sailcloth as part of the siding, often framed with molding to create a decorative panel look. You would probably have to look closely to even notice. Does not look much like canvas with 30 layers of paint on it.
Linoleum was wonderful stuff. Amazing variety of patterns and I have seen floors in good shape after 40-50 years. I have heard it is back in production, but no longer a low end product.
Yep, I think they are calling it Marmoleum now, still made from Linseed. It is slightly resilient for comfort over slab on grade with radiant heat. I have heard that it can stain though. Anyone else know about that?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Mike,
I agree with you. The lower railing heights on older porches looks a lot better than todays 36" standard. Besides, what scientific wiz figured out that 36 inch railings are much safer than 34 or 32" railings? (Although many older houses have railings much lower) The code certainly doesn't take aesthetics or proportions into account, but that's what happens when the Insurance industry basically runs the country.
I did my porch over on my house this spring and I cut out the gingerbread for the skirt myself using a template I made and a pattern bit on my router table. (Because I also can't stand the cheap home depot lattice) I posted a few pics for ya.
As for old construction techniques on porches...here in New England you can't beat the look of the old tin roofs on the covered porches and houses. Also you see all these old porch columns that were made from Yellow Poplar, or Fir, still standing strong...many well over a hundred years old, and then you see the guy next door that used pressure treated 4x4's est. and his porch is falling apart! Also the level of detail can be amazing on some of the older houses. I love how the old time carpenters mitered the cornices on the rakeboards and carried them down along the soffits, all the way around the house.
PS (I haven't gotten around to picking out porch posts yet! So excuse the 4x's in the pics!)
I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Edited 8/24/2003 10:01:00 AM ET by Manroot
Next year I'll be rebuilding an old porch for a woman (the divorcee.) She has two old porches with fir T&G decking painted gray, but now rotting. What I noticed were the railings; they were built with a square centered in the railing section, and one horizontal 2x2 was lapped in the center of the square with a vertical 2x2. In addition, the square was further divided by 2xs that angled from the outer corners of the square to the center. So the center of the square was the intersection point for 6 2xs, and there is not a gap to be found. Of course, maybe that's due to the multitude of coats of paint...
Same design on the second story deck railing. She wants to replace them with something more economical, but I'm trying to convince her to let me reproduce them. Old details like that are quickly disappearing under a suffocating layer of plastic, which should be criminal.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
There are a lot of porch railings like that with geometric designs over in Bar Harbour. The shame of it is that most of them will not meet modern building codes with the 4" ball and all that.
But if you do it, plan and lay it out so all the squares wil be the same sixe and then you can buld them on a table/bench before installing them. Applying mass production gets you time saved and more consistant results. Cut all 40 or whatever of each size and shape piece before you start..
Excellence is its own reward!