I just found a stash of picture files and I’ll post a few that deal with our on-site panelization system. Pay no attention to the dates showing on any of the photos because I’m one of those technically challenged guys that didn’t know the date was being stamped and it was the wrong date to boot!
These first few pics are coming out of a n April 2006 file.
This first pic shows Frank and Steve with their table set up out by the road. That was a third generation table that we were setting up and knocking down and moving it to the next job.
The table consisted of four leftover TJI joist. I think the outside were 12′ and there are 2 more inside that were 10″ tjis. The end are rim board. There are two nails holding the ends together. There are joist hangers holding the interior joist together. The top osb plywood is laid quickly and just tacked. It might be a half hour setup at most including the setting of the blocks etc. for one guy…Franks in his usual position with the phone in his ear.
It’s obvious that they’ve already completed at least one wall because the housewrap is laying in a position that indicates a wall has already been built and moved. Steves assembling the headers for the next wall. The plates have already been laid out.
That was a very muddy jobsite. We always immediately laid full sheets of plywood or ramps all the way around and later picked them up and used them for sheathing somewhere.
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
Replies
This is the right side of the house that they have panelized. Every wall was built on that table. None of the walls are particularly difficult and it went fast.
One of the benefits of onsite panelization is that the jobsite stays impeccably clean. All the "scrap" gets tossed into a bin, or under the table. The lumber piles can be kept clear from the actual structure, which makes working around it much easier and safer.
edit: the pic says left side, but it really is the right side LOL!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/15/2008 11:58 am by Jim_Allen
This pic shows some of the components strewn around the countryside. The closest item is the porch. It has the overhang installed on both sides. The nearest side will bump up against the garage and the fascia is cut back to accept the incoming soffit from the garage overhang. The dormer is a decorative "dummy" dormer. Frank works well with a simple calculator and he decided to add the ridge and the first few rafters. It would be easy to also add the valley boards and jacks, but it's just as easy to do it up on the roof too. The Gable that is lying on it's face in the rear sits on the right side of the house and extends down and terminates onto the garage roof. I can see that he's got the backing stopped where the main house ends and the rest of the gable framing is stepped up to allow for the garage trusses to be set. The gable overhang is on too, but it's layered back to allow for custom fitting of the final parts landing over the garage roof. We also could easily finish the entire overhang but we just as easily could do it from the skytrak box. When we try to finish the entire thing, it works perfect about 75% of the time. Working out of the box, we hit the 100% number. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm watching! keep posting!
Forrest -eatin' my cawnbraid
I found quite a few interesting pics and I'll be dragging them out and posting them. I got lots of time before the next primary, so I can stay out of the Tavern. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the house from the left side. The gable laying in the picture will eventually be set on the left side of the house. It shows the overhang layered back waiting to be finished. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Blue. I love it. Keep 'em coming.
Since you love it, I'll continue ;).Some of the benefits (efficiencies) of on-site panelization are subtle. This picture shows the stairs leading to the second floor completed before the outside wall are completed. That doesn't seem significant but it is for several reasons. We typically split our four man crew into two teams: one team on the table building the outside walls and one team inside building the partitions and decks. This approach creates its own efficiencies. The deck and partition guys usually have full access for the machine to serve them lumber. They don't have to snake the studs and plate stock through holes in the outside wall. Since theres no sheathing work being done on the deck, it stays clean and is much safer. Also, the rhythm allows the stair builder to get a jump on that process. Typically, the stair builder frames the two partitions that the stairs nail to, then starts the stairs while the other guy builds all the other partitions. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This pic shows the openess of the deck and the remaining length of outside wall that is coming. Notice how we've cut back the top plate to get the required 4' minimum lap. That's Frank holding the laminated plans. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Oops, heres the pic for that last post. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres the wall coming in to fill in that hole. Notice Steve is on the deck to receive it. He's "greasing" the landing zone with construction adhesive. Franks running the crane and I'm goofing off with the camera. The grease makes it very easy to slide the wall in and out, and back and forth to it's exact position. It also seals out drafts is there is any variance in the wall or deck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows that same wall coming in. I'm on the deck snapping the pic. The table is off to the side of the crane. You can see how close we set it up. Often, the crane bed would become a secondary storage space for materials. We'd also store supplies that we wanted to keep dry in the cab or under the bed of the crane. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Incidently, it won't hurt my feelings if someone resizes these pics downward. I used to use photshop 2.0 for my editing but it doesn't seem to work well with xp. If the pics were smaller, it would be nice if they were plastered here without links but I wouldn't want to do that to the dialuppers unless they were small enough. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
http://www.irfanview.com
even you can master it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks. I've already downloaded it on my other computer and failed to master it. Maybe it will work smoother with xp and this computer...but I have my doubts. It's not about the program. It's about me. I only get about 1/3 of all programs loaded to work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres' Steve putting the final nails into the wall. The wall easily is moved to the snapped line and he pins it at the corners and middle, then nails it to the deck in every bay. You can see that the wall and deck meet nicely. When we build the walls, we make sure the top plates are straight. We square them and make sure the entire wall is a true rectangle. If the deck is not meeting the wall correctly, we drive the deck up tight to the wall and shim under each joist with steel shims. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows Frank tying the final lapped plates. The crane has everything safely "braced". This is another subtle time savings. We don't waste as much time putting temp braces on things as we used to. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Franks putting the finishing touches on the paper. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Okay...that's all for now folks....gotta give my wife some time. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres an overview of the table area and work area. It looks like the next wall to be built is going to be one of the garage walls becuse the bottom plate is green wood. Its probably quitting time and we've worked there all day. I keep all the usable "scrap" on the horses and I also restock usable lengths back to their original piles. I think the volume of the scrap speaks for itself. It's a very efficient way to build walls.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This picture shows the work station while we are working. Again, notice the amount of scrap that I'm storing on the horses. That little 12 x 12 piece of osb will become a filler on a header. There are times when the volume on the horses get bigger, but like the tide, there is an ebb and flow.The tooling for wall framing is minimal: gun, stapler, saw, hand staplers, a box of staples and nails and of course, my manly framing square hanging in the horses. The spray wax is for sraying the baseplate of the saw. I also spray the blade of the saw. You'd be surprised how it makes the saw feel like it's been sharpened. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Wake up Tim! This shows the rear gable, with the attached chimney getting framed. I start by snapping the roof outline on the table. I think it's a 12/12 so the layout is very simple. I dont' really calculate the rafter length. Instead I just use simple math to create a 45 degree line starting at the top of the "heel" (HAP). I don't actually cut a rafter either. I just cut the studs close to the line. I don't need them exact...just close. I do cut the end on exactly to the height of the heel. I'll need this one to be exact because it becomes the point I measure off of later when I snap my layout line for the rake frieze. If you look closely, you can see that I've just pulled the layout 16" from the end and marked the centers with a black marker. I'll leave these studs flopping around till I get the sheathing laid and cut. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a shot of the work station as we get farther into the job. Enough of the workstation and material efficencies though...heres a shot of a bay window wall being built. This is the same house and the garage is almost done. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
These shots shows the advanced stage that the garage is at. I'm showing these pics to highlight the change in rhythm that panelization allowed. This helped us to maximize our small crew and allow everyone to do what they liked to do best, in the most comfortable way. Sheathing the roof in this manner is very easy and very fast. The guys can easily walk onto the deck to get their stored studs and use them for kickers...or just rest their legs for a minute. Of course, as we exit this roof, all those studs will be stripped and used in the partition framing in the house.Edit: Marty, I'll call you later to figure out irfanview. It's too early here to talk on the phone because I'd wake people up that are still sleeping. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/16/2008 9:53 am by Jim_Allen
These two pics show the front of the house. It's going to get a wrap around porch and we've concentrated our efforts on getting the front of the house done so the porch can get started while the guys work on the back of the house. You'll see what I mean in the next pics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the back of the house and it's wide open. Remember, the bay window wall is on the table ready to set. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Oops, heres the pics Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's time to move the bay wall into place. The crane might struggle with the far reach and we decided to use the machine which is a sure thing. There's no sense is risking anything when there are sensible choices.Franks driving and Steve sets it. I might have helped, but usually it's not that difficult for those two to set the walls. Quite often, if I'm on the table, I just start the new wall rather than helping them. If I have my camera, I'm more likely to "help". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm tired of talking to myself...breakfast time. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Enjoy your grub, but please continue.
The omelette was good....not great. This pic shows the bay from the outside after setting it. It gives a better perspective of how/why we put the bay overhang and the adjoining overhang on. The second pic shows the assembly after the adjoining walls were set. I'm jumping ahead a bit though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Wow, this is neat! I'm NO framer - I've built a couple sheds. But this thread really intrigues me.Having grown up on the farm, I was always used to moving most everything around using machinery. Vineyard equipment is on a smaller scale than cash crop farming, but one routinely has to push, pull, lift and otherwise manipulate implements and materials that a gang of men could hardly budge.In contrast, construction has a lot of carrying of things.If I'd never seen a house framed, and was trying to figure out how I would do it, I'd immediately be thinking of cranes and forklifts. This is so cool.
It does make sense Biff but the realities are that most framers don't have acess to all the equipment shown. In retrospect though, it's obvious to me that I should have invested far more in heavy equipment early in my career. For instance, in some of those pics, you see a 99 ram. I should have spent that 40k on a nicer crane and drove a old VW to work. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres some more for ya Biff! Okay...here comes the "secret". I swear to you, I had a framing contractor tell me "I wish I knew how to figure out how to cut the gable overhang like you do. It would make is so much easier raising the walls." It's not that big of a secret but don't tell him. If I were him, I'd have stood by the curb waiting for me to do this...but I'm not him. Anyways, remember the hip boxes that were already nailed to the wall on the garage? We have to fit the gable overhangs over them now. Hmmmm? How we gonna figure that? Hmmmm? If you noticed in another recent thread, I mentioned that our most critical data line on the house is our fascia line. Since we know the fascia line, it's a simple matter to know where the framing of the roof meets the gable wall sheathing....right? Lets do the math together. Lets say that on this house, the height of he fascia is exactly even with the top plate (that actually happens sometimes although it's rare). The calculation for this hip overhang would be: it's a 12/12 pitch. So...if the brick rack is 4 1/4" and the overhang project 12" then the total rise would be .....tadaaaaaaaa 16 1/4"! So, I snap a line at 16 1/4" and nail a couple of mock 12/12 pitch rafters to the line. I then lay the first scrap of osb which would represent the actual roof sheathing. I then lay the second scrap of osb to represent the airspace that we need to lay shingles and provide air space to dry out the trim when it rains. In theory, it would be too tight because we want at least 1/2" above the aphalt shingles but in reality, for some reason, this 1/2" space will become almost double that, which will be perfect. Don't ask me why that happens...I don't know the answer....actually I do but it's much too complicated....well...actually I don't know! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This pic shows the final piece of the back wall; the adjoining fireplace wall coming in. There is a close up (100_3510) of the glue bead laid. This will "float" the wall and one man can easily slide it a couple inches as it hydroplanes on the surface. Its one of those useful ideas that I wish I had known about in my early years.3511 shows Steve pulling the wall in tight. The glue allows him to easily slam it home by giving it a simple tug. 3512 shows a close up of the small overhang which is prepped and ready to receive the gable rake assembly. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Should I just continue posting the pics in these large sizes? I'm not getting any resistance either way and if it doesn't matter, I'll just keep going. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have lightning fast cable, so I vote for 'just do it.'
The results are in: 1 AYE, 0 Nays. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
the size is ok for me
3828 shows the first section of the porch arriving.
3829 shows the section as it's settled into it's final position. At this point, it's probably just tacked. Steve has slid it out to it's exact spot (it's projecting beyond the far edge of the house exactly 8' 1/4". Gravity and the crane is situated to allow him to fasten it to the house with no help and no particular panic or effort. 3530 shows him laying the level on it. One of us will walk over there and install a temporary brace/post underneath. He'll attempt to get the crane to get it close to level, but we'll get the final fractions of an inch by adjusting our posts. The easiest way I do this is slide two studs together until they are tight from the foundation to the porch. He tells me to add whatever his level is telling him. We'll fine tune it later anyways with the permanent posts. 3534 shows that first panel in it's temporary installed state. The second section is coming in. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This is a better pic of the second section coming in. (3537)3536 shows the boom truck closer up. Frank looks like hes having fun. Frank and Steve later cleaned up the truck and repainted it all white. There is a small leak in one of the cylinders that causes the nastiness on the turret but it's easier to add 5 or 10 gallons of oil each year than to tear it apart and fix it. 3538 shows a good shot of the first section set. Notice that we've added the first piece of the frieze. You can see the nearest brace as it has been lapped and nailed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hello Jim.
Read you blog on panelized framing. I too am a framing contractor. Was just curious how much time it took your crew of 4 to frame up that house using your system.
Actually, there are two separate houses shown. I'll ask Frank: he'll know and I'll post the information. I can tell you that generally speaking the on-site panelization system saves some time, but it won't save as much as the manufacturers claim. When you start to analyze it, there are some steps saved, some steps added and some steps neutral. Ive already stated that the outside walls in the first few pics were framed by two guys in one day. That's sixteen hours total. In the other panelization thread, a link was shown that stated that there were 66 hours saved by using a panelized system, according to a side by side test. Their observations and my experience don't add up. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Frank can't remember how many hours. He clearly remembered that he framed all the walls in the first house in one 8 hr day, two guys: The walls sat in a pile in the field for a couple weeks. The trusses showed up when the foundation was finished and he built the gables and porch then. He's guessing about 150 total on that house but he can't remember. He thought I was present and helped him set the outside walls but I don't remember being there for any of it. I think he and Steve built most of that house himself and I just wandered in occasionally and took a few pics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I too am a firm believer in prefab framing. Especially in a multi unit complex or an entire street of single family. There is no shame in using heavy equipment to get a job done in half the time as conventional methods.
I have on more than one occasion framed entire roofs on the ground, sheathing and all, and then craned it two floors up onto the walls. Unfortunately I don't have pics of all the jobs I've done like that but do have some.
On this particular job my crew of four, myself included, framed this house in seven days.
That is amazing how you 'raised that lid'. How much time do you figure it would have taken if you built it conventionally.
On day one of framing that roof, two of the four guys on my crew were finishing the main floor wall framing, while myself and another stood up the trusses on the vacant lot next door. By mid morning the next day the other two crew members joined us and we had it ready to crane by the end of our regular 8hr work day. All the required web bracing and strapping was complete. The sky light tunnel was framed in. The only thing we did not have time to finish was the three small gable and valleys' on the one side of the roof. It took two of my guys about 4hrs to complete those after we set the roof.
The next morning the crane arrived at 8 o'clock and by 9:30 we were fastening the roof to the walls and framing the three gables. By days end I was thinking about taking one of the guys to the next job and leaving two behind for a day to lick up the final little odds and ends.
To frame that roof conventionally I'm estimating it would have taken twice the time with the entire crew working on it.
Edited 3/23/2008 2:35 pm ET by CanadianFramer
Thanks for the info. I learned my trade in Ottawa and did a lot of framing then. Where are you located?
I'm in the North Okanogan area of B.C. Salmon Arm.
Heading out to Vancouver and the Island this summer. Drove through the Okanogan when I was a teenager working in Grande Prairie many moons ago.
My canadian friend,
I have done a lot of prefab work, and some stuff pretty outlandish, but I would never have the stones to prefab and lift that roof. My hats off to you- if you are ever in connecticut- stop and I'll buy you lunch and a beer. Thanks
Greg in Connecticut
Hi Greg.
Thanks for the comment and the offer. I do like food and beer, almost as much as I like framing.
Framing and lifting a roof in that manner is indeed a very nerve racking undertaking. So many things can go sideways on you. One can imagine the property damage and worst of all the human injury damage that could occur If the worst case scenario did happen. Not to mention your reputation destroyed.
I have been framing for some 23 yrs now, and over the course of those years have from time to time the opportunity to work with some very seasoned and knowledgeable heavy construction carpenters. I've worked on many large scale projects where heavy equipment is employed all the time to help get the job done and keep on schedule.
Over time and through experience at utilizing such methods, you learn what can and can not be done. Although I,m one of those people that believe anything is possible.
Just get a bigger crane!
"I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE ATTEMPT THIS WITHOUT PRIOR EXPERIENCE. ALWAYS ALWAYS SAFETY FIRST!"
There are to many things that must be considered to mention here, like knowing EXACTLY what the crane you are using can do and how to rig up for the lift. Just to mention two very important ones.
I have had a slightly unpleasant experience on one roof lift we did, prior to the one I posted the pictures of. Nothing too serious. The roof section that we were attempting to lift was to heavy for the 80 ton crane we were using ( the largest roadable crane in our area, same one as in the pictures ). The initial lift was fine it was when the crane was booming out to the building that the problem arose. We dealt with the situation and eventually got the job done. That is another story if anyone is interested. Only have 3 pics of that job. Had to put the camera down to help the guys out.
I take it that you are a fellow framing carpenter or builder. I love talking shop and sharing ideas with fellow carpenters.
Take care and work safe. TTYL
Ryan. British Columbia, Canada
Edited 3/23/2008 2:56 pm ET by CanadianFramer
You will have to buy Canadian Framer two beer, he is used to Molson and Labatt!
What a crane job.
Have a good day
Cliffy
We did something similar about five years ago, on a much smaller scale.
When faced with the prospect of setting 10/12 trusses on top of a 9' wall on a 4' concrete stem wall, we decided to try something new. We framed the walls on top of the stem walls (with 2x4 braces under the top plates to the concrete slab every 6' or so) then set the trusses on top of the "floor" we created with the walls.
The trusses were sheathed and papered while the assembly was low, requiring a 6' step ladder to get from grade to the fascia. I think we did save a good bit of time, and no doubt was it safer.
View Image
The pics are scans from a disposable camera, so they're not that good.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We just did the same thing, and are very happy we did. We are building a ~20x20 carport to go with a new home. The roof is 10:12 and incorporates two timber trusses that carry the ridge, along with another pair of 6x12s. The foundation consists of three piers and a small building footprint in one corner. We started snapping layout and dryfitting the beams on the concrete, and realized that it would be easy to just keep going, bolt the trusses together, and frame the roof right there on the ground. We did that, then had a small truck crane come in and lift it. It was a lot easier than getting all of that wood up in the air using our backs. I have a couple of photos somewhere, I'll look for them.
Nice job. Were you the mastermind behind that operation?
From what I understand you used the walls as your deck for building the roof upon. Then the crane lifted the roof, you stood and braced the walls and then set the roof on the walls. is this correct?
I was half the brains of the operation. The other half was the guy who is now my equal partner in the company we started.As I said the garage had concrete stem walls ~4' above grade, 8' or 9' frame walls, and a steeply pitched truss roof on top with a bonus room above. The footprint was 24' wide and either 24' or 28' deep.We framed the side walls first (the walls that the trusses sat on). They had no windows or doors so were quite easy to frame. I think we did them on the slab butted up to the rear wall of the foundation and sticking out ~8" in the front where the opening for the overhead door was.Then we framed the front and rear walls (the gable ends) in standard platform framing position. Since the bottom plates rested on the sill plates and the sill plates were ~4' above the slab, we cut 2x4 scraps and blocked up the top plates of these two walls both to allow framing, but more importantly, to support us as we walked all over them later.We then tacked a 2x4 plate with the truss layout on to the top of the walls that were blocked up. Basically, this just became our future top plate for the eaves walls.Trusses were installed on this "top plate" as normal. Stick frame dog house dormers and sheathing and paper were installed.Then after lunch we had the crane show up, pick up the roof system and move it over to a flat spot. Then pick up the two walls that were blocked up and brace them plumb. Pick up the two walls that were on the slab and install them in place. Pick the roof back up, and set it on top of the walls.Patch a few pieces of sheathing in from the lift and go home. Oh, we also installed the T&G floor sheathing on the bottom chords of the trusses for the bonus room. That was nice because we didn't have to lift the sheathing up the extra 9' and it kept the trusses very rigid during the two lifts.I would do it again if the site conditions permitted. That seems to be the problem we've run up against. I would love to pre-build the roof for a 2nd floor addition but we need a reasonably flat area that is big enough and allows crane access. I'm sure sometime the chance will come up again and we will likely jump at it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Nice pics Jon.I'm not quite understanding the setup though. I don't understand what the "braces to the top plate" mean. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's the spirit CanadienFramer! Nice pics.Carry on...lets see the disaster pics if you don't mind. I had a sizeable girder system collapse when the crane operator bounced it but that happened in the 80's before digitals cameras. I don't have any pics. Luckily, the assembly was partially over the walls and we could instantly lower it and take the weight off. We then inched it into place with the crane assisting. The repair was surprisingly simply even though the bottom chords (this was a two or three ply girder) cracked completely in two pieces. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey Jim. How's it going?
I only have three measly pics of the "disaster" and none of them show any of the struggle we had. As I mentioned I put the camera down to assist in correcting the problem.
We were framing up some typical duplexes. So what we did was frame one of them up to truss and then framed the other identical one across the street up to floor. We then framed the roof for the first one on the floor of the second and attempted to crane it over in two halves.
All was going well until the crane operator ( my now good buddy Greg ) asked me to put down the camera and keep an eye on the out riggers that were on the opposing side of the load, as he apparently had some concerns.
We got the roof section to within about, not a word of a lie, six inches of placing it and one of the out riggers started to lift. He had to pull the load back immediately to avoid total disaster.
Now, here in lyed our dilemma. The only solution to the problem was to move the crane closer to the building. As we had carefully measured the crane position to be exactly in the middle of the two buildings, setting it back on the floor was not an option. We had to some how try to rest it kitty corner on the intended building while the crane repositioned. after about an hour or so of trying various approaches, and cutting out sections of the tops of the walls to accommodate the truss tails and facia board, we managed to set it down. The crane moved about 3 feet over and completed the job.
the second section flew a little more smoothly even though it was heavier, it was also closer to the recipient building by several feet.
I didn't pick the camera up again as I was to busy helping out the guys and orchestrating the lift. That's the short of it and now here are the only three pics that I have.
Enjoy.
Ryan.
PS. I estimated The fist section to be about 13,000 lbs, it was actualy 18,000. The second section was over 20,000.
Would love to see pictures of the gable end walls & trusses going on.
I will dig out some more pics asap. I've been working longer days than usual and neglecting my posting duties here....sorry! I'm just glad that Jon and CandadienFramer posted those excellent pics to wake this thread up! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
For what its worth, I'm really enjoying this thread.
Thanks
dug
It is important to know that Dug, thanks. With a little encouragement, we all dig harder to find interesting stuff to post. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Here's a couple of pics of the roof we just flew. It's a fairly... unusual... carport. We're a bit further along with it now, the "building" under it is framed and all the temp X bracing is off. Today we put on about half of the metal roof.
Nice works David.Lets talk about motivation and risk vs reward here a bit. Your's looks fairly easy to stage. You seem to have two heavy beams connected by a stout gable beam on each end. That is fairly straight forward to frame on the ground. I don't see much risk but I also don't see any great reward. The crane adds some cost and that's why I'm asking about your motivation. One huge factor is the fun of doing it your way....which in some ways is priceless. I have analyzed many roof systems for my own panelization efforts and I've never sheathed any of them on the ground in any substantial way. Every time I analyze it, the setting up of the plates in a straight and true manner eats up any potential time savings that I think I might gain by sheathing it on the ground. One reason that we don't need to sheath on the ground is because we do all our cutting up on the roof in place. Our guys don't care if they are 3' up or 300' feet up. Its all the same to them. They get their ply stocked up on the roof too (we crane it or shoot it up with the skytrak), so that's not a factor. So then, when I think about the time setting up the plates, I add the hooking and craning and setting and tweaking and all of a sudden I'm not interested in prebuilding and presheathing the roofs anymore. I do build the hipsets though. I hope Jon and CanadienFramer will weigh in and lets debate this idea. Prove me wrong... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, it was possibly a wash financially but in terms of safety and wear-and-tear on the guys it's a definite win. It also let me have 1 guy do a lot of it, with a second man part of the time. Labor is scarce. The rented forklift is long gone. There are (11) 4x and 6x beams in that roof and the crane man figured it at 4000 lbs. The whole thing rests on 3 logs and a rectangular shed. We just laid the beams down on the piers and stemwall and stacked the whole thing at waist height. I know it only went up 8 feet but it is just hugely easier to handle all that weight down low. If it was made of manufactured trusses and a bunch of 2x4 then I would not even have thought about it. The way we did it, it was moved twice and was on the hook for less than 30 minutes total.
David,What did the crane cost you for that quick lift?We would probably utilize cranes more but we haven't been able to find a crane that costs less than $450. If we could get a crane to swing by for 60 minutes or less and write a check for $150-200, our strategy would likely change.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, it cost $336, twice. I had to pay a two hour minimum each time. I could have set a solar panel on the house in the same timeframe but the plumber hasn't gotten it here. WHen I undertook this I was planning on using a different guy, who would be more like $200 per trip, but he suddenly retired. I would do it the same way again because of the difficulty and danger of assembling those beams up on scaffolding. We're not spring chickens and there aren't a lot of us either.
Hey Jim. CanadianFramer weighing in here.
I agree that it is not always the most productive way to put a cap on a building. It all depends on the circumstances of the task at hand. And they always vary from job to job.
The skill of the crew members is certainly one. Does a person have to over see their every move and work as one unit. or can the crew split off and multi task. For me I mainly take on larger projects. Town houses, condos', blocks of duplexes and the like. In the last couple of years I have usually maintained a crew of 12 to 18 guys of varying skill levels. This affords me to split off into specialized teams. While foundations are going in, walls are being built, floor joist are being precut, stairs are being prefabed as complete units, etc., etc.. Anything I can wrap my head and calculator around to turn into a prefabed component I do. And if the site conditions permit, while floors and wall panels are being erected, roofs are being built on the ground or ideally on the floor of the sister building. Preferably next door or directly across the street.
Jim I got to get some sleep now. Lets pick this up next time. Could be a heavy discussion.
"ideally on the floor of the sister building"That would be the easiest way to stage the prefab process but it still wouldn't work for our approach. My biggest opposition is the time spent squaring the plate assembly and I'd be very leery about the roof edges fitting our completed overhangs. In theory, it would all fit perfectly, but reality often varies considerably from theory. I do understand your desire to split the guys into specialized groups though. That is one of the best features of prefabbing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,Throwing me in the same group with Canadian Framer is no fair to him. I have little more than a cursory knowledge of prefabrication.We almost prefabbed a 40' long 10/12 pitch hipset at the end of 2007 but decided against it. We did not have a crane available to move it, just a 42' 6k (or was it 8k) telehandler. I'm glad we didn't prefab it because I think we may have gotten in to trouble.What do you see as the big benefit of prefabbing hipsets?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That telehandler would have easily handled that 40' hipset. Your biggest challenge would have been operating room. If you didn't have space to come in square to the wall, it would require that the hipset be placed on the wall from a diffent angle, then unhooked and re hooked after the machine was re positioned. Also, the machine works best if it is equipped with an operable jib (boom) attachment, giving it the additional 12' reach. When you take everything into consideration, it's very easy to assemble the hipsets while they are lying flat on the ground. That same efficency can be achieved by laying the hipset on the plates and shooting the jacks up with the machine, then tilting the assembly into it's final position. I've seen a lot of guys complete the entire hipset, including the hip and jacks. I gave that idea a shot once or twice but decided that it wasn't cost effective. Instead, we just installed all the commons and piled the jacks and hip up in the "attic" and sent it up. The guys could quickly assemble the final pieces of the corner using the already completed overhang as their guide. It just resulted in a more precise finish. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres some more for you Dug.This sequence shows the sheathing done. I thought I had some showing the sheathing process but I don't. The first pic shows the clearest shot of the sheathing. After I cut it, I line up the studs using the lines on the OSB. I think I mentioned that the layout was 16" but it is probably 24" on this gable. I carefully (I actually scribe and follow a line) cut the sheathing to size. I put the factory edge down and line up the bottom. This squares the assembly up. I continue with this process all the way up. I've built them over 20" high this way. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
20" high? That is almost 2' :-)
That's tall if you are an amoeba! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You asked for this...get ready! I told you this segmenting of the gable wasn't too bright! As I papered it in preparation for the overhangs, I kind of felt foolish. It looks like a mess. In the end it worked okay...but it just looks stupid. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In earlier pics, I showed the front of the house, which looks rather stark. Now it's time to add the wrap around porch. 3519 shows the porch skeleton. I found a resized version and am posting that too called "porch skeleton". 3520 shows the porch underside. We are using a rough sawn plywood on it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,This is back in Michigan?
Barry E-Remodeler
Yes, all of this takes place back in MI. The file folder says May 2005. I think the earlier pics in this thread were from March or april. As you can see, it's mud season...something I always hated with a passion. One of the huge benefits of on site panelization was minimizing the effects of mud. I no longer had to trudge through any of it. I could completely keep myself out of it every day by setting up plywood work areas. The guys on the deck rarely stepped off. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Know what you mean. With all of the snow melt, it's mud season with a vengeance here in Iowa.Where's the truck mounted crane?Picture size is fine for me
Barry E-Remodeler
Heres a shot of the boom truck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a shot of the steel truck delivering our basement stanchions. I worked in a steel supply show from age 18 till age 21. I used to deliver steel beams and stanchions from a semi like that. I remember pulling out of the yard in the morning with beams piled up 3' high and covering the width of the bed. It's amazing how things have changed. They put me in that semi and I had never driven one before and handed me a stack of delivery tickets. I think I was 20 years old but I had a "chauffer's license" which cost five dollars more!http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=C3AD9EB2-71F7-4D6D-88DB-87708C13A0F7&frames=no Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/16/2008 1:02 pm by Jim_Allen
You own that boom truck?
Yes, but we are selling it on Craigslist right now. I've got it advertised for $7000 which is a steal for a working piece of equipment. I'm in Texas and we just can't justify shipping it here..mainly because our main source of income is not going to be framing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I wish that was closer to me. I just paid 10% of that amount to have one onsite for 4 hours.
I know what you mead David. Frank will probably sell it in the next few days. He's back in MI for a wedding.Edit: Oops...I didn't realize that your message was old. I might have already replied LOL. I got confused because I was back there trying to figure out where I left off on that house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/25/2008 7:39 pm by Jim_Allen
I mentioned earlier that one of the benefits of panelization is reduced lumber usage. Heres a picture of the lumber returned from this job. Don't count the bunk of green wood. That was a change order but everything else was shipped by the estimator at the lumber company based on their takeoffs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
ya forgot something?
Edited 3/16/2008 12:54 pm by BarryE
Yes I did: thanks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hello Barry....I'm adding a few...This shows a different gable being panelized. It shows how I build the gables and align them with the sheathing instead of a top plate or rafter. On many of these gables, we'll be adding a rafter on the inside of the wall which stablizes these studs and also firestops (draftstops) the wall. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Still watching. like the gable wall trickgets the wheels turning
Barry E-Remodeler
Here comes some more Barry.I'm going to show a small series on a "bonus room". These bonus rooms are often built over the garage and include trusses with a floor system built into them. We typically try to get the garage standing first, before the main house, so we can store windows in it. Additionally, if we can time everything right, we will be able to stand comfortably on the second floor deck and start the truss setting from there. This saves an incredible amount of time because it eliminates the use of ladders to "get up there". The lacers for the truss setting are easily stacked and grabbed off the deck, as well as any blocking or tools (nails, guns, levels, etc). The other advantage is that the sheathing of the garage is also incredibly easy. All the osb is stored on the deck as well as the needed kickers. This first pic show the garage in its semi finished state. The garage is standing and we've set all the trusses including the front gable. The front gable is missing the framing of the actual 4" wall. We've got that framed and it's laying loose somewhere else. I'll explain later.I'm still trying to locate some pics of the finished garage but I haven't been able to find them.
Edited 3/29/2008 9:54 am by Jim_Allen
This particular house required us to hang the second floor I Joist off of a 4 ply girder. This is the first element standing on the second floor. Pic 18 shows Ben after he's set the girder. Pic 19 shows the remainder of the bonus room trusses getting moved to the fabrication area. I'll need to cut the tails and also grab one of those trusses for the front gable. My goal will be to get the front gable done before any flooring is laid. That means that I'm way ahead of the boys and I'll have some goof off time. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
Do you have any close ups or closer ups :-) of the gable end overhang detail? I really like the look of that a lot and wouldn't mind copying it :-)
Yes I do. I am going to go into detail of how and why about this gable but I'll post the largest size picture of any pic that I've already posted. Just list the ones you want and I'll go find them.edit. If you want, I'll post the big sizes of all of them but it will take quite a bit more time and I'd rather only do the ones that truly interest you. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/29/2008 4:06 pm by Jim_Allen
Great thread Jim. The pookie under the plate is great, no more BFH! Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
One word of warning Holly...don't try to slide the walls too far. They run out of hydro action and the glue actually grabs LOL! Actually, it'll slide the wall a long way. I usually inch the last few centimeters with a pinch bar anyways. I can jam it under there and walk a wall several inches with each swing of the bar...even on dry decks. I haven't used a sledge hammer to move many walls in the last few decades. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the trusses being swung in. We send them in two at a time. I've tried other configurations but have never beaten this system. Study the big pic closely. Notice the layout sticks hanging out on the trusses that are standing. This is the key to fast truss setting with two guys. The lacer is hanging out there 24". The incoming trusses will be immediately nailed into that lacer and unhooked. Basically, the crane can drop the trusses and unhook within a fifteen seconds. That includes about five seconds of shifting the truss back and forth to it's exact location (endwise) and five seconds to shoot a nail into that lacer to hold the first truss. While the shooter is nailing, the crane guy is self unhooking. Before the next truss is moved out to it's next layout position, the lacer man will shoot his next "hangover" lacer out there 48". That will be enough to catch the second truss that still needs to be positioned and then be ready for the next batch of incoming trusses. Using that system, the only guy that might get bored a bit is the guy nearest the crane. But...he's probably doing lots of other things. When I'm this guy, I always have the entire overhang nailed up tight, starter (catcher) nails installed to mark and catch the sheathing and quite possibly some or all of the backing or simpson hanger installed.edit: Dialuppers...these are the same pic. Don't open the big one.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/30/2008 8:47 pm by Jim_Allen
Heres a pic (they are the same pic) of the way I layout my lacers. I use standard studs for lacers. I rack them and lay them out gang style. I use a big black marker and mark centers. In my layout system, a big black mark is always a center mark. We will never waste any of these lacers. They normally will get chewed up in the roof framing and often they are stripped off that garage used as kickers while we are sheathing the roof. Remember, we always put at least one pair "L style" for every bottom sheet. We also put one stud on every sheet for these steep pitches. So...we need a lot of studs up there for staging. We later strip the lacers/kickers and often use them in the interior partitions. No one cares that they have a few black stripes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hello Holly! This shows the trusses set on the bonus room. Everything is there except the gable. Notice the hip boxes have already been installed on the front garage wall. I don't have pictures of that wall sequence but I'll be willing to bet that we installed the side overhangs in full and I completed the hip boxes off the skybox. Those returns are very easy to do in that sequence....remember the carpenter's rules: work from the hard spot out toward the easy. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Calling all Canucks! This shot shows the start of the gable. On this one, I've decided to frame the wall independent of the supplied gable. I'm inserting the 3/4 plywood spacers to mimic the real world conditions that the wall later will meet. I'm going to frame the inside and set it later. There are two benefits. We will be able to run the plywood out and nail into the gable framing. The 4" wall will then sit on top of the plywood like any "normal" outside wall will. This arrangement will also allow us to leave the end gable wide open for staging materials. After I did it this way, I decided that I didn't gain any great benefits....lessons learned. I do like making the job easy for laying the plywood but there are five other ways that might make it just as easy. If I had to do it again...I'd probably rethink this technique. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'z back JSan! This shows the finished framing of the bonus room outside wall. If I was to do this again, I'd probably just nail everything tight to the truss. Instead I pulled it out as you can see in the pic that shows the "insert" sheathed. You might notice that I don't have my favorite fire bucket. They were in short supply that winter and the boys had the only one we could find. I was forced to build a fire on the dirt like a peasant! Blah! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm still watching and it's looking good.
Seen your latest posts. I have a couple of questions.
Firstly, what the canuck is that white stuff on the ground?
What is the capacity and reach of your boom truck?
And for the third of my two questions, could you ,when get a chance, draw me a cross section of your wall, overhang / soffit detail, and truss tail. Particularly where you build the overhang to accommodate for brick.
I can see that you build your overhang on the wall, knee brace it square to the world, and then stand your wall.
"Firstly, what the Canuck is that white stuff on the ground?"Cocaine! No self respecting Carpenter crew would work without massive amounts of illicit drugs would they?"What is the capacity and reach of your boom truck?"Not far enough. Not heavy enough. We make it work though. I think we have a 12 or 15 ton capacity. That of course means the stick is pulled all the way in an not boomed down. We often tested the boom capacity and if possible we simply avoided the challenge by using the Skytrack. I think the crane boom was about 75' with the Jib in place. There was an extra 15' section in the jib that we never extended. I think we would have to pull a pin and manually extend it but we were getting enough length for the custom homes we were doing.Occasionally we would still hire a larger crane for special situations .The brick rack is a very simple idea. We use 1 x 4 utility and attach "brick blocks". This projects the frieze out 4 1/4". The blocks are spaced randomly, about 16" oc. Some framers like to use small blocks which are only several inches larger than the frieze board. I prefer to make the blocks larger: a minimum of 7" and usually 10 or 11". I do this because I prefer the stability of the wider base. I also like to make the blocks a very easy number such as 10" or 11" or 12" etc. That makes it very fast to mark them for cutting if I'm not using some form of a chopsaw and stop system. I've probably cut 200,000 brick blocks in my career and maybe 2,000 of them have been on a chopsaw. All the rest have been done with my sidewinder. I have several methods that I use that are very effective (fast). I'll find some pics of the brick rack system and attached overhangs and post them in here. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I can see that you build your overhang on the wall, knee brace it square to the world, and then stand your wall. "Actually, you are close with your assessment. We do build the overhang on the wall. We add enough braces to keep it from collapsing. We don't quite "square it to the world". We don't even square it to the wall! When I put the brace in, I intentionally brace it slightly low so it won't interfere with the truss setting. When the trusses are set, we pull it up the last 1/4 or 1/2" to it's level position and tie it to the trusses in several ways. I suppose you could say I give the overhang some "relief" so I don't have to fight with the truss installation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Do all the houses in MI get brick and wood soffit/fascia?If seems like your details are pretty much generic, yet I rarely see wood soffit around here and the brick rack is not that common either.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We use aluminum vented soffit and facia gutter. Comes in many colors.
The really important question is do you remove the guard and blade side sole plate from your skil saw? he,he,he,he,he
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Skil saw?"... Huskvarna 550 BABY! . Built some really nice cabinets with it. Just ask the guys over in F.W.
Actually I have many years ago. Used it for getting into tight spots and bucking out door pates and such. Haven't done that for a long time, seen it rip across some ones foot one day. Thank Christ he was wearing steel on his toes, made a mess of his fairly new boots though. Started to shy away from that idea when I was hearing horror stories about fingers and toes. It was popular in the 80s' around here. Wasn't a framing crew without such an animal amongst their tools. Nowa days O.H.S. will slap you with a fine so big it will make your head spin, if they see anything like that on your job site.
In the early 90s' some of the framers around here started to realize that chain saws weren't just for loggers anymore.
So here is a question for all you framers out there. How many of you guys use a chain saw in your repertoire, and for what purposes?
I have a story about a high ball multi - res crew that I was on for a while in the 90s'. They were the most skillful framers with a chain saw I ever did see. On a crew of about 20 I think they had 2 skil saws and 10 chain saws. I would practice a lot more of what I learned from them today if I wasn't so nervous about putting a chain saw in some of the peoples hands that work on my crew right now. Actually a few may be alright with a little training. May have to re think.
Sorry, was just thinking out loud on the last couple of sentences.
Jonsered 52, old like me. Also have and use an electric one at times. I am not a big enthusiast of them for framing, although if I were back at it full time I probably would own one with the base plate arrangement for gang cutting. The cut they leave just is to rough for my tastes.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I use a Husky 570 for head cutting on rafters, I have it mounted to a Bigfoot head cutter.
After gang cutting with it a few times I can't imagine going back to doing it one rafter at a time.
View Image
Heres a picture, dead on head cut.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 4/1/2008 1:00 am ET by MattSwanger
Nope, I've never used a chainsaw on the job. I tried someone's once on the truss tails that were still bundled but I found I could cut them just as fast with my Makita sidewinder while they were bundled. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Anyone want more or are we bored beyond belief? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/2/2008 4:39 pm by Jim_Allen
I'm interested. they are looking, not nessicarily posting
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Keep 'em up Jim... I love seeing houses' bones<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Okay...it's too much work if no one's interested. I'm almost to the hip box return section. I'll try to do some more tonite....tomorrow at the latest. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Take your time... it's not like there's a construction loan on those houses<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Good Point Holly! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Just another echo to say that, if you're willing, I'm interested and will be following any new content on this thread with great interest.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Snort wrote:
I love seeing houses' bonesI agree completely. I always really liked seeing houses at the rough framing stage. I think that was a large part of my recent decision to abandon the corporate world after 20 yrs and become a carpenter, so I could create and work amongst those bones.
keep it coming...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Not bored at all! Really enjoying it and learning from it.Keep it up.
I'm still interested. We start framing tomorrow after about 2 months of loose ends and a couple of weeks of foundation work
Was just curious, where does the framers job begin and end in your area?
Here we build ,pour and strip the foundation. Often and usually supervise the excavation. Put up the frame, no house wrap involved-siders job, and install exterior windows and doors.
Same question to framers in other areas.
As a sub-contractor, we simply waltzed in after the foundation (basement) was done, the rough grade completed and all the lumber was dropped. We'd then stand up all the wood including housewrap, exterior millwork and trim and sidings. We did no roofing or roof felt. Normally, the painter would come the day following our roof sheathing installation and spray all the overhangs, siding and exterior trim. The roofing sub would come the following day and put the roof on. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This thread ain't over till it's over. It was here that sparked my interest and made me want to get involved.
Here's a little something from my archives. This was a 6000sq/ft building that we framed. one of six for an extended care facility.
Yes back to the roof craning.This one was done in small sections and unsheathed because we were under the gun to get it off the floor of the next building so they could get the walls up and keep to schedule.
If only we could figure a way to get around all that "crazy" overhang detail you have to deal with. I'm working on it. You could build sections of roof on the ground and your crane truck could manage.
As you can see, we too like to keep our "snow" out in the open and spread all over the ground. That way we know no one is holding out.
Those are some wild pics CanadianFramer! Thanks for sharing!There have been times when I considered doing some (not all) of what you did there. That's too wild for my tastes LOL! Every time I've debated the merits of assembling large sections of the roof, I end up negating the idea for several reasons. I don't like the time spent staging the mocked plates. I don't like the time staging the landing areas. I don't like the time spent hooking the large assemblies and making sure they don't crumble and collapse when we lift them. I don't like hiring large cranes because of their hourly and minimum rates. There was a guy from Pennslvania that posted similar pics as yours. His system involved slightly smaller homes but they weren't cracker boxes by no stretch of the imagination. He would build his deck, then set his trusses up on them as if they were the walls. He'd assemble the entire roof, then sheet the roof. The crane would come and pick this roof off and set it aside. They'd frame their walls, then call the crane back to set the roof on top of the walls. I myself cannot wrap my arms around this concept. I do not see how it can be cost effective but he liked it because he felt it was safer to sheath the roof only a few feet from the ground. That would be a valuable consideration to me above three stories but I just can't justify it on a single story home. Even though I'm not impressed with the economics, I've very impressed with the jobsite engineering! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Every time I've debated the merits of assembling large sections of the roof, I end up negating the idea for several reasons. I don't like the time spent staging the mocked plates. I don't like the time staging the landing areas. I don't like the time spent hooking the large assemblies and making sure they don't crumble and collapse when we lift them. I don't like hiring large cranes because of their hourly and minimum rates.
No mock plates needed. You had mentioned this a couple of times an I have been meaning to address it. Very minimal layout required, even on the walls, only girders and maybe the odd leading truss. I can layout 18 1x4 or 9 2x4 @ 14' in about 1 minute on 24" centers. If you are lucky enough to have a sister building within cranes reach, well bonus!! And again no laying and squaring of mock plates, because we built the floor square, "right". The only landing area should be on your walls. The guy in Pennsylvania is craning and handling his roof twice. To me that is just wrong, handling 1 2x4 more than once, if avoidable, is just impractical. He must have money to burn.
When we do this practice we really only handle the trusses once, same as standing them conventionally one at a time as on walls. Only two or three times faster because we can run or jog with them, instead of heel to toe movements when walking walls. Some guys are better than others at traversing the walls. The only extra step is positioning the roof on the walls. That really only takes minutes if everyone has their wits about them that day.
Building sections on the ground is really a piece of cake. No need to have relatively level ground, or even square up and dimension temp plates. The pictures of the sheathed house roof that I posted was built on sloped and uneven ground. Just have to make it flat, can be sitting at any angle. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.
As far as the rigging up goes, that should be part of the planing as you build. If you notice on the pics that I mentioned in the previous paragraph, there were specific holes cut in the sheathing to accept the cables at our pre determined pick points. There was no try and try again to position the points of carry. Well maybe on one cable, but a sharp eye can notice any adjustments needed the second the crane starts to take the weight. You actually want the roof to fly slightly off kilter. That way when you go to set it you can place one corner, pin it securely, unhook its cable, the "SKILLFUL" crane operator can then pivot the next lowest corner into position, set, pin, unhook, and so on.
As far as the economical benefits and pitfalls are concerned, well that is almost a discussion on its' own. I will say this however. I had the opportunity to learn a lot of this at some one else's expense, and thank you very much to all of them. Some of those very seasoned and skillful carpenters/heavy construction workers, that I have worked under, may not even be alive today, but I will never forget what they gave me. When I tried this practice on my own for the first couple of times, I know that I lost a few bucks, made some mistakes and learned a few school of hard knocks lessons. Not always practical to do in every situation. Then some conditions just scream for it, and with methodical planning and focus it all comes together and so does the economic benefit.
"Building sections on the ground is really a piece of cake. No need to have relatively level ground, or even square up and dimension temp plates. The pictures of the sheathed house roof that I posted was built on sloped and uneven ground. Just have to make it flat, can be sitting at any angle. There is always more than one way to skin a cat."Okay, I'm missing something here. I understand about the theory of only needing to create a flat plane. I've built hundreds of components on planes that were out of level but flat. I'm not understanding how you get the roof started without parallel and square parameters. Do you just set a truss on the ground and start adding adjacent trusses to it? In my mind, here's what I would need to do. I'd have to set up parallel plates to the exact length of the building. I'd have to square them. If the lot was sloped, it would complicate that aspect of the setup although not much. Probably, the fundamental reason that I can't wrap my arms around the idea is that our overhangs are finished and the truss system would have to fit to the 1/4" all the way around. You're system allows for some flexibility in that regard because you set your roof, then construct your soffit system off scaffolds, working from the established fascia line back to the house. I'm guessing that you probably use a lot of aluminum soffit systems and you might not need to do anything to the soffits after setting the roof. All in all, it's very interesting. As I think back, I do remember framing a rather large roof system and setting it with the crane back in my industrial construction days. I had to build a large workshop area for the pipefitters and I did the prebuild system. It was a simple rectangle though and not very challenging at all. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 4/5/2008 11:32 am by Jim_Allen
I found some pictures that should help explain my madness a little. The pictures aren't the greatest, the sun was in my wife's face while she was taking them.
Hopefully you can see it well enough in the pics. The trusses are simply supported by the facia board nailed to the tail ends. Setting the trusses is all done by layout on the facia and 1x4 strapping. A quick diagonal squareup measure from heel to heel across the bottom cords, as well as a string across the heels on one side, accompanied by a sledge hammer, dials it all in nicely. Before the bottom cord strapping is nailed of course. A 2x6 tacked to the underside of the ridge spanning all the way through provides the support for the lift, and allows you to sling in any position to balance the load.
Three of us put this together in no more than about an hours time while waiting for the crane that morning. This one made great economic sense. I,m guessing it may have taken 3 or 4 times that to assemble it working over a wide open garage. Around here the builder pays the crane time for a standard truss lift, so no cost to me here, as it didn't take long for these two sections. When I call in the big boy it's my dime at 260 an hour plus travel time. So I'd better have my sh!t together and get him in and out of there as quick as possible. I try not to think about that lift that went sour on me, except for what I learned from it. When I think about the bill that I got I just want to curl up and cry.
I'll go back and look at your overhang detail. I'm wondering if part of it could be built on tour truss tails.
"'ll go back and look at your overhang detail. I'm wondering if part of it could be built on tour truss tails."If you can figure something out, you'll be a better man than I. I've studied that system from every point of view a hundred times or more during my long career! I've tried dozens of different ideas. I suspected that your alignment system was dependent on the subfascia. Thanks for verifying that. I still have trouble justifying the numbers but perhaps there is something about our indidual crews or setting styles that give us different results. I've analyzed the numbers on pre assembling sets just like you are showing and I can't find any significant gain for our crew. If you look at our system, which sends two trusses at a time to two carpenters on the walls, I've stated that we cycle the crane every four or five minutes. I actually think it's much faster but I dont' think it is believable, so I opted to state a 5 minute cycle for the two trusses. From memory, I know that if the crane operator is slow, I'll be standing there twiddling my thumbs waiting for the trusses. If the crane operator and machinery is good, we will all be timed rather closely and in sync. That means that the crane will spend about 15 seconds getting unhooked after the trusses land and then immediately swing over and drop the hook. The slow part is the swinging of the old boom for us. It doesn't move that fast unless we rev at high speeds. It doesnt matter that much so I prefer medium revs. The instant the hook is within range of the trusses on the ground, they are hooked and heading upward. Sometimes, the operator might have to pause five seconds for the rope guy to get to the end to hook the rope. That's "sometimes" not "always". So, the cycle begins again...swing, drop and unhook. The swing time is 30 to 45 seconds. The unhook time is 15 seconds. There are two swing cycles. It all adds up to 3- 5 minute for two trusses. You are showing a bank of trusses of 7 units. Two banks. That is 14 trusses or 7 cycles. Thats 35 minutes of setting time. We always send the first truss up alone and the crane stays hooked till it's braced. That's five minutes itself normally..sometime ten on difficult ones. The end gable goes up alone. Thats another five minutes but on a small garage as shown, we'd probably just shut the crane off and let the guys do the bracing an nailing and let the crane down later when we needed something else. When we rented crane time, we'd just brace the gable and use up that five or ten minutes. So the number look like this on a typical 3 car garage: one "first truss" at 5 mins. 8 cycles of two trusses at five minutes each. One gable set at ten minutes. That's 55 minutes for the four man crew (two setters, one crane op and one hooker). Total elapsed time: 3 hours 40 minutes. We may be factoring our gable times in different. As demonstrated, we also sheath our gable on the ground. That prep time on the gable would be an addition to the numbers shown. Most simple garage gables are fabbed rather quickly, including the wood overhangs that we install. The typical wood overhangs would be a 1x rake (frieze), 1x8 soffit, 2x4 sub fascia, 1x6 rake and quite often a 1x2 molding that hides the edge of the plywood. Essentially, it is a five part gable trim package. Because the overhang is so small, there is no need for lookouts as you have framed in your system, which would add some time as compared to our system. On occasion, I have let in lookout blocks as needed, but I cannot every remember needing them for an 8" projection. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This isn't necessarily a question germane to panelization, but what is your preferred method to brace the gable end?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am a very flexible thinker when it comes to bracing anything. I think your question pertains to temp bracing when we are setting the trusses and gables so my answer will be geared at that.Typically, on a gable that is about the size of garage, we don't feel like we need any substantial bracing because often, we'll immediately begin sheathing the gable. The plywood will start tying it in in a few minutes. Were not crazy though so the temp bracing has to be substantial enough to hold it till the ply is nailed. But....there is one temp brace that is very, very important to us: the brace that locks in the peak at it's exact plumb position! So, if we were setting trusses that might be 26' long, we'd lay a stud down on the bottom chords and nail it to the gable, then into the trusses that it reaches. That becomes the base of our triangle. We then nail a stud up as high as we can practically reach, near the peak, and have someone hold the plumbstick. When it's plumb, we shoot the bottom of the brace into the base. This very simply setup locks the peak exactly where we need it. If we are working on a studio ceiling, we might drop the brace all the way to the deck. Sometimes, we'll drop that brace all the way to the deck anyways...whatever is faster at the time. On larger gables, we'll repeat this temp bracing at midpoint of each of the long sides of the gable. So, a larger garage gable might have three of these temp setups. The only one that we ALWAYS have is the peak brace. That is important because it is one of the key starting points to a nice straight roof deck and overhang on the gable. Of course we also tie in the last temp lacer with the run that we were using to hold the trusses up while setting them. That run is anchored solidly somewhere.If we are not going to be able to install the sheathing that day, I typically will do the same temp bracing system but then add some "leaners". These leaners are simply long linial footage of something...2 x4, 2x6 2x10...whatever, which is wedged up on both sides of the gable. These "safeties" as I call them, are just there as secondary braces that will assist in holding the gable from toppling if a huge wind comes up in the night and trys to rearrange our work. Obviously, if we are working on the second story of a walkout, we will not be able to lean any "safeties" up on the outside. So, we'll lay diagonals on top of the set trusses and nail them up from the heel to the gable. I prefer not to use this last type of temp brace because it's too hard to get the brace loose and get the nails out. I like the "leaners" because theres no nailing and they are instantly removed and ready for reuse. I actually have lots of mental rules about temp braces. I'm very anal and always want things braced for 60 mph winds when I head for home. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,Thanks for your explanation. Your process pretty much mirrors what we do, although I may adopt the idea of using full length studs for "lacers" as we have been cutting 25-1/2" blocks and that is a pain and wastes lumber (unless you can use them for blocking later).My question about the gable bracing was spawned when I read that you set the gable alone, then commence with your two trusses per crane swing process. When the gable is standing there all by it's lonesome, you can't brace it to the other trusses (they're on the ground still) and you can easily run a diagonal down to the floor (it will get in the way of the first common truss).We typically nail some 7" blocks flush to a stud in a "C" shape, with the stud being the vertical leg of the "C". Those blocks are then nailed to the wall studs and gable studs. This kind of works, but I wondered if you had a faster or more secure method.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I tried and rejected the 25 1/2" method some time in the 80's. There were several reasons why I rejected the idea. I didn't like the wasted time measuring and cutting, even if I did it all in a jig. I didn't like the idea of split out. I especially didn't like seeing the blocks laying around with nails sticking out of them when the guy's laid the plywood. I didn't like trying to stage them up in the trusses while we were receiving the trusses because they tended to fall, usually near someone's head. I didn't like someone starting nails in them. Lots of dislikes...very few positives. I then tried 49 1'2" blocks. They were better in many regards but still not quite right. They led me to trying the 73 1/2" blocking that led me to the full stud idea. I always hated wasting the time measuring and cutting, even if I found uses for the blocks later. Eventually, I relalized that using full studs killed two birds with one stone: they laced the trusses and delivered studs to the roof for kickers. Second question: bracing the gable. We never set the gables first. I stopped that idea back in the 80's too. At some point, I started setting all the trusses, then we set the gable last. That process usually serves two purposes. It gives the crane operator better vision and easier access to the setting process. It then gives us a base to b race the gable from. Your concern about getting the braces in the way of the next trusses drove our decisions too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I just ran across this set of pics from a house in Macomb County. It kind of demonstrates our framing tactics. This is somewhat of a repeat of some previous postins. Bear with me. These three pics show the advantage to putting up the accessory roofs first. We typically lean over and complete all the exterior trimwork, including all the parts on the cornice, before we sheath them. The sheathing is very easy to do when working off the second floor deck. Notice the kickers on the front roof. The lowest kicker is done in the L style. This is a great catcher of stray tools and parts. I insist that they be put on the bottom row of every sheet. Then, notice the other kickers. I put one down for every sheet till I can reach the top. I also create a "ladder" by putting smaller blocks in between the 4' main kickers. This setup creates a system that alleviates a lot of the demand of sticking to the roof. The younger guys don't realize how much energy is wasted by not putting these kickers on. As I got older, I figured out that I could work all day laying plywood and not feel so beat up if I kickered everything. In the end, I can move around much faster and with less energy. The bonus is that I'm safer. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was rummaging for some pics of the bracing but I found this instead. This sequence shows how I work up in the roofs doing layons and other conventional framing that ties in with the trusswork. These two pics show the way that I determine the length of the ridge. I have several methods but this is probably the one I use 80% of the time. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Taking a step back, I'll show you the setup for filling this hole. First, I lay plywood on trusses and add some basic cleats to keep me on the roof. Remember, there will be a lot of sawdust, so these footholds are critical. There is nothing fancy here...I just add each one exactly where I need it to make my job easy. These were probably laid to assist me in laying the plywood.You might note that I don't bother installing ply clips in the overlay area. The main reason that I lay the plywood underneath in the dead attic space is to brace the top chord of the trusses, which is required by the engineering specs. They usually require lacers at 24" oc. Continuous plywood exceeds those standards. I lay the plywood because I wan't a solid base to walk on. I don't like balancing on strapping. As you can see, I have a stash of plywood, a box of fasteners, my saw, a stapler and a nailer. On hot days, I'd have a gallon of water hiding from the sun somewhere close. Basically, I get comfy before I start this phase...notice the highest kicker on the plywood. That will become my plank holder. You'll see that in the upcoming pics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a differnt shot of my "stash". I know I didn't build that plywood rack. That one is using a lot more lumber and engineering than one that I do. I might sometimes add a diagonal brace but I'd never have a horizontal top member....kids.....harumph! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Back to the ridge.The ridge is shown in it's "measuring" position. It is upside down meaning it's crowned down. It's probably straight because I wouldn't use a crowned piece of lumber here unless I was desperate. Anyways, the close up shows how I've driven the spike at a horizontal angle. I've placed it 3/4" down to mimic the precise location that the ridge will ultimately nail at. Notice the torpedo level. I lay the level on the ridge and slide the assembly back and forth till it reads level. I then mark the point that it intersects the last truss. This will become the actual length of the ridge. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
After marking the point of the intersection, I take the ridge down, flip it around and put the pitch cut. Since there were no framing square in the "stash", I most likely made that cut by eye. I'm calling it a "lucky cut" because I don't want to imply that I will get this perfect of a fit on every eyeball cut. On the "easy" pitches, I might get it first time 75% of the time or more. It all depends on how many angles I'm cutting. If this is the first one in a month, I might have to trim it once. Summed up, I don't normally use a tape or square to get the ridges cut. I use this simple one man operation. The system gives me the long point of the ridge. If I make a bad cut and have to trim it, I'll simply pull the last truss over to compensate. I can't envision needing to move the truss any more than 1/4" if I make a first bad cut. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the fill in rafters on the other side of the ridge staged. I probably wasn't the one that installed that lower ridge...that isn't my style at all and I'm probably just "going with the flow". There might be a reason for that ridge, but I doubt it. It's just slowing the roof framing process down a bit.Kids! I'm calling them "staged commons" but they are technically a "jack". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the parts installed.I've added the secondary ridge filler to meet the technical requirement that the ridge be deeper than the vertical cut of the rafters. It prevents the bottom of the rafters from splitting downward under pressure. I know that these small rafters won't split becasue they are only hanging down below that 2x8 ridge 1/4" or so, but I don't want to take the chance that the inspector will require us to deal with this technical violation some time in the future. I view this as a risk vs reward part. I "waste" one stud but might save two hours on a service call. Even if I had 2 x10s on site, I'd probably opt to do the ridge like this or use a 2x6 and 2x4 combo. Basically, I just use whatever is handy, close and easy to install. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows a valley board that I have installed. Most guys snap line for the placement of the valley. I rarely do. I hate snapping lines. Instead, I eyeball the bottom cut on a long 1x6 utility board. I then lay the board so the tip of the board meets the top of the last truss. That becomes my pivot point and I normally sight the top into the ridge intersection and shoot the board down to the deck. Or I install the top of the valley board first and pivot the bottom into the proper plane. Either way, it's much faster and easier than snapping lines. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the cut of the plywood. I'll flop one into this position and stick one nail in it somewhere. I then eyeball the ply cut using the ridge as my sightline. When I flip the two pieces onto the roof, they usually will fit nicely. Occasionally, I'll need to re-trim them. I don't like leaving hacked looking ply cuts even though there is a significant amount of leeway allowed because the valley roofing materials never really get tight in there. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the the piece laid. Since I've only eyeballed the length, it needs to be fit exactly inbetween the last piece of plywood and the valley board. I lap cut through both of them for a perfect fit everytime that leaves a saw kerf for expansion. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows my normal system of working from the "valley board out". 95% of the carpenters I see work it opposite. In this pic, I've laid the "drop" into the valley and it's hanging off past the last truss it can reach. In this picture, I'm showing how I would cut it half on using my fingers as the "rip guide". After cutting the ply half on, I'd then run the row of plywood out to the other end and start the next row at the valley again. I'm doing this shot for the benefit of explaining why I start from the valley out. It's basically because I never pull my tape out for any of these measurements. The actual cut in this picture would be a lap cut as I've described in the post above. In this situation, I'd drop an 8' piece of OSB over that last rafter and lap cut them together for the perfect fit. Often, I do the cut first, then raise it slightly and install the clips. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That sequence pretty much sums up my "conventional roof framing" process on most layons. I'd work my way around every hole in the roof using this system. Typically, I would start the entire side of the roof right here in that hole but the boys probably got a jump on me on this particular roof. I usually try to avoid working a roof in this sequence but often there are other mitigating circumstances so it's not unusual that I'd be filling in this hole after the main part of this slope is laid. Doing these roof fillins is always a "chicken and egg" debate. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I found this pic which shows the back side of that lay on sequence. That's my style ply rack. I can see now why the ridge was added. It was needed to keep the plane of the roof intact while we laid this side. The second pics show the side being laid and the bottom row of "L style" kickers on the bottom. I put one set per sheet on the bottom of all roofs. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a pic of me "fixing" my new Makita. This shows a good pic of my standard sawhorses. I'd guess that they would hold a bunk of studs just the way they are built. I've never tried it but I'd be willing to bet a milkbone or two that they'd hold it up but I wouldn't leave them that way. The impending collapse would be disastrous. Pic 2707 shows the saw in ready position for the hammer swat. One swat with the hammer and the tool is ready for use. An old framing buddy showed me that trick and I laughed pretty hard when I saw him do it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Incidently, the reason I "fix" my saw is for OSHA training purposes. I'm getting that saw ready for newbies to identify a safe saw and an unsafe saw. I put that saw side by side by a good saw and if they can identify the safe saw, I hire them. No one should ever use a saw like this except in strictly controlled labratory conditions. In order to operate it in labratory conditions, a 75 page document must be filed with OSHA explaining the test and outlining the safety procedures implemented to do the safety testing. This process is very timeconsuming and costly. It normally takes two years and many thousands of dollars in filing fees to get permission to run the tests. I circumvent the need for all those regulations by removing the motor and arbor from the saw. No one should ever attempt this safety test without first consulting a professional for advice. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows my normal system of working from the "valley board out". 95% of the carpenters I see work it opposite.
I just got back from spending the weekend in Seattle with the wife. Saw Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds play on Friday night. Man that was good!!
I agree with the statement above. I think its easier to cut starting in the valley and working out, plus it seems to make it easier to use scrap more efficiently.
Keep posting. I'm loving this. ;-)
Thanks for the encouragement. I started a seperate dormer version of this. I'll be back there tonite or tomorrow.
I've done a lot of long valleys and heres what I do. I mark my cut line down the center of the sheets and run the saw through, cutting three plys deep. This gives me six starters for the valley for one side. Normally, that will get me most or all the way up to the top. Then, I lay them in first. This does two things. It get us started and more importantly, it gives me a great place to ascend and descend easily.
I've occasionally worked with stubbord framers who think this idea is beneath their dignity and I see them doing it their way. I don't say anthing...I just cut the stack and send them all up. After they are forced into using my pieces, they usually comment later on how fast and easy it made the valley job! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I've gone both ways with the valley sheathing. We seem to do a lot of hip roofs around here lately, past 15 yrs or so. Piecing in the valleys with your hip cut offs seemed a good way to utilize material and keep the builder off your back about waste. I,m starting to rethink this, or not. Dam it I'm just not sure?
I've always taught my guys to do a half sheath stager where ever possible, probably because that is what I was taught, even though a one center stagger is acceptable. Then I seen the article on prefabed floor systems, and there, no stager in sheathing? Going to check our building code on this. If no stager required, then what the hell. That changes everything as far as a prefab environment goes.
Any how, I've used the system of using the ridge to mock my valley and lap cutting the excess. I do it myself all the time. Have been Leary of teaching the 2nd year guys that I have on my crew, quite simply because I hate looking up a valley and seeing it snake its way to the ridge. So I've taught my 4th year guys to frame the lay on valley, and the 2nd, 3rd guys to plane, chalk, measure, and cut. And in the process use as much scrap cut offs as possible. I'm seriously going to revisit the whole valley concept, thanks to you getting me thinking on it again.
Always the truss companys' around here send out "valley sets". Apparently the houses that the truss designers live in don't have sheathing on the roofs, so they don't account for the sheathing under the valley truss, and when I question them on this, they expect me to lay the "valley truss" directly on the top cord of the underlying trusses and block both sides of the valley, Yeah like that will ever happen on my job site. I love it when in the colder months, the builder comes by and we have a $300 "valley set" bon fire going. I usually invite him to warm his toes by his fire while I explain to him about truss companys' and "California valleys". Usually the next house I frame for him has no factory "valley sets". And we have colder toes. I do however have to try and get away from all that measuring and line snapping in our valley framing. Big waste of time. The more I think about it, the more I realize how many THOUSANDS of dollars are potentially out the window each year with our current method.
Would still like to see your prefab wall system. Show me yours' and I'll show you mine ;-)
"Piecing in the valleys with your hip cut offs seemed a good way to utilize material"Thats not me! I cut full sheets in half, on the proper angle and lay them into the valley. I then cut the sheet half on the first framing member or I do a lap cut when I start laying the "common" sheets. When I get to the hip, I save whatever cut off for the next course up, on the hip. If it's not a great fit, I tack it and save it. I save ALL pieces if they are trianglular shaped as small as 6". I don't save parallelograms. There is no waste in this system. I don't care how you calculate or lay it out, you will not save any more material than what I am doing. The joints are automatically staggered, at least one truss. On roofs, I don't focus on staggering more than one truss. On floors, I require that the stagger be at least two joists (32" minimum) because I have had to go back and cut out plywood that was only staggered 16". I've never allowed the 16" stagger and I know I've never done it, but occasionally a new guy will get a couple sheets laid wrong before I notice. It has came back to burn me! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quit burning the valley sets. Even though they are calculated to lay directly onto the framing, we just ignore the first layout and lay them over the sheathing. We toenail them into the sheathing and it works fine. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"If only we could figure a way to get around all that "crazy" overhang detail you have to deal with. I'm working on it. You could build sections of roof on the ground and your crane truck could manage."We easily could figure a way to merge our overhangs with preframed roofs. I just cannot see the economics in it. The difference between our economic calculations might lie in the equipment we have onsite all day everyday. If we didn't have a crane onsite, we might rethink the time factor for setting the trusses. Your guys manually walk them over to the flat staging area to set them. For us, that would be double handling...something I avoid like the plague. We attempt to only touch the trusses once. When we hook them, they are sent in pairs to the guys taking them and setting them. That's a 4-5 minute cycle for each pair of trusses. That cycle involves 4 guys (two setters, one crane operator and one hooker) usually but can be done with three (the crane operator has to do the hooking). So, doing the math, we invest ten minutes per truss (5x4/2) to hook and set it. That equates to about 16 hours on a 100 truss house.Its awful hard to find a way to trim time and money off a 16 hour investment. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think the hardest part of doing the job that I posted earlier in this thread was figuring out how to lift the roof once all complete. IIRC, we used a bunch of 6x6's and 4 pick points. That left no more than 12' of unsupported trusses, which with roof and floor sheathing installed, I thought was fine.Our project is nowhere near the scale of yours, so I'm wondering how you deal with getting the roof up. It looks like the crane slings are just on the top chords of the trusses. I would be concerned with that, but then again I've never tried it.How do you typically calculate where & how to lift the roof?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I've lifted tons of stuff (literally) hooking onto the tops only. It normally works but at some point you have to look carefully to analyze the loading. On occation, I've sistered another member onto the chord to provide wider spread of the load. The real danger is the operator and crane. If he's herky jerky, the snap of the boom after the bounce can wreak havoc on anything that seems to be stabilized. We typically hook in one or two spots and attempt to get a decent balance. We typically do a trial and error thing using instincts to get the right placement. The four point hookup that CanadianFramer us using is necessary for such a large load. I admire his gumption. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How do you typically calculate where & how to lift the roof?
My calculations are mainly based on experience and instinct. Every roof is a little different. You really have to look at your roof and visualize how it is going to fly, know how the weight is distributed and what areas may need a little beefing up. The sound of lumber snapping is really quite horrifying. It's some what difficult to explain strictly in words. Pictures and diagrams would really help answer this question.
The next time I lift a roof, and I will, I will try to take more detailed pics of the techniques I use.
You still on BT or did the mods boot you? This shows a gable that is ready for installation. This lot was very tight and we had to lean and stack everything everywhere while bringing in the lumber in stages. This particular gable is that fake stucco covered with rough sawn trim. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Still here, haven't been booted, yet.
Spring is finally here, wife has been working me to the bone around the yard and house.
Wouldn't mind seeing some pics of your methods for prefabing walls. Came across an article in FHB about a guy that puts his windows and siding on before he stands his walls. You may have seen. Also an article about prefabed floor systems, that excites me. 8' by whatever length. Sheathing is not staggered, that doesn't excite me so much.
Starting a 48 unit town house complex in 3wks, that really excites me. Using a styrofoam foundation system. Not blocks, panels. "TF System". Have never done before. If any one here has, any feedback would be appreciated.
I have my eye on a mini, fully portable tower crane I'm thinking of using for this job. 80' tall, 82' reach. 1800 lbs out at the tip.
Gotta run, wife is asking if I'm ever going to do anything today. She just doesn't understand. TTYL
I don't know if the gable dormer thread I'm starting counts as prefabbing walls, but there will be some pics in it of the prefabbing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Those are awesome pics! Would you mind putting them in a folder and zipping it and uploading it using sendpace or similar? I would love to have the whole set, but a too lazy to grab each pic.
We just started framing again today after some down time and your pics have got me jazzed up!!
I'll work on that for you.
I occasionally worked in neighborhoods that covered the soffits and fascias in aluminum. That was rarer than working on homes without brick though. Even in subdivisions that installed vinyl siding, we would usually put wood cornice systems with wood corner boards and they had brick on the lower levels. This allowed them to deliver a wider variety of colors using the standard stock vinyl siding. Momma could paint the cornice and cornerboards whatever color that struck her fancy instead of being locked into the standard vinyly corner that matched the siding. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yes....98% of every house I built had brick on the first floor all the way around. Some had brick on both floors all the way around. Most would have siding on the second floor on the sides and rear. I might remember fifteen or twenty houses that I did with no brick racks....but they were rare. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jon, I think this shot of the overhang pretty much sums up what 90% of the overhangs I've built looks like. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows that same overhang from a farther perspective. That overhang is installed full to the front and back gables. We'll tie the gables into that overhang and theoretically, it is the exact length needed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows that same garage wall later with the trusses set. I don't have a good shot of the back gable and the tie in. The front is going to get a swoop so that had to be done after the fact. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I did find a pic of that intersecting gable. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Earlier in this thread I talked about using studs for kickers and reusing them later in the frame. Here's my alternative method; one that I really liked. It was a little wasteful though because we couldn't reuse these kickers. They are made out of 1x3 furring strips. I prefer to use them when we are getting near the end because studs get into short supply and usually there is lots of this utility stock left over. I prefer this type of kicker because we can hook our staplers on them. Also, I don't have to switch tool: I staple the 1x3 onto the deck, then staple the second piece offset to provide the grab for the hook. Additionally, since we do all our cutting up on the roof, we have to store our cuts somewhere. These staggerered furr strips are the perfect catcher for plywood cuts. Often, I don't bring the nail gun with me...only the stapler. I staple each sheet as I lay it. I learned that lesson when I worked solo with a T150 small compressor. It's also good policy in the winter because it's not fun going back to nail roofs that have ice and snow and winter dew on the. On my jobs, every piece that is laid is nailed right then! The new guy hotshots come on the job telling me they'll nail it all tomorrow at one time and I say no. That aint gonna happen. I've had to go behind too many of these guys and do their nailing...often on icy and dangerous conditions. Theirs only one way to lay plywood with me: nail it as you go or ....you go! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Heres a couple pics of a sole plate that needs cutting out of the doorway. If you want to see how it gets cut using my sidewinder Makita, email me. I'd post it but the last time I posted it someone went whining to the brass and they pulled the pic. Too dangerous. I've seen fifty more dangerous things posted, but nevertheless, I'm going to honor their wishes. Its their site. Of course, the pics that I will email you will be for informational purposes. They are pictures that teach you how NOT to cut plates! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows a gable getting the final nails before lift off. You can clearly see that the overhang is pushed out for brick with a brick rack.Those horse are made by one of the younger bucks on the crew. They have too much splay and I'm surprised that they didn't collapse from the weight of the gable. Horses are one way I judge the mans ability to field engineer things. I'd be leery of turning over a complicated seat of the pants engineering job to the builder of those ponies.Edit: I forgot to mention that I don't mind the lightweight materials used on them...just the angles. I always insisted that the guys build them light because sometimes I had to lift them and I don't like heavy sawhorses. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/31/2008 10:20 pm by Jim_Allen
This shows that same gable after standing it. I'm surprised that Frank was able to get it off the horses without knocking them over. He's much more gentle than I. That gable looks like it's prepped to finish out a studio ceiling somewhere in the house. We've framed the stud walls, put the drywall backing on and most likely installed draftstopping to prevent fires from drawing out of the attic. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows Ben and Carl waiting for the gable to come in. The second pics shows it already down. All three (Frank is looking too) must be wondering how to get it unhooked or something. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Okay....I'm bored and tired of talking to myself. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
this is pretty cool seeing it all coming together so well. do you often frame like this, did I miss the answer in the first posts?
Can you hold the laser level while I shave?
Andy, I tried to send that reply about the door cuts but it bounced on your hotmail account. I guess they think I'm spamming you.Yes, we always frame like that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Told you they enjoy this ;)
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
"Huskvarna 550 BABY"
A-Men to that! My motto is " If it's behind me it's DONE!" What is the point of tracing your steps back and trying to remember what you left behind.
remember the carpenter's rules: work from the hard spot out toward the easy.No way I'm changing now, ha, ha, ha! Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
"While the shooter is nailing, the crane guy is self unhooking."I may be a dunce, but how does a crane guy "self unhook"?That would be a very helpful piece of information. We typically climb up or use a ladder to get to the peak. Problematic when you're installing 12/12 trusses with a truss height of 11'.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Dont call OSHA on us but we simply use a cable and loop it. Look closely at the hookup on this gable set. The crane operator only needs to nudge the hood down and the cable will pop off the one side. He'll carefully lower it down between the gable and first truss and the cable can't do anything but slide off. Occasionally both of the loops will slide off but the operator is lowering slowly to prevent that. Usually, he is effective in getting the one loop to disembark and he simply pulls up and takes off. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Since you were paying attention; this ones for you.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I already knew Bob's next test date?
Barry E-Remodeler
Heres a followup to the house we were panelizing. This shows the rear wall in later stages. We saw the first floor wall getting set next to the bay. Now, we are ready to set the upper gable. It's all going to be buried in an unfinished attic. I've got this particular wall being framed and can post it if anyone wants to see it.If someone wants the orignal big files posted on any pic, just ask. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
that gable/chimney wall was particullarly cool! keep em coming,please
I'm glad you appreciated it. I'll try to find some time tomorrow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ring Ring JSan.These pics show the chimney box sheathed and the second shot shows the inside of the box. Notice that I'm not wasting any studs inside there. This is a vinyl job with rough sawn wood corners. The last pic shows the corner boards installed. We staple them on and cut them exactly where they need to be terminated above the roofline.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
If youre awatchin', I'ma postin'! This shows the brick rack attached. You can also see the mock up roof attached. I'll now go about the business of installing the frieze first and fit it tight to the mocked up roof. We set the frieze down by math. It's very simple math....the sub fascia is 3 1/2" + the thickness of the soffit (7/8"). Unfortunatly, I don't know if I have this sequence. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey! Did that snow drift every melt and let you home? Here's the pic of this gable getting set. I couldn't find any pics showing the overhang parts getting installed...only these finishing pics were they are setting the finished gable over the previously installed hip returns. The first pic shows the truss landing. The second pic shows the truss after it's set. You can see the clearance over the existing hip box. The shingles will slide up under there and still provide clearance for drying. If there's too much, birds can get in. One trick that I've used if we miscalculate and leave a bird hole is to lay a second layer of plywood on the hip box. Once, I remember having to lay a 3/4' layer. That will make for a solid roof deck eh? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
by the rate it's disappearing I suspect there will be a bunch of it to greet the this years new winter...
edited because it looked like BB typed this posting...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 3/30/2008 10:03 pm by IMERC
thanks for thinking of us knukle draggers...
nice resizing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yer welcome.What was the name of that word processing program that someone recomended to replace Microsoft word? It was office something I think. I want to download and try it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Open Office....
open office download the big suite
or
http://www.openoffice.org/
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
did you put in the open office???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yes!!!!!!!Open Office Rocks!!!! Goodbye Microsoftcrap forever!!!!!!!!!!! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
life is so much better without Microshid....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Re: Open OfficeI have been using the spreadsheet and have one complaint - I think that the entire interface and functionality related to printing is really crappy compared to excel.
Anyone else share this observation?
I haven't tried to print from it yet but I ALWAYS had trouble getting the microsoft crapola to print right. I love the PDF capability of the Open Office programs. It's fast and ONLY ONE BUTTON! Microcrap would run me around for hours before it would do anything! I just had to help Frank with his Vista and I would toss that in the garbage! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This shows the rear of the house. That rear wall was most likely built in two sections. It's possible to do the entire thing in one, but in most cases, there's no need. It becomes a bulky item to manage and remember....the table was only about 18' long...maybe 20'. Thats all for now. I gotta get some work done. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07