Yup, PlumbBill is on strike.
UA Local 32 Plumbers & Pipefitters voted down the contract offer on Thursday May 29th.
Contract expires on May 31st.
Per our bylaws we do not work without a contract.
My union management was shocked that we voted down the offer, & they didn’t prepare to have a place for the counter offer, so now they are scrambling to find a venue to hold a vote for the counter offer of 10 cents more & some verbiage changes.
Some of the union management decided to yell at the rank & file members about how serious a strike is, I had to remind them that their paycheck comes out of our dues & they are our reps not our boss & they serve at our pleasure not theirs.
It was a 3 yr offer with biannual raises of 3.61%, 3.49%, 3.29%, 3.18%, 3.2%, & 3.1%.
I stated to the members that our raises need to be in the 4% range just to keep up with inflation, since our last contract did not keep up with inflation.
I addressed the members how much gas could be bought with 1 hour of labor when we started the current contract & how much 1 hour labor bought at the end of the contract which was almost 7 dollars more per hour & bought 6 gallons less of fuel.
I’m not stating that our raises should keep up with gas prices, cause that would be naive.
BUT if we switched to a 4-10 work week that would save 20% in fuel costs—— I think that fell on deaf ears.
Replies
Cool! When do we burn this muther down?
I have only been involved in that kind of deal once. Back in the early eighties. (UFCW) I remember at the meeting someone asked if our strike fund was paid up? The union bosses were stunned. They said we were weren't gonna go on strike. It seemed pretty unanimous to me that we were. Very few were willing to accept the offer the compnay made. To everyones shock the contract passed. I think the union lied about the outcome of the votes.
Want to know what isn't popular in a union meeting the following month after shenanigans like that? Asking to table a motion to switch to the United Mine Workers or any Union with balls. Man can they come back with some nasty replies. :)
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-VBpLQSPD8&feature=related
Edited 6/1/2008 12:07 pm ET by Gunner
We don't have a "secret ballot" on contract votes.
Audio vote followed by a division of the room if it "sounds " too close to call.
Striking & the ability to go on strike is why we don't make minimum wage.
On of the reps decided to lecture the rank & file on how serious a strike is----- well no shid----- our next vote I will have to remind him that the rank & file know how serious a strike is when we are not getting paid & the reps are!
I was "down Sound" yesterday and saw about ten tower cranes in Seattle. They probably need plumbers!
If you see a tower crane in Seattle, Bellevue & surrounding areas they will "need" plumbers come monday, cause every one of those jobs is manned by Local 32 Plumbers.
Our reps don't get paid.
Some of our reps are paid others are not.
Business manager ( elected) gets paid
Business agents appointed by the BM get paid.
The president, vice president & the executive board are all elected volunteer jobs.
When our local negotiated it's first contract in the late 50's early 60's, the owners asked if the local wanted a coffee break in the contract.
BM said if any of my men take a coffee break, fire them.
yeah, might be a good place to get a job if you don't mind bein a scab.
That union leadership was one of the most shady deals I've ever seen. I haven't belonged to a union since. That's not because I have anything against them. They are a great deal.
Good luck. I'll be pulling for ya bro.
Ghey unicorns????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-VBpLQSPD8&feature=related
Why is the rep still getting paid?Seems like they should be under the same pressure the rest of the people are.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
That has been brought up before many times------- the same answer is always given------ "hey this is when we're workin the hardest for you."
I sit impaled square on the top of the picket fence on this issue. Being a just tad to the left leaning side I see and appreciate all that unions have done and do for the working people and know there history.
But having spent virtually my entire career as non-union and also as a business owner (due more to geographic location and trade than any bias) I also recognize the downsides from an outsiders perspective. I will sit this one out. I do wish you and your union a mutually agreeable settlement though. I meant my earlier post to McDesign a joke. They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 6/1/2008 9:48 pm by dovetail97128
The Wa. state teachers union reps make 6 figures how about yours. Wifes union dues are about $85 a month.
Our standard dues are 28 bucks a month, & our working dues are a buck an hour.
Teachers union rep gets over double the average teachers pay------ yeah that makes sense.
Our basic agents get journeyman pay, Business agents get foremans pay, & our business manager get General foreman pay.
u r sick wayy to much time on your hands!
Sorry you all are out, but good luck with a new contract. My husband was only out once during the years he was in the union, and that was for a short time. The strike was over safety and working conditions mostly, and they finally came to an agreement.
I've heard several people here say it would be a good idea to work 4-10's to help save on fuel. I worked that years ago, and I liked avoiding the traffic jams at least one day a week. My husband said it would just be an excuse for people who have enough money not to worry about gas to take another 3-day weekend and drive more. Still, it would be a break for those who are struggling to pay bills and drive, too!
The time is right for us were are in a serious boom of large work & have a lot of travelers working in our area.
By law we cannot picket a jobsite unless somebody is doing our work, so we have a lot of spies watching our stuff on the jobsite & if someone attempts to do our work a picket will be up in less than an hour.
I always thought that the membership got less than what was fair in our local's contract negotiations. We had a wimpy BA who was a poor negotiator. He also suspected of not only taking money but looking for ways to line his pockets.
My conclusion is that contract negotiations are too important to leave to a bunch of tradesmen who've been elected as union reps but know nothing about that subject.
If you want the best possible deal, you should hire at least one professional negotiator to represent your interests.
Even if he charges a couple grand per meeting, ending up with ten grand for his efforts, when the members get a three year deal worth twice as much as the contractors want to pay, that ten grand would be a drop in the bucket for a local with at least one hundred members. $33/yr per member.
That is a good point.
Good Luck Bill, I hope you get everything you're waiting for
us Electricians have never been allowed to strike for wages !!
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Hope things get straightened out soon. Surprised you can't picket, they do down here during contract strikes. I've lost a couple of weeks pay between the sparkies and tapers over the years. Us carpenters are always happy to settle for that big $1.00 a year, year after year ; ^ )
I just jumped companies 3 weeks ago after 12 years. So good so far. Lots of work in S.F. right now also, working Saturdays last 2 weeks.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
We can picket shops, but not the jobsites------- but for some strange reason my union is not calling for pickets------ boy did they sure drop the ball on this one.
I have overalls, pipewrench, one can of dried up PVC cement , .
Im on my way up to scab;}.
Ok help me just once does water run uphill or down???, I always get tripped up on this one
righty tighty young man
and don't chew your fingernails
Hate to say so, but the whole union / strike concept is ridiculous, and really nothing more than formalized bullying.
Just don't see it.
Forrest - anticipating a wee bit of disagreement
Just a wee bit?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"Bullying" by who the contractors for not wanting to pay or the workers who want too much?
We work under a contract, usually 3 year contract.
We abide by it, & so does the contractors.
We don't work without a contract, so until an agreement is met we don't work 7 contractors don't get jobs accomplished.
Edited 6/1/2008 10:37 pm ET by plumbbill
Oh boy, here we go to the tavern.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Hate to say so, but the whole union / strike concept is ridiculous, and really nothing more than formalized bullying.
Might try reading a little history about unions and what they have done in this country before making such statements.
Doug
Might try reading a little history about unions and what they have done in this country before making such statements.
There was certainly a time when unions provided a much needed benefit to the worker, but it seems that time has long past.
Many companies have REDUCED wages and benefits when their employees unionized. Unions have also put many workers out of jobs - look at the auto industry.
It seems to me that the primary problem is that workers want to make more than the value of their work. They want to make more money, but don't understand that, in general, you cannot sustain an economy where things sell for more than they are worth.
Better to make a fair wage and have a job than make a high wage and have no job.
EDIT: I mistyped "can" instead of "cannot" - I meant to say "you cannot sustain an economy where things sell for more than they are worth."
Edited 6/3/2008 8:06 am ET by woodturner9
I think you'll find that what has undermined the American worker's wages is so called "free trade" with countries who have no unions or any other protection for their working people.
Our trade unions have spoken up against that government policy for years, with little recognition of it's bad effect on working people of all countries by our elected officials.
Until we use the leverage created by our buying power to influence how the people of other countries live and work, we're not doing anything to promote the cause of democracy in those countries.
>I think you'll find that what has undermined the American worker's wages is so called "free trade" with countries who have no unions or any other protection for their working people<
For example: Airlines sending their aircraft to China for their scheduled overhauls. Some aricraft they can fit into a regulary scheduled route carrying passesngers, others they just ferry with no revenue for the flight (consider the costs for the pilots, the fuel, & time on the aircraft). And still be cheaper in China. When I as an airline employee the employer provided insurance, retirement and other benefits. What does the Chinese company (operating under communist government) have to provide by way of benefits?
Yeah, that's fair trade.
Edited 6/2/2008 1:26 pm ET by john7g
Unions have also put many workers out of jobs - look at the auto industry.
Corporate greed. Lazy, over paid, multi layers of management that refused to be competitive with in their own market.
That has caused the auto industry far more than the dirty little union people.
It seems to me that the primary problem is that workers want to make more than the value of their work.
Really?
You think that is the Primary reason the auto industry is in trouble??
Ever worked in a factory? Ever seen how management will pinch penny's at contract time, ( on the backs of the workers ) and let massive waste continue in the manufacturing process even when the workers bring it to their attention?
I suspect you have not spent much time in or around the ground floor of manufacturing.
Yes I'm union and I drive an american made truck
Bill
Unions have also put many workers out of jobs - look at the auto industry.
Corporate greed. Lazy, over paid, multi layers of management that refused to be competitive with in their own market.
It's easy to "blame the other guy", but everyone has their finger in the pie. To really fix this will take everyone's involvement.
That has caused the auto industry far more than the dirty little union people.
It seems to me that the primary problem is that workers want to make more than the value of their work.
Really?
You think that is the Primary reason the auto industry is in trouble??
Yes, it is one of the primary reasons. It doesn't work to pay an autoworker $25 an hour plus benefits when the market says the value of that hour is $15.
Ever worked in a factory? Ever seen how management will pinch penny's at contract time, ( on the backs of the workers ) and let massive waste continue in the manufacturing process even when the workers bring it to their attention?
Yes, I have worked in a factory, and have seen how union workers will escalate costs, slow down work, etc causing massive waste. I even had a grievance filed against me after I helped a union worker after a load fell on him - by that worker. I guess I should have left him to die.
I suspect you have not spent much time in or around the ground floor of manufacturing.
Yep, only about 30 years.
Yes I'm union and I drive an american made truck
I'm curious what truck you drive - would this be a truly American made Toyota, or would this be a foreign made Ford, Chevy, or GM?
It's just not that simple anymore. We live in a world economy. We are a dominant player, but not the only one. The cost of a good, say an egg, has an intrisic value. If local prices are higher, people will figure out how to buy it someplace else.
Heard an interesting view recently. The conventional argument is that outsourcing and offshoring manufacturing is bad. This speakers' researched view was that this is the way we help our brethren in other countries, and is not the problem. His research shows that the problem is that we are not fostering innovation and growth of new technology here, which is what really fuels jobs and security, and has for the last 100 years or so.
woodtunner,
If an auto worker or any other company employee for that matter is getting $25 / hour, and the market say's he's worth $15 / hour, why does the management continue to make a bad business decision?
Why didn't the company pack up and move years ago to get the going market rate of $15 / hour?
Who paid that guy $25 / hour to start with? And is the employee supposed to give back or accept less because his employer makes bad decisions?
Contract after contract management agreed to pay and benefits packages ABOVE market value.
The company is writing checks that eventually they won't be able to cash. That's kind of where we are today.
----- WHY? ----
Short term profits!
I agree it will take every one's involvement to find solutions.
I have seen union terds, non union terds, and management terds in the factory, they exist in all aspects of industry.
It's still a bad business decision to let that condition exist.
Yeah the union protects terds to a certain degree ( and I don't really like that part very much)
But their procedures in place for disciplinary action, and if used correctly they will rid the business of terds!
If our companies are going to out source ( to help people in other countries raise their standard of living ) and also reap larger profit from it, who is going to ensure that they re-invest the windfall to inshore innovation and growth of new technology here in America?
I'll bet you my Chevy pick up truck it's not the over paid assembly line worker who control's where the re-investment goes.
Bill
If an auto worker or any other company employee for that matter is getting $25 / hour, and the market say's he's worth $15 / hour, why does the management continue to make a bad business decision?
Largely, they don't. That's why your "American made chevy" is made in the far east.
Other companies, like Toyota, find that by using non-union labor they can manufacture cost-effectively in the US. That's why many Toyotas are truly "American made" and many traditionally US brands are "foreign made".
Other companies, like Toyota, find that by using non-union labor they can manufacture cost-effectively in the US
I wonder what the pay and benefit difference is for their assembly line people? Maybe $10 / hour?
Yup, non union, cost effective and made in the USA.
Now go look at their management structure. How many layers? How much pay difference compared to Detroit's finest?
And I guarantee you the company is implementing employee suggestions to run more efficiently! Not just going through the motions.
You can bang the union's if it makes you feel good.
But the real money is being wasted by the corporate side of the house
But the real money is being wasted by the corporate side of the house
You can keep saying that if you like - but repetition won't make it true.
I think the problem is that we are using "too broad a brush". I certainly agree that SOME corporations are wasting money on the corporate side of the house. I also agree that SOME unions are causing the problems I referenced, in spite of real effort on the corporate side to fix things.
The problem occurs when we talk about "unions" and "corporations", as if they all behave exactly the same. That is definitely NOT true - it's the business world equivalent of stereotypes.
I wonder what the pay and benefit difference is for their assembly line people? Maybe $10 / hour?
I don't know - what do YOU feel is a fair wage for unskilled labor? FWIW, $10/hour is $20,800 a year, assuming a 40 hour work week. A couple each earning that would be middle class in the US and would be making approximately the average family income. That doesn't sound so bad to me for unskilled labor.
In plumbbill's case, though, he is a skilled plumber with a lot of experience - definitely NOT unskilled labor. He should make more, because he has more valuable skills - and more significantly, skills that the marketplace considers to be more valuable.
The problem occurs when we talk about "unions" and "corporations", as if they all behave exactly the same. That is definitely NOT true - it's the business world equivalent of stereotypes.
Well we are obviously on different sides of the argument but Stereotyping is a fine point.
As far as wages go, it would be tough to live on 20K a year in my area.
And what is the criteria for " unskilled labor "
Granted an assembly line worker is not nearly the same skill level as say a Journeyman or master tradesman, or accountant or ........
But you can believe a modern day assembly line worker ( buddy works for ford ) is expected to be computer literate, able to work several different positions on the line. He is expected to be conscientious and quality driven, and use correct PPE at all times . Also must be able to pass a drug test any day of the week.
While this is not equivalent to a skilled trade, you have to have something on the ball. This fellow and the workers around him are hardly un-skilled.
Not exactly a job for the lowest bidder I.M.H.O.
That's likely the reason he's making a decent wage in the first place, along with being a union member.
Bill
And what is the criteria for " unskilled labor "
That's a good question. The image I had in my mind was the guy who literally pulls a lever at the local blowmolding plant. It requires no skill or training other than "pull this lever when the light turns yellow".
What you described is more what I would consider a technician position than an assembly line worker - very different from what I had in mind.
Your point about different areas is a valid one as well. The averages I cited are nationwide and would apply in most areas - but the regions surrounding something like the 20 largest cities in the US do not fit those norms. I would hate to have to live in NYC or LA on $40K a year - but you can live quite well in Columbus, Wheeling, or Pittsburgh with that level of income.
I don't really get why this is controversial.If there is ever a power differential, inevitably it will be exploited. That is a true fact of history, I would go so far as to say it's probably the only thing you can be sure of, long term.If there were no unions and never had been, we'd all be chattel slaves. I'm sure glad they exist.That doesn't mean that unions are 100% noble and grand. They are organizations like any other and come in good and bad flavors, willing to deal with practical reality to a larger or smaller extent... probably inversely related to the size of the union, which you can also say about companies.But one thing is definite, the stronger the company, the stronger the need for a union. Checks and balances are very important. the nature of capitalism would be to pay your help the minimum that would allow them to come to work fed, rested, and ready to work. in some cases in the past that actually meant the company owned the houses and stores too! the nature of labor unions would be to be guarantee a high standard of living in all areas regardless of the value you bring to the table. Somewhere in the middle lies economic reality. But you don't get there without both sides pushing and pulling a little, right? an open book accounting method and unions with financiers on staff would probably result in very productive situations. Somehow I don't see that happening tomorrow, but hopefully someday.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
The image I had in my mind was the guy who literally pulls a lever at the local blowmolding plant. It requires no skill or training other than "pull this lever when the light turns yellow".
Yeah I forgot about him.
Now THAT guy's job has largely gone away.
It has either been automated, or out sourced to a place the does pay $8 / hour.
Yes, it is one of the primary reasons. It doesn't work to pay an autoworker $25 an hour plus benefits when the market says the value of that hour is $15.
He's worth $15 according to who? You? What's your experience/qualifications and profession that you'd know this? And don't tell me you spent 30 years on the floor and that qualifies ya! I've spent the last 39 years driving but that don't qualify me to work on the combustion engine.
Got any info on that life you saved and the grievance that followed, I'd like to take a look at that if you have time to dig it up, sounds pretty interesting. I'd think there would be some paper work from all that action.
Oh, BTW, I do know the history of the union so no need for me to go back and re-read.
Doug
My BIL works the line in Detroit. He's worth $8 per hour MAX....
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Well we all have a BIL like that!
Doug
i got a brother like that, but nevermind that. i am much more concerned with overpaid IMO CEO's CFO's etc.
Ive often thought I could do that job. I bet all the money I can earn while I'm doing it that if I could get the job I could BS my way through. Does that mean I'm worth it?
CEOs CFOs and such have earned their postition and have th right to be paid accordingly.
Edited 6/3/2008 9:37 pm ET by Doobz26
Just like the guys out on the floor!
Roflamaomuch more humor like that and they will move this to the tavern...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
i went back and read it again, totally over my head. i just don't get it. is he referring to the guys working the floor in assembly line auto prod?
since when was that job all that overpaid? or was he being facetious?
this is a union thread, how about a story about a local union's idea to win more union work for their craft.
the whole idea is based on the opposite of lowering wages to compete with non union entities. in fact the local union decides to try to subsidize union contractors so that union contractors can be low bidders (undercutting the cheap non union contractor) and get the work.
the idea is that the guys will go to work for the union contractor, and be happy with the better wages,benies, and being treated like humans. do you think the work force will try hard to make it work long term by working together to be more productive and profitable for the contractor so they can stay working union?
imagine if there were opportunities to make even more than what the guys on the line make now, but it won't last long if you don't make a better product. how hard would the people try to prove their worth and make the best product they could?
after a few people have had a chance to weigh in i will update you on the results of this little experiment.
Communist!.
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
am not!
I am aware of that tactic being used, but don't know anything about how well it actually works out. Be interested in hearing the story ending.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
piledrivers local 34 in san francisco has jurisdiction over northern cali, northern neveada, and utah. the name is piledrivers, divers, carpenters, bridge wharf and dock builders. they do a lot of heavy highway type work, and it was in preparation for the winter olympics of 2002 in Utah that the state of Utah (with some fed money) was looking to upgrade the roads to the ski resorts, wider, new bridges, etc.
this was in the late 90's when this was proposed, and it targeted work in a "right to work state" and in particular one ratty contractor who was used to pretty much having things his way. it was proposed to use local 34's money to do this, (the coffers were getting pretty full as the union was having great success in cali by catering to the contractors. a very pragmatic union, they realized if they didn't work efficiently the contractors wouldn't make money and the union would cease to exist)
this whole idea of subsidizing the union contractors in utah to get the work union was larry wagners idea. his grandfather jack wagner was instrumental in the union movement on the west coast in the thirties. it was voted on and approved by the members but before it could be implemented international president douglas mc carron decided it was time to reorganize the international brotherhood of carpenters and joiners of america.
local 34 was taken into receivership and their funds were frozen by the international. we fought it in court and got all the up to the 8th circuit before we lost. we lost the ability to elect our own business agents, and the plan was killed before it even got started. douglas mc carron by the way is also on the board of directors of several large construction companies. i can't say for a fact that corruption was involved, but if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, its probably a duck.
the elected officers of local 34 were promised lifetime jobs complete with double pension if they got the rank and file members of 34 to accept this reorganization. all four of the paid officers (business agents and financial secretary) resigned their postions and put on a tool belt to rejoin the rank and file in the field. some of us left that union for good, the ultimate strike, permanently withholding our labor. nevermind that we were throwing away pensions and benefits, it was the principle involved, we would not be members of a corrupt union that would try to control its members like a giant corporation, and even withdraw from the AFL/CIO. yours truly is in this latter group, i resigned an unpaid office, and withdrew.
Thank You for the history of the situation.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
you are welcome, its to bad we didn't get a chance to see how it would have worked. it made sense to try something other than just to accept contracts for lower wages, because even as the carpenters accepted lower wage rate contracts they still lost work to the non union, very heavily in residential.
i am actually old enough to have been a union residential framer apprentice. we had classes and everything, of course it didn't last and i had to change crafts and locations to work union, which i only did because benies and a family. needed the health insurance.
no complaints though, every time i got a diferent job working a different craft i learned something. many times it was a struggle to make the transition, had to work extra hard now i'm used to that and the diversity pays off big time on every job.
There are some unions here that use the "buy down" system, don't know if the carps do or not. Kudos on sticking with your principles, tough to do sometimes and the cost often is high. I have paid my share dues in that area . They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 6/5/2008 3:01 pm by dovetail97128
thanks i needed that. yes the cost can be very high, i often wonder if i did the right thing.
those life changing things certainly cause growth.
what is the "buy down" system? i haven't heard of that.
"Buy down" is the term I have heard for exactly what you were talking about. The union "buys down" the cost of the job to the contractor by subsidizing it .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We do that.
We call it "work recovery".
The idea is that we the union members pay into a fund that union contractors apply for, if they get it they can recieve so much per hour worked.
The hours have to be documented & signed for by the employees.
In order to apply the contractors have to show that non union is bidding on the work as well.
Some jobs per state regulations are very hard for us to compete on.
Mixed use low rise buildings are the ones, per state law you don't have to have a commercial license above the first floor, so it's almost impossible to compete with commercial licensed plumbers against residential licensed plumbers.
I think doobz has to lay off the doobs....he was defending the ceos etc.you know the guys who will fail to lead a company with any vision or principal and then when times get tight they will lay off the working stiffs and collect a fat bonus for making the company profitable....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
yes thank you. i thought that is what was happening, i don't feel bad for the fat cat CEO's etc.
You're worth what you can negotiate.
Last I heard there were 2 parties signatures on contracts, company's and union's, both have to agree to sign. Both know the game when they walk away from the table. Company knows what their labor costs will be for the next few years (life of the contract). That particular aspect seems advantageous to a business.
He's worth $15 according to who?
The market. Say a car sells for $20,000. Starting with that selling price, knowing the costs of manufacturer, you can work backwards to calculate the retail value of an hour of a particular worker's labor. A lot more info is available in the industrial engineering literature, but that's a simple explanation.
What's your experience/qualifications and profession that you'd know this?
Thirty years experience designing and costing products in various industries (including autos)
I do know the history of the union so no need for me to go back and re-read.
Much of what you have read likely has a "spin". You may want to try to find some more objective sources if you want to truly understand the history of unions and business.
Much of what you have read likely has a "spin". You may want to try to find some more objective sources if you want to truly understand the history of unions and business.
Do you read what you type!
Pretty sure you have no idea of where I got the info on unions but maybe you're right, hell I'll just forget all I know on the subject and just listen to what you say, you seam to think you're the only one on here that has any idea why/how the unions came about and whether or not they served any purpose, well, you and McDesign!
Doug
Pretty sure you have no idea of where I got the info on unions but maybe you're right
I assume you are basing your views on what you were taught in school and what you read in the popular press and media, both of which are significantly distorted. From your comments, it appears you likely have not "dug further" to find less biased sources. For example, what have you read on the Homestead riots? If you haven't read in depth about the Homestead riots, it seems unlikely you could have the "full story".
One book you might find interesting. I found it fascinating - and it explains a lot of the issues in the world today.
"Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong is a 1995 book by James Loewen. It critically examines twelve popular American history textbooks and concludes that textbook authors propagate factually false, eurocentric, and mythologized views of history. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me
Edited 6/5/2008 8:21 am ET by woodturner9
Edited 6/5/2008 8:23 am ET by woodturner9
""For example, what have you read on the Homestead riots?"" If you wouldn't mind how about a brief synopsis of what your view of this event is.
No time this morning to read the book and can't find any online references to Loewen's take on it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
""For example, what have you read on the Homestead riots?""
If you wouldn't mind how about a brief synopsis of what your view of this event is.
Hard to do a brief synopsis on that subject without missing important points. Briefly, though, "history" generally portrays those events as the "evil business owner" oppressing the workers. The reality was far different - Frick was actually fairly progressive in his treatment of the workers (e.g. he gave them a half day off on Saturday, unheard of at the time). The instigators of the riot were outsiders who had no direct involvement in the events at all. One theory is that the opposing mill owners instigated the riots to get back at Frick for being too progressive.
It's really rather complicated, and it's tough to find verifiable, objective information.
Thank You.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The wikipedia descriptions of the events is also interesting and may provide some more background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike
Interesting link here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression But in general I read nothing that I haven't already been aware of. To me it was a culmination of years of the two sides being unable to see a common goal and that situation coming to a boiling point. Both parties bear burden in the outcome, but I will note that the real winners were the owners, not the working class. This working class loss of power then spread and became the norm until after WW11 in this country.
I did not find anything that shows me that the unions were being unreasonable or trying to put the owners out of business, all i see is the worker trying to enlarge their share of the total pie at th expense of what IMO were excessive profits made of the backs of the workers. Did Carnegie really need to accumulate all his wealth or was it a function of greed on his part?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I did not find anything that shows me that the unions were being unreasonable or trying to put the owners out of business
The unions suffered after the Homestead riots BECAUSE of their misconduct - they lost popular support, and the workers would no longer participate.
The strikers fired on the security men, and killed several. That's inappropriate behavior, and several of the union leaders served time for their crimes.
As a result of these crimes, the union lost popular support.
It's not appropriate to use force in a strike - and non-violent striking is far more effective. Think how things might be different today if the Homestead strike had been non-violent.
I agree that, in principal, an organization like a union that represents the interests of the worker is a good thing. However, like communism, the problem occurs when humans try to implement the ideal. I can tell you many stories of folks threatened with "accidents" if they don't join the union, exhorbitant union dues that fund criminal activities, etc. Sadly, that is the image (and sometimes reality) of unions today. I think that's why so many people are anti-union.
Ah. Ok Now I understand your original post. I had understood your post to mean that the unions had made unfair requests.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sadly, that is the image (and sometimes reality) of unions today. I think that's why so many people are anti-union.
I hate even responding to this because you're pretty closed minded regarding the unions and what they have done but that statement may in some ways true but certainly its not the blanket statement that you're trying to make it.
Some of the same things that your accusing the unions of are also true of the companies that your defending.
And please don't start that "you got your information from history books in high school" because its also not true.
Doug
but that statement may in some ways true but certainly its not the blanket statement that you're trying to make it.
The basis for those comments are published surveys and studies regarding worker's attitudes about unions and companies. 83% of workers do not support unions, and 17% of workers are represented by unions.
Having said that, union representation is far more common in the construction trades than other industries, which may give a significantly different annecdotal impression depending on your field.
And please don't start that "you got your information from history books in high school" because its also not true.
Yes, I have noticed you are pretty closed minded regarding truth :-) If you aren't getting your information from the media and public schools, where are you getting your information? I'm curious if you have found some other source of objective information.
Wood
I've read some of the stuf that you posted but not all and I will take a look at it.
I have never said that all unions are good and have always done good deeds, we all know thats not the case but to make a blanket statement that unions are evil is also not at all close to the truth.
thanks for the links and other info, I'll give it a good looksee.
Doug
well it seems to ME that the primary problem is that management wants to make tenfold the value of their "work".
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Woodturner
Sounds like you and McDesign learned history at the same school!
Better go back and re-read it cause you missed a lot of the important parts.
Doug
Better go back and re-read it cause you missed a lot of the important parts.
Sorry, but no. History is clear, if you are willing to take the time and effort to learn. And it is NOT what you appear to think it is.
Unions have also put many workers out of jobs - look at the auto industry.
I think improved productivity had more to do with it than any union issue. It takes a lot fewer labor hours to produce a car, a ton of steel or a bushel of corn than it used to.
It takes a lot fewer labor hours to produce a car, a ton of steel or a bushel of corn than it used to.
Absolutely - but sales volume has also increased, offsetting the reduced manufacturing time.
cannot sustain an economy where things sell for more than they are worth.
Sure you can...all it takes it people who have way more money than sense. We've been sustaining this economy selling overpriced SUV's, luxury cars, and 5000 square foot houses that aren't worth half what they sell for. As long as people have money to throw away, they're happy to forget about everything else.
And the auto industry didn't fail because of unions...they failed because they didn't pay attention to their market!
cannot sustain an economy where things sell for more than they are worth.
Sure you can...all it takes it people who have way more money than sense.
Which is exactly why you can't sustain that economy. People have to make money to have money to buy the goods. If things sell for more than they are worth, the workers can't make enough to buy the overpriced goods they need.
You can do it for a short period, but not long term.
I agree. However, while I'm cutting groceries to buy gas, I still see lots of people here with money to spend on whatever they want, whatever it costs. Maybe it's just where I live now. I'ts much different that the midwest where I grew up.
I'm afraid that the economy that can't be sustained is the one belonging to my income group. Everyone else's higher upseems to be getting along, even if a little slower.
What I forsee is that we won't be able to afford to get to work or pay the power bill, while the people in higher income brackets just take one less vacation a year.
However, while I'm cutting groceries to buy gas, I still see lots of people here with money to spend on whatever they want, whatever it costs. Maybe it's just where I live now. I'ts much different that the midwest where I grew up.
I see that happening in the midwest as well. I don't get it - where are they getting all that money? During the 2003 recession, when it seemed EVERYONE was getting laid off around here, builders were selling $700K houses easily, in a market were $100K will buy a nice home in a decent area. Never could figure that one out.
The rich are getting richer, I'm sure you've heard that before. And they have rich kids coming of adult age so they get money handed down.
Everytime a manufacturing plant shuts down and goes overseas it makes the people at the top of that company more money while all the layed-off workers get poorer.
Ironically, it makes the worker in China richer too.
Everytime we buy a product made overseas when there's a USA made version of that product available we're screwing a middle class worker while making more money for the CEO and foreign worker..
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"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Everytime we buy a product made overseas when there's a USA made version of that product available we're screwing a middle class worker while making more money for the CEO and foreign worker.
You would think - but economics is far, far more complicated than that.
How do you know the product you are buying is US made? Very little is US made anymore, except for some of the foreign brands, ironically.
The 1980 Plymouth Horizon was the poster child for the worst US made products. Were it not for outsourcing and foreign competition, US brands might still not be making a usable car. Of course, virtually every car sold by the US brands is foreign made, while the foreign brand cars are often US made. Go figure...
When a US company outsources labor (like low skill level manufacturing labor), it can expand it's operations and create better, higher paying jobs for that middle class worker.
It's popular to think that outsourcing is the problem, but it's really not. If you read papers by economists, they will explain this far better than I can here.
The real problem is that we are not innovating new products and markets - which is what really drives growth and the creation of better jobs. It's the short -term mentality that is killing us - thank Jack Welch for that one.
But every time someone in Mexico gets a job there because Americans buy products made in Mexico, it is one less Mexican trying to sneak into America.It is GREAT that people in foreign countries are better off because Americans buy products from them. Almost everyone wins. Americans get lower prices and foreign workers get jobs they didn't have before.We just have to figure out a good way to take care of American workers, without penalizing American consumers or foreign workers. No easy task, but far better to do this than punish both foreign workers and American consumers.
Yeah, where does everyone get that money??
Around here it's working for the gov...I don't know anyone working for any of the gov entities or gov contractors who's worried about money around here.
Now we're getting in a bunch of people from other states who can buy those big $700K and above houses in addition to keeping their current one if they like. This used to be a nice, working class area, but it's looking more like yuppieville all the time here.
10 years ago you could get a simple, but decent, house here for about $120K. Now those same houses start at $220K. The new ones for $100 to $120 look like army barracks and the older ones are falling apart. We couldn't move if we wanted to, which is especially frustrating because for the first time in our lives, we really need to.
Maybe I just overlooked the money-tree seeds at the garden center!
Theres not many of us here that live in the South.
You get to reading what they write here and they are in cities like Boston or expensive areas . People that do this type work and have computers used to be the people making the better share of money. Sometime look at the breaktimers map and that will tell you a whole lot .
All that money they make isnt all that grand though. I normally post the cheapest building prices in here . Well that means the people doing the work dont make a lot of money but they get a whole lot more for their money. I know carps on here that are living in less than 1,000 sq ft making what seams to be really good money. Thats because building prices are so high they cant afford 4,000 ft.
My wife and I have been talking about mobile home rentals . We checked the prices . 24,000 for a 12 x50. Thats 600 sq ft that will go down in value . Its odd I can build apartments for the same price per foot . [40.00 per sq ft] Thats my cost and not drawing a check doing it but most all subs getting paid.
Some people are paying 1,000 per month for that on here. Here a 1,000 per month would make payments on a 1500 sq ft home. Mebbe more , depends.
So its not all the same when ya hear the money they are making .
They are making a better living but dont have a better life . We know that too. They will probably want to retire where we live . We dont have to wait .
Tim
There seem to be pockets of money here in the south.
Watching the House Hunters in HGTV and was amazed by how low some of the home prices were in many areas. HSV was like that when we first moved here, but with the influx of people recently, prices have gone up because most of the newcomers have way more income than is usual for this area.
How anyone lives in California or DC or New York, I can't feature. There's no way we could make a mortgage payment with nothing down on a $400K house, and that's cheap in those areas.
I keep thinking that eventually gas prices and housing will have to come down to a level that people can actually afford, but I don't see that happening. People just seem to be getting more money...
Here is a letter to the editor in our local paper, talking about naive.
A good solution to increase in food and gas prices
Matthew McLean, Candler • published June 15, 2008 12:15 am
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I think business should give employees cost of living raises and government should give people on Social Security increases based on the effect the percentage of their cost of living increases. If everything would adjust equal to the percentage of increase of these two areas, it would neutralize the damage. Even with people getting food stamps they could get an adjustment on their amount.
A very small increase in each tax area would help finance this, or even use one percent of lottery income.
Read the comment and comments thereon...don't think anyone has a solution.
I can't imagine anyone these days getting a cost of living raise...
The person who said you get raises when you are more productive is living in his own little world. Americans are still the most productive workers in the world; but, many will wait years for a raise or have to change jobs to get one. Many, like me, will see their household incomes fall because of higher prices and lower wages, requiring an additional job to make ends meet.
I don't have a solution. One thing I do know is that the answer is not wholly in the domain of either Republicans or Democrats. If we don't stop harping at each other at some point, we're just going to stagnate in this mess.
McDesign,
I am looking forward to being a republican in public again and pretty capitalist at heart. I am not pro union, I think unions are an evil created to combat an evil. Without a trade union, as a carpenter, I would be worth 14 to 17 dollars an hour. The capitalist in me says, well then that's all you're worth. Then the capitalist in me looks at what is being charged for the house I can frame. That bridge I just built. The twenty thousand yards of concrete into another hi-rise condo. Should my wage be proportional to what I produce? How can I walk into a super's office and say that and be taken seriously? Do I deserve healthcare? Should that be provided by my employer or the government or a pay as you go sort of thing? I do not like the entitlement disease infecting America, but I also loathe the way our current medical system distributes the cost of doing business. Big business has bullies and liars. The government has bullies and liars. Unfortunately, us grunty mens gotta get us some bullies and liars. I believe frimly in an honest days work for an honest days pay and look forward to the day when that is in my hands. I have seen enough to know that Unions do accidentally sometimes help and not having unions would be another heavy blow to a country with an already struggling middle class.
Hate to say so, but the whole union / strike concept is ridiculous, and really nothing more than formalized bullying.
When I'm ignorant about the history of certain adversarial relationships I begin by asking questions, rather than showing my ignorance by offering a poorly informed opinion.
Well, maybe when you get fired for refusing to do a job without proper safety procedures in place, you'll want someone on your side.
Employers can bully, too, you know.
well you found my button !!it's not your problem anyway.so why not just shut up
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I like your picture on your profile!
Forrest
almost forgot.
now this strike will free you up to take that plumbing problem on the shuttle
just charge half price cuz you got the strike pay coming in
Will he get travel time and per diem?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Prevailing wage.
I wonder what jurisdiction that would be in .
I'm on strike too! I refuse to work without a customer!
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Good luck, and hope your strike doesn't last very long and that you get what you guys are hoping for. I'm a United Steel Worker, local 1190. I really hate to see strikes. I believe that sometimes they are necessary, and I definately would never cross anyones picket line...but in the past in our area, strikes never worked out...course our leadership was not up to par aginst the company lawyers.
First strike I was in only lasted 2 days, and we got a small bump in wages plus a $2,000 signing bonus...that was a good strike!
Years later 1996-97...we were out 335 days. When we returned, we got less than what we initially went out on strike for. Retirees made out..they recieved a higher "multiplier" ( It went from $20 for every year of service to $40 per year) plus they received cash buyouts in addition to the pension.
All those too young to retire lost their total pension plan which had been set up like an IRA and the average amount per employee at that time was around $30,000. The years of service to become eligible for retirement increased, and on top of that, we took a 15% cut in actual wages! A few guys committed suicide...that was a bad strike.
Just down the road, Ormet ( an aluminum smelter plant with several thousand employees) went on strike a few years back. Strike lasted over 2 years, and not everyone ever got to go back to work...part of the plant was permanently shut down. Wages were reduced as well.
When we were on strike, we picketed various entry points to our mill. However, we were under court order to let trucks and scabs pass thru. For the most part, the company housed the bosses on the premises and they did our jobs... though not very well. After we returned from the strike, the mill had been run so badly that it took years and millions of dollars to fix all the machinery that the bosses had ran into the ground. A lot of bosses actually quit halfway thru the strike and sought jobs with other steel companies. At picket sites, some street lights got shot out, glass covered the road, we formed lines to keep trucks out, but our leaders insisted we not do any bodily harm to incoming drivers and personnel. We let trucks in and out...now I ask you...is that any way to run a strike? Heck no!
While out on strike, every worker received $115 per week from the Union. About 6 months later, courts came to our rescue, declared the strike a "lock-out" and awarded us unemployment benefits..which helped greatly.
One thing Plumbill, at least you guys got enough smarts to strike in the summer months. Us dumba**es went out in October. We froze our butts off all winter on the lines!
In Southern WV, coal mine country...you try to cross a picket line, and it will almost definately be your funeral. Those boys shoot straight, too!
Local 1190 may be striking again...our contract expires this September, another company, a Russian Steel Co. wants to buy us...and already parts of our plant are scheduled for permanent shut downs. We are supposed to lose fromm 1100 to 1500 jobs...OUCH! Times are definately tough here in the Ohio Valley.
Davo.
we not do any bodily harm to incoming drivers and personnel. We let trucks in and out...now I ask you...is that any way to run a strike? Heck no!
So are you saying that you should hve done bodily harm?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
My union management was shocked that we voted down the offer.
Some of the union management decided to yell at the rank & file members about how serious a strike is.
I'm UAW 1069 out of Boeing, it sounds like only the names change.
every 3 years we get "warned" how bad a strike is, and how some guy's live pay check to pay check and can't afford to go out.
Our Union officials have been rolling over at contract time for years now.
We just had elections and voted in a new cast of characters, our current contract is up Sept 09, wee shall see....
Hope your strike is short and you guy's get a decent contract,
Bill
Good luck, Bill, hope you guys get what you need.
I was UFCW when I was in college, working at Kroger. At that time, Cincinatti had laden Kroger with a huge amount of debt to make it unattractive to a takeover bid. When the contract was up, the bastiches had the ballz to tell us that Kroger was too debt ridden to pay what we demanded.
We told them that we'd still be stocking when management was sitting on their azzes in the unemployment office. Got most of what we asked for.
So you are fishing now?
Impossible is an opinion.
I wish, picked up some items that are keeping me real busy at the moment.
Interesting.
I gotta say I think I would vote to accept the terms. I dont walk in your shoes so I am just looking at it from my perspective.
I never carried a card, had less than 20 hours of dealings with Unions in my whole career (always residential in suburbs and no union interest or tie ins out there)
I run my own business.
I would like to raise my prices to get some $$ back for fuel but the market wont allow it in most instances right now. It is fiercly competetive right now and most everyone is getting 3+ bids on each project. When I can develop a relationship with someone and I am close to the most competetive bid, I usually get the job.
If I knew that I could get 6% increases per year, I think I would be thrilled. With that said, because I dont have a contract (other than each project that I do which might last for 1-5 months) I get to bid to the market in 6 months and it might be 20% higher than the current market. (which would be much better than 6%)
Dont mistake what I am saying, I respect you standing your ground and even thinking out of the box (4x10's is a great idea and I think would be awesome. I might consider it if I can get away with it)
Good Luck
Our last contract saw an average of 1.7% increase in the package while inflation averaged over 3%.
This year the inflation average is over 4%, so asking for 4% won't make us greedy or rich, but it will give us equal buying power at the end of the contract as it does today.
We have a vote tomorrow morning------ it will probably pass with the 10 cents added on, but it won't keep up with inflation.
I will divert back to your other ideas. Lets all work smarter, not harder. 4x10's.
Just think about the Friday traffic that would go away also, besides the fuel costs/parking/wear and tear/etc.
Good luck with the vote Bill.
Hope you get a good solid contract.
Ratification day can be a little stressful
Jeff that was well put .
None of us are making what we were making .
Most companies are making less .
Everyone is paying more . Theres less money period.
Tim
I have caved in to your demands and i am willing to settle
Well it's about time.
That will cost you info on the Wilson & Trask rivers for the fall king run.
Strike ended last wed---- I knew it would.
Unions that never go on strike don't have any teeth. At all. They only work when weight is thrown around from time to time.
Been a card carrying vested Union Carpenter out of 2361 in So Cal since 93' not once have they struck the wages keep going up. The market share keeps going down. Outside of prevailing wage work. The union lose market share every year. I don't know a B/A that doesn't get 2 pensions and drives around in a new vehicle every couple years.In my mind unions have outlived their usefulness.True they are some talented non- union installers and some unions members that toe the line and do just enough to get by.ML