Not really looking for advice here just letting some non-pros know that it isn’t really so easy even a cave man could do it, and maybe provoking some thought in some sub-contractors. OK – it’s a whine too….
Siding guys finished up Hardie siding this past Thursday, so, I have painter scheduled for (this past) Friday to start the exterior paint job, roofer scheduled for Monday afternoon, insulation on Tuesday, etc, etc. Painter calls me Friday and tells me they are going to caulk that day and then spray the trim on Saturday (yesterday) and do a first coat on the siding. I say “OK great”. Yesterday after noon I check my voice mail and I have a 7:30 AM stressed-out call from the painter “How come the roofers are here?” (early). I had told both the roofing company owner and the roofing crew leader Monday. BTW – both painter and roofer are running ~8 man crews so stuff happens in a hurry.
By the time I got the message it is too late. Roofers are done with roof and now the painter has to either hand brush or use a paint shield or mask all the soffits, facscia and other sidewall areas that are directly adjacent to roof areas, or otherwise paint will get all over the new roof. They normally spray the trim twice and brush one later.
In a word the roofers hosed the painters by showing up early.
Now me, being the builder (superintendent) I have to act as the referee. If painter wants more $ and I backcharge roofer he will likely get pi$$ed and just overcharge me someplace else…. or maybe start giving me cr@ppy service, like showing up 3 or 4 days late and not responding quickly to my callbacks. These are both good subs, and I don’t want to loose either one. Roofer has been with me for around 4 years and painter is new – 6 months but is much more dependable than the last one I had.
I’m fairly sure the roofing boss probably didn’t even know this happened, but as far as I’m concerned the roofers were just being selfish…. I’m sure they are not that dumb. I can see no way that having the house painted before they get there will make their job harder or easier.
So, I get the pleasure of making a nasty phone call tomorrow (Monday) morning.
Right now I have 2 ideas: 1) tell the painter to send the roofer a bill (I supply the address and tell the roofer it’s coming) or 2) tell the roofer to send a few guys to cut strips of roofing felt maybe 6″ wide and tuck it up under the edge of the roof all around the edges, and then come back later to remove it later.
Besides all that, there is no way the job is gonna come out as good as it would have, and now the painters have to set up ladders, etc on the lower (completed) roofs which are gonna damage the roof surface. Just to add a little icing on the cake I had just put the homebuyer’s feet to the fire to make up his mind on the exterior paint colors telling him that the house had to be painted before the roof goes on and we need to get the house fully dried-in ASAP. He gave me the colors this past Thursday.
Oh – and BTW – everything is the builder’s fault….
Replies
Dealing with all that is why you get the big bucks. :o)
Doesn't the roofer normally tell you when they are about to start? It's presumptuous and arrogant to expect that they can show up early. A simple phone call could have avoided this.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
>> Doesn't the roofer normally tell you when they are about to start? <<
NO - I schedule a sub or he tells me when he can be there and hope that if they are not going to show up they will call me. I'd say 50% of the time - at the most - they will. I'm usually on site so pretty much know what's going on, but have been trying to stop working Saturdays too since I already work 10-11 hrs on week days.
I think part of the whole new construction atmosphere is that people feel like they can act irresponsible and it's OK. What really kills me is when salesmen and office support people act like this.
Me - If I'm gonna be more than 10 minutes late I call. I'm too busy to be more than a few minutes early anything...
Oh - and when I make the Monday morning phone call to the roofer I have to be nice.
I just wish the painter had of told the roofers to leave!
Been there too many times.
Super for years and then manager.
Roofers messed up. You need to be respectful to the roofer (not nice) but clear that they came a day early and the paint company who was scheduled to be there had to pull off.
Tell him that cost the paint company money just in the trip and now in the brushing instead of spray.
He needs to know cause-effect and the effect is significant.
If he pushes back, ask him how he would handle it if he showed up and you had something going on that prevented him from being successful.
Let him provide some ideas for resolution with the painter.
I worked in Raleigh for 1 year back in 89. I dont miss it.
Contractors are still the same if you get a call 50% of the time that they are behind schedule. That drove me NUTS. I'd be firing them and hiring another till I found someone who worked well with me. (dont need to do that here cause the folks I work with take good care of me and I take good care of them)
win-win
As the old super told me when I was a very green one:
Your job position is being the narrow place in an hour glass filled with shidd. Someone else has control over how often it gets turned over but you are guaranteed to be either standing in it or having it falling on your head.
Welcome to the party. There is no "win win" .
But since the brushed paint job is better, the owners win out
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To me sprayed and then brushed is best. And, paint will get on the roof and there will be ladder damage.
Edited 7/27/2008 2:43 pm ET by Matt
Not trying to argue, but here is how I see it - "paint will get on the roof "The standard nationwide is for painters to use dropclothe and masking to protect and control where they get their paint.Obviously you have a system localized where you can save them a little work WHEN THINGS GO RIGHT.But if the paint sub is only going to make money when things go right, there is something else wrong with the local system. He is bidding too tight and painting himself into a corner. No sense passing that problem onto somebody else.I am familiar with the concept you are using this for point of discussion on though.
One example I had was where I needed some BIBB blanket in an area first, then the AC ducting before finishing the full BIBBs job.both subs knew how critical to get it right and the insulators were scheduled for tuesday start with the Ducting guys to start Thursday.both showed up same time on Wednesday!I noticed they were both grumbling about being ion each other's way, same space and same time, so I said, you start assembling ducts over there on that end to get ready while these guys start insulating over here, then tomorrow you can come over here and start installing the duct you have assembled behind them as they go. Meanwhile you can both quit beechin since you both ignored the scedule that was set up for you both.They got along and gotter dun
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Piffin
Here is something I really didn't know. Brushed paint is superior to sprayed paint? Why?
Does that apply to pros and amatures alike? I mean I'm a lousy painter and except that I work really cheap I'd fire my butt in a nano second if I could afford to.. Lately I brush everything I can simply because the time spent cleaning the spray equipment makes the smaller jobs that I tend to be doing less time consuming..
Hi Frenchy,I'm not the oracle, but here is my experience. Brushed paint seems to adhere better than sprayed paint on exterior woodwork. I think that the brushing action forces the paint into a more intimate bond with the fibers and micro pockets of the wood tissue than spraying does. (The effect must be the same indoors, but the issues with adhesion are so much less that it is less of a factor indoors, IMO.) Roller work on interior walls/ceilings shows a similar effect as compared with spraying. A painter friend years ago said that the roller smooshes the paint into the wall, and that this creates a better job than spraying alone does. That effect, plus the pleasing texture, are two good reasons to backroll a spray job.Bill
Thanks Bill
I'd never considered that.. I've sprayed a lot because when I brush I wind up with a mess.
I always spray overhead because I'm sick and tired of paint running down my armpit and causing my shirt to stick.. (don't you hate pulling shirts off when they are dried and the hair pulls off?) {especially armpit hair} <big grin>
I think additionally that when rolling interior surfaces, there is always some dust that interferes with bonds when sprayed, but when rolled, it gets mixed into the paint right there on the surface.
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Exactly. The dust factor is huge on new drywall work, even if carefully damp-wiped.Bill
I prep by waiting till end of day when everyone leaves.
Then I open windows and turn on my air cleaner, and use either the compressor or the eject side of the vacumn with a small nozzle to blow the dust off the walls and ceiling. The result is a cloud you simply cannot see thru more than 4-5 feet, but it is gone in 10-15 minutes. Most picked up by the cleaner with some settled to the floor, but still end up with a little back on the walls.
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Because the mechanical action of the bristles is beating the paint into the wood. With sprayed. the tiny atomized capsules of paint lay atop one another, sometimes with molecules of air in between. brushed bonds better to the wood because it combines this mechanical bond with a chemical bond.
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Piffin
Thank you for that.. I'd assumed since I can spray neater than I can brush the opposite was the case..
Some guys spray it on and then back-brush it.
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Tell the painters to stop whining and be glad you're ahead of schedule
wouldn't hold on anyone's pay, #### happens.
painted for years and very seldom had the option of an unshingled house...don't remember it affecting the quality of my work. Maybe save some time, but would probably be offset by touching up after the roofers, gutter hangers and drywallers...probably more
right.Been a long time since I was a sub on tight sceduling like this, but you just buck up and go on with it.Snafus happen, but complainers never get any glory or praise.
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Usually I'm not on that tight of a schedule either. I'm building 3 there right now and I'm trying to catch this one up to the other 2. Having them all at the roughly the same spot in the schedule helps me, not to mention I gotta listen to "when is it gonna be done? When is it gonna be done?". This one got behind because the home buyer decided he wanted 2 more windows at a point when windows were already in. The 2 windows had to be ordered which took 2.5 weeks.
Here is how you address the "when am I gonna be in"
Look, I can build you a house in about 30 days, but you will have to get on your hands and knees and crawl thru the front door it will be installed so crooked. Give me the time to build it right and I will.
And regarding the delay due to the client. Be straight with them and tell them that their home will be 2 1/2 weeks delayed due to the window change.
BTW. I hope the office knew that there would be a delay and captured the money to carry the house for an extra 2 1/2 weeks.
If not, shame on them and I hope you make money.
It's not really that big a deal....
When I talked to him yesterday afternoon the painter really didn't say that much and ended with "we can work with it". Really though I think his pricing was partially based on the roof not being in place.
I still need to at least the roofer know. As stupid as it may sound, I actually care about my subs. The way I look at it, if I look out for them, they'll look out for me.
Many times though I don't understand why they don't talk to each other... If I were the painter I would have "handled it". I guess though a lot of times it is just "I was here first". Same as an office job - whoever gets there first gets the parking place closest to the building...
As I said in my .1 post - the purpose of this thread is to give some of the non-pros a view into "a day in the life".
This is pretty much every day stuff... or at least every week.
Next time, tell the roofer that you had scheduled them in the sequence you did, for a reason and that if they'll be going ahead of schedule, that you want to be notified.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
<It's not really that big a deal....>Didn't figure it was..sometimes a guy needs to vent.<As stupid as it may sound, I actually care about my subs. >why would that sound stupid? You wouldn't be the Lone Ranger. <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
I don't think people whine/bitch enough, that's why most new work seems to be of questionable quality. It is too bad the painter didn't tell the roofer to leave the site. 3 bathrooms ago I went thru 3 plumbers, EVERYONE has a cell phone USE IT, if you don't communicate with me, you will NOT work on my site. I respect you and expect the same in return, my time is just as important as ANYONE's.
PelipethI don't think there's any correlation between whining and quality...some of the best craftsman I know were whiners and vice versa. whining and bitching very seldom accomplishes anything in my viewmy current background is remodeling and this kind of thing happens and can usually be worked around when everyone works as a team. To me that is the key. Just as common as subs showing up early is the GC asking them to back the schedule upWe are hearing one side of a multiple sided story. Perhaps the roofer thought he was doing the GC a solid.personally I prefer a jobsite to be a no whining zone...than reality sets in. <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
"Perhaps the roofer thought he was doing the GC a solid."Way back when I was a roofing sub, that would have been my view. I'd a been proud for getting to it early, since the sun was shining and rain was in the forecast next week."some of the best craftsman I know were whiners"Yeah, we call them Prima Dona`s
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<Yeah, we call them Prima Dona`s>yep, it's usually a matter if I can stand the whining long enough to get the qualityguess that's why they sometimes call it babysitting
Barry E-Remodeler
LOL
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I'm not involved in building the entire box, remodeling, and almost always in the existing footprint. Therefore I obviously don't encounter alot of the issues you speak of, but when someone doesn't DO or BE, something or somewhere, it COSTS someone $$$$$. Usually me and I don't build into my prices $$$$$$$ cause I know someone is gonna screw things up.
Maybe our work is of questionable quality but I won't knowingly work for someone who whines/bitches. Life is too short.
I also would not hire a whining sub for exactly the same reason. It is not that hard to get good quality work if you are willing to pay for it and are a reasonable person to deal with.
I can feel for you.
I used to install stair rails for a builder whose flooring guy was always trying to SAND AND FINISH the floors before we got there. I offered to work with him, install the posts, all the rail, drill the baluster holes in the floor and then let him come sand before I put the balusters in.
he never wanted to. He just wanted to screw everyone else.
I gotta ask? Did the roofer know he was supposed to wait until the siding was painted?
If he did? The answer is simple. He pays the painter for the extra work or he's gone. He aint the only roofer in town and noone is good enough to put up with that bu()*&^t from.
If he didn't? well, maybe you guys need a little better communication.
Well Put!
Seems most have problems following directions. Want to do what they want when they want!
We never... ever.... put siding on till the drywall is done.
Too much weight causing the structure to squat making the siding look like pooh.
Ahhh......the old drywalling weight squat clause.
Hummm.... First time I'd heard that.... Interesting....
I wonder how much the siding weighs vs the weight of the drywall....
Might be 6-one-half dozen of the other? Wonder if the weight of the siding might crack the drywall? That stuff isn't too flexable once it's mudded up....
Edited 7/27/2008 9:10 pm ET by Matt
i've never seen that one before.
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WTB the FC wieghs more than the DW....
hadn't heard of that one either...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yeah, my first read on that had me thinking same thing - he wants the buckling on the sheetrock inside?
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Run this by me again. Your framing actually moves after the drywall is installed?
If he's actually being serious I say we laugh him out of the joint when he comes back........=)Naive but refreshing !
See it all the time with vinyl. It will buckle between 1st and 2nd floor. Adding the weight of the roof and sheetrock after siding is taking a chance I wouldn't.
And yes houses do squat as weight is added. Ever see window sills caught on brickwork... it's not because the bricks swelled.
We do have a roof on before siding, and we build a little slower than some, so I guess maybe we have already allowed time for shrinkage of some floor framing, but if it is the weight that is causing your settling, there is something amiss in the way you are stacking things up there. Since you mention at floors - are you framing with solid lumber or engineered floor framing?
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Houses settle as they dry. It is usually attributed to the framing lumber shrinking, not additional weight being put on the house. That's why it is most noticeable at floors where the plates and joists are shrinking across the grain.
Whatever the cause, thanks for the phrase "Houses squat". It is a most evocative way to describe it, and with your permission I'll use it from now on.
Haven't heard that one before. I guess that's why this is such an informative board.
BTW, what happens when there's a wet snow and there's maybe an extra 20-30#/SF roof load coming down through those walls??
Runnerguy
Edited 7/28/2008 5:33 pm ET by runnerguy
Unless you are building on a glacier.... snow load goes away with the flowers of spring.... unlike the constent weight of roof shingles and drywall.
Keep swinging, with a stroke like that you are destine to knock one out of the park someday.....
someday...... 3:-)
Interesting Sledge.
I have not heard of very many people who delayed siding till after sheetrock.
I was in one community in jersey where they required siding on before drywall as the home had to be dried in and they did not consider sheathed to be dryed in.
My siding guys learned over the years to hang the vinyl on the whole house working up the wall and at the bands would pull the siding tight when nailing so that when the joists shrunk the siding would not oil can.
I assume you are talkin Vinyl siding.
I remember a competetor ripping Thermo Ply and nailing it onto the exterior band boards. When the dimensional lumber shrank, the thermo ply would pop out and create dents in the siding. It made the whole community look like Poo.
Dont see that issue much anymore with I joists though.
matt im going to say this as a GC not a roofer.
The heck with the painter, thank your lucky stars the roofer showed up.
Its summer, hes busy and thought he would get the roof on so your project kept going.
I can see the painters point but the painter is not going to stop the insulation, wiring from going in.
You might tell the roofer this and ask for one of his helpers for the day to paint.
Or you just might do it yourself.
at any rate your project is going forward.
If the roofer had to wait on the painter and go start another job you would have been screwed.
collateral damage.
When i had roofers i gave up on pretty much all new work.
No advance time, wait one month to get paid and dealing with this stuff.
Plumbers not ready, carpenters not finished etc.
Painters complain about everything, if you served them lobster for lunch they would make a fuss theres no steak>G<
"Painters complain about everything, if you served them lobster for lunch they would make a fuss theres no steak"LMAO! Ain't it the truth!
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Hey,
I resemble that remark.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
So, what colour should I paint my bathroom?;)
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Pif,
Pink, of course. You had to ask?
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
bobbys sure said all of that well and to the point...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yup!Sometimes he beats around the bush.Other times he uses a chainsaw top get the bush out of the way
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yeah...everyone knows roofers NEVER whine
Barry E-Remodeler
you will have no problems wit me if the beers cold and its not a 12/12 pitch;]
except for the 12:12 thing that's true of most any tradekeep em cold and keep them coming<g>
Barry E-Remodeler
This morning when I made a few calls this is what I got:
From the painter: "Don't worry about it. It's construction. Now that the roof is on, we will get there when we get around to it.
From the roofer "They didn't mess up our roof did they"
At this point I think I'm roofer shopping. Dime a dozen. Not saying I'm getting a new roofer, but for now, let's just say F--- the roofer.
Matt
did you make clear to the roofer that he had a certain day to do his work? I could see where he thought he was doing you a favor. Wasn't sure he could get it all done on Monday, or whatever. Throw a little OT at the crew and make sure your job is taken care of.
If you said I need you Monday. Nothing else. Most crews are off on Saturday. He might not have expected a paint crew in.
and a call to verify it would be availible would be nice.
Just one scenario
Around here roofing ALWAYS precedes painting. I wouldn't do it any other way. And our painters have never ever mentioned wanting to be in before the roofer. Painters protect the shingles from overspray (if they are spraying) and they protect the shingles from drips and spills if they are brushing. What can I say.......I'm surprised at your sequence.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I'm more surprised at his petulance over something so minor - to go roofer shopping when he's had a good use from this roofer for four years and the painter doesn't much care one way or another.
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Me too.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
roofers must be a dime a dozen where you are to think of telling one to buzz off..
dont think they dont talk and word gets around whos difficult.
Try building and having the good roofers blow you off and get stuck with no shows and bad ones.
around here most people pre paint the rakes and facias before they go up.
Others do spray after and it blows up on the sheathing.
However a good painter can spray the soffits after if the facias are already painted.
They can spray in the morn when theres no wind or have someone hold a board.
Although everyone does things different i paint the rake and facia boards well before they go up.
Good job for a helper.
I also pick my own boards out if i can i like them straight and no wows.
RUN AND HIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LMC
Painter still hasn't come back.... so much for being ahead of schedule...
But it's still a good thing the roofer isn't the one who didn't come back;)
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Matt It's probably why I dont make alot of money right now, but it will pay me back later in life as my reputation grows. I am a carpenter, remodeler, framer, contractor, and sub. I know that its more effcient to do the paint on new construction before the roof goes on and if the roofer has been doing roofs for any amount of time he knows it to! So he blatently put his benefit before the benefit of the construction process. Yeah he might be a good roofer and mistakes happen, but this was no mistake. Now you have to give him a little competition, some one who is hungry for the work, that will make him think about it, next time he wants to jump the gun on you.
But Hey, this is all coming from a guy that puts quality First !
This is a simple scheduling and communications snafu.Has nothing to do with quality. I could make a case for quality on either side, leaning to better job when roofed first.
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You make a good point Piffin, I guess over stated the point of quality perhaps. To me efficiency promotes quality. It has to be way faster to spray two coats and brush the third. And the area behind the drip edge gets paint also. Are these guys hanging there heads now on the job, because they quoted it for a spray?BTW why would you brush on the third coat?Keep me informed would like to know!
We brush on all coats because it is better bond.
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The painter must be more careful if the roof goes on first.The roofer has to be more careful if the paint goes on first.With over 35 years of experience in quality construction, I prefer the roof going on first. Quality can be achieved either way, this thread was the first time I ever heard any contractor insist that paint be done first, except for those few builders I have seen in FHB that frame, install windows, install cornices, and paint while the wall is on the deck. (I never understood the advantages of that approach)John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
You make valid points Svenny. I am one of those guys that have built overhangs (cornices) on the wall on the deck. Pre-Primed all sides of rough sawn trim and installed windows on the deck. Building over hangs on the ground I learned from good framers in SE Michigan. Its amazing how well they come together if your good at doing it. If your building a 12" overhang out of rough sawn, in my mind, there is no better way. It's fast and strong if you tie it to the rafters and roof ply the right way.Installing windows on the deck I learned from the framers to. We have lifted 30'* 18' walls with overhangs complete, packed out at second story for brick, siding installed, and windows installed. It took about 30 guys to raise, but do-able when in a subdivision with other crews working. Or just use a crane! The man hours saved is tremendous! Three guys working on it, can complete all of this in a day or less. Now granted this is all new construction work. I believe its better to install windows after the fact, unless its a fixed window