As some of you know we are a handyman service/light remodeler. If we have developed a specialty or niche it is in the middle class bathroom area.
Things in our area have slowed down some so in an attempt to ratchet up some business and hopefully take advantage of tax returns I ran an ad that offered a new tub, surround, vinyl floor, vanity, med cabinet, mirror, light bar, lav faucet and tub faucet for $2495. Got a few jobs with this and got a lot of buzz if you will on other stuff. So it was worth the ad cost.
I had one lady call, in her 70’s, widow. She represents about 40% of my clients which are seniors and in this general bracket. Nice home, well kept but nothing special. Wants the special but wants changes. She changes everything but as is typical with this situation has no specific products in mind. I price it and it comes in at $5600. She says she wants to think it over but would like to keep the floor samples overnight and I agree.
I pick up the floor samples and she asks why my pricing is more than double. I explain the cost of each item and the changes it represent. She says she now understands and wants to think it over and go look at wall finishes (wanted marlite paneling in the bath) then we will finish up Monday. Doesn’t call Monday so I call Tuesday. She says while at Lowes she sees a complete shower stall that is half the price of the one I quoted. I explain the differnces in the drain location and new construction vs remodel units etc. She says she just doesn’t think my pricing adds up.
I see it coming and feel helpless to stop the train from running over me. I explain that we can install anything she likes but that she asked me to price a bathroom with no specs so I based it on what I usually install but if she wants to substitute I am open for that. She says she doesn’t know exactly what she wants but will think it over some more. I ask where she wants to be price wise, she says under 5k so I offer a couple of alternatives and offer to eat $250. She says she’ll think it over. Today calls and says she went with someone else.
I am not a natural salesman and have really worked in that area. I tried to close at every meeting while still being the informational contractor. I am sure I could do better but am content that I did as well as I have done in the past. Maybe the price on the ad was a bad idea but I thought it would seperate me from the pack, and in others mind it did, just not this ladies. Anyway I knew when she questioned my pricing and product selection the second time the trust was gone and there was little I could do to regain it.
I guess I just needed to vent. I feel like I did everything I should have done, and could have done trying to be upfront and honest and lost a job that is our bread and butter through no fault of my own. But maybe not. Oh well. Going on sales calls tonight. Thanks for letting me air it out. DanT
Replies
Were you offering quality products as part of the basic package, or loss-leader junk? Probably decent stuff. Then this is one of those that was better to not get.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
dan.. you're the one that got away...
no way was she going to allow you to make any money on that job..
your gain... her loss.. what do you suppose she's going to get fom someone else that is going to be better than what she would have received from you ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dan, there are ads that appear in our local paper similar to yours in makeup. For the most part these are come ons, with the purpose of getting you in and selling the upgrade. Knowing you through the few years at breaktime, I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case with your ad. Believe these guys that tell you to let it go. A pity she won't be as lucky. And if you don't close the next one, remember........it's spring training, opening day is just around the corner.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I appreciate the kind words. No it wasn't a loss leader, it was all name brand material on the middle class side. Moen faucet, AS tub etc. If it is all we sold we would pay wages and make a few hundred. We hoped to upsell some but again I am not a pressure salesman, more of a broker of information, are you interested type sales person.
And I do figure I am better off without the sale. It was just frustrating to lose a sale that is in your area of strength when all you were doing was being up front and honest about the whole thing. Oh, well. Again thanks. I am now officially over it! DanT
You're not gonna please everyone and you're not gonna sell every job. It's fine to analyze why a job got away, learn from it, try to improve your approach, but I wouldn't waste 10 min worrying how this one got away.
If your ad got you even a couple of jobs, it was a succes. Like all "specials" you don't want to run it all the time, or it's no longer special.
Sounds like a good marketing ploy to generate some work during the slow times. I might even try it myself some time!
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Dan, I've been in sales for 10 years now and agree with the group - to some degree. You can't win 'em all. However I, like you, rack my brains to think of how I could have done something better (or kicked a customer to the curb more quickly) after "losing" a sale. In this case I'd recommend asking a few more probing questions upfront AND presenting yourself in a different fashion upfront as well.
First, when initially meeting with a customer you want to ask them basic questions such as "why are you looking to make a change in your bathroom?", "who else are you considering for this job?", "why are you considering them?", "would you mind if I explained how our work differs from theirs?", etc. You ask all these in a very FRIENDLY, NON-confrontational and NON-salesman-y way. I'm a salesman and there's nothing I hate more than a "slick-willie" type salesperson. You want to come across like her nephew (son is too intimate; then they get suspicious if you act TOO Friendly) that truly cares that the job is done right.
Second, tell people UPFRONT that you will NOT be the cheapest. I once had a paint guy tell me that he charged $200 to do an estimate, that he did quality work and that he'd apply that money to the job if he got it. I passed and went with a cheaper guy. However now that I'm earning more money and in a different "demographic" I'd probably go with him because I've learned my lesson by going with the cheaper guys. I respected him for telling me that he was high-priced and telling me WHY. I wasn't his customer. But he was then able to spend more time with the people that WERE his ideal/target customers after he got dumped by me. At the time it was a better fit for him and me.
So yes, don't kick yourself for losing this one. At the risk of sounding harsh you also have to keep in mind that seniors are on a budget and they have LOTS of time on their hands. Frankly that sounds like a deadly combination for someone in your shoes. Best of luck,
Rob
Dan, Do you really want to make ad shopping, coupon clipping, senior discount inquiring, AAA and AARP's your bread and butter? I'd never sell on price like that- once you start someone on the idea of a $2495 bathroom you'll never move them up and it's all your fault because you got them fixated.
I don't do ads because you're giving someone the right to call and shop you for ideas because you asked them to. Take quality care of your customers- show them that you're the person to lead their remodeling projects in the proper order for their budget, over their lifetime in the house, i.e.; tell them when they're wasting money because they'll only tear that out later doing the thing that needed to be done first.
I just looked at a friend of a customer's roof. He got a couple of prices to do 1/2 his back roof where it was leaking. I told him he'd probably spend 3X the amount doing it that way because tying in the subsequent sections would be so much more labor intensive. I told him I would prefer he had someone else do it if he insisted on doing it that way because I want customers for life, not a few days. It works and it worked because it's honest, straight forward,and customers need trades people they can trust for a lifetime.
It isn't a coincidence that people like to tell their friends about someone that they can't know without being "in the know". When I was a kid my father took his car to a really good, honest bodyman who shop was hiden so he wouldn't be bothered by anyone who didn't specifically set out to see him. He would tell you if you were wasting your money fixing a car that was worth less than the body work and people never let him down. He was never not working when you went to his shop.
this line of work is 180deg away from what I try to focus on now in carpentry ...
but was exactly how I cut my teeth learning sales in carpet cleaning.
I have a recommendation/question.
Can U make up 3 "levels" of sales lines.
Good, better , best.
I say three ... because to not confuse the "average" customer ... U gotta limit the choices. Do U think you could price out three "levels", the sale level .. and one that this lady would have been comfy with? That'd eliminate alot of shoppers shopping trips.
Also ... if U had the 3 levels ... U would have had all 3 levels of samples with you .. eliminating a trip ... and cutting down on her decision time.
As far as losing control when she asked about the upcharge ... all I can say is get it in your head that every question a customer asks it yet another oportunity to sell your product. Questions are good. Knowledge is power. Questions control the conversation. Answer their questions, confirm that U have fully answered their question. Then ... ask a question. That let's U regain control of the conversation.
Objections: Identify ..... Clarify ... Overcome.
"Is your question the "actual dollar amount" of the increase in the bid? Or is your question as to "why" did the bid increase ..."
see .. two different and completety logical answers. Good selling is just getting to the bottom of things and clearing the air. I'm sure U could honestly answer both those Q's if need be. But don't try to answer both at the same time.
" I tried to close at every meeting while still being the informational contractor."
How'd U try to close. Are U sure U asked? Firmly and clearly?
as much as I hated saying the words ... when I was selling cars ...
"What would it take to get U in this car tonight?" ... is a very effective close.
I find myself using something very similar when selling my remodeling.
Last big remodel I did ... my price looked ok .. they had tons of money ... loved my pics ... and they tried to end the meeting with .. "we'll get back to U" ...
So I fell back to my roots. I was pissed ... I wanted this project!
"Well, I have to ask .. why aren't we leaving with a signed contract? You need to think something over ... which part of my proposal aren't you 100% comfortable with?"
then .. another old car sales trick ...
"Is it me? Do you not feel I'm can do the job to your 100% satisfaction?"
which of course U hope they feel bad and say No no no ....
They said ... "No, of course not. It's just that ... well .. the contract is written so ...."
and there. I had pulled teeth and identified the objection. They wanted a clearer time frame of completition ... plus their last contractor was there for a week and took off for a month ... so I said ... Great. If I type up something covers those minor concerns ... do I have your verbal signature that I'll get the written if I handle your concerns in writting. They said Yes. I did so and 2 days later we signed the contracts at the easiest closing I ever had ... Just here it is ... sign here ... Oh yeah, I'll need a check. Thanks.
"I tried to close at every meeting while still being the informational contractor."
Again .. that's my method ... I think it's the best ... fits my personality ... as long as you are definitly asking for the close! 70% of all sales calls go "unclosed" because the salesmen simply did not ask for the close. The prospects need to be "directed" ... we do this everyday ... they don't. They need to know what the next step is .... even if U simply set the proposal on the table and say ... If everything looks good, just sign here"
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
All good advice and I appreciate it. Just to clarify I always state we are not he cheapest. And I did the what can I do to close today questions. And I did clarify the what is wrong items thats how I knew that the issue was the change in price from the ad to what here quote was. Where I really felt helpless was even though I answered her concerns item by item in an open and honest way I could tell by voice and body language that she was thinking "oh sure, you have an answer for everything".
As far as the thought of never running an ads because it opens you for shopping, if I don't I don't grow my business. Nice theory to sit and hope the phone rings but the reality is if you haven't been in business long enough to have developed a long list of referals then during slow times you will starve. Advertising works you just end up sorting through a bigger pile of sh*t to get to the real work. This must have been a case of the former lol.
But again thank you all. I know it is a matter of continual improvement in the sales area and I continue to read and try to improve. Interestingly enough my dad was a salesman for years when I was young. He quit doing that when I was 10. He is the least handy person I have ever met. Shows it all isn't passed through the gene pool. DanT
dan.. you want the best ads ...
use your news paper ads as "placekeepers" get's you tel. number out there..
what you really want is your customer base to handle your marketing for you..
this means extra work and a higher price.. you've got to deliver some wow to get them to brag to their friends..
also go to your suppliers.. bribe them ... kill them with respect....make the suppliers know that they can rely on you to get the job done right.. put yourself in the position of getting their recommendations when the homeowner asks their advice..get off the price kick.. also.. it helps if you do most of you materilas purchase at the same well known lumber yard.. ( this is not HD or Lowes.. you will NEVER get a referral from them)
go for reputation of satisfaction..
referrals, references, recommendations,leads...then you , super salesman...close the deal...
that senior citizen lady had you by the beltloops... shame on you... (ask jeff about beltloops)Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I know you are smart and educated enough. You may need to get comfortable with your best style. Pick up some books . I like Zig Ziglar. You are probably better than me now . Im just giving feed back.
I was an auctioneer for several years. That business draws cheap people or at least they think their cheap. Most dont end up on the sale tickets though.
Peoples exchange on the radio draws cheap people .
Im a very cheap person and think pricing and bartering is fun. I really enjoy it . I also work very hard at it . Im comfortable doing it . Sounds like this lady was comfiortable as well. Mebbe shes good at it .
Some people have the ability to take your shirt then borrow your car . Old people are some of the best and dont slack women , they can certainly hold their own.
When ever you advertize and include price , youre gonna get people who use prices.
Youre not gonna knock them all out slugger.
I know how you got good at bathrooms. <G>
Timothy
hahaha ,
Mike and Jeff are always good reading for me .
Mike doesnt want to talk about price cause he would not be a low bidder . He probably rarely mentions it if its up to him. He sells himself instead.
I think Mikes way has to come from customer referrals and not advertising. If his type did advertise it would only say how good he is and you are in good hands so to speak. In other words just getting a good name out there . I like his method , I like Jeffs , but I also like yours .
I believe you are a very good business man. Probably more experienced than Jeff or Mike . Stand on your strenghs. All the hype here says charge high and hide the costs. Thats fine . But that isnt the only way to make money. In fact its totally differnent than most of the huge markets. If you can find a way to do volume and have several men in the field doing things like bathrooms for 2495 , you would control the business. You would be buying so cheap and your labor paid out would also be bottom line. Noone would be able to touch you. Sooner or later you would be known as the 2495 man though and to get work the rest would be chasing you.
Ive been thinking a long time about a contractor acting like walmart , doing it their way and controlling the business. Far fetched? Sure it is . Might make you rich though and blow others away.
Timothy
all true.. but since i start the discussion at $10K for a full bath.. i can't conceive of how $2495 is going to give you any cushion at all for the inevitable problems that arise in remodeling..
if i get three sales calls , qualify them and close one for $10K
and dan gets 3 sales calls, qualifys them, and closes 3, there is still $ 2515 on the table....
hmmmmmm
try researching Remodeling Magazine's project cost issue ( typical kitchen... typical bath.. typical half bath.. adjusted for location )
dan .. ya gotta get jeff to do the beltloops..it's 3" on slush on the graound this morning and i need a good laughMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ok Mikey,
You dont hunt or fish and I dont play golf , but wouldnt it be interresting?
Hes not pricing a whole new bath.
"I ran an ad that offered a new tub, surround, vinyl floor, vanity, med cabinet, mirror, light bar, lav faucet and tub faucet for $2495."
My material price on the above is about 1000 to 1200. No walls , cielings , or toto commode. Only viynal on the floor. NO bathroom gut , just an upgrade.
Thats a weeks work for one man . 40 hrs @ 15.00 per hour = 600.00
What Dan doesnt mention is tying the wallcovering back into the tub . If they have tile or wallpaper , its an upcharge.
1200 +600 = 1800, so it looks like theres 700 left for me and probably Dan since our rentals are closley priced.
Just for kicks , 700 x 10 is 7000 per week x 52 = 364,000 per year. Not too bad for the South where a 4000 sq ft house costs 26000 brand new on a nice big lot retail.
yur turn
Timothy
Mike, I come up with that same $9-10K range on the typical 5x8 bath, which I've estimated a few times and they're surprisingly alike. But... it always include stripping the room to upgrade wiring and plumbing, moving the shower drain for a new unit, rerocking, etc. I think DanT's jobs don't open the wall. Also, he's one of the few guys here who does a repeat product and doesn't stray into other gigs very much if at all. That takes a lot of leads, especially in a smaller town, which I believe he's in.
Still, I totally agree about the referrals from suppliers. Invaluable. I bought a nice entry lockset from the store in town that sells them, and got talking to the owner, a reformed door-hanger/hardware-installer. Somehow he decided that I was the guy who would actually show up to do the half-day and one-day installs that his customers need. Now he's making my phone ring, and the folks who call have decided to hire me before they've even talked to me. Those small things turn into bigger things and it's effortless free marketing.
Now, every sub/supplier/home inspector/installer/whatever I meet, I'm selling them, because they are way more effective than my newspaper ad, which does get me work but gets my tires kicked too much.
"Mike, I come up with that same $9-10K range on the typical 5x8 bath, which I've estimated a few times and they're surprisingly alike. But... it always include stripping the room to upgrade wiring and plumbing, moving the shower drain for a new unit, rerocking, etc. I think DanT's jobs don't open the wall. Also, he's one of the few guys here who does a repeat product and doesn't stray into other gigs very much if at all. That takes a lot of leads, especially in a smaller town, which I believe he's in."
Youve got the picture alright. Dont let the 2495 bother you . If you are getting that kind of big money then you are also on a high pay scale. Oranges to apples. You are probly using profesional people in each trade. Dan is not pricing the things you are mentioning , but those would be up charges which sell more work at a higher price. He is getting in the door at 2495 and getting more work. Here none of that work would require an inspection or a plumber. Our codes states that an unlisensed person cannot alter plumbing , but fixtures are ok. Every floor layer in the country removes and resets commodes. Handy men can replace all fixtures as long as they dont alter the systems. They cannot do things such as run a light switch or add a fan that did not exist previously. You are right again that doing one thing then becomes a specialty. Dan comes from the repo market where he also has several rentals. Thats right down his alley.
Timothy
Advertising works you just end up sorting through a bigger pile of sh*t to get to the real work. This must have been a case of the former lol.
You are absolutely right. I'm in the same position. I'm developing my business and it will be some time before I can get by on referrals, if ever. Some businesses will always have to advertise. I have a Mercedes van, and would recommend it to anyone who needed a new van, but I see Mercedes are still advertising
I think putting some prices in your advertising is a good thing too. People need to have some idea of what kind of price they are looking at. Most understand that their job will prpbably be more expensive, but at least they have some kind of idea.
One of the worst time wasters I've had was a referral
John
tim....
i can never get past this ..
<<<Thats a weeks work for one man . 40 hrs @ 15.00 per hour = 600.00 >>>
that guy gets charged to the job at $50/hr....
if i want to make $15 / hr.. i'd have to go to work for someone else and take a pay cut
and no... he is remodeling the bath... he's not switching out fixtures.. plumbers switch out fixtures..
once the tub comes out.. you're in too deep..
like i said.. read Remodeling Magazine's annual "cost of the job" issueMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ok, I net $550 after everything if it goes only at 2495. The hope is to up sell if possible if not at least we would make wages which in our area at the moment I might be the only one doing so. I said in another thread that on 4 crew remodeler already folded and a number of guys my size have. Hence the idea of the go get the tax refund bathroom. And frankly it has worked.
I don't want to do these all the time but when nothing else is happening then this beats closing the doors. I appreciate your thoughts on the upper end market. My area is exceedingly blue collar beer and hamburger type of enviroment. The upper end we do have has a number of good guys well entrenched. I found the middle class bath to be a forgotten area and have made a science of it. We can do one of these in 30-35 hours.
This is my fifth year in business. I have more supplier leads than ever. And I get them form my plumbing supply house, Lowes, electical supply house etc. I also have my advertising reps who are refering me. I have further joined a group called BNI which is a network of different businesses that trade leads. All have helped. But it is not the volume that allows me to stand back and say if it ain't a 10k bathroom I ain't doing squat. Or if I don't get a lead that pays me 10k then I will just sit. When I get there I will do so, but until then working and keeping busy and making money will continue to be my key focus.
We do other work as well. Just bid a siding job, a small window replacement job, and two more bathrooms. I also have a good deal where I can do small additions. So variety we don't lack. Today I hung a storm door and worked on my project house while my brother stomped a ceiling in a basement we are re-doing.
And interestingly enough I have a reputation of being good, on time and honest but expensive. But I am also a hustler by nature and am unwilling to starve or have my brother do so to simply put on the pride banner of "we don't work unless we make X". So that is how I came up with the idea of the 2495 bathroom.
Now, Jeff Buck, whats Mike talking about? DanT
You're one of the most focused and intelligent business guys on here, in my opinion. Once in a while I get the kind of job you do for $2495 and I can't do it for that. In fact, if you were local I'd have you do MY bath because I can't even do my own for that... because I don't have it down to a science. Your market will probably hold up reasonably well no matter what happens to the economy, because there are always going to be folks who need to remodel a bathroom that cannot be cleaned no matter how hard they try.
Regarding the one that got away, that happens to everyone. Let it go. I recently priced one at a little over $30K. I spent the time it took to really detail the estimate so I knew I was within a few percent. Very fair price for very good work. Then the guy calls me back and says he's got someone to do it for $20K. Yeah, it burns my azz but I guess I didn't qualify him very well and I get the pleasure of knowing that right now someone is ruining his bathroom, and will probably have to disappear partway thru when they run out of money and realize they blew it. Maybe he'll call me back then, and I hope he does so I can blow him off.
I spent the time it took to really detail the estimate so I knew I was within a few percent
I'm spending the time to re-write Sonny's "The Process" to fit my business model so I can avoid spending the time estimating things for free.
WAGs (wild azz guesses) are free...you pay for everything else.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You and I are in similar boats. I am new (18 months) in this town, and you are trying to move to a different sector in the same town. For now, everyone that calls me gets a visit to their home and a written proposal if they want one. I have written proposals for everywhere between $600 to hang some doors and $90,000 for a major facade redo, and will continue to do so until... I don't have to. The best advertising I have is the way I present myself, so I don't pass up a chance to do that.
BTW, would you frame an addition in Ann Arbor?
Yes, I'll go to Ann Arbor. It's just a straight shot down US 23 for me.
I gotta disagree about writing those 90k estimates free though. As soon as you offer to do it free, they will take you up on it. If they truly need it done, then they will be paying a design and plan fee to somebody, so they might as well start with that.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Yeah, it burns my azz but I guess I didn't qualify him very well and I get the pleasure of knowing that right now someone is ruining his bathroom, and will probably have to disappear partway thru when they run out of money and realize they blew it."
LOL!!! That is exactly how I feel! Thanks for the compliment on the business thing. I work hard at it. I just get frustrated when all doesn't go according to my personal plan. Reminds me of the saying, "want to hear God laugh? Tell him you have a plan". DanT
I know , youre probably losing patience with me .
Lemme tell ya what I think and Im done. [mebbe]
Dan T has his stuff together rehabbing which is remodeling . Hes tearing his butt up trying to keep his brother busy working for folks . He does not have the market for it and neither do I. He gave ya his spill about how bad it is ......... Well, I didnt tell ya somthin. I can hire a guy just like me that has the knowledge and tools to do that job . In fact I know two good ones . I can hire either one or I suppose any one else could for that money. I pay either one 15 an hour and forget it . They are self employed. There are more , but those are the best . I my friend am not going to do it . The only way I can make it is buying and selling and do that work. In my opinion Dan needs to do the same thing , but Dan knows whats up. The only way to make it at those prices is volume which he doesnt have it doesnt sound like.
Im happy for yall that have advantages of getting that kind of money. I didnt mention I can hire a house built for the same money , so I guess Ill build some apartments and make off of that while its there to get.
Timothy
Tim,I would love to get an employee that is competent and dependable who only COSTS me $15/hr. Just adding burden in bumps the lowest paid laborer to about that. And that's with no contribution to the company overhead or profit.
Jon Blakemore
so, mooney.. when do we get the Ireland report .. the boss got back safe yet ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ill let her respnd to that . Shes still at work tonight .
Timothy
tim.. i hear you.. and i understand. i wouldn't hire me for at my prices.. you wouldn't hire me at my prices.. dan wouldn't hire me at my prices
but if i doubled my prices , there are still a lot of people who will hire me... and they'll be getting their money's worth
would you pay $50k for a Hummer ?
i know a bunch of guys who would..
if you can sell the job at $3k .. why can't you sell the job at $5K ?
it's just like Willy Sutton said he robs banks cause that's where the money is
we've gotta find the customers who have the money and think we're the ones to deliver the goods
and anudder ting.. how could i lose patience with the guy who invented the Mooney Wall ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"if you can sell the job at $3k .. why can't you sell the job at $5K ?"
Im not really sure about that and probably Dan could answer that better than I. I havent worked for the public in a long time . Last thing I was doing before my HA was all commercial. I was making it off volume as I mentioned before.Then of course investing and rentals. Its been years since Ive worked for homeowners.
DW actually put the quieteetes to that years ago. She told me I wasnt making it and that I nedded to quit hiring out residential. She hit me first with realizing my billable hours. Self employment is quite a tax burden too. It was 14 yrs ago she had that first serious talk which was really a scolding . Two years later she nipped it in the bud. So I guess its been 12 years now since Ive worked for the public. Not counting last years inspecting.
Timothy
Why can't I sell a 3k job for 5? Thought I went over that but lets recap.
Beer and hamburger area. Blue chippers are few but we have a group of guys that cater to them and are quite good at what they do. And they are cheap. One that I know reasonably well has about 25 customers he works in between. He can do most anything and is a real perfectionist. He just raised his rates to 30 an hour. And he only works T&M. Marks up material a little but I don't know how much.
These guys all work together if needed and they don't really own a business but they own their own jobs. Thats not what I am looking for. We have done a few jobs for the rich and shameless. Went well. But I lost 2 of them because they thought a $50 service call was high.
A lot of the folks I have available don't have 5k, they have 3k. So where does the rest come from? Look we have discussed the difference in property values in our areas before. Think that might have some bearing on the issue? I mean if the people you work for can afford to own a house that costs half a mil then is stands to reason that they can shell out 10k for a bathroom. There are not 200 half mil houses in my county.
When I first started in business I listened to you and Piffin on these issues and that is what I shot for. And I had big lags in business. I am not saying you are wrong but I am saying our econcomic areas are different. And it took me a while to figure that out. If I work for the middle class at a premium rate I can do well and have enough business. Because there are more of them and they are available. You of course don't have to believe me and can sit in your small area by the sea and think "he just won't listen". But I am here and unwilling to starve so you can be wrong conclusivly. DanT
dan... that wasn't the purpose of my last post...
i really was acknowledging that you couldn't sell your job to those customers for a higher number on a consistent basis..
my real point with willy sutton was that he would move to an area that could ..
when you are young and starting out , if you have the choice, you cn locate in an area that will support the kind of work you want to do, or not
me... i just fell into it.. i grew up here.. when i was growing up it was the same economic environment that you describe...it took me a long time to look around and realize that it was changing and so should i..
i met a guy i hadn't seen in 10 years yesterday .. we're both about the same age.. 60 ..
we met in the Planning Office.. and lamented about the current atmosphere for builders.. he does quite well.. a lot better than me.. he controls a lot of land in Rhode Island..
all his adult kids (two boys) took his advice and moved to Arizona... their population is growing every day.. the are making money hand over fist in construction...
here in Rhode Island.. the population is stagnant.. i bet it is where you live too.. perhaps we should both move to where the banks are... cause that's where the money is
just follow the demographics
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We are on the same page after all. I agree. We are a bedroom community for Columbus. When times are good we grow a little. When they slow down we stop. But I have been here 26 years, have numerous other business interests so riding it out is my task.
I agree also that if young following the demographics is the way to go. My son has recieved the same advice. DanT
hey... common ground....
BTW... already drank the Kool-Aid.. they closed the Credit Unions in Rhode Island in the late '80's... we rode a recession from then until about late '95..
we were in survival mode for all of that time...one thing i realized.... work goes on even in a recession... keep your opportunities open.. don't get bogged down in survival work ..
so , in that respect your $2995 baths do let you change gears fastMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, well it was always figured to be a one shot deal. It really didn't sell the base product like I thought but we got a ton of buzz out of it and a number of calls in other areas. I just sold a small bath job last night based on the home show we did. But in keeping with your advice on the survival work I bid a bath 2 weeks ago for 18k. Had to rebuild structure out over the garage for the whirlpool tub they wanted. Didn't get it, sticker shock. Nice house too, would have been a neat job.
We have picked up and have most of April booked and a week in May so things are progressing. I am just working at marketing and improving those skills so I can be a rich contractor like you some day! :-) DanT
it's all smoke and mirrors , dan...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So let me ask you some questions.
I guess you advertized in the paper ?
I have had the same thought for a long time but I planned to go about it differently. I guess we all have stated our strenghs at one time or another . Im very comfortable dealing in person and enjoy it . Dont know if Im good at it .
I had thought of opening an office managing rental property for others. The same business Im in with buying them and selling . Flipping properties. Doing repair work and winterizing vacant properties for lenders and homeowners that live here and away. Cabin rentals , construction and sales with a web site. An old time construction office in my mind where tradesmen come in at 6.30 to drink coffee and get dispatched to the jobs my office sold. I had in my my mind of selling those bathrooms and everything else and subbing it out. Theres no way I can employ people qualified for the money I mentioned. My thoughts are to let them continue working for that 15 and bid them in at 30 to 45. If they bid 20, theres plenty of room. Blue is talking about the same thing in a way but he wants control . Hes talking about someone selling for him, but that sales person would have to be selling for others to make it. I had planned to run specials monthly in hopes of doing certain things for at least a week at a time such as cracks and holes repaired in drywall the second week of May and even explaining why the prices were cheap . Ceiling fans the third week, and new sinks and lavatories tops and bowls the fourth week. Maybe run an up grade commode on sale installed such as Toto. Getting people qualified with the bank to affford payments for work to be done . Bath tub surrounds alone and the list goes on.
From what you said the people were not buying that special and I intended for that to happen. I expected to run upgrades and just the on sale special would make a person think the work is at least reasonable whether the upgrades were priced that way or not.
Seems we are in simialar markets with mine even being cheaper. In my area I would be willing to bid at 30, but 15 is out of the question. My thoughts are to make lemonade out of the situation. I know their paying more to get the car worked on in the shops.
I think I can sell 30 to 45 if Ive got enough leads on small work no one wants. Most dont want bathrooms here to do. A friend of mine told me not long ago that he didnt even return calls on additions. He said there was good reason behind it . He couldnt bid enough money to be happy and wanted to stick with new builds which his crew did every day." It always pizzes them off when I call them and decline , so I dont return the calls. " There are several that feel that way about rework.
Timothy
"So let me ask you some questions."
LOL! Well what are they? DanT
[Crackin up] Of yea,.................. I fer got .... actually I did ask one .
If you or I were to run specials like that in our small towns . Do you think it would cause a flurry of calls ?
What happened exactly on that special you ran, as how many calls and the nature of them?
Timothy
I ran an ad in the paper that was about 5"X 5" listing my company name, and the exact make and model number of the products and services I would provide for a fixed price. I ran the add every other day for a month. Cost $1200.
Recieved 6 calls from the add and sold 1 job. But I recieved numerous inquiries from our other services, blown in insulation, painting etc. and sold at least 4 more jobs from people who saw the ad and said they meant to call me before but hadn't gotten to it. The add reminded them of it.
I am downsizing the add to about 3.5 inches square. I am rewording it to just list the services we offer. I am running it in the month of April. I will let you know how it goes.
In my opinion your idea is not ideal. I think in order to make the most money you need to offer limited services and become really effecient in them. However in small areas like ours that is sometimes tough to do. We have the bathroom thing I have described down to an art. We also do interior painting well and are not bad drywallers on a small scale. I am proficient at residential plumbing repair and not bad with electricity. And its good we can do all those things during slow times. But last summer we were doing 3 sometimes 4 baths a month.
Anyway I think the idea is ok but trying to implement it into a really good product may be tough since these guys you are hiring will have varying strengths and finding them out before you sell them is really important. DanT
That would be quite a bit of money for an add . Ill checkto see what that size would be here . I guess one good thing here is we only have a "weekly paper" and everyone of course has to wait to read it . I just got through listing a house for rent on a line add for two weeks at a cost of 14 dollars.
Timothy
tim.. in your weekly paper they have a service directory.. if you run a weekly ad there as a "place keeper" say 1 column by 3 inches.. and you run it for 52 weeks with your logo..
people will start recognizing you... and..
when they wan to find you, they'll look in the service directory.... and...
since you already advertise 52 weeks, it makes you eligible for the paper's best rate..
so when you want to run your "specials" you'll get a better rate..
and..
they will contact you for their specials .. like the Spring Fix-up... and the Fall-Clean-up
and..
there is usually a preferred spot.. say page two top leftcorner..
run your specials there if you canMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
don't fergit..
tonite is belt loops time...
lemme get something to eat.. and i'll grab a beerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ok .. tomorrow ...
or at least later tonight. Got caught up in "A Sharks Tale" ...
then ... a finely crafted email to a much hoped for biz contact went the way side of the delete button by mistake ... I'm still crying inside! Decided tomorrow is a better day to try and recreat that masterpiece .. man, it was a good one ...
anyways ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Im going to start a new thread featuring you . Let you step up to the microphone if you will .
Timothy
that bathroom deal you were promoting does sound phenomenalone could find it profitable it seems to me in a situation where you could realize efficiencies such as garage door access to motel bathrooms or something but I'm too slow and unlucky as far as the "bones" of a structure to provide for easy transition for fixture and surface treatment changes
I'm up there more toward David & Mike and when you hit the ideal situation this is when you express to the homeowner this is their lucky day and all presents itself to an ideal scenario and this can be done for $6,742 instead of $8,742.
But you know what you are up to and you probably would not have gotten into the door of this "one that got away" if you had advertised higher prices ( as Mike says you're lucky she's gone )what I initially thought when I first read your statement was some people's calculus of value / cost is unreasonable and bizarre
folks I'm working for right now needed a cleaning lady so I recruited ours and she showed up w/ a helper and they worked 4 hrs together ( 8 hrs total ) - 8 hrs total X $ 13 / hr $ 104 total
their regular ( but retired ) cleaner charged $ 15 / hr X 6 or $ 90 and they complained to me that mine was more expensive and they will not hire her again
Anyway they cleaned a hole lot more ( which needed to be done for sale of the house ) and were less / hr but they were still more "expensive"
Who knows?
john....
<<<their regular ( but retired ) cleaner charged $ 15 / hr X 6 or $ 90 and they complained to me that mine was more expensive and they will not hire her again>>>>
no good deed goes unrewarded...
oh, well....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Fri nite ...
I promise. I'll start a biz thread titled "Belt Loops".
I'll need more time and a beer in hand to tell it right.
Too late tonight ... I'd shorten it too much.
But for U and Mike ... anything.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff,"Fri nite ...I promise. I'll start a biz thread titled "Belt Loops"."Did you forget and wear suspenders today?Inquiring minds are waiting.
Jon Blakemore