I have a situation that is driving me nuts. I have a pair of 3-way switches controlling a recepticle. The recepticle follows the two switches, not in between them. When I plug in a recepticle tester, and the switches are off, a light on the tester indicates I have an open neutral. If I turn either switch on, the indicator goes out. If I plug something in and turn it on, the indicator goes out. I also changed the recepticle. The switches work fine and I’ve gone through DIY articles, diagrams, etc. to insure the switches are wired correctly. Everthing works. I even disconnected the current neutral and ran a wire to the neutral side of another recepticle. This other recepticle tested ok and was not hooked up to any switch. I got the same open neutral result. A licensed electrician had wired all the circuits in the house and the wiring is now hidden behind walls. The electrician is not in the area any more, so I can’t ask him.
What’s The problem??? Please tell me this is normal and safe, so I can sleep at night.
Thank you.
Replies
Well...Judging from the time you posted, you can't sleep at night??!!
Are you switching one half of the receptacle or both parts?
I would follow the neutral from the power source. At no time should it be hooked to the switches. It should be wire nutted continuously from the source to the receptacle.
I am switching the hot side of a duplex receptical (both outlets). The neutral is tied into another nearby group of neutral wires. As I mentioned, I even disconnected the neutral wiring and ran a wire to the neutral side of a recepticle that tested ok.
You obviously have something wired wrong if the tester lights up and indicates anything when the switches are "off".
That receptacle is nothing more than a load on the end of the circuit, just as a light fixture would be if you had it wired to the three way switches. You should not be getting juice to the receptacle at all if the switches are actually in the "off" positions and the circuit is wired correctly.
What happens if you plug in a "load", such as a light, when the switches are in the "off" positions?
> You should not be getting juice to the receptacle at all if the switches are actually in the "off" positions and the circuit is wired correctly.Neon testers are subject to "stray" voltage pickup, meaning that they will often register a voltage on a line that isn't connected to anything (but is instead serving as an antenna). When the switch is off, the "hot" leg will be this way, and will tend to "float" somewhere around 50 volts, so that you'll get light measuring between it and just about any other wire.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
I can get one to light with one end on the hot and holding the other end in my hand, but otherwise well insulated.However, if know what what a lite NE2 looks like when it is across 120 it is clear that it is not getting normal voltage. you will see it only 1/2 of it glowing.
That's right!
That's why I asked him what happened when he plugged an actual load into the receptacle when he thought it was "off".
With that in mind, I have never seen a three light tester light up on a receptacle that was dead. Not saying it can't happen, just saying I have never seen it happen.
But a 3-way wiring scheme means that one traveler is hot and the other disconnected. So you've got hot and an "antenna" in close proximity for tens of feet.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Right..it could also mean he actually has an open or switched neutral....it seems to me that it would be very easy to tell if the tester is lighting up brightly.
I have Ideal & GB receptacle testers and both of them will bleed off induced current to the point where you wouldn't see the lights ( or at least they certainly wouldn't appear to be brightly lit)
It will be interesting to hear if he ever finds the problem!
But I know some of the cheap testers are just neon lights, with no load resistors (though they of course have the required ballast resistors).
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
The neutral is being switched, which is not the recommended method. My parents had a garage built and their friend wired it. He was an electrical engineer and was switching the neutral, which caused the ground to go hot in some cases. This was a problem because the garage has aluminum siding. When we sold their house (and I had been zapped a few times), I abandoned the three-way switch in the garage and changed the one in the house to a normal switch, since I really couldn't figure out why a three-way was needed in the first place.
Switching the neutral shouldn't have affected the ground at all. Only if you had a defective device plugged in (with neutral connected to the device shell) would it have created a potential shock situation.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
No recepticles on the line, no fixture attached (it was for a light on the garage- nothing else). I traced everything back to the panel in the basement but could only find that the switches had been mis-wired. My dad never believed the lawn guys when they said they got shocked when they would touch the garage siding. It never happened to him but I'm not sure he checked on the same days, either. I could flip one switch and it would be fine but as soon as I flipped either again, it was back. I think it had to do with the EE wiring it- electron flow is in one direction and conventionally taught current flow is in the opposite, depending on whether you're designing something or working on it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
The EE wiring it might have wired it in the old K&T fashion, with the light between the two switches. This would cause the neutral and hot sides of the light fixture to switch positions, depending on switch position.But none of this should affect a valid ground system. The AL siding should have been "bonded" to electrical ground, eliminating any chance of shock unless you were simultaneously touching a "hot" wire. And the light fixture ground should not have been switched anywhere or connected to neutral (except way back at the breaker panel).
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
"The AL siding should have been "bonded" to electrical ground, eliminating any chance of shock unless you were simultaneously touching a "hot" wire. And the light fixture ground should not have been switched anywhere or connected to neutral (except way back at the breaker panel)."So we're back to blaming an EE who didn't know electrical service wiring, which I believe. No bonding because there was no panel and I'm not sure he ran a ground to the garage at all. How it was approved is beyond me. Re: the siding to ground- the box in question is metallic and in contact. That's how it became a problem. If it had been plastic, I don't think we would be discussing it unless the cover plate was metal. Either way, I got rid of the problem and the house was sold.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Metal siding should always be grounded, if not via bonding to electrical ground then via a separate ground rod.If the box was hot then it was badly miswired.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
"If the box was hot then it was badly miswired."It was. I wasn't too geeked on the wire he used, either. I was just thinking it's possible that he used the conduit from the house to the garage as the means of grounding, but it may have eroded, breaking the connection. There's definitely no ground rods, bonding wires, etc.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
A grounding rod is worthless for something like that.It ain't going to protect you if the siding become electricfied.The typical ground conductivity is just way to poor.
It does protect against stray pickup and high-impedance leaks, and has a chance at least of "finding" a frayed wire in contact with the siding. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
There is a question if AL siding needs to be grounded or not. Often it is not.But for something this case there needs to be multiple failures.More than just wiring the switch into the neutral side.On another forum an electrican said that he got a call that the HO has gotton a shock when getting a glass of water.He found that the kitchen sink was hot.He could not tell exactly how that happened, but he found a switch leg feed with AC cable and the cable was not properly installed in a connector and was not ground. It appeared that the AC cable might have run up against the sink. But it also requires that there be some damage to the wire insulation so that the armour was hot.
See reply to bojangles. I am connecting the neutral side of the receptical to an existing neutral circuit that is fine for other recepticles. I don't know what I would do otherwise??
I assume you have a tester with three LEDs or neon lights? One important point is that those testers can give spurious results in some cases, especially the neon testers. Having an open ground, eg, can register like an open neutral.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Ah! A professional Electrical Engineer strikes again!
Yeah, he even had the cool blue and white striped cap.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
I think my brother has a hat like that but he doesn't go around wiring people's garages in a way that someone could be zapped, either. I don't think you would have wired it that way, either. Hell, I'm not an electrician but have done some rough electrical work (and I stayed at....). I do low voltage but I do know how to keep the ground and hot separate.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Sounds like you don't have a good ground maybe.
Not sure if you're still reading on this topic, but here is my take. There is most probably nothing wrong with the circuit. If you really want to check for an open neutral, I would use a solenoid type tester, one leg to the neutral of the suspect outlet, the other to a hot of an unswitched outlet. When you flip the switch, nothing should happen, since the neutral is most probably not switched. If that works, then sleep well at night. An incandescent light (lamp, droplight, whatever) would also work, just be careful poking wires into outlet holes.
Those receptacle testers are designed to quickly test live outlets, not those that are shut off. Not really crazy about using them except maybe for home inspections I'm not sure why you would be using one if everything is working fine anyway.
Hope this helps. Rich.
If there is a problem, I'm guessing it's a bad ground. The OP should verify that the ground connection is good, both in the box and at the other end of the wire.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Thanks, I'll give this test a try. I can tell you that when I plug a light into the receptical, it works fine. It goes on and off from either 3-way switch. The ground is solid. I connected the receptical ground to existing ground wire that is used by other unswitched recepticals. Same as what I did with the neutral side. Also, with the light plugged in one outlet of the duplex receptical and the tester plugged in the other, the open neutral light goes out and the tester indicates the circuit is ok. I lost my notes on all that I did and what happened, but I seem to remember that the "open neutral" indicator went out went I plugged in a light and not turned either switch on.
The other weird thing is that I can get a reading of very low voltage on one of the traveller lines when nothing is turned on. This is using an analog meter, not a digital one that can toss out meaningless numbers. It's almost like getting feedback from something. I hope this does not cloud the basic problem. I've checked everything connected to the circuit breaker and they all seem to be wired correctly.
I wish I wasn't so curious.
I think you're just reading ghosts.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi