What’s up everyone? I’m going to use spray foam to insulate my house (roof rafters and if possible all the walls). I was wondering what the major differences other than R value per inch are between the 2. Does open cell foam require a separate vapor barrier? Any advice is appreciated. If it matters I’m in NYC and the common insulation tech here is fiberglass batts with the paper coating followed by drywall. I figured I’d use the foam to eliminate any drafts commonly associated with batt insulation. Thanks.
Richie
Replies
I'm going to use spray foam to insulate my house.......Any advice is appreciated.....I figured I'd use the foam to eliminate any drafts commonly associated with batt insulation.
Well you did say "any advice"...Central NC so notably milder climate but the same draft concerns as well as frequent high humidity to control....here's what I did this last time around......
traditional stud framing with paper faced fiberglass batts and drywall. Outside entirely sheathed in 1/2" OSB....painted with aluminum radiant bearier coating inside and out....the only air space I ended up with is the fluff of the insulation bats so I didn't maximize the radiant potential. I then covered the OSB with 1/2" polyiso insulation boards making certain to overlap the OSB seems and used a builders tape on the seems. I ran the panels all the way into the soffit areas etc. and over the roof such that I ended up with a completely sealed foam wrapped box. Finished with a metal roof to reflect heat and walls are covered in fiber cement panels....the brick we wanted had to be shipped in.....the brick happened to be the least expensive of any style.....trucked so far quadrupled the price.....oh well....
Anywhere I broke the envelope, such as hose bibs, outside electrical boxes, etc. I "Great Stuffed" it in and the missus used 6 1/2 cases of caulk inside the perimeter walls to seal every nook and cranny before the batts went in. The "only" thing I'd change on "this" house if I were to do it over is to use 1" foam panels in place of the 1/2".
Using foam panels gives a thermal break that you simply don't get from foamed in place material. I'm not opposed to the foam in place at all....If $ were endless, I'd use the foam in place "&" the foam panels to wrap the house.....roof and all....no venting of the attic.....complete sealed envelope but fiberglass with the foam panels was a great cost alternative for us and the house is sooooo tight.
All of your framing lumber serves as a thermal bridge....spray foam doesn't address this at all.....neither does fiberglass.
For my next house, I'm looking at a house within a shell....the shell will essentually be a solar porch and buffered storage with the main living quarters within the envelope so you get a buffer from the outside walls. Both outer and inner walls will be super insulated giving a similiar "effect" of a dome or inground home but with the look of a somewhat traditional home.
Pedro the Mule - hate them cold drafts across my fur
You want closed cell.
Closed is about R7 per inch and open is half that, about the same as cellulose, and it can store moisture. Closed cell is a vaporbar.
Closed is expensive. One method some are using to cut that is flash and stuff. Instead of fulling stud bay with foam, they spray about 1-1/2" of closed cell foam, then fill the cavity with batts or cellulose or chopped FG. That way you get the VB and infiltration prevention, but total cost of the package can be less.
Some other benefits of a full spray job tho are great sound dampening and more structural stability which you would not get with only an inch.
My economy model insulation is similar to Pedro's with an inch or inch and a half of Thermax on one side of the stud or the other. Which side is critical in some climates, but NYC is moderate enough you could do on either side. I generally run furring/strapping over the foam panels and the the finish surface.
I don't think Pedro gained anything by painting his emissivity barrier as there was no air space as required to get help from the radiant barrier.
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In the Tahoe house we sprayed a thin layer (~1") of Tigerfoam inside the bays before we insulated with fiberglass. The foam was not too expensive - about $2000 for the foam and a day + for labor - for 3500 square feet. Also we used a layer of Green-Guard 1/4" foam drainboard on the exterior under the stucco. The house is really comfortable with very little heater running time in really cold and stormy conditions.
The use of different insulation barriers seems to have a bigger effect than the R values alone. The exterior Green Guard foam despite its thinness helped a lot (but my water bottles still froze last year when we were wrapped but no insulation). The Tigerfoam seemed to really cut down on the air infiltration. And fiberglass is cheap R value. The finished cabin is thermally better than our fiberglass only insulated temperate climate San Diego house.
I'm pretty sure Tigerfoam is closed cell foam as is the Green Guard. Both are excellent water and air barriers. Some open cell foams prevent water infiltration but most work like a sponge. If you have access to cheap foam, soak it in water to make sure it doesn't pick up too much water - make sure it is an acceptable barrier. The fiberglass wicks up moisture and loses R value when it gets too wet so you want to keep your bays dry.
We always choose closed cell for our wetsuits.
Eric
I don't think Pedro gained anything by painting his emissivity barrier as there was no air space as required to get help from the radiant barrier.
Yeah agreed....I didn't research that one enough before hand....although it does seem from research since then I get about 30% of the effectiveness from the fiberglass side so it isn't a total loss but 70% effective loss sure is disappointing.
Two things I definitely gained - I added a room on the side not long ago and had perfect looking silver OSB so if anything there's no mold...probably wouldn't have been any anyhow so I don't know if it helped that situation or not...the coating sure did keep moisture at bay while we built though......18 months between hanging and painting the OSB and putting the siding on.
The other benefit is I no longer have little voices in my head from all the strong radio waves leaching in through the house....those little people were driving me nuts in the last house.....I go from a Cell Phone signal of 4 bars on the porch to a barely obtainable 1 bar inside the house.....aluminum coating, low-E glazing, metal roof....no more radio wave people in my head causing all sorts of brain cancer.
Pedro the Mule - That last reason explains a lot doesn't it <grin>?
Similar here on the radio and TV waves. I have foil faced behind walls and ceiling at top floor and a steel roof. Thick log walls and thicker ICF foundation. If it weren't for the satellite dish we'd have almost no reception of any kind.
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Pedro
I hear that aluminum foil hats helpwith the little voices. LOL
Rich
I hear that aluminum foil hats help with the little voices. LOL
Now who ever heard of a Mule with anything other than a straw hat with red bandana?
Pedro the Mule - Still stylin' after all these years
pedro
LOL
I generally run furring/strapping over the foam panels and the the finish surface.I don't think Pedro gained anything by painting his emissivity barrier as there was no air space as required to get help from the radiant barrier.
Hi Piffin,
Another question with your experience and research - That valid need for airspace to maximize the benefit of a radiant barrier - If you're furring I suspect you're getting a 3/4" airspace......
Any drawbacks or benefits to an 1 1/2" sealed airspace? (No Vacuum) --- I"ll elaborate after your answer - My mule stubborn brain is working overtime on an idea for a wall that'll perform better than a SIP and is built onsite.
Thanks,
Pedro the Mule - Moderating indoor temps after a hard day at the plow
The trade off is in convection loop increasing as size of the space increases.
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The trade off is in convection loop increasing as size of the space increases.
Is this to suggest somewhat greater potential for condensation?
Pedro the Mule - No water on the fur please
No, just re heat loss. both condensation and convection loops have variable also depending on climate and which stud face they are added to. For instance, with foam on inside, in a cold climate, and more insulation filling the stud space behind it, there will be a minimal practically non-existent conv loop, certainly less than the gain from the radiant barrier.My memory of the stuff on how to do this is that the studies showed that you gain most of the radioant bar with no cover at all, pretty darn good at 2" but with some compromise for conv loss down to about 1/4" or 3/8" where conv loop slows to practically non existent but radiant benfit does too.
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Hi Piffin and of course anyone else,
Well, I've attached my out of the box brain storm. Sort of combining the idea of SIPs, Radiant Barrier & Thermal break from a Mooney Wall.
From left to right - Hardie siding, 1x verticle furring, 2" Polyiso panel radiant barrier facing out to reflect summer heat, 1/2" OSB with rolled on radiant barrier paint on the inside, 2x4's turned width wise 2' oc and also painted w/radiant barrier paint, 2" polyiso with foil facing towards outside, 3/4" osb horizontal, drywall vertical - glued screwed nailed and caulked where appropriate.
I'm figuring any slight potential that water gets into the radiant cavity will not negatively affect the lumber as long as it has a good slathering of the aluminum radiant paint protecting it.
Multi benefits, recoverable cost of materials, great comfort, great sound control, great strength, hang a picture or cabinet "anywhere".
Since it'll be my hobby labor, I'm not concerned with costing that area of construction. I'm looking for abosolute bang for the buck in materials.
So beat up on the idea and let's see how to improve it......
Pedro the Mule - Stubbornly Love work - hate spending $
OK, as an insulated wall it has some nice stuff going on But( you asked for it remember, LOL)I recall some discussion in the past that because Hardi is heavy, they don't approve it over furring. This could be dealt with I think by using long structural lags from GRK. Another concern there would be that load tending to crush the foam there where you are making the thermal break. I'd want to experiment and run some tests before doing a whole house on that issue. tape the joints in the foam on that outer plane too.On the turned studs, I have more major concerns structurally. They tend to bow on that tangent and I prefer straight walls, but the load from above is a major part of my concern. I might be talked into it with 2x3 studs in normal alignment. Not for a two story house in heavy snow country though.On the interior surfaces - I would run the osb vertical to make it part of the structural load package, and then the SR horizontal because that is the normal way and is easier to finish in that alignment.Overall though, you get an assembly that is a nominal R30 more or less, plus assumed radiant bar help.There are easier ways to get that in a way without experimenting.Now if you used 2x3 stud framing, you could stuff that with R11 FG and be ahead of it.so I am going to try a cut section of my refined version to display in a few minutes.
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Somehow the two descriptions suggest a double-SIP wall, with a space between it. Wouldn't that be easier than all the layering, with painting of the framing?
Fro those interested: The Physics of Foilhttp://www.insulation4less.com/tech_foil.aspThey suggest a min of 3/4 inch air gap.
DefinitelyLots of labor here.I'm not recommending, just playing the game and shuffling the deck.Attached here is an improved version that would yield R34 in a ten inch wall. For my money I'd go with ICF and a 12" wall R25 or a real 6" SIP at what almost R40?this has only 1" foam outer to relieve my concern for compression under load of hardi.You want to cut the cards?
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Good Evening Piffin,
Well your latest shuffle does give the potential for double Rad.Bar. which I like but you lost my 3/4" OSB immediately behind the drywall.....now I can only hang my plow shares directly on the furring instead of "anywhere"......heehaw.....
Shuffle and try again.....hehehe
Oh is that google sketchup you made your drawing in?.....I'm just learning it.......
Pedro the Mule - where to put my hooks?
SoftplanJohn makes prettier pictures with his google sketchup of cut shots like that
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'splain them layers to me in your pic and I'll see what I can drum up.
Assuming I'm the John you're referring to, thanks for the compliment. If I'm not the one, than scre.........
:)
siding
furring vertical
foam 1" Thermax
1/2" sheathing
2-3/4" studs ( 2x3 nominal) with cells or FG batts
3/4" sheathing vertical
2" Thermax
furring vertical
1/2" SRRepeating that this is not an assembly recommended, just playing with the ideas.I was in a hurry to get tot he table when I posted that drawing so I did not add those notes detailing it.Am again now to get to post office and town office with permit application so ...catch ya later
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Hi Piffin,
Repeating that this is not an assembly recommended, just playing with the ideas.
Another insane idea here....do vacuum sealed windows ever fail in a laboratory? If not....How about a Low-E thermopane window sandwiched between foam panels and built into the wall permanently so you always have the lab tested effects of a radiant barrier and it's protected from the elements?
Pedro the Mule - 882.67 miles outside of the box
You are getting more crazy by the day, but I love someone thinking outside the box and asking questions.yes they will always fail. It is only a question of how long until then.So how long does it take reflexted heat to get back to you at 882.67 miles outside of the box?
;)
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Yo Piffin,
So how long does it take reflexted heat to get back to you at 882.67 miles outside of the box?
Well, let's see according to the Jethro Bodine ciphering web site, Low-E Windows only lose 15% of their heat, given that being outside the box is the 15% side and because the sun is round and circles work with pie and I get hungry........geeeez I better take a coat and not count on the reflexted heat at the 882.67 mile range......
I could use old hard drives, mirrored drive array sealed in a clean room. Then whatever heat data is lost would be recoverable from another in the array. All I have to do is figure out a method similar to converting album sound to CD 1's & 0's. Of course digital isn't a "warm" as the old vinyl.
Now you're startin' to see how my brain works....no wonder I want to move away from everything known to mankind......I still say we're missing something in the world of super insulating/heating/cooling.
Pedro the Mule - We'll solve perpetual motion next and that doesn't mean a mule in a hamster wheel either.
when can you use 2x3s for a load bearing or exterior wall?
Edited 3/18/2009 5:49 pm ET by john7g
Anytime you are not in an area where they are forbidden.That John Henry thread I did a couple years back was 2x3s and I find it more than I would have expected. Lived in one in CO with 2x3 studding.
Keep in mind that [part of the premise and theory behind using 2x6 24OC is that 2x4 @ 16OC is overbuilt structurally for a one storey house.
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I added exterior as well to the quesiton but you just replied. I'm looking at the wall code and it says no 2x3 studs for bearing or exterior. Am I missing an exception or misintepreting the table?
Hi john7g,
I added exterior as well to the quesiton but you just replied. I'm looking at the wall code and it says no 2x3 studs for bearing or exterior. Am I missing an exception or misintepreting the table?
SIP's don't have "any" studs....Piffin and I were knocking around glue slathering a layer of 1/2" OSB on one side and 3/4" on the other. I had read a thread not long ago about putting a layer of 3/4" plywood directly behind the sheetrock and how it not only gave an osmosis "feel" of quality but it gave the ability to hang anything anywhere on the wall.....why not call it a part of the structural support too?.....sort of a box beam alternative. We bounced around setting up some radiant barrier/low emissivity chamber inside of the framework and building up a foam board thermal break on the ouside then covering it with some level of furring and siding.
In other words we're hoping to recreate the wheel....the difference here is going at this from the angle of getting a maximum return on the materials "regardless" of labor.
Under "normal" circumstances construction labor has to be factored into the overall cost but not in this cenario.
Pedro the Mule - Whew, I think I hauled that one pretty far
Now I'm understanding. Might help better if I read the whole thread much closer than I did. Do you figure this will need an engineer stamp to get it by a BI?
Hi john7g,
Do you figure this will need an engineer stamp to get it by a BI?
Now whoever would think a BI would risk his job making a decision that something's actually overkill?
The house I'm in now?....I actually had to go back to the engineer for a letter.....I have a built up LVL roof support that runs the length of the house.
BR & Kitchen - 1 3/4" x 14" x 14 '
GR - 1 3/4" x 16" x 20'
14' Master BR thru the 20' Great Room thru the 14' Kitchen
Master BR & Kitchen have the same span, foundation, roof etc. identical mirror images on the plan.....the bedroom called for 2 @ 14' & the kitchen 3 @ 14' - GR 3 @ 20'
I found it easier to frame and roof bumping up the BR & Kitchen from 14" to 16" and increasing the kitchen from 2 LVL's to 3 and run 3 48' units all the way through rather than 8 separate ones....clearly far and above what the engineer originally specified....and a bear for 3 men to tote up ladders and slide into place.
But guess who had to get a letter saying it was ok....the engineer had a good chuckle.....didn't charge for the letter.
Pedro the Mule - always over doing it.
does this look similar to what you were thinking?
That's it, now if we reverse engineer it, we have perpetual motion solved. Want your name on the patent too?
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>Want your name on the patent too?<
only if it pays. IIRC the guy who invented the wheel got squat. :)
I remember him. He was a great guy but a little eccentric - Pedro-like. he got run over by a chariot, drunk warrior on the way home for the night. His family got squat out of it too. 'course we all pitched in to help out, but his son ended up running off with a temple priest's daughter and we never heard from him again.
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LOL
talk about irony... killed by his own invention...
Just like Marie Curie
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zactly
Why the 3/4 inch sheathing on the inside? Just to make it SIPS-like?
This is Pedro's idea, but yes. I stood his horizontal osb vertical to give structural loads some seat besides just the whimpystuds
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Hi Piffin,
I remember him. He was a great guy but a little eccentric - Pedro-like.
he got run over by a chariot, drunk warrior on the way home for the night. His family got squat out of it too. 'course we all pitched in to help out, but his son ended up running off with a temple priest's daughter and we never heard from him again.
That explains a lot....I married one of them preachers daughters too! I ain't been da same since.....yeeha!
You know, it wasn't long after that people did actually begin to think about the irony and well after a while you know how irony begins to rust and rust led to the squeaky wheel. That's what killed the dinosaurs. They couldn't stand that nail on the chalkboard screech. The dinosaurs fell over, a sandstorm buried them, they rotted and became petroleum to lubricate the irony squeaky wheel. Thus they sacrificed their lives for us to have a better life. Brings tears to my eyes, I think I'll go out and smear some dead rotten dinosaur guts on my cart wheels.
Pedro the Mule - makes haulin' hay bales a little easier
Hi john7g,
does this look similar to what you were thinking?
Well, that's certainly one alternative but I had a bit different in mind such that the inside OSB/Plywood would directly back the drywall thus I could hang my mule plow harness anywhere.....not just a stud or furring strip.
Siding, Furring, Reflective 2" foam, 1/2" OSB/Ply, Studs w/2" Reflective foam & Alum Paint, 3/4" OSB/Ply, Drywall
The stud cavity would be a bit deeper than the 2x3 stud setting up a reflective chamber, the inside of the stud bay along with the osb would get a good coating of Aluminum Radiant Barrier Paint to assist the Foil Backed foam with radiant retention and would help preserve the wood against mold/moisture in the event any water vapor did happen to get inside.
The first of this idea utilized 2x4's in the same principle turned sideways. The top and bottom plates would be layed flat as usual but Piffin suggested 2/3's to have greater lateral strength.
Confused yet?
Pedro the Mule - Crazy as a tick resting on a lit match
"Well, that's certainly one alternative but I had a bit different in mind such that the inside OSB/Plywood would directly back the drywall thus I could hang my mule plow harness anywhere.....not just a stud or furring strip."7/16" osb may only be able to handle a burro sized harness<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Yo Snort,
7/16" osb may only be able to handle a burro sized harness<G>
That's why the inside layer is 3/4"...for this fat old mule....bigger harness
Pedro the Mule - Ize jez thinks me thin
Hell, 3/4 ought to hold all 20 from the Borax team<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Hi Snort,
all 20 from the Borax team<G>
Not my family.....you'd never get my muley people to work as a team....we all pull different directions.
Hey I love the Carolina Farmhouse on your site....Chapel Hill huhn?....about an hour from me.....Angier.......once I can work all this Zero energy stuff out, I'm retiring in South West Virginia.
Pedro the Mule - Stables are for horses...I'm unstable!
Well, stop by on your way to South West Virginia. Haven't been through Angier since 40 became the short cut to the coast. Heeeey.... you're not the Pedro that had the collection of two cylinder tractors on the side of 55, are you?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Hi Snort,
.... you're not the Pedro that had the collection of two cylinder tractors on the side of 55, are you?
Nah, but I'd sure like to see them, been in the general area for almost 20 years and don't recall having ever seen them???????
Attached is the Farmhouse I built.
Pedro the Mule - Mules are for plowin' tractors are for admiring
Edited 6/23/2009 9:45 am ET by PedroTheMule
Beautiful house, but where's the farm?I'll have to get some remembering help on the tractors' exact whereabouts... incredible chunks of ironhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Hi Snort,
Beautiful house, but where's the farm?
Thank you....the barns next....already put the gravel down....it'll be a gambrel roof with carriage doors.....actually a garage with woodshop and walkup storage.
Well the original farm was split up......equestrian neighborhood....5 miles of horse trails....I feel right at home.....I didn't get but 7 1/2 acres in Neills Creek Farms but I back up to a 2000 acre preserve...all sorts of waterfowl.
Pedro the Mule - Enjoying them 4 legged trails
craap, that looks almost what I've got plans to build for the next house! In the front door to face the stairs and a central hallway?
I'll work on reconfiguring that drawing if I can get some time. I do SU in lieu of watching TV lately.
Hi john7g,
craap, that looks almost what I've got plans to build for the next house! In the front door to face the stairs and a central hallway?
Floor Plans attached......In the front door, dining on right with pair of french glass doors, passing through the entryway opens up to a cathedral ceiling with stairs to the right backed by a catwalk overlooking the greatroom, 1st floor master, large wrap around kitchen with home office desk for the missus, butlers pantry and walk in pantry, a little further over is a sunroom, 2 BRs upstairs with private sinks and shared tub & toilet, plus full walkout basement overlooking a small pond.
Made a few minor changes.....one of the upstairs bedroom got extended about 4 extra feet over the kitchen area to make room for a walkin closet and alcove.
Lower level shows walls at the workroom not in line with the storage room.....don't know why that happened....they are inline with each other...as a matter of fact every wall runs right on up to the roof......kept the foundation work very simple, cost low and sq. ft. maximum....4600...... $86k including appliances, a grade up in insulation, wood floors and metal roof....land was extra......
How's that compare to your floorplan?
Pedro the Mule - A real cheap A$# Hee Haw
Edited 6/23/2009 9:44 am ET by PedroTheMule
at least the interior is different...
Hi john7g,
at least the interior is different...
radically different from the traditional farmhouse and southern plantation.....as contemporary as the floorplan is.....it has Australian Yellow Knotty pine floors, stone fireplace collected when we excavated the basement....creamy white quartz.....6" oak baseboards, chair railing, wainscotting in the dining with tray ceiling and 2 corner hutches built in, everything is stain grade trim, the only room with full painted trim is the sunroom.....went for a much airier feel and cut back on the quality of wood in that room......I ain't paintin' nothing worth stainin'
Furnishings are predominantly family airlooms with a couple of quality anchor pieces such as the double reclining deep brown leather sofa....bold yet simple rustic mass
So, all in all it has a very eclectic mix giving a rich heritage antique look and warmth while being modern enough to provide 21st century creature comforts. Rooms are large and inviting, maximizing space, limiting any actual hallways, yet while seated, you face the lower outer walls giving a cozier feel.
This is my home office....pics are from 12/08.....almost done.....cabinet doors are up and I've hung the 100+ yr old stain glass door I have been entrusted to care for
http://finehomebuilding.taunton.com/item/4216/update-to-ever-seen-a-suspended-ceiling-like-this
The retirement mountain home will be visually far more rustic but hope to have the most modern comfort features available.
Pedro the Mule - Doing all I can to leave my hoof prints on my little corner of the world
Hey John,
very nice... Is that sketchup? if so can you post it in .skp format ?
Yeah, here it is. The exported .jpgs were doctored just a little from the scenes of 3 - 5. The leader lines went through the wall components so I overdrew the lines in Paint Shop. All else is the same. Keep in mind you'd need an engineer to do this in real life.
7g
Thanks John,
I really like your presentaion style...I easily opened it with free sketchup.
have you posted other drawings in .skp format?
thanks!
Not many models but take a look at these 2 recent threads: 117869.1 and 117440.1. Look around for posts by Gene Davis; he does some very good stuff in SU too.
>I easily opened it with free sketchup.<
You can do all that I did there with the free version, nothing stopping you. The small file size is due to the use of components for any repeating item. Play with the styles tab. Use the scens tab to save good view angles and contrasting but brighter colors for the components. The view angles are usually close to one of the standard Isometric view found on the tool bar in SU. Find/DL different fonts for your computer although I think the Blueprint style came with Chief Architect and I haven't seen it anywhere else.
Have fun.
recreating the wheel and solving perpetual motion at the same time would let us roll uphill without using fuel. That would save enough energy that insulation for the house would not be needed
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what you missed is not all of us always have to build to code
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