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Opinions on inset cabinet doors?

SCaseria | Posted in General Discussion on April 14, 2005 05:02am

I’m making some shaker-style cabinet doors for our kitchen. I’m planning having them sit flush with the face. Currently, the doors are of an overlay type (they’ve been painted and painted some more and just aren’t looking so good).

But in looking in various publications, I don’t see many inset doors. I like the look of them, but is there a reason I don’t see more of them?

Thanks,

6milessouth

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  1. zendo | Apr 14, 2005 05:18pm | #1

    Inset doors are a higher degree of difficulty, and take a bit more time to make.  There can be benefits and they can look a bunch nicer depending on design. 

    As for overlay, since I believe what  you are saying is that you already have them, they also shouldnt be a problem.... things that I think of off had are- Do they fit fully under the counter edge?  and Will the handles (if they have them) fit as well.  Its amazing how we get so used to the tolerances of things.  Doors in the way where they werent before, if even outjutting by 3/4 of an inch can throw you off... then add 1 1/2-2in handles and you are bumping them often.

    Just thoughts.

    -zen

  2. User avater
    JDRHI | Apr 14, 2005 05:25pm | #2

    What publications are you looking at?

    Full inset doors are much more typical on high end cabinetry. There`s much less room for error.

    If I understand correctly, you`re rehabbing some existing cabinetry. Not only do the openings need to be almost perfectly square, the cabinets need to be dead on plumb and level.

    The reason you don`t see much of them is because far more people want the look of quality ("solid oak" doors, brass hardware, granite countertops), than the actual quality itself.

    You`re unlikely to find full inset doors on anything other than custom cabinetry. With an average size kitchens worth of even semi-custom cabinets, you`re looking at a $20,000 bill. Figure at least another 10 grand for the custom cabs, and you can understand why folks are willing to forego the extra expense in order to put it towards something else....like stainless steel appliances.

    Without seeing the existing cabinets, I can`t truly make a recomendation for you, but plan on spending alot of time and effort trueing up those old cabs in order to install inset doors.

    Best of luck.

    ATTENTION FELLOW BREAKTIME MEMBERS:

    If you`d like to discuss topics other than home building, come on down to the Woodshed Tavern. Great bunch of guys and gals letting off a little steam about everything and anything. Its not a special club, but.....as of Monday, March 14, the Tavern folder will go behind an access wall. Only those who request access to this folder by contacting [email protected] will be able to view and participate in discussions there.

    1. davidmeiland | Apr 14, 2005 05:38pm | #3

      I've installed new flush inset doors into existing cabinets. It's really not that big a deal. Get a framing square and a 4 foot level and check the faceframes out carefully before deciding to proceed.

      If the existing faceframes are reasonably flat then all that's necessary is to order/make to doors slightly oversize and trim them to the particular opening. Using a router or belt sander makes that easy enough. In some cases the opening and/or door will not be flat enough, and you either adjust the hinges for it or try another door. You could also un-install the cabinet and re-install it perfectly plumb.

      You can use euro hinges and build up behind the mounting plates to get them where you need them, or buy the leaf hinges that are designed for inset without mortising. Or, of course, buy regular leaf hinges and mortise them in.

    2. User avater
      CapnMac | Apr 14, 2005 07:40pm | #14

      you don`t see much of them is because far more people want the look

      I have to disagree, a little, from too much experience in the cab biz. 

      The factory does not, generally, want to have to build doors to the tolerances full inset means.

      Though, most, if asked, will say things like it makes the door openings much smaller, which complicates eyebrow and cathedral-arched doors a lot harder to mass produce (doors usually being the most time-consuming and priciest individual cabinet component to make in a factory setting).

      Full inset, also does not lend itself to frameless construction very well.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

  3. User avater
    PeterJ | Apr 14, 2005 05:50pm | #4

    As zendo said, higher difficulty, more time, more money, more craftmanship...a dwindling resource. Tight clearances look best, but harder.

    Some things to consider:

    Are your openings square... a pain to fit if not. Depending on hinge choice and clearances, you may need to mortise hinges.

    How will the doors be stopped and held shut? You probably have self closing hinges now. Willl need mag catches or  maybe Euro hinge.

    It sounds like you're using existing cabinet boxes. How will additional exposure of face frame look? Most flush door installs have smaller stiles and rails.

    Is it worth it to you to go the extra mile? Overlay doors on face frames are very forgiving of inconsistancies in old boxes, and simply replacing the doors can make a huge appearance difference. Say a nice white paint on box with a natural finish on maple shakers...pretty cost effective.

    Something like this.

    View Image

    PJ

    Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

    1. SCaseria | Apr 14, 2005 06:10pm | #5

      Thanks so far for the advice. As for hinges, I thought about the Euros, but mounting them in the cabinets might be more of a headache then I'm willing to take on. The non-mortise leaf hinges are probably the way I'll go. Will have to see how well a trial door stays closed, and then decide about catches.At this point, we want to "refresh" the look of the kitchen without going to a full blown. I think new doors, fresh paint, simple crown and some new counters will do the trick.Any other wisdom before I plunge in?Sixmilessouth

      1. ripmeister | Apr 14, 2005 06:29pm | #6

        I'm not sure why some have said insets would be more expensive.  The basic door is the same whether inset or overlay.  I agree with the box being square issues.  I've done this many times and I would go with the Euro hinges.  I like Blum hinges.  One of the advantages to these with an inset is that they have three way adjustability.  There is a specific hinge for traditional face frame cabinets.  They are probably a little more expensive especially when you factor in having to buy the 32mm forstner bit for drilling hoes in to the back of the doors but I think they are worth it.  I assume that the shelves in your cabinets come out to the back side of the face frames so having stops for the doors is really not an issue.  The shelf front edge will act as a stop.  In my experience the most crucial part of building your insets is making sure that your frame and panel construction is dead flat.  Any twist will be obvious and near impossible to rectify as one corner of the door will sit proud of the front plane of the face frames.  Finally, your question is very timely in that a recent edition of Fine Woodworking has an article on fitting inset doors, including what to do if the openings aren't perfect which they rarely are.

        1. User avater
          PeterJ | Apr 14, 2005 06:39pm | #7

          I'm not sure why some have said insets would be more expensive.

          That's assuming you're hiring it done. It will take longer, but if it's your time, perhaps it's no issue.PJ

          Everything will be okay in the end.  If it's not okay, it's not the end. 

          1. ripmeister | Apr 14, 2005 06:48pm | #9

            Thats what I was refering to, just materials cost, not labor, as it sounded like this was a DIY job.

        2. SCaseria | Apr 14, 2005 06:41pm | #8

          Thanks. I'll check out the article. The only euro hinges I found that mounted to the face frame didn't really accomodate inset doors. I'll do a little more searching, as it would solve any potential issues with staying closed and allow me to get a tighter fit all around. Do you have a link to the Blums you're thinking of?

          1. ripmeister | Apr 14, 2005 06:59pm | #11

            I've always purchased them at my local Rockler store.  They have an online catalogue I believe.  I'll check into it as well.  I agree w/ Jaybird about traditional mortised hinges but I see Kitchen cabinets  no matter how nice looking as utilitarian.  I would also reiterate the adjustability of the euros which is a big plus for insets that you don't get with mortised hinges.

          2. SCaseria | Apr 14, 2005 11:19pm | #15

            Thanks, I checked out the hinges you mentioned and did some thinking and calculating. I think though we'll be happy with some I found in the Lee Valley catalog. They're non-mortise hinges and are only 1/16 thick, so the tolerances won't be that bad (not perfect, though). If I were building the doors and boxes from scratch, I'd do the traditional mortises.But since I'm dealing with 30 year-old cabinets that have been painted a few times (and they may not be perfectly plumb/square) I'll obey the law of diminishing returns and do the best with what I've got in terms of skills/time/patience from the wife.

          3. User avater
            basswood | Apr 15, 2005 05:29am | #16

            Here is a photo of my first attempt at inset doors (from a project this winter). Built a set of these to match an original cabinet in this 100 yr old kitchen.They weren't too hard to do, but I gave myself a little extra room around the doors.

          4. SCaseria | Apr 15, 2005 04:11pm | #17

            Looks good. Thanks for the photo. So did you just measure and then make your doors, or did you measure, make the door and trim as needed to get an equal tolerance around door and frame?

          5. ripmeister | Apr 14, 2005 07:10pm | #12

            I believe these are the ones I have used most often alhtough it has been awhile.

            http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/findprod.cfm?&sku=2281

             

          6. ripmeister | Apr 14, 2005 07:14pm | #13

            sorry I neglected to say that it was part # 55941.

        3. User avater
          JDRHI | Apr 14, 2005 06:51pm | #10

          I'm not sure why some have said insets would be more expensive.  The basic door is the same whether inset or overlay.

          Not the doors themselves....cabinetry with inset doors are more expensive.

          But as someone else mentioned, DIY will not necessarily add to cost, but rather time.

          As for hinges....personal opinion....but I prefer traditional mortised on insets.

          ATTENTION FELLOW BREAKTIME MEMBERS:<!----><!---->

          If you`d like to discuss topics other than home building, come on down to the Woodshed Tavern. Great bunch of guys and gals letting off a little steam about everything and anything. Its not a special club, but.....as of Monday, March 14, the Tavern folder will go behind an access wall. Only those who request access to this folder by contacting [email protected] will be able to view and participate in discussions there.

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