As a tangent to the thread elsewhere on this forum, the one about marking out, some got discussing this.
Mike Smith allows as how 16 is a hammer or forearm length, so there we have one theory.
What’s yours?
If you are doing much remodeling and tearing into framing done before the advent of plywood sheathing, tell us what kind of centers you are seeing. Plywood entered the building markets in the wave of housebuilding that followed WWII.
My theory is that it came about as pretty much a universal standard when 4×8 sheetgoods came into play, 16 being a module of 48.
After all, my old framing square doesn’t have any special color or tick mark at the 16s.
Imagine an alternate universe where 16 inches equals a foot, then design a framing square for that universe. How would things change?
Replies
There was a LONG thread about this a while back. (Late 2005, I think)
You might find it if you searched. But there was no definite answer.
I think it just seemed good at the time. Then they made plywood to fit a 16" center later on.
I think it's because 16 divides evenly into cubits.Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Here's my experience in an 1835 (no idea of previous dates of remuddling. As to centers, pick one.
View Image
Gene, I know I've found 16'' centers in bldgs prior to sheet goods I think. When do you figger ply was starting to be used in housing? Which war spawned it's use?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The first plywood plants were started up around 1913, one near Portland, OR, and others in British Columbia. The focus at the start was on hardwood veneer panels for interior and furniture uses.
Not a whole lot happened for the next 25 years, until WWII caused the need for plywood in aircraft structures and modular housing units. It wasn't until the building boom that followed the war, that softwood plywoods came into play in US housing.
Ever heard some of our crusty colleagues here say they wouldn't use or trust a building material or method that hadn't been around for at least 100 years?
Plywood was a major factor during WW2 for boats and what not,
After the war, a big concern for managers and economists was to find uses to keep factories up and running and people employed. The GIs returning needed homes for the families they would raise and plywoood allowed for faster tighter construction
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for the families they would raise plywoood
this made sense...
I'm gonna go take a nap...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's like this:
God disspatched Noah to build the Ark. Noah went to Home Despot for material. The 18 year old associate said to place the ribs 16" apart. Now you know the rest of the story.
It's part of the modular coordination of building materials. Almost all building materials in the US are made to fit into a modular scheme, the basic unit of which is 4 inches. This was a deliberate, planned program that was developed in 1938 by a group of engineers and industrialists who later became The American Standards Institute.
All the wall studs, joists and rafters in my 1913 house are on 16" centers so it certainly pre-dates sheet goods. They actually were pretty consistent on the spacing, too.
Off topic, but the foundation/basement walls in my house are poured concrete, which must have been a pretty advanced construction technique back then.
Stuart, in my 1915 house, all studs and joists are spaced on 16" centers, except where some hack remodeled things using a random number generator for stud spacing. The basement walls are also poured concrete.zak
"so it goes"
I'm finding a sort of rubbery 16 in this 1926 house. Some walls average 16, some 16 1/4, even 16 1/2".
Before there were 4x8 sheet goods, there was lath and plaster. The lath seems to have been delivered to the job site in roughly 4 ft. lengths, or just a bit longer. The lathers would put it up with one end centered on a stud, then trim the other end to a stud center with a hatchet. Sometimes they came up a touch short of reaching a stud, so they'd scab a couple strips of lath on the side of it.
When sheet goods came into widespread use after WWII, accurate spacing became necessary. Plywood dates back to 1905, and sheetrock to 1908, but they weren't used much before 1945.
Ultimately, the decision must have been driven by cost effectiveness. What spacing does it take to make a strong enough wall, using the least possible labor and material, in most cases? Start with that, and pick a nice round easy number a little lower.
-- J.S.
Which war spawned it's use?
the foundation/basement walls in my house are poured concrete, which must have been a pretty advanced construction technique back then.
The Roman Centaurions used plywood shields. The Colluseum was built with concrete.
That should satisfy them old geezers around here that don't trust any material newer than 100 years.SamT
> The Roman Centaurions used plywood shields.
Yes, up to 471 AD, when the Emperor Anthemius switched to OSB as a cost cutting measure. The empire fell in 476.... ;-)
-- J.S.
LOL!
Just think what they could have done with Advantec - no more hiding from the rain!
Forrest
"Yes, up to 471 AD, when the Emperor Anthemius switched to OSB as a cost cutting measure. The empire fell in 476.... ;-) "
That was funny. I kinda choked on my sandwich.
"The empire fell in 476...."
I'm guessing humidity?Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Nope, barbarians from the North.
-- J.S.
"Yes, up to 471 AD, when the Emperor Anthemius switched to OSB as a cost cutting measure. The empire fell in 476.... ;-) "What happened- did it rain or something?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yeah, rain's why I recommended Advantec
Forrest
No, not rain -- It was global warming. They sweated so much it dissolved the early version of OSB. ;-)
-- J.S.
Having Centaurians in the Roman army must have been a real boon, since they would effectively have constituted a cavalry force without the expense of saddles, bridles, and other equipment needed to allow mere men to ride horses. An army of Centaurians would also have been able to to march faster than an army of Centurians, who had just two legs with which to walk. Come to think of it, the standard of 16-inch "studs" might have originated with Centaurians for reasons having nothing to do with building materials. :)BruceT
which must have been a pretty advanced construction technique back then.
Yes and no. The Parthenon in Rome is a poured (cast-in-place no less) concrete structure. Poured concrete has been around a long time.
Economical for-residential construction ready-mix concrete has varied, though.
Amazing is the reaction I always get when I see concrete that was very likely all site-mixed, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yes and no. The Parthenon in Rome is a poured (cast-in-place no less) concrete structure. Poured concrete has been around a long time.
Very true, although (at least from what I've seen in old houses around here) it wasn't very common at all in Minnesota until probably sometime after WWII.
"Yes and no. The Parthenon in Rome is a poured (cast-in-place no less) concrete structure. Poured concrete has been around a long time."
Dude, that's really cool. Didn't know that. How about the Parthenon in Athens? How was that one built? :)
Hint: http://www.ancient-greece.org/architecture/parthenon.html
Now stay after class and write 100 times on the chalkboard:
"The Parthenon is in Athens and was built out of STONES"
DG/Builder
Edited 8/4/2006 11:09 pm ET by dgbldr
Yeah, but the Pantheon **is** built from concrete.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Think he was talking about the colon-I-seum In Rome.
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Think he was talking about the colon-I-seum In Rome.
No, DanH beat you to the punch. He confused the Pantheon with the Parthenon. Similar names. The Pantheon was in fact concrete and was the largest free-standing dome ever built. It remained the largest for the next 1,000 years!
The Coliseum, on the other hand, is a very interesting building. They flooded the arena to conduct naval battles as a spectator sport and then let the water out for other events. With no pumps and very primitive water "gates". And yes, it was partially made of concrete.
He confused the Pantheon with the Parthenon. Similar names
Was also relating (under separate cover) a story about the Elgin marbles, which are from the Parthenon, while making flippant comments about the Roman Pantheon.
Elgin 'occurs' every so often as the locals there, just east of Austin, refer to their town as EL-Jin.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Elgin isn't just east of Austin -- it's right up there close to Millville.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
"Elgin isn't just east of Austin -- it's right up there close to Millville."
I was thinking the same thing, although anyone not from SE Minnesota probably wouldn't understand. :-)
Elgin isn't just east of Austin
The folks who live in "ail-gen" would be shocked to hear that. Already riles them to ba called "East Manor" (which is MAY-nor, locally).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I think it may be simpler than some theories put forth.
16 inches on center with (actual) 2 inch studs means 18 inches edge to edge which is 1/2 yard, otherwise known as a Cubit.
Now with just a simple Cubit stick, you too can layout studs like a pro.
Many of the homes built around here after the sawmills came in (roughly 1830-1840) do seem to follow this standard, but not all. After 1870 or so, it becomes quite common. Before the sawmills you see the hand-hewn stuff and much more random techniques. Many post and beam buildings have 'stud' boards on flat, often with irregular spacing, but of course these were not structural.
I suspect that perhaps the prevalence of later Victorian houses built based upon pattern books may have contributed to a defacto standard.
18 inches edge to edge which is 1/2 yard, otherwise known as a Cubit
Careful, now, you'll give away the secret to the diamonds next . . . <g>
Also, a cubit started out as a "human" measurement. A cubit was 6 Hands, somewhere around 16-18" (the Royal Cubit is 7 hands, which makes it a handy unit to cipher with if you are using 22/7 = pi).
Yards get complicated. A clothyard is closer to two feet than three. I wnat to remember that Egyptian yards are an "arm" long,--which would tie back to your reference, a cubit being about a forearm long, near "half an arm." Which would give you a "fathom" of two arms wide, too; or four cubits or so.
Which makes as much sense as weighing things versus a stone (which is what sets a "long ton"). Or measuring ship's cargo capacities in "tunnes," a wine vat of about 100 cf--which is used today as "deadweight tonnage." (The cooperage used to fill the spaces between ship & tunne are why Vats, Barrels, Kegs & the like have such unique volumes.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac,
Deadweight tonnage in a ship is weight. It's the weight of cargo and includes the weight of fuel, water, stores and crew.
There's a whole lot of other tonnage measurements, including GRT, Gross Register Tonnage, and NRT, Net register Tonnage, which are, as you state, measurements of volume of certain spaces in the ship and are expressed as tons of 100 cubic feet each.
I might be worng about details here. I last worked with such things in the 1970's.
Ron
snow...
<<<<
16 inches on center with (actual) 2 inch studs means 18 inches edge to edge which is 1/2 yard, otherwise known as a Cubit.>>>
no , way, jose
16" OC = 16" edge to edge, not 18"
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
<G>
guess how i know thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Because it is , Doesnt make any difference what thinkness. Its still going to have the same repeat.
Gosh Uncle Mike < I learned that hanging paper .
Tim
I think he's referring to 18" from edge to opposite edge, ie going from left to right from left edge of the first stud to the right edge of the second stud is 18". Or 16" OC plus the 1" from center to the outside edge of each of the 2 studs totals 18".
"no , way, jose
16" OC = 16" edge to edge, not 18"
The other edge.
I thought the cubit was based on the average forearm length and IIRC, we covered the Bill Cosby 'Noah and the Ark' bit in the previous thread.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
76876.34 in reply to 76876.11
I thought the cubit was based on the average forearm length and IIRC, we covered the Bill Cosby 'Noah and the Ark' bit in the previous thread.
Roar
Clearly, there was no compelling reason to use 16-inch stud spacing before the introduction of plywood, drywall, insulation batts and other materials that worked with that spacing. Yet, as others have reported, this spacing often appeared before the introduction of the modern materials that fit it. My theory on that is the introduction of the steel square in the 1830s, which had a 16-in tongue, provided a convenient way to lay out the studs in a neat, consistent and structurally sound way.
Sounds right to me. Thanks.
I renovated a 1920's house a while back that had a poured concrete foundation. We later found out that the rough-cut 1x8's that they used for forms were then used to sheath the exterior walls. We had to cut in three new windows and about went broke buying sawzall blades to get through all that leftover concrete.
Kimball
That was normal. If they weren't used to sheath the outside, they weree used for subfloor.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Carpenters used to be thinner than they are now, and 16" allowed them to walk through the framing easily. Now of course there's lots of pressure to go to 24" spacing, for some reason.
In the old days we didnt have 16 centers here .
When drywall first appeared it was 7/16s believe it or not.
Building specs on 1/2 inch drywall was 16 inches .
same with any 7/16s board product.
Paneling was 1/4 and then less.
Most of the old stuff that was double lathed was between 24 to 32. Ship lap stacked on both sides with cheese cloth and paper .
But now that WAS in Arkansas .
Timothy
I have it on good authority that the first Navajo hogans were framed on 16" centers. :)
Yo, Imhotep -- How big were those sandstone blocks you used on the Khufu job? ;-)
-- J.S.