I am a rough-in framer in the midwest. This morning I had my first osha inspection. Thank goodness we were wearing hard hats. He could have hit me for everything under the sun (not because I run an unsafe site, but I’ve heard many stories), but he “only” hit me for a few. Mainly fall arrest.
My question is, as a subcontractor what if I don’t pay the fine, this time it may not bankrupt me, but what happens the next time. I will fix what he has cited, but most regs are a joke. I can’t stay in business if I have to learn all there regs too and comply, building a house to the everchanging IRC is hard enough.
Don’t get me wrong, I value safety and my employees more that I do a profit. But if I can’t make money, my kids, and those of my well paid crew will suffer.
OK, I’m sure this will spur conversation, but back to my original ?, what if I don’t pay – say close my corp up for good.
Thanks
Replies
First fact of life with OSHA is that if they stop on the job, they WILL find something to write you up for.
You got my curiosity up. how is it that you say that " most regs are a joke." and then admit that you don't know most of them? That strikes me as saying that most girls in Texas are dumb blondes just before admitting that you have never been to Texas or met a Texichick
Anyway, the idea behind a fine is to help you learn. The fine is not a joke. Worker safety is not a joke. you have pointed out in your post that money is the most important value on your jobs, so the OSHA dudes are simply speaking to you in a language that you can understand.
When a teacher chastised you in school, did you learn from it or did you just drop out? This is the same kind of thing.
When you say "next time" it leaves the impression that you have no intention of trying to rectify the situations that led to being written up. please tell me it ain't so.
As far aas what they can do to you if you ignore them...I don't know precisely. but you can be either a role model or an object lesson for the rest of us. 'course, it might be hard for you to fill us in if they come and take your PC away with the truck and tools...
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Many years ago I ran into a similiar situation......working as a sub to the GC. You do have appeal rights but............don't expect much and remember, you are dealing with people that, at times, can be VERY narrow minded.
Having said that, in the past ten years I have been on two jobs where a site related death occured. One, ruled a freak accident by OSHA and the other health related but.....probably exacerbated by local climate at the time.
OSHA's rules, while somewhat on the ridculous side at times, are there to protect everyone.
Best Regards
FD here's a reply I made from a previous discussion about my dealing and remedy for OSHA fines.
I've been hit twice in the last six months for 3500$ a pop. Both times it was fall protection. After the fine the OSHA guy gave me a number for a free consultation service. I didn't call, I guess I have an authority complex, strange for a nail banger, but when I got nailed again I called. A guy came out walked the job showed me things I needed to do and said he'd be back to check in a couple of weeks, where upon we'd repeat the process. He said now I am working with him and would not be fined by others or him. He just wanted to help me make a safe job. If you have a big job this is the way to go. Call them at ground break and get them on your side, Make them a friend and not a worry. The people who fined us seemed like all they wanted to do was give a fine, believe me they find something, As we know, at least I hope I can say that, some days its easy to comply others near impossible. Hard hats are necessary when someone is in danger of a head injury from something falling. They have to witness a violation. In the course of a day maybe most of the day your ok but as soon as someone walks out of or around the building under any situation with someone working above, he's in violation. So if you need one its best to just get in the habit of wearing one. The steel toe issue is nothing to worry about As far as I know replacement ends are ok as long as they are grounded. The cords might be inspected for nicks in the insulating skin. For us its fall protection. we working on a building 60 ft high, with four mezzanine levels. Scaffold with two lifts need a hand rail. A step ladder can't be leaned, ever. The six foot rule of thumb mentioned is good advice. Safety rails between 36" and 42" with another rail midway. Safety glasses: I used to never wear them. Now I wear them every day all day. But again just because you not wearing them does not mean your in violation. The violation must be witnessed. On an open ended deck, you can be a hundred feet, any distance back from the edge and if you do not have a harness your in violation. We use these harness's that have some stretch, I can't think of the name now, but by Miller, and we have some 11' and 9' retractable lanyards. All this and almost every day I see my people in violation. I also hear people complain, "They (OSHA) are making things impossible." but right behind me I"m watching a job go up built by Clark Const. and the have a load of guys like 30 or 40, I have 11, and they are never in violation. So I figured I can make the transition. At this point four months after starting to really try to be compliant with OSHA for the first time all I can say is some days are easier than others.
There are also scaffold manuals, and being that you working in residential single family homes I've heard but am not sure that there are exemptions. Go to the hearing with pictures showing you have remedied the violation. They cut our fine in half. Watch out they got us twice.
Edited 7/15/2005 5:42 am ET by quicksilver
Our state osha people say residential construction "people" feel that the laws of physics do not apply to them.
they show pix of people working in deep trenches without shoring/trench boxes or on roofs w/o fall protection. I have contested 5 Federal citations in industry. won 2 lost 2 one was a tie
Good post man. Please try to hit return about every five lines or so, much easier to read. When my old eyes blink I can't remember what line I was on :-). Not sure whether it is the eyes or memory.
RASCONCI've learned that technique a little better since I posted that. I just dug that out of an older forum because I thought it applied.I will honor your request.
Thanks, was not zinging you. Like I said good post, it keeps me from understanding or comprehending if I have trouble figuring out where I am. I am sure my old English teacher would rap my knuckles for paragraph composition but she had never heard of Breaktime. Notice how hard eddiec9's is to read. Great info but packed too tight.
Cheers, Bob
I've been thinking on this one some more today. I have some observations.In my thirty-some years in this industry, I have been close to three deaths, dozens of accidents, and countless near misses.it may be just my experience, but as I recall, all of the deaths were very probably due to the condition of the 'victim'-- having taken recreational drugs recently, or from being on the job when home in bed with the flue would have been wiser.Almost all of the accidents have been for one of three reasons, or a combiunation of two of them;working too many hours and getting punch drunk, or losing the alertness edge that we need to have for dangerous workbosses pushing too hard for more production - Faster, harder, fasterlack of training in what can happen.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Been there, done that, got the fine...:-( Fall protection was the main one, and then he tacked on a few more. As the GC I think it was 4 things I got sited for. The subcontractor got sited for the same items.
In NC they give you a a chance to go in discuss your violations. I did not protest the violations. I just scheduled a conference, prior to the fine being due, and went down there. Mind you that I went into the meeting with the attitude that I just wanted to learn more, and had a few germane questions. When I went down there I brought some evidence that I had taken steps to make a safer workplace. Posted safety signs in english and Spanish, held brief safety meetings with the guys getting them to sign a piece of paper saying they heard the info and brought receipts for new safety equipment that was purchased. The OSHA unit super (or whatever he was) erased one of the violations and reduced the other fines to where I only ended up paying $200 - this was a first offense. He gave me a free NC OSHA bible too which is, BTW, very difficult to read.
Since then I send each of my subs who does dangerous stuff - work at heights, use nail guns, etc, a brief letter mentioning a few of the most common infractions, and saying that he is responsible for OSHA fines. The last item is only partially true, but it all gets their attention. I also post signs on site and tell workers that they must use fall protection, must wear hardhats when guys are working above, must use their ladders properly, etc. I don't keep after them, I just make sure I tell them. Sometimes I see them wearing safety harnesses with no safety line but I usually look the other way.
I didn't quite understand >> My question is, as a subcontractor what if I don't pay the fine, this time it may not bankrupt me, but what happens the next time... << but will say, from all I've heard, you will loose if you try to contest the citations. For starters, I'll bet the onsite OSHA inspector took pics. Also, as the direct employer of the workers, it is your responsibility to supply the safety equipment. Save the receipts too.
We had a long thread about this maybe 6 months back, and several guys were spouting off about over regulation, and their right not to wear a motorcycle helmet ;-), but the bottom line is that you are going to have to make an effort to comply if you want to stay in business. For starters you need to alter your work methods to make things a bit safer. For example, as a framer, you need to put a 2x4 bar across each open window hole as soon as the walls are raised. Temp railings around open stair holes too. Temp railings on open steps. These items take 5 minutes and cost you the framer nothing except the bit of time. When guys go on the roof to nail off sheathing or put on the black paper they have to use whatever fall protection is required in your state. Some states only require toe boards, mine requires harneses. Your guys have to wear hardhats. Have a weekly 5 minute safty meeting. This will at least put the word safety in the their thought process. Try to keep it light, and ban your guys from using the phrase "hey, watch this!!!". The expenses incured seem like a bummer, but it's minor compaired to a 2nd or 3rd time fine, and way minor compaired to a serious injury and/or a law suit.
Good luck,
Edited 7/15/2005 8:09 am ET by Matt
"I will fix what he has cited, but most regs are a joke. I can't stay in business if I have to learn all there regs too and comply, building a house to the everchanging IRC is hard enough."
A friend of mine died because of a job site accident. Regulations are no joke. My friend did not want to die, and i guess this is why it is called an accident.
Don't stay in business if you don't want to learn and follow rules and have a safe worksite.
You might try using the fines to pay for safety improvements. Sometimes OSHA is willing to do that as opposed to collect the money directly. Probably depends on what kind of mood they are in - which could be directly related to your attitude.
You've gotten good advice and keen analysis from others.
I'll underline the "get them on your side."
I did reg comp for large banks years ago. When you show them you're truly interested in understanding and following the regs, they're much more likely to cut you breaks.
And less likely to pop in for an inspection: "Hey, that guy pays attention to this stuff; let's check out that other constructiuon site down the road."
Go to any seminars they offer - take them up on consultation offers; ask them questions. Etc
And, kiss up. Create the impression that you think what they are doing is very important. (It is, even if you don't think so.)
"what if I don't pay the fine"
FD,
You mean, what if they notify your insurance company and they cancel your policy or raise your premiums?
You mean, what if they seize your assets?
You mean, what if they attach your bank accounts?
You mean, what if they stop your job?
You mean, what if other contractors hear about it and decide working with you isn't worth the risk to their reputations?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Appeal, then appeal, then try to settle. Keep in mind that the same goverment (just a different agency) that hired the OSHA inspectors also hire the TSA inspectors, they MAY be trying to do their job well, but they don't know it all. If it keeps bothering you take the time to move to Florida and get Lic down here (will only take a year or so), I have never seen or heard of an OSHA inspector on a residential job site in the 18 years that I have been here. I think OSHA thinks that if they start here they would never leave. Yesterday I drove by no less than six roofing site and 8 truss sites, GC think restraint devices are something you need if you are going to straint again.
Think of all the jobs in industiral plants that pay good money , that you cannot get due to bad or no safety program. you can bill for safety.
Diesel, a couple of things, first so you know I am a safety consultant. I have people call all the time with the question you just asked. Let me tell you the biggest mistake you can make is not to pay the fine, or at least respond to it. OSHA will find you. When they do if you are still in violation your fine just became willfull. The fine for a willfull violation can start at 70,000, yes that is US dollars. The others have given the advice I would give. After you correct or at least have a plan to correct the violations call and ask for an informal meeting to discuss the fines and any possibility of any reductions. The best thing you can do is find the exact OSHA reg and spell out in writing how you will correct it. If you bought equipment bring reciepts. If you have a plan have it written out. Give specifics, i.e. we will have new fall protection equipment by so and so date. Then stick to the plan if you don't you are worse off than when you started. If you need to find the regs. go to the osha website, http://www.osha.gov It is one of the largest websites in the world. You can find all kinds of information and help there. One thing I would tell everyone, get a small camera. If an OSHA inspector comes out anything he takes a picture of you take a picture of. Two reasons, sometimes worksites get confused you may be fined for something you didn't do. The other is if you take a picture of the violation and then have a picture of the solution or your compliance it is much easier to believe that you are making an effort. OSHA can be pain, that said no one likes to fight a battle everytime they need something done. So when an inspector gets someone that works with him instead of some one that fights him they will be more willing to give advice instead of fines.
Pay the fines, as long as they were valid infractions. If in doubt, you should be able to get info off the 'net concerning OSHA regs or possibly you know a larger GC that might have a guide to the regs. Safety is a big issue and I'd take it seriously.
We lost a man a few years ago in a 4 foot deep trench, this was too shallow to even be looked at by them, but it taught us all a lesson that just because the trench isn't 20 foot deep doesn't mean it can't hurt/kill you . Take their words seriously, it's just another issue to deal with....and a couple minor infractions are far far better than getting some "willful" violations/fines piled on, if that happens you'll wish you paid attention sooner.....
If one of those "joke" regs are ignored by you and something happens to you/one of your workers, are you prepared to go calling to the guys wife and telling her how come her husband isn't coming home?? It's a situation I never want to be in for sure....
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
OK, lots of good advice and some critical comments. Most of my issues were fall protection. I take offense at any implication that I don't want to obey the law, especially that I am willing to be unsafe. I stated earlier I will correct the violations. I just want to know what options I have about the fines. I have principal issues with OSHA being a collection agency for the deficit. They take in way more money than they spend. Their budget should be even, if they take so much money it should go to educate small business such as myself.
Someone posted that they voluntarily called up and asked for a mock inspection, this sounds like a great idea. Wish I would have known about it. I know all responsiblity for everything is on me. Find quality workers, do what the IRS wants, comply with IRC, OSHA. Well crap, I'm a little frustated, I try to do quality work, safe work, and obey the law. I enjoy what I do, so quiting is not really what I want to do.
Joke comments - the inspector gave me a flow chart for exterior wall construction. "Must paint a warning line on the floor 6' from the edge of house. NO EXCEPTIONS. Foreman must warn anyone who crosses that line. NO Exceptions." Anyone willing to say that one is not a joke? Honestly, I can't think of any situation where this would be safer, just another fine waiting to happen.
Thanks for all your info and advice, and for allowing me to vent.
I have dealt with the warning line issue before on roof projects in commercial construction. In circumstances where some sort of rope fence type barricade was not possible to erect, it was deemed perfectly acceptable to have a person "controlling" movement of other workers and warning them when they got too close to the edge of the roof.Sounds foolish, but this is a manner in which you can be labeled in "compliance" rather than fined. You've gotten a lot of good advice on here from others concerning your situation, and if I ever gave you the impression that I thought your dilemma was whether to pay/not pay the fines, I apologize.The crews I've worked for in this area the past couple years have all been safety oriented, with the exception of the residential framers. OSHA shows up from time to time on the commercial stuff but they've never been to a residential job site that I've been on.If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
You said:
>> Someone posted that they voluntarily called up and asked for a mock inspection, this sounds like a great idea. << and >> they take so much money it should go to educate small business such as myself. <<
When I got cited, the following was explained to me: Our NC OSHA has 2 divisions: one that does enforcement and one that does education. The enforcement guys are the ones you don't want to see. On the other hand, I can call the education guys for a free inspection. These guys do not and can not give out citations. They just help contractors understand the rules. On the other hand you gotta wonder what the guys from the 2 divisions talk about in the lunch room ;-).
OSHA is administrated state by state, so your's might be different. Also, I know for a fact that OSHA rules are different from state to state, so you need info specific to your state. Matt
Federal osha used to have the free inspection program too- but the fine print said if they found something serious they cited you - so read the fine print.
I hear ya... That's why I probably would never call for a "free inspection".
Matt
and thats probably how you would do it if you ran a free inspection program
its an ethics thing- you see a serious problem - it could kill a worker- do you go away and forget it? can't
If OSHA used logic for their inspections there would be a lot less problems with complying with their rules. [Its 100+ degrees outside, you are working in a field doing slab work and they insist that you wear a hard hat], the only thing that can hit you is an airplane falling out of the sky. Duh. Thay think that every one working in construction is stupid!. Lots of luck.
Unfortunately...you are right in the deal with the hardhat, but it seems there are no real world methods to discern between when it's appropriate and when it's not. Some people aren't smart enough to know and use logic so the rule is written as such so there are no exceptions....I watched a small strip mall being built in Yukon, Oklahoma last summer and witnessed a dozen workers working underneath the same workers who were hanging iron, the guys underneath were without HH's and the guys above had them on.....the Super on that job should have been dismissed immediately....OSHA's been brought to enforcing this rule due to stupidity of outfits like this one.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
"Thay think that every one working in construction is stupid!"
It is very easy for people to make assumptions, make snap judgements, and draw inferences based on the ways in which we comport ourselves and communicate.
My mentor once told me that the average Joe wouldn't know perfection if it came up and shook hands with him, but will, nevertheless, be quick to point out imperfections.
Most of the construction hands (not all, by any means) I know are far more concerned with the results they achieve than the impression they create - especially the impression they make on folks outside the trades. The most conspicuous of these (the lowest 20% on the bell curve) are probably responsible for creating the false impression that "everyone working in constrution is stupid."
Thanks to forums like this one, we can all share our strategies to overcome this kind of bias and find ways to show customers and peers that we're among the top 20% on the bell curve.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie