I have a buddy who was visited by OSHA yesterday in a subdivision and he got a $5000.00 fine. No hardhats, improper ladder use, no steel toes and something about knotting his cords on his skilsaws. Is OSHA handing out citations in your areas? I’m in Idaho, still. Oh, yeah, I think he had guys on the wall plates, too. Man, they are making it rough to make a living.
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Sorry, I have very little sympathy for you.
You say it makes it hard to make a living. What about your labor? Crushed toes, electrocution, creased skull, or a broken back from falling off a top plate. These might make it hard for them to make a living. You think?
I'll bet if a worker insisted on working safely he would be seen as slow and unprofitable. Got to keep those profits high. Even if it gets the help seriously hurt. What the hey. They are expendable. Head down the block and pick up a couple undocumented to replace them in about ten minutes time. And they know their place and that they don't have rights. Except the right to work hard for peanuts and hit the highway if they get hurt.
Likely you don't offer health insurance. Also, if your like most builders and GC, your a member of the local builders association. the same group that fights against having to pay their fair share for workman's compensation.
In other words if a laborer gets hurt he gets minimal medical help and once the WC settles he is on his own. He might not be able to work his old job but what the hell. You got your project built. You might feel generous and give him some loose change while your waiting for the light to turn.
Don't take this personally. I don't know the particulars. I'm just tired of hearing builders bitch.
OSHA rules are, for the most part, pretty common sense. Get the labor used to complying and they really don't cost much in time or materials. Laborers are tools. Protect them, keep them sharp and you will get more out of them. Workers who know they are expendable will always work with one eye looking for a better, safer job.
Bravo!
Amen dood!Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
Let's hear a big AMEN!
I spent most of my life as an engineering manager, responsible for signal processing centers, tower maintenance, etc. We had to stay up to date on all regulations, including OSHA, FCC, etc. It was just normal business for us to ensure that all field employees had proper protective gear at all times. They were discplined by their supervisor if they failed to comply with the rules.
Then, a couple of years ago, I took an abrupt turn and went to work in a high-end custom cabinet shop. As a life-long woodworker, this was an opportunity to hone my skills and learn much more than I could from a book in my home shop. OSHA would have had a field day writing citations in this shop! Of course, no blade guards on any of the table saws. Eye protection was available, but not required by management -- oh, they made the token effort but did nothing to enforce the rule.
I could go on forever but you get the picture. When I quietly asked about OSHA regulations, the response was along the lines of, "if someone doesn't want to work here, there's the door". In an effort to learn more about the business, I had private conversations with some of the bench guys, who told me this was a 'normal' shop -- pretty much the same everywhere. Hmmm...
Take care out there.Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Good response.
What's the deal on the saw cords?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I don't want your sympathy. I'm not a GC, jjust a framer trying to make a living. If one of my guys falls off a ladder, he gets workers comp. If I fall off the ladder, I don't. I pay the premium. Slack off a little, OK?
Didn't mean to harsh your buzz. I suspect you posted here to get, possible not entirely unleavened by calls to work safer, some support. Sorry. This hit me at a bad point. A couple of friends have been injured. Thankfully nothing live threatening.
One stepped on a nail and has an infection deep in his foot. They think it will clear with an massive dose of antibiotics followed by oral doses but if it gets into the bone he's in trouble. Problem being his employment status was questionable.
He has no paperwork to even say he worked for the guy. Everything was cash. His boss slipped him some cash to cover the initial hospital visit but is balking about follow up care and paying for him being laid up for at least ten days.
Irony was that my friend was complaining that the job was a mess but the boss didn't want to pay anyone for the time it would take to organize the site to make it safer. The boss was supposed to have a helper come in the evenings but the kid hadn't showed up and didn't seem to want to do much. What do you expect if you pay the guy, a drunk by some estimations, ten bucks an evening and don't check on him.
My other friend broke his leg. He will be out of work for something like 12 weeks. WC won't start any payments for another month and payments are based on the pay chits. This keeps the bosses WC payments low. Same percentage of a smaller amount. Didn't understand all this but he is not getting much. The percentage he sees are a fraction of his real pay and won't cover his mortgage, truck payments, young kid, etc. They took up a collection on the site but that didn't last long.
His boss has chipped in but he only wants to pay for folks that work. His margin is small as he competes with shops running illegals. I guess the guy with the broken leg should move to Mexico where the standard of living would allow him to get by.
I didn't mean to get personal but there are folks hurting. People who work hard who have precious little to show for it. And what little they have can be lost in a second during an accident. The social safety net has holes and people are, through no fault of their own, falling through.
I used to work in a hospital, before becoming an electrician, and $100,000 is just the entrance fee for a lot of accidents coming into the ER. They can patch together a lot of problems but many linger for a lifetime and lowering the quality of life for that remaining time.
Please try to remember that when you chose methods of work and protection for your people. Saving a dollar or two doesn't make a lot of sense if it costs someone their health. Safety has to be pushed and pushed hard. It has to become a habit. Once it becomes a habit it doesn't cost very much.
Thanks, bud. I was bugged by your reply, but no biggie. Those guys work around here like Piffin said, just get out of the car and start taking money. I really try to keep a job as safe as possible, but I know there are employers who could care less. My employees are also my friends and relatives, so its a personal thing between me and them, also. I try to understand that OSHA is supposedly making things safer and better for all of us, but come on now. FRAMERS WALK ON THE WALLS. Always have and always should. I started framing in the early 70's. I just understood that framing has its dangers. If you don't concentrate and use common sense, you are liable to be hurt. Oh, well, my bitching isn't going to change anything. I'll try to get along with those fine OSHA fellows because I have no choice. It just is hard for us old farts to accept change sometimes. I appreciate your replying to me anyway.
We are in the same boat exactly. I enjoyed reading your post and responses. There are people who have no idea at all what the typical small time carpenter type subcontractor goes through getting any work done. Now we have to look out for the peeping tom types who sit in their cars a quarter mile away and video tape us. They can find an infraction if they look hard enough and that is what they are trying to do around here. The feeling in this area is that OSHA is coming around the residential jobsites because the big commercial jobs have slowed down. So the point of view that they are trying to help us work safer is so much crap. They are after the money. Who knows? Interesting thread, even if I did start it myself.
FRAMERS WALK ON THE WALLS. Always have and always should. I started framing in the early 70's. I just understood that framing has its dangers.
I started framing in 72......understood the danger involved and realized early on that I was responsible for my own safety. If I didn't like conditions, I quit.
As a GC I kept my jobsite clean and watched out for my guys.
I have pretty much done it all.......frozen, cooked, got soaked, slid, fell, broke bones, ribs etc.................bitched constantly, but loved the work. Framing is a tough business. Next to fishing in AK it's the most dangerous work I've done.
I'm still framing and walking top plates. I wear tennis shoes, loose fitting clothes and a ball cap. If I were to wear a hard hat, heavy steel toed shoes, safety glasses and all the other crap OSHA requires, I'd fall off and hurt myself. I can see the difference in this thread between the knows and the no-nots.
Lifes tough.....framing is tough work.......safety is important. I swear some of you guys sound like you would still like to have your mommy help you cross the highway.
In todays world we try to shuffle every vestige of responsibility that we should have for ourselves onto someone else and do all we can to have them create a bubble for us. this is what I call the pussification of the american male.
I'm not a tough guy, but I reject OSHA and every other butt head who comes on my jobsite and tells me how to run things.............
"I'm still framing and walking top plates. I wear tennis shoes, loose fitting clothes and a ball cap"Well hurrah for you and the first time the OSHA rep sees you then your a$$ is grass.If you can't adapt then you'll be forced out, simple as that --- because you can bluster all you want but they've got the power.
IanDG
Exactly, well said.
"the pussification of the American male"
Priceless.
>>I swear some of you guys sound like you would still like to have your mommy help you cross the highway.
That's funny! Well said jj.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
>>but I reject OSHA and every other butt head who comes on my jobsite and tells me how to run things<<
You can reject them all you want... until they show up and fine the crap out of you for violations. Or heaven forbid, something worse.
I sympathize. I used to have the exact same mind-set when I was first involved in managing people.... many more years ago than I like to admit.
However... my mind was changed dramatically when I started doing accident investigations and the first time I was face to face with the family of someone who died because of not wearing a hard-hat. There are no-excuses in a situation such as that.
It is real easy to think "it won't happen to me". It's real easy to pick out one portion of the code that doesn't make sense... and declare the "whole thing is f__ed". It's real easy to "reclaim your manhood from the pussification of American males".
Now... what do you tell a widow with two kids about her husband's death from a blow to the head... a relatively light blow on the head at that? Do you tell her that he was "being manly"? Do you tell her that "the code made no sense"? Do you tell her it was a "freak accident"... when many are killed every year do to not wearing a hard-hat?
I have been there... and the only thing you can tell her is the facts. All of the blustering in the world does not change the fact that her husband is dead... senselessly.
Blustering?.........being manly?
. I don't walk around thumping my chest proclaiming anything.......I wouldn't fit in with the Tony Soprano crew........ Ok......I'll give you this.......I'm a dinousar.
Think I don't understand the dangers in this business? I do.
What I am talking about is personal responsibility and governmental infringement.
Until you come on my turf with a notebook and an attitude I will respect you and leave you alone........even if you do and find a bona-fide hazard..I will respect you and thank you for showing it to me. Homeowner, helper, Gov. hack, don't matter to me........................but give me your yuppy power-play bull #### and fine me for having a frayed cord I may go ballistic on you.
I KNOW I don't fit in anymore...........and I'm glad I don't.
If you need to be hand fed and protected by Big Brother.......and wine, wine, wine about everything under the sun while doing so......you are a charter member of the Pussification of the American Male Association of America.
Re:"I'm still framing and walking top plates. I wear tennis shoes, loose fitting clothes and a ball cap. If I were to wear a hard hat, heavy steel toed shoes, safety glasses and all the other crap OSHA requires, I'd fall off and hurt myself. I can see the difference in this thread between the knows and the no-nots."
That is total BS.
I used to build scaffolding, still do occasionally but a whole lot less, and less elevated, than I used to and generally under friendlier conditions, for four years I worked on a project building up to seven stories. Not a high rise I realize but a hell of a lot higher and more dangerous, steel scaffold is inch-and-a-half versus three-and-a-half for most top plates, than your top plates.
Putting up and down there are no walk boards and the carpenters wouldn't go out on it until I had braced it and installed the walk boards, guard rails and toe boards.
The crew, and most on the site, wore steel toes, hard hat, long pants and shirts over the shoulders so don't give me any BS about the gear making you fall, unless your a klutz, and my being a "no-not" (Assumed to mean know-nots). I think your just lazy, unwilling to expend the effort to adapt, and set in your ways.
I think your just lazy, unwilling to expend the effort to adapt, and set in your ways.
Is this where the pissing contest starts?..............I am lazy, won't adapt, and am definitely set in my ways.......I'm also building my last house right now mostly by myself, so I do work a little bit.
DANGER?..............I know dangerous.......(but don't feel the need to impress.) stacking scaffolding ain't dangerous, I've done it.
I believe we're discussing the invasion of the OSHA hacks onto our job sites.
That is total BS.
This where you become a no-naught...........let me teach you the art of walking walls. (First of all you must remember this is not a commercial job, no union reps here to cry to, the breaks are few and we are under the "rush" gun cause time is money.
. You must be in good shape. (Meaning when you're standing at attention you should be able to glance down and see your toes.)
The first word is balance. A good wall walker is also a well balanced individual.........he's a cat. He feels his way, it's second nature, he is one with the wall and as he moves freely.......is a sight to behold.
Anything that gets between him and a top plate gives gravity an edge.
Put him in a "safety" suit and he loses his most precious comodity.....balance and speed.
Can't see the difference? Can't see yor toes? Take your steel toes, hard hat somewhere else cause I have to protect you from my guys who will probably laugh you off the job anyway.......and hurt your feelings.
Hey, sorry to break in here.
Q: when OSHA visits the jobsite and say a framing contractor gets sited and fined, does the GC get fined too?
Thanks.Matt
You betcha!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe it's a regional thing Piff....but I beg to differ.
Out of probably a dozen or so (in roughly the last 5 yrs) residential OSHA visits that I know of first or second hand, there's only one time where the GC was sited and it was for inadequate lighting... an itty bitty fine compared to what the framers and roofers recieived.
Like I said, maybe it's got more to do with the reps than it does with the organization as a whole.
Sounds like I need to check locally - thanks Pif and Diesel.Matt
Out here in Idaho, the contractor gets fined if the subs get fined for non-compliance.
I was a little bored tonight so I read this entire thread and I'm still a little bored. Bored with the old rhetoric safety is for the other guy. A hard hat messes my hair. Safety boots affects my balance. I look better in a muscle shirt. Safety glasses don't look good on me. I CAN'T AFFORD TO WORK SAFE!
All boring statements of BS.
They're also reasons why you will never work on any professional site.
It's not a matter of residential construction vs commercial construction practices. It's a matter of respect. Respect for your jobsite, respect for your family, respect for your fellow workers, respect for yourself.
Your chosen career expects that you wear personal safety gear, your family expects that you will do everything in your power to come home everynight with all of your body parts, your fellow workers expect that you will not be the cause of their rates going any higher that they already are and finally you call yourself a professional, damn it, be one.
Gabe
So true! I have few pros on my job site. Spend 40% of my time being a babysitter. I can tell in about 2 mins or less who has respect for the job, or just another low life bottom feeder.
You're lucky, I waste 90% of my time babysitting. I think Carole would have the needed experience to manage a construction site. She knows kids.
Gabe
Very well put.
You sum up in a few lines what I failed to express in entire pages.
Yeah, I was a little relaxed tonight, having done everything I had to do before 2 o'clock int he morning for a change. So I just read the whole thread too.
But I'm not bored now...nor relaxed.
I have no problem with coming home with the same number and condition of body parts I left with in the morning. You could say it's one of my prime goals. And I am probably one of the most safety-conscious people on this board: I do work as a professional rescue and safety patroller half the year.
I, like Diesel and jj, care immensely about my own safety, and that of the people that work with me. And, like them, I do not and could not and WILL NOT ever run a perfectly CSST-compliant site. (CSST=OSHA in Québec; Gabe probably knows that, others may not).
The problem I have is not with 'working safe', or with spending the money necessary to do so. The problem I have is with people treating the CSST (or OSHA) rule book like it was EFFING HOLY WRIT, GODDAMMIT!
Because It's Not.
Rules formulated by any government or quasi-government bureaucracy are doomed to degenerate into an unfathomable and unfollowable quagmire of good ideas turned to idiocies...because those rules are made by button-down minds who work in a vaccuum at extreme arm's length from reality. This is the nature of bureaucracies everywhere, everywhen, on every planet in every universe. Because people who like to make rules for others to follow have an inherent personality defect that makes them unfit for other, productive work. FACT. Not opinion.
Even if the rules originally made sense, no rule can possibly take into account all situations under which it could be applied. The rule says tie off if you're over a certain height? Did the rule take into account that there's forty bales of 8" fibreglass insulation sitting right below that spot? The rule says you have to shore a trench deeper than waist deep? Did the rule take into account the specific angle of repose of the excavated material in question, or it's humidity, or compaction factor?
No point in giving thirty or forty more dopy examples of stupid rules or applications. Anybody on this board with the sense wear a hat in the rain could do that.
The point is that we as a society have led ourselves down the path of believing that 'the guvmint' is some kind of omnipotent, omniscient entity. And It Just Ain't So....
I have a real problem with Ian's attitude: 'If you don't like it, that's just too bad, we're gonna put your unsafe a$$ outta business.' But Ian, don't take that personally. You're not alone thinking somebody appointed you God. And I have a real problem with all the rest of them, too....
Nobody appointed the CSST or OSHA God. It just sorta happened because we, the peepul, were too damned busy trying to scratch for a living to notice until it was too late that our govermnent had gotten outta control again!
So it's our own collective fault, as usual. And the lone voices screaming in the darkness, like Diesel, jj, and me--the so-called Dinosaurs--have got to keep screaming, hoping like hell a few people will listen, and think, and start screaming with us.
Because otherwise, the human race is doomed.
Remember, sheep will always be kept around because they grow nice warm sweaters on their backs. We don't....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You can bitch and whine how unfair it is, and how you know so much about safety that you don't need any f****g regulations but the fact is OSHA can make you comply or drive you out of business. As far as I'm concerned that's what should happen because your unprofessional attitude to safety has no place in the construction trade of today.
So, you don't want to tie the ladder because there are bales of insulation below? -- and the bales are moved but no-one bothers to tie off the ladder and ....
By the way, a trench whose sides are battered to the angle of repose is allowed and wait until you've seen guys trying, with their bare hands, to dig their mate out of a collapsed trench as he dies in front of them before you make with the utter BS about humidity and compaction factor.
It's ironic that jj whines about contractors undercutting each other and he's undercutting every other contractor that does allow in his price for working safely.
Anyone who ignores safety on site is a danger to themselves and everyone around them and the sooner they leave the trade the better.
IanDG
Since you obviously have trouble with reading comprehension, let me help you out.
I am not 'bitching and whining about how unfair it is'--I am pointing out that brainless automotons who blindly follow rules just because they're laid down by some Agency spelled in Capital Acronyms are a societal plague who need a serious attitude adjustment and some basic re-education in the social responsibilities which underlie any democratic system of governance. Prime among those responsibilities is the duty of every citizen to speak out against stupidity, corruption, or incompetance whenever it is found in the halls of government.
People who think, on the other hand, are capable of analyzing the particular dynamic situation with which they are faced, and of taking specific appropriate action to ensure that nothing untoward happens.
I would rather have a boss who used his head and his heart to keep me safe--like, say, 4LORN--than one who relied blindly on a rulebook written by an endless series of bureaucratic committees, the members of which are more concerned with political correctness and covering their individual a$$es than with my ultimate health and well-being.
Since I am a professional, that is the way I run my sites. I do not particularly care what a rulebook says--I care that my guys and I go home in one piece at the end of each and every workday. And I do whatever is necessary to accomplish that, even if that means we do more than the rulebook requires (which is often the case), or if it takes us twice as long to get something done.
Oh, and BTW, Monsieur le petit dieu: you are dead flat wrong in believing that OSHA can make me comply or drive me out of business, much as Your Holiness might like to see that happen. First of all, I no longer live or work where OSHA has any jurisdiction whatsoever. Second, the Commission de Santé et Sécurité de Travail, which is a private, employer-funded, government-authorized commission/insurance fund, has no jurisdiction over my sites because the type of contract we enter into with HO's is exempt.
And BTW2, the very essence of the definition of 'angle of repose' is that it is the angle above which untamped material starts to slide spontaneously.
Get a life...and stop trying to take charge of everyone else's.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
BTW 3, my Safer-Than-Thou friend: This photo came off your own website--recognize it?
View Image
I don't see any harnesses, hardhats, or gloves on those workers of yours. I guess that's because in Saudi Arabia, the local version of OSHA doesn't require them.
So, obviously, since nobody 'official' told you to protect your workers, you didn't bother.
Hypocrite.
You make me sick.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Harnesses -- there's a scaffold at eaves level as per UK safety rules that don't recognise harnesses for roofing work anyway.
Hard-hats -- no, the company had none in 1979 and there was a shortage of HD or Lowes in Riyadh. Everything was shipped in so it wasn't until the hospital site that we had hard-hats and working boots available.
Gloves -- available, and being worn by the mason grinding marble.
Safety glasses -- ditto.No, there wasn't a safety inspectorate in Saudi Arabia, or a building inspectorate -- you'd have been in your element!
IanDG
you'd have been in your element!
Dear Ian.....you are changing the meaning of our words to suit your agenda........come on man, you sound like my ex-wife.
I personally don't bid on anything, nor do I cut the other guys to get a job.....never did. I am now a gentleman of leasure, building my own house out of my own pocket, no inspections at all..............does that make me an unsafe, bumble fuke?
No, it just makes me a whole lot happier and stress free from the real bumble fukes.
So........define professional.........as I'm just a nail pounding jerk-off who has been teaching professionals half his life span how to build a house and not have it collapse on them............
You a professional?
I also find it a bit odd that the very guys who scream the loudest when it comes to govt infringment on their 'rights' when it comes to national security............roll over and welcome Big Brother onto his job.......gladly pay his threaded cord fine and kiss his young yuppy #### for being there.
Harnesses -- there's a scaffold at eaves level as per UK safety rules that don't recognise harnesses for roofing work anyway.
So, according to you, safe work practices are not safe work practices unless recognized as such by whatever authority you feel like citing. It's okay not to have the guys in harnesses in Saudi because an authority with no jurisdiction over the site (UK) didn't require them...but you have the gall to post on this board that people like Diesel and jj should be shut down and run out of business for not harnessing their guys on sites in the States. Man, your logic is slipperier than an oiled steel plate and more twisted than an epileptic electric eel.
Hard-hats -- no, the company had none in 1979 and there was a shortage of HD or Lowes in Riyadh. Everything was shipped in so it wasn't until the hospital site that we had hard-hats and working boots available.
In 1979 hard hats were commonly worn by commercial construction workers in virtually all members of the Commonwealth, as were steel-toed boots. You knew better, but you let it slide so you wouldn't get yer a$$ fired off the project for insisting. So your own butt comes before that of your guys, right? By what you've been saying in this thread, you should have just shut that site down until your bosses had a container of safety gear for your imported labour shipped in. That's what you're demanding the rest of us do.
Gloves -- available, and being worn by the mason grinding marble.Safety glasses -- ditto.
And what about the labourers handling the rebar and other materials up there? Don't their lowly hands and eyes merit protection? If the stuff was available and you as project manager didn't require your crew to wear it, by your own philosophy you ought to have been shut down and run out of business.
You just don't get it, do you? You won't admit you're just another sheep, goin' with da flow of wherever you are, keepin' yer own butt covered at the expense of everybody else around you.
That in itself is so common it's not even worth remarking on. There's even a highly successful comic strip written about people like that; it's called Dilbert. (You wouldn't happen to have pointy hair, by any chance?)
What really bugs us about you is your holier-than-thou attitude, which you're trumpeting all over this board like some kind of archangel of doom. But in fact, your personal performance in safety matters would probably have gotten you slapped with enough fines to pay for a medium sized Sheik's palace, had you been held to the standards to which you insist we be held.
I repeat. You're a hypocrite. You talk the talk, but you won't walk the walk.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Harnesses or scaffold -- there should be one or the other. You seem to think your harnesses are so superior yet you defend not wearing them? Where's the logic there?
The whole of your rant has been about perceived safety issues that you admit you ignore -- plus a whole heap of gratuitous insults -- can you spell 'hypocrisy'?
And in 7 years, with high-rise construction and up to 500 men from 3rd world countries with no culture of safety not one person lost time through injury on site. None of my guys shot themselves with a nail-gun or fell off a roof so when you sneer at my "professional attitude" -- yeah, damn right and proud of it. You want to pound your chest and brag that OSHA shouldn't apply to you because you know better -- go for it. I wouldn't bet on winning though.
IanDG
Edited 9/23/2004 8:22 am ET by IanDG
Kinda have to laugh at the "hardhat and safety boots not being safe for wall walking".
A awful mess of steel workers are laughing as well. I walked my share of walls and did it with safety boots. Maybe a amateur with two left feet might have trouble but he'd have trouble barefoot as well.
What a poor excuse for not wearing personal safety gear. Most accidents occur in the residential sector and it affects all of our compensation rates. Why should I have to pay an inflated rate to make up for those who choose the easy way out?
I think the big divide here is attitude. Either safety is job one or it isn't. Being stubborn won't get you through the main gate.
For 2 days now, I've prevented the painting contractor from entering the site because he couldn't prove that he had received basic fall arrest training and he's the owner. He's been behind schedule for the past month and this isn't helping him at all, but he wants to do it his way so it's the highway.
I can and probably will replace the painting contractor with a telephone call, what I can't do is put him together again after a fall, with a telephone call.
Gabe
laugh at the "hardhat and safety boots not being safe for wall walking".
Kinda wondering what's so funny. I've been framing houses for over thirty years in OH/Oregon/Washington and alaska.............can't ever remember seeing a hard hat on a RESIDENTIAL site.........and that's what this thread is about.
Commercial work is, as I know, an entirely different ball game. .....yes, my iron worker buddies ALL wear hard hats etc. as would I cause the danger equasion changes drastically when you go over two floors and work with steel and many different crews all at the same time.
OK.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I give.
Thirty years & no hard hats! You would never be allowed on my site!
2000+ Deaths last year and another 200,000 suffered disabling injuries, and none were on my site. You want to work on my site, you follow my rules!
OSHA pays me a visit at least 2 time a year so far in the past 5 years. Yes I have been fined along with the sub contractor that could not follow simple safety rules.
Every week I remind all crews of an important safety topic and help them understand & avoid hazards. This also helps to improve safety awareness all week long.
Been on sites where first it's no hard hats, then no fall protection, then we might as well pin back the guards on the saws, then no ground plugs, no eye procetion, no safety rails, the list goes on & on .
On my site if you follow the rules, you get rewarded by being able to return the next day!
2000+ Deaths last year and another 200,000 suffered disabling injuries
they used to tell us in the infantry that 15% of the men on average would become a casuality.................using those numbers you stated it is far safer in a foxhole having someone lobbing gernades at you than it is framing a house.
I'm not arguing anymore........but I wonder just how many guys building Ken and Barbie residential houses wear hard hats and steel toed shoes??
I confess to seldom building anything in the city as I always prefered working in the country. ........and of course as to wall walking can only give a personal account of what I and every other framer I've ever known have done.
As to working for you on your jobsite..........I'm 62 years old.......I can still hang a 4x8x24' beam by myself, but it takes a really long time.....can't take orders worth a damn........won't wear a hardhat.........will ALWAYS do it my way...... get in my face and I'm down the road........I have arthritis in my joints......and need to take a 1/2 hour nap at 3pm every day.........can your bennies just give me more money.
Christ, if I think about it I wouldn't even hire myself...........and yet I'm kinda proud of never becoming a 'reservation Indian'..........................
ROAR! Halfway to pounding on the desk!
Milkbones to you for a good laugh:o)
Arguing with you is pointless, because you don't--or won't--understand anything said to you. I've told you twice I am not against safety, I am against compulsory safety regulations propagated by REMFs.
You on the other hand claim that everybody should have to follow OSHA's regulations or be run out of business--but you yourself didn't follow them, and now have veered off into mealy-mouthed justifications like 'harnesses or scaffolding--there should be one or the other.'
Well, Gee Willy Whiskers! You're right! There should be one or the other...in most cases, anyway. But OSHA DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE CHOICE, MISTER. That's what this is all about. According to OSHA, you will harness your men, scaffolding or not. In fact, you'll harness them to the scaffolding while they're on it....
Last point: You brag you went 7 years with a large labour force made up of 'third-world' types, and nobody ever lost time to an injury (which is not the same thing as saying nobody ever got hurt, and don't think we didn't notice, BTW). And this sterling performance of yours occurred in a jurisdiction where there was NO SAFETY INSPECTORATE.
Looks to me like you just proved my point, which is that one can run a safe site without adhering to a fat, official, compulsory rulebook.
So get off your high horse and stop threatening to shut down everybody who does it different than you do. You sound like a pompous a$$.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I've told you twice I am not against safety,
Not against safety --- when you can argue that it's OK not to tie off a ladder and the shoring of a trench depends on the humidity and compaction!!
mealy-mouthed justifications like 'harnesses or scaffolding--there should be one or the other.'That's right, two different solutions to the same prevention of falling -- OSHA that wants safety harnesses or UK Regs that call for edge protection and scaffolding -- what don't you understand about that?
which is not the same thing as saying nobody ever got hurt, and don't think we didn't noticeLet me clarify then for the hard of thinking -- "apart from minor cuts and bruises, none of which required medical treatment greater than a band-aid" -- there, that better?
stop threatening to shut down everybodyCan't you read either? -- where did I threaten to shut down anybody, let alone everybody?I realise it's very difficult for you to grasp but OSHA sets the rules and all your ranting and raving at me for pointing out that basic fact won't make the slightest bit of difference to you having to follow them.
IanDG
I'm not going to bother re-answering you again. Anybody who's read this whole thread can smell where the sanctimonious bs is coming from.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Why don't you read the excellent post from eddiec9? You might learn something.
IanDG
Ian,
I think, no, I know Dino read that post and he did learn something.
Now why don't you actually READ Dino's posts and learn something too?
Or are you just one of those guys who can't agree to disagree, and has to have the last word?
Give it a rest.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I read it. He didn't say much I didn't already know in a general sense, and I have slugged my own way through several (different) sets of CFR's so I tip my hat to him for that.
In fact, he sums up the problem very succinctly, and professionally, and said what you were trying to say...but he said it in a polite and helpful manner instead of trying to shove it down people's throats at gunpoint.
The difference between your approach and his is like the difference between showing up on some guy's front porch with a bag of horsesh!t and ordering him to take it, like it or not, or get out of town...or showing up with a trailer full of the same stuff and offering to help the homeowner spread it as fertilizer to improve his lawn.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Dino,
>>The difference between your approach and his is like the difference between showing up on some guy's front porch with a bag of horsesh!t and ordering him to take it, like it or not, or get out of town...or showing up with a trailer full of the same stuff and offering to help the homeowner spread it as fertilizer to improve his lawn.
yer crackin' my #### up!!!
Where do you get this stuff??? You would be a good writer, or maybe a teacher!
Like I said before........I love analogies.......
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Where do you get this stuff??? You would be a good writer, or maybe a teacher!
I've been both, at various times in my nefarious time line. And I swear: I made it all up all by myself....
I thought I had made it clear (in fact, I said so, in so many words) that what I had a problem with was Ian's attitude--not what he had actually said in between threats.
My all-time favourite printed tee-shirt was one that stated the following:
PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY
KNOW IT ALL REALLY ANNOY
THOSE OF US WHO DO.
It's a Haiku, too. Too bad the store didn't have one in my size....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Got busted by OSHA a few weeks ago... :-( Residential building site. Lack of hard hats, safty glasses, fall protection...
Can someone please translate the following message to Centeral American type spanish?
Thanks much
THIS IS AN OSHA COMPLIANT WORKSITE
Ø Hard hats are required whenever there is a danger from falling objects.<!----><!---->
Ø Fall protection is required while working at heights at or above 6’ (10’ for work being performed from scaffolding).<!---->
Ø Ladders must extend 3’ above the roof surface when the ladder is used to access the roof. Ladders must be OSHA compliant.<!---->
Ø All tools and equipment must be OSHA compliant. Guards and safetys must be in place.<!---->
Ø Safety glasses must be worn when operating power or pneumatic tools.<!---->
Ø Respirators are required when workers are exposed to hazardous dust, paint being sprayed, etc.<!---->
Ø Each subcontractor is responsible for compliance with all OSHA regulations, for safety training his/her employees & subcontractors and is responsible for any fines that OSHA may levy.<!---->
Edited 2/20/2005 8:29 am ET by DIRISHINME
Can't help you with the translation, bro, and hope you see getting visited as a step towards a safer jobsite.I just read this entire thread, so can't leave without chiming in. I think I might have a little different perspective than some of you, just because of my varied work experience. I work with contractors and carpenters here in Santa Cruz who have never worked anywhere except building houses in Santa Cruz. Blows my mind.I think the typical experience in the South, where I've spent most of my adult life, is that construction guys tend to travel more, and work industiral sites as well as residential. At least that's the way it was for me and a lot of my friends. I worked for 3 years right out of high school framing houses. Then I joined the carpenter's union and worked for the next 6 years finishing up my apprenticeship and working as a millwright most of the time, in power plants, paper mills, all kinds of factories and refineries, and as a carpenter some of the time, too.I left the union in 1981, and worked for BE&K, Daniel, Brown & Root, and other big companies on industrial jobsites all over the country, both as a millwright and carpenter, for the next 10 years. I also mixed in 3 years of nothing but residential carpentry in Austin, TX, and I've done nothing but residential carpentry since 1991. So I've spent hundreds of hours in safety meetings and safety training. I worked about 15 jobs with BE&K, and they were at the forefront of job safety in the 80s. I'm sure they still are. You had your safety glasses on from the time you walked in the gate until you went back out the gate.I've been on lots of jobs where men have been killed, and I've seen people hurt really bad. I've also gone for years without seeing anyone seriously hurt, and I pray it continues that way. So with that background, here's my perspective:When I was working on industrial jobsites, I knew the rules. Hard hat and safety glasses on all the time. Face shield if you're grinding or chipping. Safety belt (now harness) on if you were working over 6 feet off the ground. Proper scaffold if you needed one. Lots and lots of other things that you just know from working in that environment. When planning a job, you figured out what all tools you were going to need, and that automatically included the proper safety gear. You had a safety meeting every Monday morning where you talked about issues that were timeworthy on that project, and safety was as much on your mind as the other aspects of getting a job done.Without me even saying it, I think all of you know that this does not describe what goes on on the typical residential site. Most of the guys I work with now have never been to a safety meeting, and give very little thought to safety, unless they're going to do something really dangerous. Then they'll say, "Let's think about safety, guys."All those years working on hard hat jobs taught me how to work safely and gave me a safety awareness that I still have, and I'm amazed nearly every day at things that people do that are so "not done" on big jobs, but are common practice on small, residential projects. I point things out to people, and sometimes it's well received, and sometimes not. I'm in the planning stages of starting my own business again, specializing in historic preservation and restoration work, as I've mentioned in other threads. I'm looking at all the things I can do that will set me apart from the run-of-the-mill contractors that Santa Cruz is full of, and safety awareness and compliance is going to be one of them. Will it cost a little more? Yep. That's another reason I'm better than the rest, and will charge a little more. Jobsite safety is one of my pet peeves, for all the reasons many have already mentioned. Since that is something I'm pretty passionate about, and which works clearly in the client's favor, I think Sonny Lycos could figure a way to make money off of it, while providing myself and my subs with a safer place to work. On the other hand, one of the reasons I enjoy working on residential projects rather than the big jobs is that I can wear shorts and tennis shoes to work, and take my shirt off when the sun is shining. So I can very much relate to what jj and dinosaur were saying. But even though I'm 50 years old, I'm no dinosaur. Show me a better way and I'll make it my own, and getting the proper education regarding jobsite safety, and implementing what you learn sounds like common sense to me. "We are all travellers in the wilderness of this world,
and the best we can find in our travels is an honest friend."
....Robert Louis Stevenson
Allen in Santa Cruz
Got to learn to carry a camera.
Last summer the local WalMart begins building an addition so it can enlarge to become a 24hr supercenter.
So out in the parking lot a little ways is the beginning of an entry facade.
What we have are two large, I'm guessing 20ft exposed, I-beams embedded straight into the ground probably 15-20ft apart with an I-beam spanning and joining between them forming a kind of H, nothing around any side of them for many yards.
Like old football goalposts.
A crane is moving the next I-beam to be connected to the tops of the verticals.
So these two guys are standing/walking around on that I-beam 12some foot off the ground like birds on a wire, arms overhead helping to guide the next beam into it's place. Got to thinking that was probably their daily work life.
Sure was glad I saw they had hard hats on to protect them if they fell.
be a bird
"Live Free, not Die"
but steelworkers are exempt from many ohsa rules. even though it still unsafe, they lobby congress to get exempt.
Yah, or if the beam fell and hit them on the heads.I was at the Wal-Mart a couple years ago and noticed that up fron where the customer service desk was flanking the entrance to the bathrooms, they had a rack of auto batteries that had either been returned for warrantee or turned in for disposal. Cracks and strong possibility of falling over and spilling acid on people. I talked to thwe gurl behind the counter there and got nothing more than astupid stare. Asked to see the manager. After explaining to him the dangers of battery acid and the burns irt can cause, I strongly suggested that he find an alternate location for the rack.He said, " I'll see what i can do about that"A week or two later, the same rack is in the same place, only more batteries on it.
So I grabbed it like as though I'm supposed to be there. I'm wearing a blue work shirt and Dickies navy blue pants, like any other automotbile workers uniform.
I rolled the rack out the door, and around the back end of the store, parked it near the dumpster. never have seen it up front again.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wallyworld owes you for hazard pay."Live Free, not Die"
if you see a 'major' safety infraction at a big-box, send a letter to the HQ...date, details, employee name if possible. Usually good for a $20 gift card, got a $100 card from Lowes once.
While I can't argue with the guys who say, it's my worksite, I oughta be able to do what I want, there's another whole story here.
It's about the money. (isn't it always?) You have an accident, My Comp rates go up.
Your uninsured sub (you did ask for that insurance certificate, right) falls and is disabled, he goes on Social Security Disability. Who's paying for that? All of us.
You don't have health insurance, get hurt, Who's paying the ER bill? All of us.
So, Yeah, you can be a wise guy, but as long as everybody else is paying for you to be a "dinosaur" or whatever, OSHA's gonna be there, since they represent the rest of us who are ultimately paying for your jobsite injury.
Sorry to support the 'man' but this time, he's right.
Steve
So if you're not supposed to walk walls [w/o fall straps], anyone here do anything different? Like ladders,etc. I mean, you gotta get on the walls to run joists...don't ya?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
According to our policy in NY, framers don't have to be tied off on the structure until the sheeting is completed (which seems strange). We install Saf-ty straps for the siders but the roofers aren't required to be tied off. I could be doing work as a framer sitting next to a sider who wasn't wearing fall protection and I'm safe but he isn't.!?
I had a meeting at the NC OSHA office to discuss 'the' incident and resulting fines with the regional supervisor, so now know a little more... NC's OSHA laws are a little different than the National OSHA requirements in that anyone who is on the roof has to wear harnesses that are tethered to attachment points...
Matt
Framer T
Work off of equipment, it's cheaper, faster, and much much safer.. I'll be honored to explain why if you'd like.
Frenchy
Guess what we were demoing yesterday? 2002 IR VR1056 w/822 hours. Here are some pics comparing it to our VR-90B
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/86924032.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/86841338.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/86924254.jpg
How long is that boom Tim? Looks huge. Outrigger stabilizer are awesome.... feel way safer with those long shots. Is that cab enclosed? 10,000 lb machine? Gimma da goods! :)
While I've got your attention, ever find out what type of chain your buddy said to use for the headcutter? I decided on a 24" bar... was only $20 more than the 18".... better to have and not need than need and not have, right? ;)
Boom is 55' in the air and 42' straight out, give or take. Outriggers do put my mind at ease. No one but Jasen and me will be driving this for awhile. I just don't trust anyone else.
Chain is a chisel tooth. I think the problem I had before was I was told a chisel tool was the same as a skip tooth. It isn't, although you can get a chisel skip tooth. I'm going to get one and try it next time.
by the way, the house in this pic http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/86841389.jpg We stacked on Friday and it is a 6 1/2" pitch with 9-12 dormers. I used the Big Foot headcutter on the 6 1/2" -12 and they were so tight its not funny. I cut the main roof while the stairs were being cut.
I should get the Headcutter back from the guy who built our platforms. He is a good friend and ex-framer. We are just taking the base off the Bigfoot headcutter and replacing it with a bigger one. I'll post pics when I get it.
Have fun with your saw :-) Jasen has got a smaller Stihl and we may put a small bar on it (stubby) if we do some beam work. I'm itching to do some beam work.
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but here are two pics of our modified Headcutter. The steel is heavy, but it'll be fine. We use wormdrives, so this'll be easy :-)
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/87331842.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/87331685.jpg
Let me tell you a few things about both. The VR90 was a great work horse and very compact while the 1056 has much greater length and capacity it comes at a price.. it's longer and doesn't turn as sharp. In addition the 1056 has the same engine and transmission as the lighter 642, thus it's power to weight is far worse. (about 10 more horses and 90 foot pounds more torque than your VR )
Here in Minnesota where we get real heavy clay in the spring it is really on the edge as to it's ability to get through.. they are working on a more powerful engine but that is still several years away. (by the way all of my competitors have the same engine and about the same wight if not more)...
There are several other forklifts out there with almost the same reach. (most are a couple of feet shorter both up and forward) Lull has 18 inches more forward reach however it's 2 feet shorter in height)
Nobody can carry as much forward weight as we do.. some forklifts like Gehl and Lull you'd swear their booms were made of rubber compared to Ingersol Rand. Great big old curves in the boom with maximum capacity loads all the way forward.. Ingersol Rand may have as much as 1500 pounds more capacity at forward reach than any competitor.
Stability wise the 1056 is really the most stable of all the 50' plus length forklifts. I can testify that with maximum load the 1056 I used with a 12 foot jib on it (total of 68 feet) could carry my timber truss in place and still sway to the side in order to get it the final few inches . The truss was made from four pieces of 6"x9" 18 feet long white oak. (still pretty green)
Nobody else's will do that..
E-mail me and let me know what sort of numbers will you? I want to compare our costs to theirs...
Frenchy,
I emailed you. I'm posting that here, because my email puts a lot of the mail from Breaktime in my junk folder.
Sorry, I never recieved it..
Yes,frenchy...I'm listening. What kind of equipment? This 'bunch' I'm working with are pretty safety minded,not to mention older. Used to hook a nail with a tape measure,walk the walls backward to do lay-out. Still do it on a 2x6 wall but thats about it.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
equipment such as rough terrain forklifts.. That equipment can pay for it's own cost while you are paying for it.. once it's paid for it'll cost you very little to use for the next 20 years. The economics are ` It's like hiring one and a half hard working grunts (or two average grunts) You frame a house 20%-25% faster with one and that increse in speed more than offsets their cost. The safety factor is a freebee. (plus they will always be there, never argue with the boss, never show up drunk and try to punch the boss or have day care issues.. and in my 14 years of selling them I've never heard of one filling a workmans comp claim, <G>)
You won't believe how much safer and faster it is to install windows off a workplatform rather than off ladders. plus hauling and setting in place the subflooring is a couple hour job on a large house where if you have the grunts do it it can easily take 8 hours or more.. Flooring trusses becomes a matter of reaching acroos the basement with a forklift full of trusses and dropping each one in place. One guy on one side of the basement and the other guy on the other. Plywood for the roof is a matter of siding it into place and nailing. the work platform offers plenty of fall protection and a safe place to be standing while the crane swings roof trusses into place.
Yes you can put roof trusses up with a forklift but I don't recommend it. It's faster and safer to use a crane and then use the forklift as their fall protection.
Other equipment that helps is a man lift (JLG, Grove,Genie, Marklift, & Terex are common brand names) Their chief advantage is their compact size as well as the ability to perform work with only one man instead of the two that is often required to use a forklift (one operator and somebody up on the work platform to do the work)..
We're starting to sell and rent scissor lifts for use in sheetrocking those larger house with big open rooms. They are much faster and far easier than to set up and tear down scaffolding. plus you can use the scissor lift to get the sheetrock up in place, rather than having to haul them up and down scaffolding.. You'll need a forklift to put one into most houses but if one is there for the siding/ soffits/ gutters etc. it's generally no problem. Electricians have long used scissor lifts to do wiring on those larger houses with the great big high ceilings. Push arounds too have their place for electricains who need to install ceiling lights in those 15 /20/30 foot high celings . Their floor loading is much less than a scissorlift and their relative lack of mobility may be offset by that consideration on some of these lightly built McMansions..
Frenchy,
Did my email go through? I got a mail returned last time.
Tiz,
About 6 or 7 years ago I was up on the top plates rolling joists. It was a three story house in the back (daylight basement) and I was on that side. The saftey inspector showed up and he was really nice, actually scared is a better word. I can't imagine what those guys face. He said roofers were the worst to deal with because in the past they've beat up inspectors. Anyway, we were really nice to him and he in turn reciprocated and turned the inspection into more of a "consulting" visit. Didn't write us up, but showed us all the things he could have and probably should have. That's what he was there for.
He recommended rolling joists from a ladder and to be honest, except for the rim, that isn't much slower and it is a lot safter. Layout can be done while the walls are still on the ground, although on first floor walls, we still walk them.
We've avoided most of the problem now with a forklift. It is unreal how much time they save. For instance, just with floor sheathing. On the second floor, we boom up the subfloor and start sheathing immediatley. Now packing plywood up to the second floor. We are done sheathing and have lines snapped before we would be 1/3 sheathed if we had to pack it.
For roof sheathing, we just boom up to the second floor and unload enough sheathing for the cut man and then boom the rest up to the roof. If we are using the platform, the cut man is on the roof. We can have the roof sheathed by the time most crews would get their sheathing up there.
For wall framing, you can get all the studs and plates up to the second floor in 5 minutes. We'll have most of the outside walls framed before most crews get 2 done. It used to take us 1 day for outside walls, sometimes longer. Now we are done by break, and can have the inside done by the end of the day. On wall framing for a two story house, we save 2 days, add another day saved for sheathing both floors and at least 1/2 day for sheathing the roof. Plus the time saved by not packing the rafters up to the roof. We save at least a day by gang cutting and getting the whole pile up to the roof.
It is a big investment to get a lift, but man does it save time. We haven't had to do siding for awhile, but the next time we do, with the platform, we'll cut time in half.
The first forklift we bought, we paid $7500 for. We still have it and it runs, but we've been able to upgrade so we have, but that first house we used it on, we saved about 2 weeks total. We did all the siding on that house. It's unreal.
He recommended rolling joists from a ladder
Here in Michigan, I've had my Worker's Comp safety inspector give us a program that allows us to "roll" trusses by standing in the trusses already set. This program, with all the other details spelled out, satisfies OSHA with regards to the setting of trusses and is a legal substitute for fall protection and working off ladders.
Of course, this technique only works if I have a written safety plan on site, have held a safety meeting specifically explaining this technique and can document that fact, including written notes regarding the time of the meeting, the safety director that gave the instructions etc, etc, etc.
So, it's legal, as long as I hire a secretary to come to the jobsite every day and teach us how to set the trusses...
It's no wonder guys like me are leaving the trades....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You leaving the trades, Blue? Wonder how many trim guys 'fix'their guards on the miter box.
Helped a friend once do a side job,had a couple others there too. One dude had an old Duofast gun 'rigged' so it shot whenever you pulled the trigger...did'nt have to depress nothing. Said "it's good for toe-nailing".Told him to stay away from me.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Framer, I am definitly leaving the trade(s). I'm in my last year subcontracting, and am in transition one step up the food chain. When I move, I'll be doing something entirely different in business. IF the building business gains any momentum, then I'll have some economic ties back here in Michigan. If not, oh well, bye bye.
It's a shame that the economic conditions surrounding the trades has slipped so badly. I wouldn't suggest becoming a rough carpenter to anyone nowadays. They'll be working safe, but they'll starve and freeze when they try to get home in their junkers with bald tires.
I'm divesting my real estate here in Michigan and will re-invest when I land whereever I go.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Oh yeah, I forgot to comment about trim guys fixin' their guards on their mitre boxes.
We definitly operate in a dual parallel world. They strip the guards off their mitre boxes, table saws and work with exposed blades on their routers, sabre saws etc. They inhale dust, without creating an OSHA approved vacumn system. They work on stair rails, after they have stripped away the safty rails that we install. They work on bridge rails without a saftey net.
Then, they chastise me for working unsafe.
I find it comical.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
OSHA's gonna be there, since they represent the rest of us who are ultimately paying for your jobsite injury.
OSHA's nothing more than a bunch of political bs.
If congress really wanted to stop jobsite injuries, they could reduce them significantly by implementing thousands of rules. Make me King and the only injuries would be from people falling asleep from boredom.
Ban, all power tools, all heavy equipment, all steep roofs, all two story buildings, all nail guns. Just use the Amish methods, but restrict the heights.
There are thousands of less drastic measures. They could add safety inspections to the list that building inspections do. They could inspect railings and nets before any work was done. They could require forklifts on every site, cranes on every site. They could ban all hazardous materials, like gas, oil. They could require heat and warmth and air conditioned enviorments. Just put tents over the areas to prevent ice, water, mud.
The entire process is corrupt and nothing more than a power grab.
It's okay that they decide which level of danger can occur, but the guys out in the field living it don't have any say.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue eyed devil.
Around here the best way to get a visit from OSHA is to have a workman's comp claim accident. Another words once someone is hurt they will come out and find out why..
Too late in my opinion. Why not have everyone as concerned about safety as they should be? A sixfoot fall doesn't sound like much but if you crush your ankle as my buddy did and then shortly thereafter have to have it amputated, lose your ability to work at your profession, lose your home and marriage. Wind up as a drunk and die that lost income comes from someplace.
Blue eyed devil You'll need to make up the shortage. Those bills weren't fully covered and that too was paid for by you (at least in part) Since this country depends on everyone 's ability to carry the load why not ensure that the load is split as many ways as possible?
I know that residential construction is one of the highest risk professions and just out of self interest you'd think you'd want others to care about safety enough to keep you from having to pay too much..
Big picture thinking here,
If everyone was required to wear hard hats the cost of hard hats would go down, the number of head trauma cases would go down and nobody would have a finical advantage over anybody else.
That would simply be the cost of doing business. I wear a hard hat on every jobsite I visit. My hard hat is many years old and I bet has cost me less than a nickle a month. Japan has the requirement that everybody wear hard hats, they all have chin straps to keep them from falling off. However I'm certain that in some third world country hard hats are an option. Now which would you rather be, a backwards third world country or modern up to date and safe?
Around here the best way to get a visit from OSHA is to have a workman's comp claim accident.
Frenchy, around here, the best way to get a visit from OSHA is to have a disgruntled (fired) employee call up and complain that he we were using illegal saws. The irony of the situation is that that particular employee was using his OWN saw, just like all the employees do.
I'm not against safety measures that make sense, but I'm also against a system that can find a safety violation on every job.
Quite frankly, I really don't care what OSHA says. I've went through their training and understand what they think is important. I have my own set of standards, some more stringent, others less stringent. I understand that the issue is nothing more than politics, as usual, and I'm held captive to more government interference in my life.
And please, let's not start the "we pay for it all" routine. Just put the waivers in front of me, and I'll sign them all. I'll also sign off of Fica and unemployment while I'm at it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue...
blue... blue...
what am i gonna do with you ?
in the mid- '90's OSHA was turning up at a lot of non-commercial projects.. handing out lot's of $5000 fines... most of the violations were fall protection ..every one in the stae got religion... and workplaces really changed for the better
we wanted to bid a big siding job in a prominent location.. but we had to factor in buying a lot of new staging to comply with OSHA..
we didn't get the job.. but it did wake me up to how much better the new staging was than our old pump jacks.. i started buying the new Alum-a-pole equipment.
our productivity went up...
when i started in residential.. in '73, we were a hard hat company.. no problem with me, i had just finished 4 years of heavy & marine const..... i had a hard hat glued to my head..
but nobody wears hard hats anymore .. why not... no enforcement.. OSHA has been gutted by the politicians...
and the crummy staging is comming back into circulation... why ? no enforcement.. OSHA has been gutted by the politicians..
you don't want OSHA... you don't want Building Codes.. but i welcome them both.. they both set a floor of standards we can all live with.. and the only thing to protect workers from bosses who will not keep a safe workplace is OSHA.. so..to me.. i pity the young dudes comming up.. they should have the benefit of a safe workplace with everyone playing by the same rules..
same rules.. means enforcement.. which means OSHA...
what it doesn't mean is ...."this is the way Blue does it"
or..." this is the way Mike does it"....
we have Motor Vehicle laws and cops to enforce them.. take away the cops and anarchy would prevail on our streets..
we have workplace safety laws.. but no cops (OSHA ) to enforce them.. or not enough cops to put the fear of the law into most of the bossesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Mike, Mike. All I see is selective enforcement and a written set of rules that cannot be followed without breaking the law in some way, no matter how safe you want to work.
How could I possibly layout the sill plate on the basement, if you're afraid that I'll fall into it? How can I put up a safety barrier around a stairwell hole, wouldn't I fall into it while I was creating it?
I can eliminate most dangers from buildings in one act of congress.....no more tall houses....7' ceilings max. No roof steeper than 2/12. Hand saws only. No nailing, screws only with hand screwdrivers.
That's safe.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
You pay for what others do. that's the cost of lving in a civilized society. If you don't feel it's proper to pay for living here please leave, you're taking up space for those who are willing to pay to live here.
As for opting out, sure you can opt out. Just don't cash the social security checks you get don't have any medical needs paid for in a hospital that taxs paid for, don't ever call the fire dept. or drive on public highways. please don't use the internet since it's a goverment funded network. Well hopefully you'll get the drift..
don't ever call the fire dept. or drive on public highways
You're stretching it now Frenchy. I pay my local taxes that support the fire department. I pay the taxes for fuels that build our roads. I pay federal taxes that support the internet.
Please explain this to me. I can work all day with a 24" chainsaw, no guard, no extended table, legally....but I can't do this with a 7 1/4" makita, on my own work!
You're missing the point. I'm not against safe practices, I'm against selective enforcement and political power plays.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Good comparison, Blue...any takers? Maybe put a kickstand on the Makita so when ya set it down,it won't chase you.lol
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Blue,
As I said to start, it's a complex society and we simply don't allow you to choose which items that you like and are willing to pay for and those which you don't care to support.
For example I think that it's a crime to have as much corporate welfare as we do. Based on your past posts I feel safe in assuming that you don't approve of the WIC program. Both of us are compelled to pay for things we don't care for.
Most roads are built with federal matching grants etc.. I know almost all bridges are.. I know that a lot of fire dept. pay for their equipment and sometimes their training with matching grants..
Regarding the use of a chainsaw. I believe (and I honestly don't know this for a fact) that professional loggers are required to wear the safety gear for their profession. When I used to sell logging equipment professional crews all wore that safety gear..
Now regarding the homeowner with a chainsaw I believe that here a stupid person is free to do anything they wish with regard to that. Same as a homeowner can get away with some terrible safety risks working on his own house.
I think that if you make your case regarding particular safety practices most OSHA inspectors will listen carefully and if they agree with you not write you up. If however your argument is about getting an advantage over those who comply with the rules and work safely I would expect them to write you up.
This seems difficult for you to grasp but please try to consider that it's in you best interest to conform to rules
That's right, it makes you money!
Here's how,
The easier it is to do something the more competition you'll have. Thus there are a lot of guys out there capable of building decks. Not as many can build a apartment building and fewer still can build an oil refinery..
I do agree with you regarding politics and power ploys however since both parties do it I don't ever see it stopping, do you?
I do agree with you regarding politics and power ploys however since both parties do it I don't ever see it stopping, do you?
Nope. But I don't have to like it, condone it, or defend it.
I guess, in the interests of OSHA and safety, I should leave my makita at home and pull out that chainsaw.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
This is via dictionary.com translator:
ESTO ES UN OSHA WORKSITEØ OBEDIENTE que se requieren los sombreros duros siempre que se requiera haya un peligro de la protección descendente de la caída de objects.
Ø mientras que trabaje en las alturas en o sobre 6’ (10’ para el trabajo que es realizado de escalas de scaffolding).
Ø debe ampliar 3’ sobre la superficie de la azotea cuando la escala se utiliza para tener acceso a la azotea. Las escalas deben ser OSHA compliant.
Ø todas las herramientas y el equipo debe ser OSHA obediente. Los protectores y los safetys deben estar en gafas de seguridad de place.
Ø deben ser usados cuando se requiere la energía de funcionamiento o los respiradores neumáticos de tools.
Ø cuando exponen a los trabajadores al polvo peligroso, pintura que es rociada, cada subcontratista de etc.
Ø es responsable de conformidad con todas las regulaciones del OSHA, porque del entrenamiento de seguridad su empleados y de subcontratistas y es responsable de cualquier multa que el OSHA pueda imponer.
Thanks, but I think in this case I need a real (bilingual) person... Matt
http://www.freetranslation.com/
ESTO ES UN OSHA LUGAR DE TRABAJO SUMISO
- Los sombreros duros se requieren siempre que hay un peligro de caer objetos.
- La protección de la caída se requiere al trabajar en alturas en o encima de 6’ (10’ para el trabajo para ser realizado del andamio).
- Las escaleras deben extender 3’ encima de la superficie de techo cuando la escalera se utiliza para conseguir acceso al techo. Las escaleras deben ser OSHA sumisas.
- Todo equipar con herramienta y el equipo debe ser OSHA sumiso. Los guardias y las seguridades deben estar en el lugar.
- Las gafas de la seguridad se deben llevar al operar el poder o instrumentos neumáticos.
- Los respiradores se requieren cuándo trabajadores son expuestos al polvo peligroso, la pintura para se rociar, etc.
- Cada subcontratista es responsable de la conformidad con todas regulaciones de OSHA, para la seguridad que entrena a sus empleados & subcontratistas y es responsable de cualquiera multa que OSHA puede recaudar.
Edited 2/20/2005 7:22 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Hope this helps. I'll attach it as a word document.
ESTE ES UN LUGAR DE TRABAJO OBEDIENTE A LAS REGLAS DE OSHA
Cascos o sombreros duros son requeridos cada véz y cuando haya peligro de que algún objeto se pueda caer.
Protección es requerida en casos donde haya peligro de que la persona se pueda caer cuando está trabajando en alturas mayores de 6 pies (10 pies cuando esta trabajando en escaleras armables o andamios).
Las escaleras deben de extenderse 3 pies pasando el techo, cuando la escalera es útilizada cómo acceso al techo. Las escaleras tienen que cumplir con las leyes requerias por OSHA.
Todas las herraminetas y equipo tiene que obedecer las leyes de OSHA.
Lentes de seguridad deben de ser utilizados cada vez y cuando se opera maquinaria o herramienta de motor o herramienta neumática.
Se requiren respiradores cuando los trabajadores son expuestos a polvos peligrosos, pinturas que son rociadas, etc.
Cada subcontratista es responsable por obedecer con todas las leyes de OSHA, por entrenar para tomar medidas de seguridad a sus empleados y subcontratistas y es responsable por cuálquier multa que OSHA le imponga.
mucho gracias!
I'll have roofers on site today. It will be interesting to see how they react.
Matt
Edited 2/21/2005 7:13 am ET by DIRISHINME
Just wanted to say thanks again for taking the time. Several of our hispanic brothers have read the signs and I noticed them nodding their head as they went down the list. Not a great conversation topic for the job site, but I think the guys are getting the message...
I got my fine reduced to $450 which I think is a WAY cheap lesson compared to having someone fall off the roof and get seriously injured or worse... :-(
Matt
since nobody 'official' told you to protect your workers, you didn't bother.
It really looks to me like you brits are using a double standard........was up? wonks don't get hard hats?
Bet you had yours on..................eh professional.
By the way your website is really nice............but your idea of construction needs a bit of tweaking.................
It's a damn far cry between a 2000 sq. foot residential house or remodel and what your building.
jj--I think you posted that last one to me by accident, am I right? Sounded like you were still discussing Mr. IDG's failure to walk his own talk....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
posted that last one to me by accident, am I right
Yes.......I'm with you all the way on this one.
But the fact is that most don't see it............think we're against safety instead of gov. infringment.
Personally in thirty years I have, nor has anyone working for me, ever been hurt bad save the normal stuff. I teach and watch every new kid and bitch at the guys who should know better.......I fire drinkers on the spot and no pot on the job site......after work if we're in the bush who cares.
My diatribe is NOT against safety..........real world experience has taught me that in RESIDENTIAL construction hard hats and steel toes do not a safe wall-walker make...............keeping the jobsite clear of junk, naily boards etc. does. I teach and watch (well.I used to) my guys like a mother hen.............
I resent Ian and his Professional.......attitude........the other guys, I know things are a-changin so I understand their view.............so my dino friend, stay safe............and shut down and go home if the revenoor's come to your neighborhood.
Well, you've already shown the value of your 'common-sense' approach to safety when you can't be bothered to tie off a ladder and think that humidity or compaction are the determining factors in shoring a trench.As I said before, bluster all you want but your attitude has no place in today's industry -- I agree with Gabe -- we want professionals, not cowboys like you.
I'll leave you to your chest-beating.
IanDG
Edited 9/22/2004 12:14 pm ET by IanDG
In this life there will always be points at which men of goodwill disagree.
Hence, the bagel...
Edited 9/22/2004 10:05 am ET by rez
For the second--and final--time: Don't try to put words in my mouth, Mister. If you can't debate based on what your opponent actually said, you are a sorry excuse for an advocate of your position.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
read heard and understand what ya said dino
if a whole lot more people along time ago realized that- before ya know whats happening your rights are gone cause you didnt pay attention
Rules formulated by any government or quasi-government bureaucracy are doomed to degenerate into an unfathomable and unfollowable quagmire of good ideas turned to idiocies...because those rules are made by button-down minds who work in a vaccuum at extreme arm's length from reality.
AHHH Dino........it does my old heart good to hear another voice crying in the wilderness.
It's sad to see this country that was once abounded with rugged, freedom seeking, hard working individualistic craftsmen ............turned and actually enjoying wallowing in Big Brothers mosh pit..........you wanna talk boring?
A know-not don't know, but he thinks he knows...........a Know just knows.
Personally if the not-knowers enjoy the rat wheel, that's their business............as for me and Patric Henry "give me liberty or give me death!" (did they really kill him?)
Psssst...there are fanatics at 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock...good thing we have borders.
Yeah, they did.
But he won, because we remember his name and not theirs....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
finally you call yourself a professional, damn it, be one.
Govt hacks twist words and apply new meanings to simple truth.............. You sound like a government hack who wouldn't know a professional if it bit him in the ####...................bet you ain't never framed a house in your life....or walked a wall.......
You sound like a government hack who wouldn't know a professional if it bit him in the ####...................bet you ain't never framed a house in your life....or walked a wall.......
You're just as wrong about me as you are about safety.
Gabe
Edited 9/22/2004 5:25 pm ET by GABE_MARTEL
There's one vital aspect to this safety discussion that most of you are forgetting. The safety regulations are mostly industry generated. It's our construction associations that promote safe building practices and it's our associations that consult with the various safety boards to bring about new regulations to better protect workers.
This is not government coming down on the poor construction workers this is construction people saying safety is job one.
We have building codes and we have safety regulations in order to have that perverbial level playing field when bidding projects. People who cut corners on either are simply trying to get away with lower standards of workmanship in order to get work.
May seem harsh but it's a fact.
Gabe
Got to agree. I've gotten visited by OSHA twice. The first time I was roofing a church on the same block as the OSHA office. Nearly done when we got our visit. Inspector told he he never would have stopped ( he had looked us over driving by ) until someone reported us for not having toe boards on our scaffolding (more than likely someone else who had bid on the job). He had noticed that, but realized that the scaffold was just a safety precaution and materials storage spot. We weren't actually working on the scaffold. Got a $700.00 fine, but he also walked me around the job and showed me several other areas we could "improve on", meaning fix 'em before I come back again. These were all minor things, easy to correct, and made our workplace a little safer. The second time, no fine, but got the walk thru and suggestions again. Neither visit was unpleasant (although I wish I had that $700 back ), but after we made the changes, we had a little safer work place and we started incorperating those things into our next setup.
I've had two serious falls and I've seen several other people hit the ground. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. There are hung-like-a-hamster inspectors out there that just want to make your life miserable, but they are the minority. Most of them know their job is to save us from ourselves and understand we don't want to change our ways, but the day I don't learn something new will be the first one in 50 years.
Invented fall protection boxer shorts.
There's one vital aspect to this safety discussion that most of you are forgetting. The safety regulations are mostly industry generated.
Gabe, I hadn't forgotten that, I just kinda flew past it in a rush of poetic license, LOL....
It's true what you say; a lot of the original safety rules were internally generated by outfits that saw the bad side of job-site injuries. It makes perfect sense any way you look at it to want one's site to be accident free or as close to it as possible, and striving for that is a worthy goal--one I follow personally every time I do anything, from fixing a busted patio tile to roofing a 25-in-12 A-frame to framing a three-storey gambrel roof.
The thrust of my argument is directed not against safe work practices, but against the blind acceptance of 'official' safety rules by people who know better through their long and hard-earned experience on the job. Like you.
You've been around long enough to have seen both good and bad BI's and SI's. You probably--almost certainly--have a better feel for what's safe on your sites for your people than anybody coming in from the outside with a fat rulebook written for the general case. But the legal position now is that in spite of your superior competence, you have to bow to rules that, while they may once have been founded on experience, have now been tinkered with and expanded for years and years by REMFs who've never set foot on a roof or a ridge beam but are great at writing reams and reams of impressive sounding legalistic prose.
Official rules are always written for the general case, and for the worst case. But your situation on site is not a general one, and you should have the authority to exercise your judgement based on the specific circumstances with which you are faced. You look up at the ladder. You see that it's a virtually new Class 1 Fibreglas 20 footer, and it's extended only four rungs. You see that it's at the correct angle of lean, and that the top is jammed tight between a corner wall on one side and a window casing on the other. You see that the feet are flipped and the claws are firmly planted in flat, smooth turf. You know that the man who will be working on that ladder has been with you for 8 years and is highly experienced at this type of work and has a perfect safety record. And you also know that he's gonna be up there for about 5 minutes, just long enough to scribe the joint between two complex fascias.
Do you really want some suit to come in and tell you you've got to tie that ladder off and make your carp put on a harness with two explosive leashes? Or would you prefer that the government respect your hard common sense and turn the decision over to you?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Ive just read your second post and it doesnt look like ill get through this whole thread before I go to work . I felt like responding .
I applaud what you are saying and I will add a few things.
Im an inspector now as you know . 90 percent of the problems I correct are made of money. " We dont have the time or money". " Were over budget" , "You are putting a financial strain on us ".
I shut a bank down over a drinking fountain ! They complied after a fight over a drinking fountain double handicap . Single cost 369 , double cost 800. I dont have enough time or room to write all this but heres one more;
I have a plan reviewer working under me right now. The hospital wants him to have mercy on their souls and pocket book and disregaurd the double drinking fountain over the same 800 dollar issue. They also fought fire hydrants, enough bathrooms , and their chief excuse was money.
A year ago last Setember I was admitted to that same hospital . The insurance company and I spend 165,000 and I didnt notice any breaks . I didnt have all the money at the time , but I have payed it off . [my portion] I did with out some things to make it happen and could have used a break as everyone else could Im sure . There wasnt one.
If they want power and water at their facility , I better see the things above installed.
I also inspect every construction job going up and get to see first hand the poor tradesmen working . Many times they dont have the money for their permits and charge them. They cant afford the equiptment they need . They dont drive new trucks and their wife dosent drive a new car by a long shot. They live week by week . They cannot afford classes in their own trade and neither can the contractor. A letter was sent to me saying that Arkansas is in trouble in the trade industry. The masters and journeymans are not replacing them selves. There is more work going on and less being licensed.
Its a poor deal out there where tradesmen work for the love of their work instead of the money.
I agree with your point and the posters . There is a problem out there as you and I say , but hes working in reality. Theres no money. The trades is a p*ss poor business being ran. Im sory for the comment , but its stands. Its a billion dollar industry that is ran by people who normally dont have a college education and many fail every year . There are equiptment auctions going on every day! Theres a reason behind it .
Tim Mooney
Edited 9/20/2004 10:29 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Theres a reason behind it .
You're right, it is about money.........
the reason behind the lack of capitol in most builders pockets is because of competition...........because a long time ago guys thought it was a good idea to give free estimates, free this, cut that......bottom line this.......cut your other builder buddies throats by forgetting overhead and working for wages.
We piss and moan, but we've done it to ourselves.........we build a whole damn house for about the same profit as the realtor makes in one simple transaction........
We allow every tin horn gov hack who needs a few bucks freely into our back pocket.
We pay out a hundred different ways and call it the cost of doing business..........
while every profession except ours sticks together and helps one another rake in the dough we attack and cut each others throats. We are a bunch of ignorant, itinerant, imbiciles for ever starting this freeby #### in the first place.
You are singing to the singing damsels , sir !
Tim Mooney
You are singing to the singing damsels , sir !
I know Tim, but it's true...............but then again it's also why I like it.........it's not the gold that's important, it's seeking the gold...............I love building stuff and have done OK for myself along the way.
Ive been around it for a long time as I was raised by a builder . Its never changed plus dad and grandpappy would say the same from their stories.
Funny thing, grand was a builder but was never called that. He was called a carpenter and noone else he knew was called "builder. "
I remember growing up it was a brotherhood , or at least it was for us in rural Arkansas. First book that came close was a plumbing book you could learn from, and then several years later I saw an electrical book and said wow.
Anyway carps didnt learn from books back then as it was taught on the job. [at least here ]
So, you bought some tools and helped someone. Started out like that and started learning and buying more tools as they were needed. Then the pickup truck had to have a box or a truck had to be bought. Organizing became something. Sharpening skill saw blades clamping them with a #16 box nail @ a piece of plywood as an anchor . [lunch time project]
At some point or another a feller decides to "stick". I dont know when or how , but he feels like he belongs to the work and gets comfortable. I think when he gets to the point that he is turning off tasks with common ease, [ hes getting good] the love relationship starts that beams pride in accomplishment. Hes married to the trades at that point and a divorce will never be a willing thing in his or her heart . A tradesman is made and it didnt have anything to do with money other than the need to survive . He stuck because it hooked him line and sinker. He sold out to his heart , not his pocket book.
Thats the type of people that are in the residental building business , not business men as a rule. Oh we have developers that build to suit , but they arent the builders even though they aquire licenses.
Tim Mooney
Thanks for a fine essay Tim.
Those days are not yet entirely bygone. Although it may make one yearn for them.
Fortunately, there are still a lot of good carpenters out there, and some good people rising in the ranks who are willing to actually LEARN something.
The "Old Man" as we used to call him; the first builder I ever worked for, used to tell us; "If you know how to use your hands, you will never go hungry!".
Well, I never have, and the trade has been good to me, and I expect it will prosper as much as I am willing to put into it.
My Grandpa also was a "builder". I know where there are some fine homes he built in the early 1900's Unfortunately, I was unable to directly benefit from his knowledge and experience.......but I do often feel someone looking over my shoulder......
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
.......but I do often feel someone looking over my shoulder......
Yeah Eric.... that's OSHA!
YOU BASTID!!!!!!!!!!! You broke my MOJO!!!
I'm screwed now, what the F am I gonna do now??
GRANDPAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Yeah.... I'm a prick sometimes.
and some good people rising in the ranks who are willing to actually LEARN something.
I think this is one of the problems today...........we live in a tell-me-what-to-do world where everybody from the top on down plays pass-the-buck...........and NOBODY wants to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.
Individualism (the one thing all governments fear) is quietly being stripped from us and beaucracy's collar and leash is welcomed by many, even here in what I thought was a carpenters forum the trend remains the same.
Reminds me of when I was salmon fishing in Alaska...........you surround the school of fish with a wide net and slowly close the noose.
For a while they have no idea they're trapped, then they begin to run out of swimming room and soon they are smashing against their brother fishes as they are pulled out of the water. In the end they are dropped into a dark hold , gasping for breath while being crushed to a slimy ketchup-looking goo...............
In the beginning they didn't know, or believe this would happen to them. Their only thought was on going upriver and dropping their sperm.
I love a good analogy.........bravo!!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Bob,
I'm gonna take the plunge with you and probably catch some heat, but at least I'll be telling the truth. In fact I'm willing to bet that many others here agree with us, but won't stick their neck out and say it out of fear of the repercussions and judgement by others around here. I understand.... totally.
The whole OSHA way of working, when applied to small-time residential work... is a precarious line to walk, at best. OSHA is necessary, yes, but still, very hard to work around being a smaller sub-contractor trying to compete and still make a decent living.
Framing is inherently dangerous. It's a physically demanding and sometimes dangerous job. And the pay reflects it to some degree. A guy with zero experience can walk into MacDonald's and make around $7/hr or he can walk onto my crew and make around $12 or $15. How bad do you want it?
I agree with and don't have a problem with simple common sense job-site safety. I can provide hardhats, safety glasses, and ear protection... no problem. Can I make the guys wear them ALL the time? That's debateable. They can easily walk and go work somewhere else if I drive 'em nuts enough. I can also have newish, safe, unmodified tools on the jobsite without any problems. And I can also make sure we are using properly sized extension cords in good working order. These things are common sense and easily dealt with.
Can I realisticaly get my guys to put a harness on and tie off everytime they get on a step ladder? Nope. Can I afford for them to do that even if they would? Nope. The obvious response to that is going to be, "well can you afford a W/C claim?". Nope. Can't afford that either. So what am I supposed to do? Go work at Home Depot? It's very easy for some of you guys with 20yr plus old businesses who pick and choose the jobs you do to sit there and criticize. But let me ask you, what was it like when you started out? What was it really like?" Have you always had those reliable guys who show up everyday and follow your every direction? Have you always had that 3" thick employee manual to quote from? Have you always had those written company safety policies in place that you could use to "write someone up" and cover your azz with? I bet you haven't. I'm also willing to bet that you haven't always been able to provide those juicy benefit packages that keep your guys sticking around long enough to properly train them in both their trade and in proper job-site safety.
I do the best I can. I've bought wall jacks so no-one has to stand in the line of fire while raising the big heavy stuff. Tools are in good working order with sharp blades and good cords. But, we use wall brackets without any guardrail. And my roofers use roof jacks and walk boards, but rarely a harness or roof jacks with guardrails. In fact I've only actually SEEN them on one residential job-site around here in the past 5 years or so and they were on a "in house" built site being framed by a very long established GC in our area. This guy also has five box trucks lettered up nicely, a dedicated roofing outfit, a dedicated finish crew, a dedicated framing crew, does his own site work etc. Thats way oughta my league.
Someone wanna tell me how to tie off when you're up on staging and setting a ridge?
If you think GC's are gonna pay for what it would take me to run a fully OSHA compliant crew, you're crazy. You think I can afford to have a guy tied off at the ridge whose only job is to move the sheathing guy's hose and rope out of his way? That's what they want to see. You think a GC is going to pay what it would cost to spend two days scaffolding a jobsite for trim out? You think I can afford all that scaffolding? But can I build temporarily railings around stair cases and open foyers? You betcha. And I can carry W/C in case the unthinkable happens.
I understand why OSHA is necessary. And in big business it works well. It protects the $10/hr guy from having to work in an unsafe environment while the suits make millions off of their misfortune.
I really do the best I can right now. But, we gotta work. I really am happy for those of you who don't have to be "competitive" anymore. Buy you are the exception, not the rule.
FWIW... my experience with OSHA on residential sites has been different than what has been described here. Around here, they DON'T go up the food chain with the fines. They hit the subs. Directly. And hard at that. The GC has walked in every case here that I've known of. Framers get hit and roofers get hit. That has been my experience in residential work in my area. And that's why they don't pay around here.
And if you think any of this means that I don't care about my guys and only care about the bottom line, you can go F- yourself. Nothing could be further from the truth.
As a G/C that pretty much builds from foundation to turnkey with a small crew, I find the truth somewhere between dieselpig and 4Lorn.
OSHA, while a federal set of regs, is generally administered by the individual states.
In Oregon, at least, the first inspection to a worksite is spawned by one of several events: a complaint about a jobsite by an employee; an investigation following a reportable accident; a random inspection that is preceded by a notification to the employer that a workplace inspection is forthcoming. Of course, once they've visited an employer that first time, he's fairgame forever on.
As has been mentioned, most any workplace has a pending violation somewhere; it may be something as simple as absense of a written safety program, extention cords without quarterly groundfault tests, to ladders or scaffolding not being tied off, etc.
Someone mentioned $10,000 fines: That's almost unheard of on an initial inspection; I suppose if an inspector showed up and your employees were doing backflips to dismount the roof, you might get hammered....:-).
Initial fines, even for serious violations, seldom exceed $1000. But a followup inspection that reveal the same problems will result in a repeat citation and a bigger fine, and the 3rd time falls into "willful" and brings on the heavy duty fines.
Of course, if the worksite is especially dangerous, an inspector has the authority to shut it down immediately (pretty rare).
And all employers are entitled to contest the citations and, just like in traffic court, most times the fines are lowered or dismissed altogether, especially if a conscientious effort to correct problems is demonstrated.
I was a Maintenance and Engineering Manager for a large corporation for a number of years, working in a 40-year-old Old Growth wood products complex, built prior to any OSHA regs. Just the ergonomic issues alone were a nightmare, but the repetitive violations in the shops alone drove me nuts.
For example, my Millwrights and electricians and machinists were diligent about keeping guards and tool rests on bench grinders properly adjusted, but the problem was the production guy who'd drift into a shop on the night shift and grind his axe or hunting knife and leave the grinder as a source of income to the state.
But I also tend to agree with those here that employees should bear some responsibility for their own safety: I can buy safety grasses, hearing protection, fall protection, hold regular safety meetings, make sure my supplied equipment is in good repair, etc., but it's just not possible to be a mother hen every minite of every day.
I would love to see, just once, an OSHA inspector walk up to an employee who is ripping a sheet of plywood with his safety glasses dangling around his neck and hand him a citation for. say $100.
BTW, our local inspector is widely regarded as a harda$$. His daughter sometimes works for me as a painter. A couple of years ago, she and one of her employees was painting a high wall on a local hospital and he cited her for not having her scaffolding tied off. (At least he's evenhanded!)
All in all, I believe the safety regs to be a good thing. I grew up around a lot of old loggers and millworkers and farmers with missing limbs or a missing eye, or a missing relative who was killed on a job. And I'm acquainted with a few good men with paralysis of various degrees who took a risk one too many times.
What you describe is balance. That's where I was trying to go with my post, but you've done a much better job.
EDIT: FWIW, I only have one firsthand experience with OSHA, the rest have been word of mouth from peers. I was working for my former boss on a job where we beat out a union crew for the job. Lots of suspicious stuff happened on that job, from theft, to vandalism, to our very first OSHA inspection. No warning of the forthcoming inspection. The inspector walked onsite and handed out $7500 in fines. Violations included no hard hats, steel toe boots, improper lighting, lack of safety glasses.... and me. I was on a five foot wide catwalk that ran across the back of the building, maybe 20 feet up, without a harness. It almost put my boss under. The GC in this case offered to split the fines with my boss, which saved the job and maybe even his company.
Edited 9/18/2004 12:03 pm ET by dieselpig
I can't understand the inability of contractors to enforce basic rules like hardhats, steel toes and safety glasses.
Shirts, majority natural fibers only as they won't melt to the skin, over the shoulders, leather gloves, earplugs at hand and long pants, again majority natural fibers, were added to the list of requirements at the shipyard.
Most large jobs, the only jobs typically big enough to keep me on site for more than a few hours, make it a condition of employment that the workers will wear all of the above. Failure to do it the first time gets a warning, second time a written notice and your sent home. Third time your fired. Compliance is very high.
You demand the help show up. Show up on time. Sober. You demand that they have basic hand tools in good condition. You demand the help not harass the neighbors or drive their trucks wildly around the area and failure to comply will get them fired once warned. All this says you have control but so many just can't be bothered enforcing safety standards.
Get as serious about safety as you are about getting the building put together square and plumb and you have very little to fear from OSHA or, an upcoming trend, inspections by your insurance company. You think OSHA is harsh. Your insurance company knows you can't operate or maintain a business without insurance. All insurance companies communicate. What one finds goes into a data base accessible to all, same as health information and traffic infractions with auto insurance. This limits your ability to shop around.
Expect to see clauses authorizing complete access to your site at any time and for any reason. You think a $1000 dollar fine is rough. Try having your rates double for a year. Because your nephew refuses to wear safety glasses and hook up working on the roof.
Seems unfair until you figure out the total cost of a fairly large house would just barely cover the cost, treatment and lost wages, of a major and debilitating injury. Particularly head and spinal cord injuries.
Don't laugh. I have a couple of friends in insurance and it is coming. They know most claims come from a few contractors. They want the leverage to put people who cause the most harm out of business. Welcome to the 21st century. It will likely start as a voluntary program. They reduce your rates a little if you agree to spot inspections and might offer additional breaks for each inspection passed.
Within a few years after inception this will be the most common model and within another decade you won't be able to find insurance without these conditions.
of course national health care could drastically change this picture. Who do you suppose will be more friendly? A government inspector that can fine you a few thousand or the inspector from the insurance company that can revoke your insurance and shut you down on the spot. Interesting choice.
Well, that will definitely be a first! Having a rep from an insurance underwriter visit a jobsite!
You know, I've asked my agent to arrange such a thing, but the underwriters won't even TALK to me, much less visit a jobsite to satisfy themselves that maybe I do the kind of work that doesn't justify a mega-annual premium!
You need a new agent if you cannot get a jobsite inspection... very common in both WC insurance and GL insurance.... especially when requested by the policy holder. Most good insurance companies will also provide a risk management consultation to assist in obtaining lower premiums (in return for a safer work-site) if requested.
The coming of insurance spot inspections are indeed a coming trend... especially if you have a claim or two. If you read your contract... it probably requires you to allow access already for inspection. It hasn't been actively enforced, except in accident investigations... but look for it to be enforced highly for targeted inspections in the very near future.
back to the cost of doing things "right" regarding OSHA. Yes, it is an initial expense. Yes, it may cost you a few dollars to keep everything current. Yes, there should be liability for the employee who willfully violates a safety reg (but that ain't the way it "is").
FWIW, if you have a violation, the best "defense" is to show that you have conducted the training of the employee NOT to do what is cited in the violation. This is not that expensive to accomplish. Depending on the state in which you live... it can be done for free or at a very low cost. Granted... you have to pay the employee to attend... but that is just a cost of doing business.
Two safety training days/year is not that hard to do. A monthly "refresher" meeting is not expensive. The materials are either free... or so low in cost that they are negligible.
I came out of a risk management background. The total cost of establishing my safety program was less that $1K. The total budget that I have for safety training and equipment is 3%, after my initial investment in safety equipment and the program. My savings in WC premiums and GL premiums exceeded my outlay by 35% last year... in other words... I MADE money on my safety program. One of the best returns-on-investment I had!
Yea.. it is a pain in the tail. But if your company becomes a "culture of safety", it becomes second nature and not a big deal. It will, over time... actually work to RETAIN your employees. Safety is cited as the fourth most common reason for an employee to resign in a blue-collar job title. How much does it cost to lose an employee? A lot.
Might I also suggest a safety bonus for your employees? Not real hard... if the company is safe (and has no cited violations from any entity)... your employees get an additional "dollar amount" added to their pay for the next quarter. They have an accident or a violation... it gets taken away. Peer pressure becomes HUGE to have a safe work-site. The larger the incentive... the larger the peer-pressure. My guys can lose $1.00 on the hour for an accident for an entire quarter.. and it takes them 2 quarters to "earn" it back... they tell ME to put on my hard-hat if they see me without one... even if I am in the side lot!
Just a few thoughts...
Let me clarify: Getting a jobsite inspection from my WC carrier is no problem. It's the GL I was carping about.....the Liability issue has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.
My agent is not the issue....the underwriter WILL NOT do a face to face with me or visit a jobsite.
No claims, 583% increase in premiums....they want to visit me and talk about mold prevention, or drainage or seismic compliance?.....I say "Come on Down!!"
To your other points:
I have regular, documented safety meetings, have access to training materials, keep current on the regs. I've been involved in all that big-time and small time for 30 some years now.
But when you're building one or two custom homes a year with 4 or 5 employees and a few subs for HVAC, electrical, plumbing, etc., your risk management department is a little short-handed.
I think that is what Dieselpig is annoyed by....Operators like him and me, while we like what we do, retain our employees, and are competent business people, probably don't operate on an economy of scale that always works in our favor.
And I'm familiar with the safety bonus deal....one local independent mill had a program like that a few years back. The bonus was good and the peer pressure became so great that some injuries were not being reported. That operation ended up with a landslide of comp claims when some of the injuries got to the point of requiring treatment, like carpal tunnel surgeries and rotator cuff injuries and the employer's attempt to pull the bonuses resulted in litigation.
You are correct... the "underwriter" will not do a personal visit... that is not an underwriter's area of expertise.
They should, however, offer to have a risk assessment professional visit your business and help reduce your liability issues. That is in their better interest... it is in your better interest. If not... it's time to find another insurance company and/or another insurance agent.
I realize the fact that small employers have a difficult time with safety compliance. I have 6 employees and a few subs. My risk management department is REAL shorthanded... doesn't mean that I cannot make safety a profit center, instead of a liability. As I said... I have exceeded the amount of $$ I spend on reductions in insurance costs alone.
"Economy of scale" is a small factor in the cost structure in the initial startup. It is a factor in large-scale safety gear... but my argument would be that if you do enough work to require certain safety gear... you should be able to budget for it. If not, then that particular task should be subbed to a specialty contractor that has the capability to do the job safely.
When a safety bonus program is evaluated on the basis of one bad example... you can make all kinds of excuses. If the mill did not have appropriate injury reporting measures and did not have supervisors that took responsibility to assure that accidents and injuries/industrial injuries were reported properly... that is an ENTIRELY different issue. If the mill knew of injuries that were not reported... then they SHOULD have had litigation. That is negligence.
My bet, however, is that the pulling of safety bonus was not the issue in the lawsuit... but rather a negligence issue. The reason I say this is based on the "landslide" of claims. A large number of repetitive stress claims is an indicator of a systemic problem in the workplace... not always the case... but systemic in more cases than not. I would also bet that the litigation was based on the ergonomic rules that were implemented... or the ergonomic rules that have been proposed... as part of the OSHA code.
Of course... I am not intimately familiar with the situation... a lawsuit can be brought for almost any reason if you find a sympathetic attorney and a judge that is willing to tolerate it. If it was for the reason you cite... then the structure of the safety bonus was very poor. Safety bonuses are completely legitimate and very enforceable when done properly.
I presume it varies from State to State but on residential sites in Montana I've seen guys working above a 20' drop to concrete with no protection at all and guys working shoulder-deep in an unsupported trench. In both those cases, one "accident" and someone dies.
Should a guy have to risk death to earn a living just because his employer can't afford to 'work safe'?
IanDG
Ian,
all I'll say is this... there is alot of grey area in "working safe". NFL football players could get killed on any given Sunday. Literally. They probably stand a better chance of getting seriously injured than you or I do. Where's OSHA on Sunday? Or does the money justify the risk?
And who's looking after my butt? Certainly not W/C. Should the GC be responsible for providing me with what I need ($) to create this environment you speak of? My choice is to walk. It's the same choice my guys have if you really look at the situation clearly.
There are degrees of risk and working unsafe at heights or below waist deep in an unsupported trench is far more likely to lead to death than playing football -- as well you know.
Personally I find the bean-counting attitude to the cost of providing a safe work environment disgusting. I'm right alongside the idea of charging the person responsible for an unsafe situation resulting in death with negligent homicide -- if that was on the debit side of the balance sheet maybe attitudes would change.
IanDG
Like I said Ian.... balance. You're taking the two exteme examples that were discussed here. That's black and white.
I'm talking about the grey stuff. The tank tops and six foot step ladder stuff.
EDIT: I see that you're retired Ian. What was your position or job during the majority of your carreer?
Edited 9/18/2004 12:46 pm ET by dieselpig
You're taking the two extreme examples that were discussed here.
No -- I've already said there are degrees of risk but when that risk includes death or permanent disablement then it can't be justified on economic grounds.
What was your position or job during the majority of your career?I worked in my grandfather's/father's construction [housing] company in England and for a short time in Portugal -- then back to England as a carpenter subcontractor then Project Manager on just about all types of construction in England, Saudi and Australia then as a flooring contractor in Australia. With diversions converting a building into -- and running -- an old people's home and site engineer on a pipeline.Still working [unpaid] on renovating houses.
IanDG
Given that your extensive backgroud in construction seems to involve main big business and long established companies, is it possible that you just don't fully understand the economics of small time sub contractors trying to make a living in the Unitied States?
You can jump on me if you want, and say that safety shouldn't come down to economics. And I agree. Idealistically anyway. But the sad truth is that it does. Therefore, we are left to make the best of it. Or get out. I choose to make the best of it.
I guess, for me, this is about a much bigger problem all together. That is that nobody is held accountable for their own actions anymore. In fact, it's not even a new thing. Laws and rules are created because people can't be trusted to use their common sense. And there seems to be less and less common sense around these days. I've stopped my guys on more than one occasion and had them add more bracing to staging, or had them find a safer way of doing something. All the OSHA regulations in the world can't stop stupidity or laziness. Or self-will for that matter.
is it possible that you just don't fully understand the economics of small time sub contractors trying to make a living in the United States?"I don't suppose the economics differ that much from England or Australia and I've worked as subcontractor in both those places. I am learning more about America as I go.
"Laws and rules are created because people can't be trusted to use their common sense." -- because people can't be trusted -- period!A lot of accidents happen because short cuts are taken -- the saw guard fixed back -- the ladder not tied off. As for common sense, the building trade employs all sorts and not all of them are rocket scientists -- I've seen some unbelievably stupid things done in my time -- as I expect you have -- and the regulations are there to protect you against such stupid people.
IanDG
Ian,
I need to clarify some things, I re-read and I can see where you are going with this. What I try to do is make my jobsites as safe as I can given what I have to work with. I would NEVER ask one of my men to do something I wouldn't do myself. And I would never MAKE them do something they weren't comfortable with. I also wouldn't tolerate any chastising from the other guys should one guy find himself in a situation he wasn't comfortable with.
I'm just trying to be realistic.
Personally I find the bean-counting attitude to the cost of providing a safe work environment disgusting.
Like I said earlier, "if you think any of this means I care more about the bottom line than I do about my guys, you can go f-yourself. Nothing could be further from the truth." That either fits for you or it doesn't fit. Only you can make that call. I sincerely hope that it doesn't fit.
Some musings on this OSHA question: Seems to me like it is the economic dynamics of financing and building that drives this tug of war over safety. Here's an explanation that goes beyond the good vs. bad contractor caricature.
First the dynamics: Most HOs are price sensitive - sometimes to their detriment - so they tend to choose the cheapest contractor/subs who promise the nearest possession date. Many HOs delay signing contracts until the proverbial last minute (Fall), and then they're in a big rush because of carrying and bridging costs, and they want to celebrate X-Mas in the new house. Then it rains for 6 weeks and crucial materials are delayed while others are short-shipped. You know the routine.
Now the player's response: Since materials and labour tend to be similarly priced on a regional basis, the contractor is forced to pare away where he can: margins are shaved, quality and job safety suffers, and, non-documented or lower-skilled low-wage labourers are hired.
So then OSHA shows up with their fines. Big fines are an effort to reintroduce the real cost of safety to the economics of building. Big fines reinforce the money side (as opposed to the moral side) of 'safety pays'. However, there aren't enough inspectors to go around so many jobsites go uninspected, which rewards - in the short term - those contractors who choose to pare away on margins/safety. That is until someone gets hurt.
Let's face it: whenever a contractor bids on a job, he ought to factor in the cost of safety. If he omits to do so, he has entered into a situation where the job's economics force him to skimp on safety. However, with the thin margins forced upon him by the economic dynamics mentioned in my second paragraph, he can't afford safety for his crew and subs. But since not all sites are inspected, the temptation remains to overlook job safety. And so on it goes...
Seems to me we all have a part to play in the safety equation: HOs, banks, OSHA, workers, contractors. I don't foresee the situation ever changing, given the economic impetus that drives our collective behaviour and the building process. We aren't really 'good' or 'bad', we are simply responding to short-term economics as humans have always done.
What of the well-established, safety conscious builders? Builders who are in a position to turn down work? They, like the other well-established builders that bid against them (and often not), have experienced, well-equipped, disciplined crews that expect to work safely and get good wages and benefits. You're bidding on an even footing as all of you factor in the short-term costs of safety. As a result, all of you - and your subs and crews - enjoy the immediate and long-term benefits of safety.
I'd like to know how you well-established guys managed to transcend the economic dynamics... How would you characterize your HO customers? What are their economic drivers?
Nicely said.
If I can comment on your question regard long-established contractors: My best guess, and the thing that keeps me pounding nails, is a simple answer. Time. Time stands for Things I Must Earn. Like benefits and experience, safety will grow. As it is now I put a ton of money back into my small company. And with that money comes new equipment. Better equipment, safer equipment, and more expensive equipment.
And while that growth is going on, another type of growth is going on. Experience. I'll make better contacts and more contacts. I'll have a better opportunity to pick and choose my jobs. I will also have a reputation that proceeds me. One that says "this guy's price is justified by his work environment and the quality of his product". These are things that can not be learned in school or bought with cash. They just must be earned.
In the meantime, we small guys, put our best foot forward every damn morning. Rain or shine. And do the best we can to provide the best wages, benefits, and working environment that we can... until better times come.
If someone has a better solution, I'm all ears. It's easy to be black and white on this and idealistic as well. But the real world isn't very idealistic.
if you think any of this means I care more about the bottom line than I do about my guys, you can go f-yourself. Nothing could be further from the truth."
No, the fact that you were working under the same conditions yourself covers that but the whole argument of "can't afford to work safely" doesn't hold up when you look at the cost of an accident to you in monetary [let alone human] terms. In fact you said as much yourself -- that you're taking a gamble that nothing happens.
I've worked on building sites for over 50 years and just about every safety regulation ever passed in that time has been resisted by the 'bean-counters' on the basis of cost.
Most of the safety inspectorate that I've met aren't in the business of closing down sites or imposing large fines unless something major is wrong or a previous ticket has been ignored.
The other aspect of the safety inspectorate is education -- a lot of times people underestimate or simply don't understand the dangers of what they are doing -- working below waist level in an unsupported trench is a good example or that you're more likely to be killed falling 5' to 10' than you are 10' to 20'.
IanDG
Ian,
I appreciate your experience and outlook on this. Seriously. But I think that you are being idealistic about this.
No, the fact that you were working under the same conditions yourself covers that but the whole argument of "can't afford to work safely" doesn't hold up when you look at the cost of an accident to you in monetary [let alone human] terms. In fact you said as much yourself -- that you're taking a gamble that nothing happens.
I agree completely with you in this paragraph. It is a gamble to some degree. And the fact is that I can't afford EITHER. So what is the solution? Am I alone to try to change the housing market in the United States. That's what we're really talking about here isn't it. What the market will bear? I'd like to charge 3 times what I'm getting just so I can put the whole foundation under a heated tent and build comfortably and safely all year long. This tent would also cover the full scaffolding that goes up around the house I'm framing. Who's going to pay for that? You, when you purchase your next home?
It's a bigger issue than just the contractor and his crew. The problem is that it's the little guy who pays the price. It's like not tipping the delivery boy cuz your pizza came with mushrooms and you wanted roni. The fact is, this is a dangerous business. Physically and financially. You play or you take your ball and go home.
I think that you are being idealistic about this."You're probably right but if it wasn't for the idealists we'd still have the accident rates of the 50s. All the time accidents are regarded as "part of the job" there's no incentive to make the trade safer.
Pierre had a good point in that if the regulations were rigorously enforced then the contractors that gain a cost advantage by cutting corners would be forced to stop.
IanDG
I'd like to say this to you and Dieselpig, for once a discussion has taken place on the Breaktime forums where both viewpoints were treated respectfully. It's about time. Kudos (I just don't sound manly saying "kudos" :-)) to both of you. Now if we could get Diesel to shave his goatee!!! just kidding. :-)
........ and what's wrong with a goatee? -- I've had one since '72
IanDG
Here's one for ya brother....
muchos gracis!!!! I used reverse psychology on you just to get that pic :-)
uhhhh.....you really don't have to try very hard to trick me Tim!
But.....ummmm.....how do I say this?.....
What in God's name would you want that picture for!?!?
dartboard :-)
Niiiiiiiiiiiice!
Ian,
I'm gonna step in here again..........I think you and diesel are arguing this from two entirely different perspectives and thus you may never reach exact agreement.
In all fairness to you, I will state that I sorta know D, and that I too, am a contractor, though smaller in size than Diesel.
D is and entrepenuer in the good ole US of A. He's a cowboy, plain and simple. He takes risks every day and on every job. Calculated, but risks just the same. He makes things as safe as possible for him and his crew whether considering the risks of contracting a job or actually physically doing it. He has a family as do his employees and subs. You may not imply for any reason that he does not care about job safety unless you have actually visited his job site. As he stated, he would not expect anyone on his crew to do something he wouldn't.
You simply cannot monitor a crew all day long and still get work done. That is where using your God given intelligence comes into play, making a desision as to the risks of a given task and accepting the outcome of doing it that way. i f your boss wants you to do something stupid, then you leave, It's a choice. An employee can't force his employer to work safe any more than an employer make his employees work safe. Try to, sure, and of course.
Does an employee have a right to safe working condition? Sure, within reason. I'm not gonna lay out mattresses and rubber coat every thing. Construction is inherently dangerous, that's why you see warnings all over the place on every product and piece of literature you pick up. Then you make a decision. Is this for me or is it too dangerous. You simply cannot remove the factor of danger from every occupation, it can't be done!
You obviously come from more of and industrial or engineering background where safety rules and guides, as well as institutions regulating the rules and standard are much more common place and more accepted than they are in small business in the USA. Small business here would like the govt. to get the hell out of our business! We don't wish to be told how or when to do something or the proper equipment and training to accomplish it. Perhaps if they were more proactive, handed out equipment rather than fines, they might have a better chance at getting small bus, to accept their rules.
You are both right in your own way! You each have a very different background and current situation from which to speak.
Just my 2cents!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
"You obviously come from more of and industrial or engineering background"
I laid out my background but I'll repeat the parts you obviously didn't understand.
1. I worked for the family business building houses.
2. I worked as a carpenter sub-contractor in England
3. I worked as a flooring sub-contractor in Australia
"We don't wish to be told how or when to do something or the proper equipment and training to accomplish it."Well that's just too bad because those safety regulations aren't optional.
You're going to have to find a way to work with them or be driven out of business because the attitude of "if you don't like it then get another job" might have been alright 50 years ago but nowadays it doesn't fly.
IanDG
So what you're REALLY saying is that you've NEVER had to deal with OSHA...right? It's a USA thing.
Do you think that neither Australia nor England have a safety inspectorate? -- or perhaps you imagine America's safety regulations are superior to everyone elses?
IanDG
Nope, you guys are totally different, not the same, this is the wild west...it's a USA thing, you wouldn't understand. Sorry.
I understand that your safety regulations are non-negotiable, that if you're caught breaking the rules you're punished and if you're punished enough you go out of business.
Correct? -- or do you see yourself as above the law?
IanDG
Ian,
I thought I recall reading that your were running a building, the old folks home. That's where I got the engineer thing from I guess.
>>"We don't wish to be told how or when to do something or the proper equipment and training to accomplish it.">>Well that's just too bad because those safety regulations aren't optional.You're going to have to find a way to work with them or be driven out of business because the attitude of "if you don't like it then get another job" might have been alright 50 years ago but nowadays it doesn't fly.
What I meant by that statement is this Ian. I know what I need to do to run a safe job. PLEASE but out of my business. If you won't let ME have a shot at running OSHA, then you don't get one at running mine! I'll take care of it, Thank you very much. And it's not,"if you don't like it then leave, it's; if I don't like it than I will leave. If a place smells like shlt, do you need someone to tell you to move on?? You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of a person being responsible for his own actions rather that leaving that responsibility to another person or a governing agency. I think perhaps that is a cultural difference.
Ian, I don't disagree with you that we need to be safety consious. In a small residential setting we probably don't need and OSHA. Safety meetings are good, and a team effort on the part of the crew to prevent onjuries is even better yet.
Until you have lived and breathed the type of work being discussed here, I think you will be at a disadvantage to argue it.
Cheers,
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
You still can't seem to accept the fact that OSHA is a bit more powerful than you are, that the regulations are non-negotiable and that they have the ability to drive you out of business if you don't comply.
You can complain about it all you want but that's the reality and I, for one, wouldn't have it any other way.
IanDG
>>You still can't seem to accept the fact that OSHA is a bit more powerful than you are, that the regulations are non-negotiable and that they have the ability to drive you out of business if you don't comply.
Thats it in a nutshell.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
I'm gonna chime in here one more time because there's another aspect of safety/OSHA that hasn't been addressed directly and that's the reality of actual injuries....serious ones....even fatal ones.
Before I went in the Navy back in the mid-sixties, I worked on a logging crew here in the PNW, harvesting old growth timber on steep and tangled terrain with big iron with lots of horsepower.
My employer was one of the big players and, even then, knocked themselves to provide a safe work place.
Even so, in one summer, I helped pack out two dead guys....one was a 47 yr. old father of 7 kids who was smashed to pulp when a big doug fir fell directly on top of him. The other was a young buck like myself who died of dehydration in a hot canyon because he was afraid of not measuring up to the "macho" logger thing by asking for water, which was readily available.
In my years in the mills, injuries were not uncommon....mashed fingers, broken arms, cuts, burns, smoke inhalation, etc. and a couple of production accidents that are too involved and gruesome to relate here, though the victims survived.
The point I want to make is that in all the accidents that occurred on my watch, where I often had to perform first aid and/or personally transport to the local ER, and with the earlier mention fatals notwithstanding, the icy feeling in my blood and bones in every case was much worse than any dread I ever felt when an OSHA inspector popped in.
Since being self employed (12-14 years....can't remember), my employees and I have been accident free, other than an occasional mashed thumb, minor cut or bumps and bruises and I pray it stays that way.
Like Diesel Pig, I oversee as many of the hairy situations as I can, double-check any and all rigging, make sure the building site is kept uncluttered, etc.
Because I'm a hands-on operator, I can do this most of the time, but if we're to the point of doing something of higher risk, like setting ridgeboards 20' up like we'll be doing next week, I'm there and involved, or the guys work on other stuff 'till I'm back around.
I'm sure a lot of my awareness goes back to having to deal with accidents that happened to people who were just trying to make a living.
But I know also the hell an employer can go through emotionally and financially, big or small, when a dismembering injury or a fatality occurs and that's another pretty strong motivator for making safety a major priority, not to mention that of the injured party. (much, much worse than any PITA citations and fines to be argued over).
OSHA can be an annoyance, but it serves a useful purpose and, for those of us who do our best to keep our people healthy, it's not one of those annoyances that I worry much about.
>>Should a guy have to risk death to earn a living just because his employer can't afford to 'work safe'?
No, there is another job site down the street looking for help, or like dp said, Burger King needs help to. It's called walking.
While it wouldn't be right for an employer to force someone to work in unsafe conditions, this is where personal responsibility comes into play. I wouldn't risk my #### in an unsafe condition, noway. An employee has a brain and should use it. It is ultimately his responsibility to determine whether or not he will choose to willingly accept the risk or not.
Part of the issue here is the cost of safety, or should I say safety as defined by the governing agency. At what point does the small businessman decide that he can no longer stay in business because of the cost of all the rules and regulations, despite the fact that he works safe?? It's a tough call. It's not black and white. Balance is what is needed.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
No, there is another job site down the street looking for help, or like dp said, Burger King needs help to. It's called walking..
An attitude like that is a perfect example of why OSHA became necessary.
IanDG
They are making it possible for your workers to continue making a living.
Edited 9/17/2004 2:08 am ET by Hammer
FWIW, many OSHA region offices have put out a decree that they are not allowed to pass a dig project and not inspect it.
OSHA rules are there for worker safety. Granted, sometimes the rules do not make sense... but if you ask... your inspector or region office will be happy to explain.
Most (emphasis on most) inspectors are pretty reasonable since the last "reform". They are primarily interested in finding a good jobsite and moving on. HOWEVER, let one find a bad jobsite... and they will dig until they hit water. Let them find a bad jobsite with a super that shows no concern for safety... they will dig until they hit water, then flood the jobsite!
If your buddy got $5k in fines... he probably could have gotten $15k. This was a warning shot only. They will be back in a couple of days (week possible) to see if the necessary corrections have been done. If not... then the infractions become "known infractions"... and the fines are huge, and they may shut down the site.
Advice. Look upon an OSHA inspector as a resource. When they show up on a jobsite, welcome them and require them to put on ID, a hardhat, and eye protection (before they can inspect). They will provide thier own.
Then, accompany the inspector through the jobsite, paying close attention to what he points out. Give direction immediately (when possible) to correct infractions (do not fix them yourself... give direction to workers). React to the inspector as you would with a homeowner... listen... direction to correct... thank them for pointing things out... then sit down for a summary meeting.
Ask the inspector what it will take to pull anything found, into compliance. If there are any major infractions... shut down that portion of the job until it is brought into compliance. Any subs that are in non-compliance... be aware that YOU, as GC, are responsible for the safety of the jobsite. DO NOT try to lay off blame to the sub... that will get an inspector up-in-arms quicker than anything you can do (other than have a serious violation... especially if you show any inclination that it is "no big deal").
The inspector WILL be back if any violations are found. DO NOT let the inspector find the same violations as they found before.
If you think a violation is incorrect, you have a right to contest the fine. It is not uncommon for this to happen. Document, document, document... you will need it for any contested infraction.
Bottom line... safety is not just for when the inspector is expected (or probable). The small amount of money that it costs to do it "right" is small in comparison to the alternative... continual fines at the minimum... killing someone at the maximum. The costs are recuperated in worker efficiency, lower WC premiums, lower liability costs, etc. OSHA regs are, for the most part, reasonable. Comply with them!
Rich-
Those are all good points. During an OSHA class for my construction management degree earlier this year, we learned some other things else that are good ideas when OSHA comes to your site. While that class was geared toward commercial construction, it all applies to residential as well.
1. Sending everyone home or on break until the inspector leaves is an immediate tip to the inspector that something is up and guarantees a return visit. OSHA inspectors have been known to sit in their cars within sight of the worksite just to see if contractors are trying to purposely hide things from them.
2. Keep a camera and notebook on site for the sole purpose of documenting what the OSHA inspector documents. If he takes a picture, you take a picture. If he makes a note, you make a note.
3. Keep an up to date copy of the OSHA standard and all the various reports (for the company and a particular job) on site at all times. Inadequate records is a whole set of fines that add up just as fast as the other ones.
Hardhat? I don't think I've ever seen local house builders wearing hardhats. Baseball cap or nothing is typical.
jt8
The way they try to gain compliance is the shock treatment. There are not enough OSHA inspectors to do a decent job of education and prevention as well as accident investigation, so they get our attention by writing up expensive fines to cause pain and ripple effects.
I was in a safety class and they said, point blank, give me any reason at all to get out of my vehicle on your job and i will find something to write and the average fine is around ten grand. That gets people's attention - especially when coupled with the stories we have all heard.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What it does is cause us GC's to do is be babysitters, nagging and bitching to get the guys into compliance. My hardest thing is the hardhat issue...they are always laying somewhere. I yell, they go on for awhile, then off again. Try giving days off....yee-ha... a vacation..then a week...even better. You try to hurt them into compliance by their wallet...they take the time off and join another crew for a week.
Why doesn't OSHA take a trip to Alaska for the crab fishing season. Or head out to an oil rig for a bit trip, how about hang out with a fire department for a few days. Do soldiers in IRAQ have to deal with OSHA?
Some occupations are dangerous, some very. Is they money worth the risk? Sign the waiver and go to work. It's not the wild west, but the govt. is making it a joke.
I want mandatory drug testing, instant test.....lick the strip when you clock in. Baked or hung over and you stay away till you lick clean. To me , that's the lure of construction to most of the freaks.... no drug testing.
I'm not against safety....far from it...live long and prosper....but make EVERYONE responsible for their own actions and subsiquent reactions....
We see them all the time! Drop me an E-mail & I can send you a safety book that we use, & give to all the workers on my job site. It's a very basic book about 30 pages very ez to follow.
I have it in both english & spanish. Let me know. It's much better to spend your time keeping the job site safe, then dealing with injured workers!
We had WISHA (WA state Labor & Indstries) come out a couple of weeks ago. They were pretty nice to us. We had one guy come out as a consultation. It was a service they provide that IF this was an inspection, this is what they would notice.
I'll tell you the guy this time was real jerk to start off with, but by the end he was pretty nice. I asked him what the requirement on hearing protection was. We wear earplugs and I told him it's so all of us can hear our wive's sweet voices :-) He said, maybe you should stop wearing them and wear them at home. He softened up a little. I think they deal with a lot of crap.
On residential sites, we are not required to wear steel toe, hard hats unless there is someone working above us (he said for framers it's not really an issue). He was mostly concerned about weather we've modified our guns. They've gone over ladder saftey before with us and making sure our extension cords aren't nicked.
Guy that came out 2 years ago told us that they were going to outlaw 3 legged ladders. I'm sorry but I've used both and for framing, a 3 legged ladder is much more stable.
We didn't get any fines as far as I know, but we have our paperwork and do our saftey meetings and such, but the 2 framing jobs up the street were shut down. I think that was because they weren't paying their L&I. The saftey inspector had another guy with him who was there to check on whether companys were paying what they were required.
By the way, don't sweat some of the comments made in this thread. I agree with you and so do most I've talked to. Saftey is common sense, but some of the stuff they get uptight about is irritating ie, no shorts in the summer and no tank tops. I'm sorry I have NEVER heard of anyone having difficulty being safe and avoiding injury be cause of a tank top. But then again . . . .
think he had guys on the wall plates, too.
Fall protection starts at 6' IIRC. But there's an exemption for doing structural work (you have to have a point 6' than where you are working to attach the fall arresting rig to--rather difficult before there's anything "there").
Evvery so often OSHA will tour the larger subdivisions and stir things up a bit. The roofers are generally told to get harnesses and some sort of fall protection for anyone working on a 6/12 or steeper.
I'd like to see a bit more protective gear on residential sites, personally. Particularly eye and hearing protection. But that's a personal opinion and observation.
speaking of osha - can they give tickets to those of us without employees or those of who are owners - corporate officers...???
Nope,they can pull up and flip the badge, and you can say FU and flip them the finger. Walk a second floor plate, dragging a saw with the guard off, pulling it along with a frayed cord, with no GFI, in bare feet drinking a beer, and you are above the law. You may be dead soon, but at least he can't touch you.
well, I try to be safe - but there are times the safety measures are the problem that make accidents and there are the times I am stupid whether it's a law or not. it's nice to know for sure about the big fine thing - but I need to be careful to not let it influence my judgement and take a unneccesary chance...I have about ten years to go before retirement - except hands on contractors probably never retire...
Years ago I had to talk to a new widow - It sure puts safety regs that some consider a damn nuisance into perspective
A humorous side note here- I am a framing laborer and have been told jokingly: "If you fall you're fired before you hit the ground"
Seriously though. This is a dangerous profession and at an entry level position I make more than if I was learning another trade so for me the safety issue keeps me sharp and is worth it. Now the wear and tear on my body is another story....
The wear is part of life but we will try to help you prevent the tear part.
Gabe
Add me to the list of those that have read this entire thread. The thing that strikes me is that no one seems to have read the OSHA standards or if you have, didn't understand them. The government geeks that you think are controlling your individuality are you. OSHA has long recognized the issues with leading edge work and the difficulty with providing fall arrest protection in those circumstances. They have had an open forum on this subject and have asked for input from us, contractors and workers. Throughout the development of the safety standards, advisory committees of trades people have been involved as consultants and policy makers. Some Washington pencil pusher didn't come up with this stuff. The government stepped in in 95 when over three hundred workers died and thousands were injured during that year from falls. Hundreds die every year and thousands are injured resulting in lost work time. Just because what we do can be dangerous doesn't mean we have to risk injury or worse due to some egg headed boss that won't take the time to make an attempt at improving techniques and safeguarding workers. Your employees have the right to expect a safe work environment, and you have the obligation to provide it and the necessary training for your workers.
If you read the standards, you would know that there are options regarding fall protection. Nobody is exempt that has employees. In certain circumstances you can have a written fall protection plan that addresses some of the connecting work we have to do where harnesses or scaffolding don't make sense. You can't, however, just ignore the laws.. OSHA as well as your states Department of Labor have many outreach programs that are designed to help with forming laws and meeting compliance.
Instead of calling each other names and perpetuating old wives tales, why don't you go to the OSHA website and start reading. It's a little daunting at first, just like figuring rafters, but with a little work most will figure it out. We can cure ignorance but stupidity is forever.
Gentleman, I had some time so I read the entire thread. First of all let me say that I am not a GC or HO or a sub. What I am is just someone who during late teens and early twenties worked as a framer with my grandfather, working on residential homes. From him I gained a love of craftmanship. Which is why I read this forum. I only wish I could use some of the tricks of the trade that I have read here. I do not nor will I ever have even a tenth of the knowledge which most of you possess. (Yes, this makes me jealous.)
However, let me tell you what I am. I am an independant safety consultant. What I do is advise small businesses on safety issues, specifically OSHA. I would venture to guess that I may be the only one on this thread that has read CFR 1910 and CFR 1926 from cover to cover, about 700 pages each. Those are the Code of Federal Regulations that OSHA has all the rules in. 1910 covers general industry and 1926 covers construction. Not trying to impress anyone just want you to know that I have a small idea of what I am talking about.
That having been said I would like to clarify some misconceptions about OSHA. Let me begin by saying that construction is a target for OSHA, this is due to the high number of fatalities last year. If any of you work in the Dallas, Tx area you know that just within the past year OSHA sent an entire extra team of OSHA inspectors due to 5 fatalities in 5 weeks. They went out every day for weeks looking at every construction site that they ran across. Just so you know 2 of the deaths happened at residential construction sites.
OSHA is not out to put anyone out of business. However with some of the fines OSHA can levy against a business it is likely most small businessess would go under. Now while I can understand some may not like the idea of the goverment telling them the rules by which they must work by, it is the system that is in place. Therefore we must abide by them. It is not really something open to debate. I sure most of you will agree that common sense is the most uncommon quality. Just read some of the threads about HO's and how they want the impossible for free. And I am sure that everyone can name two or three GCs or subs that cut every corner they can. That is the reason for the standards. So what do you do when you disagree with a standard? Two choices, one follow it or two hope you don't get caught breaking it. In the latter case it can mean a huge fine.
Just a couple more things, if you are a GC you can be held liable for anything that your subs are or are not doing. This means a fine for you, in addition to making whatever changes you have to make. Another thing something not talked, about if there is a death OSHA can and has put employers in prison. Holding them liable for the employees death. This is not an idle threat it has happened on several occasions. So even if you disagree you are responsible for your employees. Another thing as far as babysitting, yes if you have to then you have to. This year a company lost a lawsuit by a woman whos husband refused to wear a harness. He fell and died. She sued saying the company under the premise they should have fired him. She won. I am not saying I agree I am just saying as far as lawsuits and OSHA are concerned it is your responsibility for employees safety not theirs. Another thing OSHA has never and will never fine an employee for and unsafe act, no matter how stupid it is, they are your responsibility.
So in conculsion gentlemen agree to disagree about OSHA. Just be assured that if OSHA comes calling they make the rules you don't get to argue. If you do it will cost you more.
Oh jeeezzzzzz I thought I was finished with this, but.........
Ok here's what I see happening if OSHA comes full bore into the residential arena (remember we're talking residential)
There are very large home builders in the US. A money maker will have cash in place to handle the over-large fines, this also applies to most commercial builders (I suppose cause I don't do commercial)
A large majority of residential builders are small time like I was...... A large fine puts them instantly in the red. The domino theory takes hold and the subs and suppliers take the brunt of the attack cause the GC's folded........and everybody suffers.
I'm no longer arguing for or against the issue cause I am pretty much out of the business, but in the future, I see carpenter/builders going, like the rest of mom and pop businesses, down the drain............to be replaced by very large, very well organized building companies.......owned by corporations instead of individuals.
I already know most of you guys think I'm full of ####, but this same thing is happening all across the board............think Wall Mart etc.
Is this a good thing? Who knows. It will be a different thing, that's for sure and like you guys want, the free rover will soon be on the reservation working for the man.
I fell through a floor one time and cracked a bunch of ribs. I didn't even think of suing the GC. (I was checking out a pretty girl as I backed into the stair well) I went home and sat in a chair for thirty days before I could move again. That was then.
Today I would have sued the GC. OSHA would have fined him for the lack of railing and he (a small timer) would be gone...............yeah, we were cowboys, but we took responsibility for ourselves and when we f'd up we weren't on the phone the next day crying to the man (or a lawyer.) The times are quickly changin and you guys are going to never really know the good ones...............but us old BSers remember............the freedom of flying by the seat of your pants.
What may protect the small builder is the same economy of scale that has worked for the UK market.
The big companies can't compete when it comes to urban infill -- the one-off built on a piece of someone's garden type of development -- their overheads are way too high for it to be profitable enough for them.
The other market which has stayed competitive for the little guy is the renovation, repair market and I can't see that changing.
I've said my piece -- and more -- about safety but the thing I really miss about the trade in the 50s and 60s are the great characters and eccentrics and the sense of fun that seemed more prevalent then -- or perhaps it's just a faulty memory!
IanDG
This question is specifically for Eddie...
Does posting signs such as "hard hat area", "Ladder safety rules", "steel toed shoes required", etc at the building site in any way help to protect the GC from OSHA fines, or reduce the fines levied in cases where it is the subcontractors who are not following proper safety precautions?
Thanks,Matt
Matt, this question is very open ended as far as OSHA is concerned. (It is the goverment.) The short answer is this if you post those signs and you have people working in the area not following the signs the fine could go to willful. The reason is that OSHA could see that as you knowing the rule but not enforcing it, thereby saying you were willful in breaking it. It is the same as a parent telling a child not to do something and the child doing it. The reason why the child did it is not as important as the fact the child knew they should not do it, thereby willfully breaking the rule. However, I think it would be unlikely that an inspector would do that. Remember, inspectors are people. Make their job hard and they will return the favor. Act like you are trying and listen to them and they will do the same.
Here are a couple of links from OSHA that may clarify OSHA's thinking on the matter. The first is a committee letter to clarify the position on multi-employer worksites. The second is the actual change in the field manual for OSHA inspectors. It is dry reading to be sure, but I think the second will help because it gives examples of who and when to cite various individuals at a worksite.
http://www.osha.gov/doc/accsh/accshwkgrpdoc/multiemployercitwkgrp.html
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=2024
Hope this helps.
Your post is well thought out, and I agree with a lot of what you've said. It's unfortunate that most small operations don't have the time (read: Money!, of course...) to participate in OSHA hearings on a regular basis, because a lot of good alternate methods or standards probably never came to light as a result.
The one thing I disagree with that you said is that 'employees have a right to expect a safe work environment'.
In that homebuilding is inherently unsafe--and in that no amount of training or safety equipment can make it 100% safe!-- I think that it would be better (and safer!) stated as follows: 'Employees have a right to be completely informed about the general and specific risks they will personally incur should they accept your offer of employment. They also have the right to ask for any safety equipment within reason if they feel the need, and such equipment should be provided by the employer at no cost to the employee. And they have the right to refuse to do any particular task at any time if they think it is too dangerous for them to accomplish under the conditions prevailing at that time.'
I believe that fooling ourselves into believing we can prevent all injuries by following any (or even all) specific sets of safety regulations is a dangerous way to think...and if by extension we let the employees think we're going to make it safe for them by armour-plating and hog-tying them, we are doing those employees a serious disservice. A man has the right to know what he's getting himself into when he shakes my hand and says, 'When do I start?' I make damn sure he does know...and I won't hire him until I am sure he understands the risks. To me, this is the best way I can discharge my responsibility to the people who work with me.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?