I have a neighbor building a house and did some pickup framing of fireplaces and ceilings for him this week. Toward the end of the week he asked me to look at some walls that his level read as out of plumb. Lo and behold, there is an area where several of the interior walls, and one exterior wall, are 11/16″ out of plumb in 78″. It’s as significant as anything I would expect in an 80-year-old house with foundation problems, but it just went up in the past few weeks.
I spend some time today breaking things loose and plumbing them up, but the roof is on and I can’t plumb the exterior wall without some really major effort. I fixed the areas where the problem would be easily “read” against the door casings and so on.
Is this normal for production work?
Replies
> Is this normal for production work?
Depends on who's doing the producin'
David, I want to say the standard is 1/4" in 8'...someone correct me if I'm wrong. We try to get our framing within that tolerance, but sometimes consistency is more important than accuracy. Almost 3/4" out in less than 7' sounds bad though.
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Sounds like pretty poor work and dang inconvenient to rock or trim behind, but it wouldn't be in the falling down catagory
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Being that you referenced the walls as being out in 78'' tells me you probably have a Stabila 78''. I would suggest being careful plumbing with a level right on the stud, although I too use this level to check my walls, when I re-plumb I always check plate to plate.
I used to layout interior walls with a plumb bob, until I got my pls 5 and more than once carpenters came behind and told me my lines were out and the readjusted for me. Only to tell them to go back and put the walls on the original ceiling line. With the state of lumber today a level on the stud will not give you a true read, so it could be the studs bowed. That is why it is so important to crown and cull.
Now as far as the 11/16 out I think that would be unacceptable. And is probably more than a bowed stud, and should be repaired by the framer.
As far as 1/4'' in 8'' as an industry standard, from plate to plate I hope not but its probably close to accurate. Personally I think a wall should be within an 1/8'' over 8' consistently. That is to me: lines right with a little room for human error. If exterior walls are plumbed and lined properly they can get to this also. I would say using a good straight edge with your level plate to plate the bubble should look perfect to the layman's eye. That could be easily 1/8'' or a little more in 8'.
A rule of thumb I use: accuracy in the layout plus the natural human error in the install will yield good clean work. Sloppy layout with the same work can yield unacceptable work. This is why layout should be done carefully because what you're off in the layout will be compounded by the mechanics.
"As far as 1/4'' in 8'' as an industry standard, from plate to plate I hope not but its probably close to accurate. Personally I think a wall should be within an 1/8'' over 8' consistently."
I would say 1/4" in 8 is acceptable with spf wood framing, but 1/8" is right on for steel or engineered lumber.
Couldn't agree more. Layout should be dead on. The biggest problem with air nailers is most guys won't stop to toenail plates even with their hammer. 1/8 here and 1/8 there and things easily compound to 1/2". "A case of 5 seconds instead of 2 minutes". Many levels I have seen could show 11/16 out as plumb. I have seen guys turn their level until they got the reading they wanted. A new thinking that I have not tried is alternating crown in studs, they will cancel each other out and yield a straighter wall. The theory may work. I have a PLS 5 also but I still aint buying no calculator.
I have a PLS 5 also but I still aint buying no calculator.
Where did that come from? Who said anything about a calculator?
If you get a Construction Master you can throw away your level and use the height of the wall to the bottom of the top plate as the Rise and use the same measurement as the run and press Diag and there's your Hypotenuse.
Now you can precut all your braces..............just playing with you.....;-)
Joe Carola
You know where that came from. I admit I have a simple calculator. I can convert fractions to decimal in my head so I don't need a construction calculator. Where I come from a 92 5/8 precut and 3 1 1/2" plates equal 97 1/8.
Where I come from a 92 5/8 precut and 3 1 1/2" plates equal 97 1/8.
Uhhhh.... I'm thinking you may need that calculator more than you think you do.
What did you come up with?
"Where I come from a 92 5/8 precut and 3 1 1/2" plates equal 97 1/8."Brian,What he means is (3)1-1/2" 2x4's meaning bottom plate and two top plates measureing 4-1/2". What I'm trying to tell him is, yes, on on paper or using a calculator 92-5/8" + 4-1/2" = 97-1/8" but in the field with a 1/16" here and a 1/16" there it never measures 97-1/8", it measures 97-1/4" for me anyway.Joe Carola
Yeah, I misread.
The thing I like most about having a calculator onsite isn't that it does things that I couldn't do in my head, it's that it eliminates the human part of the equation. The bone-headed itty bitty mistake you make when working through a field of numbers that throws the whole thing off. Then you spend 1/2 hours searching through your longhand to figure out where you made the error.
I'll admit it's pretty much a necessity now for me to have a calculator... it's just so much faster and more accurate once you are proficient with it. Houses today with their multiple plate heights, multiple roof pitches, vary stock sizes etc demand you pay attention to your roof cutting. The calculator doesn't do the work for you, but at least it reduces your chances of error.
The thing I like most about having a calculator onsite isn't that it does things that I couldn't do in my head, it's that it eliminates the human part of the equation. The bone-headed itty bitty mistake you make when working through a field of numbers that throws the whole thing off. Then you spend 1/2 hours searching through your longhand to figure out where you made the error.
I'll admit it's pretty much a necessity now for me to have a calculator... it's just so much faster and more accurate once you are proficient with it. Houses today with their multiple plate heights, multiple roof pitches, vary stock sizes etc demand you pay attention to your roof cutting. The calculator doesn't do the work for you, but at least it reduces your chances of error.
Amen brother. Adding to that in our area are the insane amount of earthquake "stuff" we have to do. I'll take some pics this week and post them of the hardware in this house we are on. It is insane, but kind of fun. If there is an earthquake, I'm heading for this house :-)
Now don't get mad. Please don't get mad. When all the weight is on on things have settled, you can't have it both ways, are you telling me the calculator is wrong. The 1/16 here and there is why I direct measure for rafters. I would enjoy working with some one that cares and I am not a guy that has to do it my way.
Now don't get mad. Please don't get mad. When all the weight is on on things have settled, you can't have it both ways, are you telling me the calculator is wrong. The 1/16 here and there is why I direct measure for rafters. I would enjoy working with some one that cares and I am not a guy that has to do it my way.
I'm not going to get made but where talking an 1/8" here and I'm telling you I've measure the height many times and it measures 97-1/4". So we're done with that I hope.
As far as you direct measuring for rafters. I'm not following that. How do you figure your rafters?
Joe Carola
Joe,
I always tell the new guys, don't cipher based on what the dimensions SHOULD be, do the math based on what things actually ARE. We never use 97 1/8" in our figuring, because it is never dead on.
???
92 5/8 + 3 1 1/2 = 97 1/8
3 2x4's = 3 x 1 1/2 = 4 1/2
92 5/8 + 4 1/2 = 97 1/8
right ?
it's all in how you read it
going metric would have solved these problems
carpenter in transition
Wow, this thread exploded overnight.
Just to set a few records straight... I own approximately ten levels, 2 plumb bobs (gathering dust), and a PLS5. I am dimly aware of the fact that if you place a level against a stick of wood with a wicked crown you will get a funky reading. Maybe I can use this fact to explain a new 8' Stabila to my wife.
Also, I've never been anywhere where two 2x4 plates stacked up to 3". I always figure two of them at 3-1/8 minus and three at 4-5/8". I mean... c'mon... is it any different anywhere else? Maybe some 'o youse guys are using those FJ studs and they are actually thinner.
Anyway, the man's walls are really outta plumb in some places. I fixed some and not others. Worst part for me is that I priced out the trimwork based on the plans, before he asked me to punch out the framing. Now maybe I'm going to have to be too busy to do it or something like that.
Edited 7/3/2005 4:05 pm ET by davidmeiland
I must need a calculator to cuz i think he 's right.
Did you read the rest of the thread or just that post. I explained myself... twice.
Where I come from a 92 5/8 precut and 3 1 1/2" plates equal 97 1/8.
True on my calculator, but in the field like I said on the other forum if you measure from the top of the subfloor to the top plate I've always measured 8'1-1/4".
I admit I have a simple calculator. I can convert fractions to decimal in my head so I don't need a construction calculator.
Yeh, I'll bet your that good that you can figure out the length of a rafter in your head faster than a calculator.
No one is telling you to buy a calculator or change your ways because you sound like an old dog that you can't teach new tricks. It just amazes me how some old timers (not saying you)have something to say about calculators and they will also say " buy the time I put that formula together I'll have the rafters cut".
The key to this is, yes it takes some time to come up whith a formula or the fastest formula but when you have it, it takes all but a few seconds to come up with a answer.
How fast can you tell me the length of a Irregular/Bastard Hip with a 10/12 pitch on one side and a 8/12 pitch on the other side or the run of a hip on an Octagon in your head?
I'm not tyrying to be a smart A$$, but your the one who brought up the calculator again and said that your calculator is in your head.
There's mystery in learning how to use a calculator. If you don't like them that's fine but don't keep knocking them.
Joe Carola
I was having fun now you are getting mad. Lighten up.
I read,
92 5/8" studs plus 3 1/2" plates....
you wrote, 92 5/8" studs plus 3 (comma) 1 1/2" plates.
Thought for a minute that you added up the three plates and came up with 3 1/2" as a typo.
My bad. As you were. ;)
(I'm backing out of the room now)
Come back and enjoy the ride.
I'm still here.... just watching though.
I love these "New School" vs "Old School" type dialougues. See, my old boss was way old school, and I'm new school..... made for a good time. It was always good natured.... but always serious too. When I say new school, I just mean using newer and better tools with less reliance on the human element to accomplish pretty much the same end result the old timers got.... with a little more sweat and head scratching IMHO.
It's all good. Carry on.
When I retire maybe I will come and work with each of you.
I'm still curious how you figure your rafter length.Joe Carola
I don't have much call for it anymore. I set the ridge. Measure from ridge to wall.
I don't have much call for it anymore. I set the ridge. Measure from ridge to wall.
What do you do to figure the height of your ridge, let's say for a 5/12 pitch with a 14' run and 2x10 ridge with a 2x8 rafter?
Joe Carola
Edited 7/3/2005 11:33 am ET by Framer
20' 7 5/8"- 3/4" half thickness ridge, Length of common rafter. 5" rise x 14'run = height of ridge. 70" From measuring line of 2x8. ridge doesn't factor except for width 1 1/2 ".
22 1/2 degrees. edit 20' 7 5/8" valley 15' 2" common
Edited 7/3/2005 12:27 pm ET by doodabug
20' 7 5/8"- 3/4" half thickness ridge, Length of common rafter. 5" rise x 14'run = height of ridge. 70" From measuring line of 2x8. ridge doesn't factor except for width 1 1/2 ".
22 1/2 degrees.
5/12 pitch with a 14' run and a 2x10 ridge and 2x8 rafter.
Rafter length -3/4" (Half Ridge Thicknes) = 15'1-3/16"
Rise is with a 13'11-1/4" (run) x 5 = 69-11/16"
H.A.P cut (Height Above Plate) @ Birdsmouth is with 2x8 rafter = 6-11/16"
Rise 69-11/16 + 6-11/16 (H.A.P) = 76-3/8" (Ridge Height)
22.62° for a 5/12 Pitch
Joe Carola
See my edit 15'2" - 3/4" Ridge 70" close
Ridge 70" close
Close?
Your 6-3/8" off in the height. You said you set the ridge first and then measure from the ridge to the plate. That means you would be wrong.
Joe Carola
I said 70" from the measuring line of the rafter. That is at the birdsmouth, vertically up from that is 6 5/16" if the rafter is 7 1/4".
I came up with 15' 1 1/4'', 76 5/16", 22 1/2 degrees
Most every body who knows me now accuses me of being hi-tech. When I was younger I was told I should have been born a hundred years earlier, because I loved old school methods so much. I think today to be the best we can be, we have to be students of the old school but apply new school technology to those old school ways. For example old school: set jamb with plumb bob and straight edge. New school set jamb with laser and straight edge. Old school: use dividers to layout stair stringer. New school: use calc. to figure hypotenuse and layout. The old school ways of layout aren't very much slower and sweatier if any slower and sweatier at all.
I was having fun now you are getting mad. Lighten up
I'm not getting mad at all. I'm also having fun. In fact my 6 year wants me to teach him how to play chess right now so that we can play all day. The thing is I've never played chess once in my life and I doubt that I'm going to read the instructions and figure it out buY the time I get done drinking my coffee
Joe Carola
Calm down. He makes good points, all the way around. Edit - Sorry I see it was you accusing him of getting mad, and he's says he's not mad. Hey its the holiday, let's ll have a beer.
Edited 7/3/2005 10:45 am ET by quicksilver
You calculator guys are way to sensitive. I already admited I have one. Seems we all care about doing quality work.
Yeah, the guy who built our house had a level like that. You cam actually predict how much out of plumb something will be.
Don't forget to stand back and wind the studs.
I'm going to say this real carefully, as a friend. You should get a calculator. How do you calculate Pythagoran Theorem. If you aren't using that formula, It's old school, about as old school as you can get. I'm not saying a carpenters calc. Just a decent one with square root. You can also do perimeter of a circle, area of a circle, lots of cool stuff without selling out. Just a thought.
I use one quite a bit.
I can't remember all those formulas.
What the is a pythagoran theory.
Edited 7/3/2005 9:55 am ET by doodabug
Put them on a card in your wallet. The calc. free's up space in my noggen for other things like a couple of formulas. Just a thought.
See edit previous post.
A squared + B squared + C squared or in our languagerise ^2 + run^2 + hypotenuse^2Simply take the rise squared and add it to the run squared and take the square root of the number. This is the hypotenuse.so on on 7-1/2 / 10 stairs the hypotenuse is 12-1/2Also can come in handy for rafter workOr if you find a wall out of square and you want to check it off a control line and can't get a good control line to check off of because of other plates in the way you can throw a square (150'' X 32'' for example) down a narrow hallway of any rise and run combo and since we know the hypotenuse with simple arcs we can plot a perfect square. This allows us to plot the largest square possible in a confined space, where as 3, 4, 5 has limits this theory doesn't. Although I use 3, 4, 5 almost all of the time, I think its good to know this principle. That's only if the batteries on the PLS are dead but I hope this helps.I saw a guy a couple of weeks ago post that he doesn't use 3,4 5 anymore. I wonder what he's using. You probably know this theory under another name. Pythagoran came upon it in ancient Greece.
I saw a guy a couple of weeks ago post that he doesn't use 3,4 5 anymore. I wonder what he's using.
I never use it anymore either because it's a waste of time and not as accurate as using a Construction Master. I take any given length and width and use it as rise and run and then press "Diag" for the Hypotenuse.
It's a lot faster and easier when squaring up a foundation or laying out footings for a deck or squaring up the deck joists.
3-4-5 or 6-8-10 or 9-12-15 I used to use but they don't get you the whole distance it gets you partially there and then you have to extend your lines.
If you want to check the diagonals a a rectangular building 3-4-5 wont help you but the CM calc will get you exactly what you need from one end to the next.
Joe Carola
I layout for eleven guys, and use 3,4,5 in almost every application. I want all of my people to be able to make a square line to a chalk line on the floor quickly and accurately. If they don't know how when they start (you'd be surprised how many don't) I show them and tell them to practice it on the clock at least once a day until they can do it as second nature. I don't want to see framing squares and strings ever ( you'd be surprised how many think that is an acceptable way of laying out, also). Any two of my guys can work accurately and quickly together using a tape as a measure/trammel to create a large square on a blank deck.As you can see by my previous post I can use the same method as you quoted on your const. master. The need for this rarely comes into play in my work for squaring. Although I use it where necessary,The reason I like a regular calc. compared to a const. calc. is I think but I'm not positive, so I could be wrong having no experience with them. Is that I'm assuming the const calc. rounds down right of the bat. Can you get it to display in decimal or does it always display fraction? I want the long decimal because I want to round down myself after I do my calculations. For example when laying out a stair stringer I want to use the hypotenuse transferred to a line 1/2'' in from the edge of the stringer board. I want to calculate the hypotenuse and multiply it by 1 then 2 then 3 etc, until I get the total number of rise/run combos, and use the marks to guide my framing square. This method eliminates the climb that one will get when simply stepping off with a framing square. If the const. calc. rounds down before I make all my calculations the accuracy of this approach will be compromised, making it no better than stepping off with a framing square.So as far as layout goes I feel probably like you that there are different applications for different situations
The reason I like a regular calc. compared to a const. calc. is I think but I'm not positive, so I could be wrong having no experience with them. Is that I'm assuming the const calc. rounds down right of the bat. Can you get it to display in decimal or does it always display fraction? I want the long decimal because I want to round down myself after I do my calculations. For example when laying out a stair stringer I want to use the hypotenuse transferred to a line 1/2'' in from the edge of the stringer board. I want to calculate the hypotenuse and multiply it by 1 then 2 then 3 etc, until I get the total number of rise/run combos, and use the marks to guide my framing square. This method eliminates the climb that one will get when simply stepping off with a framing square. If the const. calc. rounds down before I make all my calculations the accuracy of this approach will be compromised, making it no better than stepping off with a framing square.
What's great about the CM is that when you store the number you have calculated, the calculator keeps track of the rounding. So for instance if you need 23 equal spaces for a handrail and you calculate 3 15/16" and store that number, you get zero accumulative errror.
You can have it read in decimal. So for your stringer example, you can have the calculator read either decimal or fraction and it will keep track of the rounding. You will be more accurate dealing with fractions with a construction master than using a scientific calculator and decimals.
You sound like a smart guy, the learning curve for a CM would be really steep for you. I bet in an hour you'd be using it and wondering why you didn't before.
By the way, I've thought about laying out stringers the way you describe. Do you find it to be a lot better than just using a square? I think I'll try that next time.
I tell you about the guy who taught me stairs because he applies to the reply and the answer to your stringer question. I was 29 years old and a told me a fringe friend of ours was a stair builder. I met him a couple of times and one time at a party I said to him if you're ever going to hire someone I'd like a chance. I guess it sat with him right because a couple of month's later he called me. I went from being a foreman to a helper. The first day he says I'm going to show you how to lay out a staircase and I almost said. DON'T WORRY. I ALREADY KNOW HOW. I didn't say it thank God, and by the time he was done I was thanking him. Using the hypotenuse allows accuracy at all stages and allows things to be cut common, right down to the rake balusters, and hand rail cuts. It is sure fire, and by using it if somehow you held 11 instead of 10 one time on your run your whole stringer won't be ruined, because it treats each rise/run as a separate entity. Your rail set on the stairs will touch each nose. I find it to work for me. Same guy is the one who gave me the evidently bad info about the const master. You don't know how many people I've had secret prejudices because of that. Sort of the way wormdrive man feels about sidewinder man and vice versa. Anyway thanks for clearing that up.
The CM is really a good tool. I bought the Trig Plus III and I'm glad I did. It made me sit down and learn how to use the trig functions. I'm not good at trig, but the few formulas I know (copped from Joe Carola and Joe Fusco) are really easy on the CM because you can do trig and still work in ft/in. I think you would really like it.
Thanks for giving me the final push to layout stringers the way you described :-) Even in a rather pointless discussion such as where this thread went, I still learned something. It always pays to be somewhat "respectful" on these boards. Now if I can hit you up for advice on stairs :-)
The reason I like a regular calc. compared to a const. calc. is I think but I'm not positive, so I could be wrong having no experience with them. Is that I'm assuming the const calc. rounds down right of the bat. Can you get it to display in decimal or does it always display fraction? I want the long decimal because I want to round down myself after I do my calculations. For example when laying out a stair stringer I want to use the hypotenuse transferred to a line 1/2'' in from the edge of the stringer board. I want to calculate the hypotenuse and multiply it by 1 then 2 then 3 etc, until I get the total number of rise/run combos, and use the marks to guide my framing square. This method eliminates the climb that one will get when simply stepping off with a framing square. If the const. calc. rounds down before I make all my calculations the accuracy of this approach will be compromised, making it no better than stepping off with a framing square.
This is how I would do it on my Construction Master with a 7" rise and 10" run for example. If there's a faster way I will keep trying to figure it out
7 [Inch] [Rise]
10 [Inch] [Run]
[Diag] Returns - 12-13/64"
[Inch] Returns - 12.20656"
[+] [=] Returns - 24.41311"
[=] Returns - 36.61967"
[=] Returns - 48.82622"
[=] Returns - 61.03278"
[=] Returns - 73.23933"
[=] Returns - 85.44589"
It all boils down to what your comfortable with doing and if your willing to try something new that gets you to where you want to be faster but with accuracy and quality.
I respect all the old timers ways of doing things and would never say anything to knock them until they knock the new ways, then I have something to say. When someone says throw away the Construction Master Calcs. That makes no sence at all to me when they can arrive at an answer quickly and accurately with one.
For Irregular/Bastard Hip roofs with the CMP you can get the hip length and angles in about 8 seconds. Also Octagons or any other Polygon roof, the things you can do with CMP is great for that.
Yes, It takes time to figure out formulas but once they're figured out it takes seconds to get your answer. So figuring them out at home is where to do it and then bring it to the job.
I'm all for learning more and more every day and after 20 yeras of framing I still have a lot more to learn, that's why I always ask how people figure things out their way because if there's one thing from it I can add to what I know I will do so and then pass it on to everyone here if anyone wants to know.
Edit, no need to press [Stor]
Edited 7/3/2005 11:17 pm ET by Framer
Well as I said before I never messed with a const. master calc. and today I think I got some pretty solid information about them. With that I'll think I'll pick one up. Thanks I actually directed a thread to you earier today. It had to do with your humorous recomendation to doodabug to plumb a wall with math. The thread is called 'carpentry ap's for a laser measuring tool'. I don't know if you'll have any input but your post sparked a memory. But I somehow capitalized the letters in your handle and someone else was notified. Thanks
I remember this from about 20 years ago:
My framing foreman at the time had gotten one of them new-fangled construction calculators, and was fixin' to lay out the roof frame with it.
We took the physical measurements together (wall height, spans, etc.) and he then punched it into his calculator. He entered the figures as feet/inches, punched a few more buttons, and waw la , out comes the ridge height and the rafter lenght.
So I check it the way I did it, with a scientific calc and figuring in inches and fractions converted to decimals.
There was a difference of almost two inches in the rafter length! We went round and round for a while, rechecking and repunching, and I finally asked him to figure it in inches, instead of feet/inches, and waw la again, now the answers match.
I suppose by now thay have that fixed?
Math is math. Accuracy is everything.The heck, you say?
Heck,
It's all fixed.
Joe Carola
Durn, I'm always late for the party. <g>The heck, you say?
I am just teasing you guys when I tell you to throw the calculator away. It sure gets a rise. I have only done two roofs in last three years, one room additions, I-joist rafters. I am doing remodeling . Fixing rot, moving some walls, adding some headers, simple stuff, a little boring but simple. I was using a builders level by myself so I bought the laser. I'm not against change when I need it. Next time I say throw the calculator away realize I have a smile on my face, I will say it again I'm sure. I hope you agree carpentry is high school math not rocket science. I like framing squares, I like the feel of it in my hand, I don't have to give it up for speed. If I make less money because of it I don't care, I can be as precise and slow as I want to be.
I am just teasing you guys when I tell you to throw the calculator away. It sure gets a rise.
That's alright. You'll be surprised to see sometimes how some guys are not teasing and are serious. Like I said before I respect everyone in this buisness and the way they do things no matter what way and I'll never knock it unless someone knocks the way I do things.
I used to work with my friend and his father who I remember his father installing a door in my mothers house when I was a kid after my father died. I remember how fascinated I was watching him doing that and I probably asked him a million questions.
Once I started working with him he taught me a lot about framing and a lot of other things but he was so stubborn you couldn't try to show him anything new. We used to say he was a stubborn as a mule.
I was doing an addition on a house and we also had to frame a 45° walk out bay so we cut the box out and luckily the floor joists were running the same direction. We just had to bump out 2', so I was watching him struggle to get the measurement on the angled box measuring over 2' and 2' out to the end of the box when I just said to him it's 33-15/16" just to bust him instead of 34" and he just looked at me and said ,"don't bother me kid" as he was growling.
I said to him that the box on a 2' bump out is always 34" no matter what way you look at it and he still didn't get it until I said that we all no that the diagonal on 12" right angle is 16.97" or 17", it's right on the framing square. So I said just multiply it x 2 and you'll have 34" or if it was 3' than it would be 50-15/16" or 51".
Where he really wanted to kill me is when I showed him my calculator how I showed him that 24 x the square root of 2 = 33-15/16" or 24" rise and 24" run pressing diagonal = 33-15/16".
He hated the calculator and would never use it so I respected that and I would always bust him like laying my calculator on top of his coffee when he wasn't looking and taking his Camel Cigarettes and putting my calculator in it's place but I would have to grab the calc before he smashed it.
It's all good.
Joe Carola
Edited 7/4/2005 9:30 am ET by Framer
Wuts a caculator?
Why use a level, its just another tool to loose,
View Image
"Do not guess if you can calculate, and do not calculate if you can measure."
-attributed to Archimedes
The old dude had it right a very long time ago. Archimedes is about as "old school" as you can get.
A few measurements plus a few calculations is a powerful combination. For one thing, it helps you know which of your various measuring tools is "lying" to you!
Calcs done wrong are worse than useless. And measurements done wrong are doubly bad as they get an artificial sense of legitimacy because they feel "real" whereas the calcs are just numbers on a calculator's screen or scribbled numbers on a page.
Striving for accuracy or precision beyond the requirements of the job, or beyond the possibilities offered by the materials you're working with or the tools you're using, is pretty pointless, as Frenchy's story so eloquently points out. That's not an excuse for sloppiness, just a reality check. Frame carpentry isn't cabinetmaking or joinery, and joinery isn't tool and die making. Not that any of these is better than the other- each has tolerances and precision determined by the materials and methods used, the distances covered etc.
As one guy here says in his tagline, "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe"!
You sound like a intelligent man. Where you been?
I knew that formula. I didn't remember the name. Been 40 years since high school math.
Quadratic equation.
Pythagoras was his name. Pythagoran was for things named after him, like this geometric formula
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Right on.
I thought of a good tag line the other day but couldn't remember the quote exactly. I'll have to dig up the book. Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Paraphrased:Socrates said: To be is to do
Kant said: To do is to be
Sinatra said Do be do be doI'm not sure if I have the philosophers correct. Ah well I am sure of the last one.
Length squared + width squared and the do the square root thing (I think) for diagonal
Edited 7/3/2005 11:24 am ET by Vince
just remember the fair indian maiden... SOHCAHTOA... shen will always come thru for you..
Sine = Opposite / Hypotenuse
Cosine = Adjacent / Hypotenuse
Tangent = Opposite / AdjacentMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, can you elaborate on that a little. Now with my external memory (palm pilot). I would be interested in putting trig into action. I would have before but I could never remember the formula's when I needed them. The mnemonic is a welcome note.
well, the 3 basic trig solutions for triangles are always
SOHCAHTOA..
eg: Sine of the included angle = the length of the opposite side / length of the Hypotenuse
and if you know any two of the 3 , you can always solve for the missing 3d item..
also... solving for missing items.. remember the "Z" method
1/x = 6/12
to solve for "x" follow the Z.... x = 12 x 1 / 6..
if you set it up as traditional fractions it is ALWAYS solved by following the Z, wether the z is upside down or notMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike That went right in the bag. I will begin to apply it ASAP.
Quicksilver:Check out the Pocket Ref:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1885071000/102-4582514-8345703?v=glanceIt has just about any formula you'll need, bunches of other references that are handy as heck to have. I'm like you, can't recall all those formulas. Mine was about nine bucks at one of our local bookstores ages ago. One of the best investments I've made. Between Pocket Ref and an inexpensive TI calculator I can come up with the right numbers for just about anything.Last time I used it was to figure out the length of a stool leg for a given height and angle. Worked great.Leon Jester
Thanks Leon. I added the page ot my favorites. Leon Russell, Leon Spinks, and now you I haven't known many Leon's
Man, I go to work for a few hours, and find out I missed all the fun.
Some Old Hen - Caught Another Hen - Throwing Oats Away
Sine = Opposite / Hypotenuse
Cosine = Adjacent / Hypotenuse
Tangent = Opposite / Adjacent
easier for me to remember
Learned math long before there was such a thing as a calculator - I used to do square roots in my head for fun.
But I like the one about willing Violet better.
The squaw on the hippopotamus.
Edited 7/3/2005 2:46 pm ET by DanH
I have seen crews not checking crown where the studs were going back and forth and they exagerated the differance .
I spent 2 weeks going through every wall and planing the crown out areas.
I was furious with the framer for this until I found out the builder had given him the preliminary plans to bid on and when he got the complete plans he knew he was f***** so he told his crew don"t waste time.
I got on the builders case about holding him to the bid and he said that was his problem so while doing this I aligned myself with another builder.
The funny thing this was the builders dads house about 1.2 mill. job and his dad was a stickler and he told me do what ever it takes to straighten it.
I hate having to fix other peoples mistakes even if it makes me money.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Did they alternate each one or throw them in random? I have always crowned them, but I think I will try alternating them once unless you are saying that it won't work.
I would highly reccommend not doing it, the wall will look like it has a wave running thru it and the trim will be even worse.
I always crown out to the exterior wall and I try to crown out to the least noticable wall on interior walls.
One of the biggest problems with studs is they're going to bow about 40% of the time after you install them especially if it rains before you are in the dry.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
ANDYSZ2: forgive the stupid question of a rank amateur, but isn't another reason to "crown out" an exterior wall to make it easier to build on a level platform? i.e. crown up rather than crown down or alternating? Easier if all the studs are flush with the plate at the top and bottom when you're nailing off, isn't it?
A good point that I had almost forgotten in the routine of things.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I've been crowning out exterior walls just recently, and just did it that way because it was easier to do! Looks like my instincts are OK- thank goodness, because I've got no training! Too bad these skills are pretty much single-use for me...
David,
11/16 out of plumb is a HACK job. Anyone who says it's alright is a bigger HACK.
Hijack...........Who said "Better than plumb" ?
Mike Smith, was dat you?
Back on thread, sounds like a multiple 12 pack job.
Joe H
no...i never say "better than plumb"..
my favorite is "FINI"... which is an acronym
3 carpenters with 3 levels can never agree on plumb..
which is why i like my laser... and my plumb bob before that..
our tolerance for stud walls is 1/8..... and about the only way you can measure that is from shoe to plate...
that being said... i've actually built things and lived in them that were more than an inch out... and i've installed 8' high doors in walls that were 2" out.....
and then there is always the leaning tower of Pizza... still standingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I used a plumb bob to set a wall one day. A young carpenter checked it with his level and told me my plumb bob was wrong. True story.
How do you get the wind to quit blowing long enough to use a plumb bob?
I have three of different weights but haven't touched a one since I got my laser
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was indoors in 1992.
If you are measuring to the string, and not using the point of the bob, try submerging the bob in a coffee can full of water.
Is this normal for production work?
Sadly, this kind of crap is becoming more and more common, if what I see when doing remods on recent construction is any indication.
I agree with other posters who strive for 1/8" in 8', plate to plate. A quarter isn't great, but I can live with it most times. Over that and I have to take some remedial action and will inform the HO.
Worst I ever saw was 2" out of plumb over 7' on one side of a doorway and dead on on the other side. Then the rest of that wall twisted like a potato chip till it hit the foundation wall two inches off layout 13 feet away. That one I couldn't fix, either; the base plate was sunk 3" deep in the concrete floor slab, and the top plate was right under the joint between two sets of half-length I-joists, holding up the entire friggin' house....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Let me borrow your sledgehammer and I'll hang the doors.
I would like to thank you for starting a fun thread.
davidmeiland..
I'm as annal as most and maybe a little more.. I carefully built my timberframe when I took a level to some others and found how far out of plumb and true they were..
I spent many hours making sure everything went in straight plumb and level. I carefully dried all the wood for years before I used it and found out that dried oak took me as much as ten hours per timber to square back up and put the tenions/ mortices, and other joints etc. into hard white oak. Had I planned the timbers straight from the sawmill I could have had each timber done in an hour or less.. plus I wouldn't have worn out so many planner blades..
Now 4 years after All those straight plumb and level timbers went in you'd swear that I was drunk or never used a level.. One wall bowed in a full inch and 3/8ths the second year it was up , (it's slowly returning closer to straight being only about 3/4 of an inch bowed now)
Wood you buy from a lumberyard is either KD 19 or SD19 (either case means it's supposed to be around 19% moisture content. since a tree in August may test at less than 19% it means that the wood you built with is pretty green..
please don't be surprised if it bows and bends and warps a lot more between now and the second or third heating season..
All,
I’m latter than Heck to the party. =) Great party and good reading too.
My standard for plumb corners is within ¼” for 8 to 9 ft. walls. I typically plumb my frames by the window openings w/ a 4’ level to read perfect. I quickly verify that all exterior corners and interior patrician walls are reading within my ¼” tolerance standard alike. Using a four ft. level like this will usually yield many near equal readings and when everything is overall good I “Make it stay”. I do it this way because most windows are sheetrock finished openings on today’s homes (my region) and require tighter perfection tolerances and I catch the crooked or misplaced wall problems at the same time. (I punch for plumb as I plumb.) This method does take a little more time (than the way I was taught), at that time, but I save much more time down the line. I cannot remember the last time I got a “Out of Plumb” punch item since I started doing this at least 25 years ago. Nadda! New employees with experience do however meet it with raised eyebrows as I expect some of you all here will too. But it makes sense and eliminates the problems that David Meiland described in the original post.