What do you consider good and why, for materials and techniques to be used in an outdoor (no roof over) deck, built in a northern climate (snowy winters and great summers.)?
I did searches for this here, and there is a lot of material, but things change, so I though I would ask.
For the structure beneath the deck boards themselves, it seems as if there is no real choice other than pressure treated SYP. But what subtleties are needed to be known, to really get things right? Are some PT woods better than others?
We all know about the special fasteners and peel-and-stick protection stuff that should be done, but what are some of the best materials and best practices here?
Ledgers. Yeah, flash the wall, stand them off with spacers, yadda yadda, yadda. But what else is there to know?
As for the decking itself, what goes here? Synthetics? Composites? Hidden fasteners? Cedar? Ipe? Cocobolo? What do you think?
Replies
I was recently called in to consult on some issues with a $750K home. Unrelated, but it had a nice size deck off the rear, made of one of the composite deck materials. I found myself thinking "too bad they didn't go with ipe -- would've fit the home a lot better."
After using ipe, I love the stuff. Although it does weather (e.g., turns grey), it seems to hold up well in this climate. And it looks a lot classier than plastic lumber.
That said, I guess it's a personal taste issue. I suppose there are some who would think vinyl siding would've looked fine on that house as well.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
I think a good practice is to place bituminous membrane (ice and water type material) on the top of the joists or even 15 lb. felt. to keep water off a bit. It's not going to make the framing "permanent" but I think for the minor cost in time and materials it will help get a few more years out of the structure.
The same holds true about isolating the metal hangers from the pressure treated lumber to help keep down corrosion.
Careful detailing of the flashing for the ledger. I'm not a big fan of those washers which hold the ledger away from the siding. I am a big fan of building the deck to be freestanding if possible
All decks just seem to look shabby over time. And the lumber industry has determined that the average deck gets torn out after less than 10 years. Given the choice, I will always take a patio over a deck. They fit into the landscape better and age well.
Last deck we did, we used "Timbersil". Pricey stuff but "chemical free" and impregnated with silica so it's also flame retardant. This one will be stained but it weathers nicely and is available in many dimensional sizes as well as decking so everything matches. Wierd smell when cut though, almost like caramel, from the heat treating process I imagine.PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Lindal Cedar Homes has a new product called "RoastWood" that looks very promising. It is basically "petrified" wood, cooked to an almost completely inert substance.I have been waiting for my sample and product literature as I am a dealer/distributor of Lindal homes and plan on using the Roastwood on my new home.They advertise the Roastwood in some of the newer print ads but I haven't seen it referenced elsewhere. Might be worth a look.Craig
"as I am a dealer/distributor of Lindal homes"
I had begun to think of Lindal homes as being a bit dated, but judging by the drawings of their new Turkel designs they have reinvented themselves in a very interesting way.
I have never built a true Lindal home, but did a similar design based on stick framing with gluelam beams for a friend some years back. I hated building the "prow" walls for the living room - so did my friend as I manages to drop one wall onto him when we were standing it and he still notices his knee when it is damp out.
Lindal is listed in Time magazines top 100 new building technologies as a result of the Turkel partnership. Neat homes and a pretty affordable package too. They are aiming at a new demographic with those designs and a recent deal with Dwell magazineThey have been updating most of the plans and have some pretty good new designs. I like the "Craftsman" style home and don't really like the iconic "Prow" that they have sold thousands of - to each his own I guess.Still waiting on the Roastwood details, need to make another call. I think that might be the ultimate "green" decking product that is actually ecologically sound and lives up to the hype.
less than ten yearsI find that interesting! I do know of decks getting torn out, and admit that I am ion a different demographic and geographic area than most so my experience on this item is limited.but I would speculate that some of the shortlived ones are torn out early simply because they are so poorly built, and probably poorly maintained.Others because of a change of ownership, with new owners having different lifestyles, or different goals for use of the home.I see decks here that are the same after a hundred years, with only minor repairs and resurfacing. Others that get added to, and some that become enclosed as rooms. Of all the decks I built here over the past twenty years, all are still there except one, and the reason it was removed is that it surrounded a pool, and the owner decided to rip it out because of fear for his children's safety - he was a playboy when it was built.
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You are right. "Torn out" in the statistic was from all causes, not necessarily structural failure. It includes weathering, redecorating, etc. The statistic was done to determine life cycle and the affect on landfills, so the reason was not pertinent to the reason the study was made.
As for proper maintenance, that's one of the things I like about patios. They can be fine without any maintenance or the barest care at all.
True, if built right, with good base and drainage.
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"I see decks here that are the same after a hundred years, with only minor repairs and resurfacing. Others that get added to, and some that become enclosed as rooms."
I think you are on to something there. The decks are easily enclosed because traditionally they were usually covered. Verandahs and porches have been part of our architectural vocabulary of centuries, but wood decks as we build them now - without roofs and usually without adequate relationship to either the surrounding landscape or the house they are attached to - are a quite recent idea, and I think on the whole a bad one.
no, I was talking about decks, not porches. A porch has a roof over it, while a deck is open
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I may just be having a failure of memory, but what century old houses had decks? Were they commonly put on the houses built around you in the early 1900s?
Yes, let's see if I can find a photo or two...These places were built for view of the ocean and a nice sea breeze.These are from several different homes all built around 1896-1908, grabbed quick without me reviewing all details since I was just looking at thumbnails, but mostly showing original decks - some combined with porch and or balcony areas raised over. I have others where the redesign/rebuild was so extensive that it bears no semblance to the original.I am aware of the history on many of these from taking with the retired carps who worked last on them, and from seeing how many series of nails had penetrated tops of joists in re-decking the frame.Back then the 30# paper over top of joist was common, and often, what I removed even had the old pitch paper instead of tarpaper!
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C'mon, Paul. You are showing places that have full-time caretakers to maintain those decks.
Let's see some middle class housing from 100 years ago with original decks, not places akin to the Newport "cottages."
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Piffin himself has been maintaining those decks for the last 90 years.
What I was showing was evidence that houses did indeed have decks attached a hundred years ago. Somebody didn't know that was true.yah know a deck doesn't need much other than shoveling the snow off it and oiling the surface every year or two.
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Ah, old age! I still think of 100 years ago as being the mid-nineteenth century. The thought that an antique could be from the 1960s seems very wrong.
I think it may have been the FHB contest that has catalyzed my anti-deck feelings. Many of them seem to feature much too fussy craftsmanship while bearing little relationship to the house they serve.
The pictures you posted are of a very different animal all together: most having a covered portion and acting as an extended entry to the house as opposed to the raised rectangular deck accessible only by a patio door with no relationship to the surrounding landscape which are so commonly tacked onto houses today.
Yes, they are all integrated designs. I took note as I was rifling thru all my photo files and memories that same combination of entry cover and extended deck
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For the structure beneath the deck boards themselves, it seems as if there is no real choice other than pressure treated SYP.
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It only seems that way.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=120551.1
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Black locust maybe? I'm trying to find out if I can use BL poles for structural deck support, but all I get is quizzical looks from the inspectors. I still would like to use it for the decking, but finding dimensional Black Locust lumber isn't easy.
Z
Googling "black locust decking" will get you info on obtaining deck boards of black locust. Dimensional lumber is gonna be real hard to come by, as most black locusts don't grow large enough to yield 2x wood before succumbing to rot.
You might also check into Siberian Larch. It's similar to tamarack - advertised as a "hard" softwood and quite rot-resistant.
Jason
For my own house (the last one I get to work on) I built a small deck 3 feet off the ground last fall. I BUilt it on a slab, not attached to the house. 2X4 walls, 2 feet high with housewrap and siding to match the brick. I joists at 16 inches, 2 layers of 5/8 t&g ply, perp to each other, glued and screwed. A layer of ditra, then 12 X 12 full body porcelin tile I found on clear out. The rim board is protected from the weather by white fascia, the 6 inch over hang has aluminum soffit.
Under neath I now have a spot for my 10 foot break and my wifes flower pots and a bunch of other stuff. After one winter it looks good but every body does a "tile ?" when I tell them about the deck. If the building inspector asks, it is just a shed with a low roof. If a structure is less than 10 square metres (108 square feet)we don't require a permit . Two weeks ago a dam bear knocked my new barbaque of the deck onto the ground after he ripped the new $70 cover. I think I may bolt the grill down as who knows when I'll have time to install a railing. When I do it will be the powder coated aluminum.
Have a good day
Cliffy
You saw Mike Guertin's blog about new structural requirements, right?
k
No. Do I need to pay to see it?
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Nope, it's in the free sectionhttp://finehomebuilding.taunton.com/item/7839/2009-deck-code-changes-pay-attention'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I don't think so, but you can also look up the new deck codes in the 2009 IRC, or Mr. Guertin says most of the info is in the 2007 supplement to the 2006 IRC, pp. 34-36, online at the ICC website.
k
Gene, the choices are vast as you mentioned. I chose PT 2x10's on 16" centers for my small deck (16'x18') supported on the house side with a PT stringer and galvanized hangers, I used the original PT 2x10 and hangers as they were in good shape. I used 6x10 on sonatubes about 12' out and supported the overhang on concrete pylons with adjustable brackets with a 4x8x16. I cross braced it every 36" out with 2x10's cut and SCREWED in place between the joists.
I used Trex decking and hidden fasteners that were plastic elliptical that covered the joist between the boards and used a stainless screw to hold in place and set the gap. I was a PITA to construct by my self but luckily it was low to the ground 34" on the high side tapering to about 8" on the low side. Each elliptical had be cut in with my PC biscuit cutter and the Trex was not real straight and had to be forced into place with my expanding clamps.
I used Titian supports (steel brackets that drive into the end of the 4x4)for the posts and backed up the brackets below the trex between the joists to give a solid mount. works very well.
Jim