I could use a little advice about an outdoor fence project I’m thinking about. It will a fence about 4 feet high similiar to this http://www.fencecenter.com/store/item.aspx?DepartmentId=14643&ItemId=60019 . It’s only for a little seperation between my yard and my neighbor’s, so it’s not a real heavy duty application.
I’m trying to figure the best way to join the vertical sticks to the horizontal cross piece. I have both a mortising machine and Kreg jig, but know nothing about outdoor joinery.
Was thinking of mortise and tenon for joining the horizontal rail to the posts. However, the prospect of cutting 100+ mortises and tenons for the vertical pieces doesn’t sound like much fun, especially if I use treated lumber.
Pocket holes would certainly be quicker, but would they be strong enough for outdoor? I’m also thinking the pocket holes will need plugs to keep the water out. The fence will be painted white and sealed, so maybe plugs with a contrasting color like walnut?
Will probably construct everything out of treated, but I could do white oak oak too as it’s not a huge project.
I’d certainly appreciate feedback or thoughts on this.
Thanks!
Edited 4/13/2009 10:28 am ET by Corrib
Edited 4/13/2009 10:28 am ET by Corrib
Replies
When doing this sort of thing for outside work, I make up the top and bottom rails from two separate pieces that sandwich the spindles. If you want, you can fill the space between the spindles on the bottom rail with spacers. Top too, but you really don't see that, so it's not as necessary.
For joining the rail to the post, I just tack a spacer block onto the post that fits between the rails. Then run a trim screw through the rails and toenail (toescrew?) the cap as well. The cap holds it at the proper height.
I glue with outdoor glue (TitebondIII) and use something like white oak. Fasten with SS nails.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
A similar method for the vertical spindles would be to plow (dado) a trough in the rails the same width as the spindles and fill the spaces--bottom definitely, and top preferably. I also have had very good results with Titebond (or Elmer's) outdoor glue.
I did a similar project about 15 years ago where I needed to join rails to posts. Some of them I did with mortise and tenon, but others I did with double biscuits. Those done with biscuits are still as tight as when new, but the others have opened up a little, and I have had to pin the tenons in place with hot-dipped galvanized nails.
I've also found that, for a really strong biscuit joint, it's best to not only coat the slot with glue, but also to give the biscuit a light coat as well.
"plow (dado) a trough in the rails the same width as the spindles and fill the spaces"
This works fine for the top, but I think it makes a place for moisture to accumulate on the bottom, underneath the spindles. And standing moisture = rot. That's why I like the open approach. If any water gets in the joints, it can drip out the bottom.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Good point. Simpler to build, too.
Edited 4/13/2009 11:31 am ET by rdesigns
That's the way I do it. I dado above and assemble one side of a 2 piece rail at the bottom.
Use stainless brad nails at the top of the 'spindles' into the rail. Leave the bottom open so stuff can find a way out.
The bottom is a sandwich held together with trim screws.
All stainless.
mortise and tennon. 1st chioce.
probably 2nd and 3rd choice too.
100 mortises are not too bad. one single 1/2" mortise will work
100 tennons on a table saw is easy,
maybe an hour or two each setup
"mortise and tennon. 1st chioce."
For indoor work, I whole-heartedly agree. But for outdoor use, a mortise is simply a well that will fill with, and hold, water and cause rot if, no WHEN, the joints open up a bit.
That's why traditional porch rail isn't made with M&T joints, but rather by crowning the bottom rail and cutting a reverse in the bottoms of the spindles and toenailing -- natural drainage.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
What material do you intend to use?
The choice of materials greatly influences the choice of joinery.....
If PT lumber, I'd probably use stainless nails, maybe stainless screws.
If steel -- weld it.
If PVC -- just buy the panels pre-made. It's generally not worth the hassle to save very little money compared to build-it-yourself.
If aluminum -- probably self tappers i pilot holes.
If you'll be using a rot resistant hardwood ($$$), then, as others have said, plow out a dado, and pin the ballusters in place with stainless finish nails.
Thanks for all the good info on this.
Mike, I really appreciate the post and technique. This will definitely save lots of time.
I'd originally thought white oak for the slats and horizontals, but now I'm thinking treated. Any problem with this?
Will use the equal post space formula. But, does it make sense to set the posts first or build complete panels?
Thanks!
Edited 4/13/2009 9:58 pm ET by Corrib
Edited 4/13/2009 10:00 pm ET by Corrib
Unless you're *really* good, build the panels up first and install them/set the posts as you go. Treated will work fine. (Or you can mix & match treated posts with WO painted fencing. I hate making anything like spindles out of treated since it never stays straight after you assemble them.) Not sure if TBIII will stick to ACQ tho'. You may wanna check with the mfgr or use something like PL Premium instead with ACQ. Or design so you don't need glue at all. But if you do use ACQ, don't even think of using any fastener other than stainless steel.
Despite what the DIY shows tell you, don't set the posts in concrete, which can cause the posts to rot prematurely. Crushed gravel will be fine if they're sunk deep enough.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA