Replies

1. 
   BillHartmann | Feb 17, 2007 08:53am | #1

   "My basement does not have an egress window so is not considered "living space"."

   Some local code differ, but in general you don't need to have an egress window (or door) for it to be habital or "living space".

   The egress window is only needed for sleeping rooms.

   The NEC requires GFCI in an unfinished basement.

   "(5) Unfinished basements ù for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are
   defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and
   limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like"

   And the NEC Handbook has this comment.

   "An unfinished portion of a basement is limited to storage areas, work areas, and the
   like. The receptacles in the work area of the basement shown in Exhibit 210.12 must
   have GFCI protection. Section 210.8(A)(5) does not apply to finished areas in
   basements, such as sleeping rooms or family rooms, and GFCI protection of
   receptacles in those areas is not required. In addition, freezer and laundry receptacles
   do not require GFCI protection, in accordance with 210.8(A)(5), Exception No. 2.
   Exception No. 3 was added for the 2002 Code to permit the omission of GFCI
   protection for outlets that serve burglar and fire alarm systems, thus adding a degree of
   reliability to those important systems."

   And Exhibit 210.12 shows a basement with finished bedrooms with the normal compliment of receptacles (every 12 ft, etc).

   In the unfinished portion only shows a coule of GFCI's plus non-GFCI's for a freezer and laundry area.

   Unfilished basement only needs one receptacle.

   The definition of finished is not specified.

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   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
1. 
   1toolman | Feb 17, 2007 07:43pm | #2

   Thanks Bill.

   So no requirement for height?

   Also a general question.  I am going to have some build in bookshelves.  How does the code differe from having an outlet every 12' and having a wall of bookshelves that don't allow for an outlet.  Do you just have to change your design to allow for one?  I can put a 1' space at the bottom where I can wire an outlet in....that's where the question of height comes in. 

   Regards

   TimYou buy a cheap tool twice and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!

1. 
   1toolman | Feb 17, 2007 08:07pm | #3

   One more question.  I think I asked this a few years back but I can't remember.  Can you run a sub panel off of a sub panel, or do you have to wire it into the main.

   I really overwired the house and used up all my spaces.  The main is in the garage and the house is fed with a sub panel.  My panel is not rated for tandem breakers so I have 2 choices.  Add a sub off the sub or add a sub off the main.  If I go the main route, I have to pull 4 new wires throught the 100' of underground conduit to the garage (yuk!).

   Thanks

   TimYou buy a cheap tool twice and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!

2. 
   BillHartmann | Feb 18, 2007 02:49am | #4

   I don't have time to look up the wording, but you only have to install receptacles in "usable" wall space. And builtin would not be usable wall space.Not height requirement other than it has to be below a certain height to count. Again I don't remember the under, but it is somelike 6 ft or maybe even higher.And, AFAIK, there is no limitation of running a sup off of a sub. Just more connections/breakers to cause potential problems.You might want to look at replacing the existing sub with a bigger one.Also you need to check the loads to see if the feeder from the main can support all of those loads..
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

1. 
   1toolman | Feb 20, 2007 05:56am | #5

   Bill,

   The sub is run off the biggest breaker I could get in a QO panel (125A).  I ran 2 #00 insulated cables, a #00 insulated neutral and a #4 bare ground approx 90'.  One thing I know is that I have a lot lower resistance in my house wiring than the electric company has in the overhead lines.  When my AC kicks on the lights in the garage dim.  This tells me the drop is between my garage and the transformer and not in the feed from the garage to the house.  I am at the end of line so I get the table scraps for electricity or in this case voltage. 

   The problem is I'm an engineer and over design everything - no wonder everybody hates engineers!!  I ran so many circuits that are only partially loaded that I ran out of spaces.  I want to have a few spare circuits so I am looking for a small 8 space panel located a little closer to the area where the circuits will be used.  Heat is gas, cook top is gas, dryer is gas, ovens are electric and AC is of course electric.  I did all the calculations for loading and 125A for the house is more than enough.

   The garage has it's own panel for all my toys ....errr ahhh I mean power tools. 

   What I do remember is you have to be careful with sub-panels as they require 4 wires.  2 Insulated hots, 1 insulated neutral and a bare ground.  As long as I get them correct in the sub, I didn't see why it would be an issue, so I appreciate your sanity check. 

   Thanks again for your help.

   TimYou buy a cheap tool twice and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!

2. 
   FrankDuVal | Feb 20, 2007 08:28am | #6

   Around here if you have a wall of bookshelves, you still need a receptacle every 12 feet in a finished room. Typically you just leave a hole in the back of the shelf that can access the existing receptacle. Or you could be fancy and put the receptacle in the baseboard area of the shelf.Just like if you have a fixed wall of glass instead of opening glass doors. You still need receptacles in front of the fixed glass.The function of the fixed glass and the bookshelves is a wall.Now if the bookshelves are in an unfinished room, then no receptacle is needed.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

1. 
   1toolman | Feb 20, 2007 03:36pm | #7

   Frank,

   So you would need a floor outlet in front of a wall of glass?

   This is interesting.  I see glass walls in some of the corporate style offices, but I can't ever remember seeing a floor outlet.  Is this only for residential?

   TimYou buy a cheap tool twice and then you're still stuck with a cheap tool!

2. 
   FrankDuVal | Feb 20, 2007 04:21pm | #8

   So you would need a floor outlet in front of a wall of glass?Yes!This is interesting. I see glass walls in some of the corporate style offices, but I can't ever remember seeing a floor outlet. Is this only for residential?Yes!2005 NEC 210.52(A)(1) to (3).Some room excluded by 210.52 (A)(1) would be bathrooms, laundry rooms and utility rooms. And hallways are covered in another article.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

3. 
   BillHartmann | Feb 20, 2007 06:58pm | #9

   Here is the discussion on that in the NEC Handbook.This is not code."A wall space is a wall unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, archways,
   and similar openings and may include two or more walls of a room (around corners),
   as illustrated in Exhibit 210.24.
   Fixed room dividers, such as bar-type counters and railings, are to be included in the 6-
   ft measurement. Fixed panels in exterior walls are counted as regular wall space, and a
   floor-type receptacle close to the wall can be used to meet the required spacing.
   Isolated, individual wall spaces 2 ft or more in width are often used for small pieces of
   furniture on which a lamp or an appliance may be placed, and to preclude the use of an
   extension cord to supply equipment in such an isolated space, a receptacle outlet is
   required.
   The word usable does not appear at all in 210.52 as a condition for determining
   compliance with the receptacle-spacing requirements. As an example, to correctly
   determine the dimension of the wall line in a room, the wall space behind the swing of
   a door is included in the measurement. This does not mean that the receptacle outlet
   has to be located in that space, only that the space has been included in the wall-line
   measurement."I think that this is one of those questions that go on for 5 pages in the code forums and around and around in circles.A "finished basement" would be another..
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   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

4. 
   FrankDuVal | Feb 21, 2007 06:46am | #10

   Bill, are you with me or against me? I have the same handbook to go along with the NEC and it seems real black and white to me. Just like you quote in your reply. Only openings in walls do not count in receptacle spacing along walls. A bookcase is not an opening! A fireplace is. So if it opens and you can walk or crawl through it, it is not a wall. If not, it is a wall and counts as a wall even if the door swings in front of it, or a bookshelf is built onto it.I think we agree, we just state it differently!Finished basement just applies to GFCI requirements. Receptacle spacing is determined by room use. Again, black and white, at least in the inspectors eyes: 210.52 (A):"In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling unit..."Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

5. 
   JoeArchitect | Feb 21, 2007 04:43pm | #11

   Receptacles spacing in building codes indicate maximum distance between room wall receptacles as well as minimum wall lengths that require a wall receptacle to be located in. What I also take into account is laying out receptacles for a flexible furniture layout. More receptacles are better than "just enough per code".