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Oval ceilings

james77 | Posted in Construction Techniques on April 9, 2008 02:45am

I need help….my wife and her sister went on a house tour of very old and very expensive mansions. When my wife got home she announced to the neighborhood that I was going to put in an oval ceiling in our dinning room like the one she saw in one of the houses. It was a recessed oval centered around a chandelier…..I being able to turn a screwdriver with some difficulty …..said ” yes i am” …..I awoke at 3am sweating in my PJ’s….with the thought that I have no idea how to even start….can some one give me an hand in finding some direction..or where to start looking….I checked several indexes of wood working magazines with no luck…some one had published an article maybe ten years ago on this type of ceiling.. but I’ve had no luck in the search…jim

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Replies

  1. User avater
    JeffBuck | Apr 09, 2008 03:04am | #1

    sounds easy enough ...

    just open the checkbook.

     

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

    1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 03:54pm | #13

      said the man who is in construction and looks to be not of much help. thank you very much.

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Apr 10, 2008 06:23am | #41

        you might not like my advice but it's probably the advice that'll save you the most money in the end.

        Jeff    Buck Construction

         Artistry In Carpentry

             Pittsburgh Pa

        1. Biff_Loman | Apr 10, 2008 02:41pm | #42

          Again, I'll second. Having recently completed a barrel vault, I'd probably still be waking up in the middle of the night over an oval ceiling. ;-) Well, not quite, but it would be intimidating.

        2. james77 | Apr 10, 2008 03:07pm | #43

          Your probably right....Ok, I know your right....but pride being what it is, can get it the way of reason every time..besides, if you don't try something, how will you know you can or can not accomplish it....your in business...how many times did you get out on the limb? Thanks for you help...you didn't even have to respond but you did and I appreciate that..Jim

  2. Biff_Loman | Apr 09, 2008 04:04am | #2

    Uh yeah, I have to agree with Jeff.

    Edited for added emphasis: agree with Jeff 'bigtime.'



    Edited 4/8/2008 9:05 pm ET by Biff_Loman

  3. Jim_Allen | Apr 09, 2008 04:08am | #3

    Piece o cake!

    Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

    1. MattSwanger | Apr 09, 2008 04:44am | #4

      He talkin about a chandalier dome Blue?Woods favorite carpenter

       

      1. Jim_Allen | Apr 09, 2008 06:32am | #9

        Probably. Those are very easy to install.Or, he could be talking about a real one. We just finished a design package for a client that has a real one with a mural hand painted in it. It's awe inspiring as is the rest of the "showcase" house. The real ones are not a "piece o cake". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

  4. User avater
    hammer1 | Apr 09, 2008 04:50am | #5

    You can purchase all kinds of ceiling domes. You may have to frame an opening, similar to framing a chimney hole, to account for the depth. It's more of a problem as a retrofit if there is a floor above, not too bad if it's just ceiling joists. You may not have to double up the carrying joists like you would on a floor. Try to use a location that only requires cutting one joist and heading it off.

    http://www.wishihadthat.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=800&Page=1

    Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

    1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 04:07pm | #14

      The type i am looking for is built off the existing ceiling and built-up to the center. The oval is framed with either drywall or particle board attached to a 1X2 or or 2x4s. I am not sure. I also have no idea how to form the frame or how to attach the 1x2s to make the oval. One other problem is how do you draw an oval the is eaqualaterial . The oval is approxmitley 60"x42" in a room that is 13'x 15' ???

      1. BryanSayer | Apr 09, 2008 04:29pm | #19

        Ones in old mansions are probably done with real plaster, so you don't need any drywall skills. And wire mesh will make it easier than doing it with wood lathe. But how are you at troweling?

        1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 05:37pm | #22

          not as good as I once was, but as good once as I always was....I'll try anything..and keep going until I can get some good results.....thanks

          1. User avater
            Joe | Apr 09, 2008 06:12pm | #25

            James,Maybe Bean will stop by and give you some good advice. He's done some really great ceilings in the past.http://www.josephfusco.org

          2. john7g | Apr 09, 2008 07:21pm | #26

            Is she wanting a dome or an oval shaped tray ceiling?  Whats the ceiling height?

      2. User avater
        hammer1 | Apr 10, 2008 04:19am | #40

        To draw your oval, you can use a string method. An oval has a major axis, that's the long side and a minor axis. You take the measurement of half the major axis and measure from the top of the minor axis, that length, until it intersects the major axis. Do this on both sides and place a nail at each point. Tie a string so it forms a triangle from the nails to the top of the minor axis. Place a pencil in the string and pull it around. Use a string that doesn't have stretch.In a long room, you can get a similar look by using half circles on each end and connecting them with a straight run. Not as classy as an oval but not bad and a bit easier.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

        1. james77 | Apr 13, 2008 03:56am | #44

          I have seen the string method befor but it been a while, but this is what i was looking for. the last picture of the oval ceiling is what I was l00king for, not quite that elaborate but built up just like that one .....thanks for the help, I will use your method....jim

  5. User avater
    popawheelie | Apr 09, 2008 05:16am | #6

    An oval ceiling is pretty hard to do. I don't know you but I'm not sure if you are up to it.

    That's why they are in big old mansions.

    1. Piffin | Apr 09, 2008 06:22am | #7

      The tricky part is making sure that it lines up with the oval whirlpool tub in the room above. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 04:13pm | #16

        only if i can put a hydrolic lift to move the whirlpool back up when dinner is done....

    2. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 04:11pm | #15

      I've done a little up and down drywall but nothing as structured as this.....this ofcourse is to please the wife who likes nice things but I can't put out the money...you know how that goes..

      1. User avater
        popawheelie | Apr 09, 2008 04:47pm | #20

        I didn't mean to be condescending. It is a difficult task. For me, one of the hardest things about it is that it's on the ceiling. Anything above your head can be a pain.

        The fiberglass parts sure would make it easier.

        If I was doing one I'd like to do it on a high ceiling. Do you have a high ceiling? It just makes sense since it is a formal type of interior design. Most homes don't have the room.

        Edited 4/9/2008 11:07 am ET by popawheelie

        1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 05:28pm | #21

          no apologies necessary....I thought of this because of woodworking magazine article published some years ago. not having a good memory as I once did I lost the issue and was trying to reconstruct the article in my wooden head. The oval was built up only a 1 1/2" to 2" from the existing ceiling with 1x2 on edge coming to the outline of oval, than they curved the 3/8" drywall and attached it to the upright edges of the 1x2s. to form the oval. the rest is very fuzzy.  there may have been a 1' step down from that done with moldings. I thought the article was In finehomebuilding but can not find it in the index so I thought i'd take the short cut..and ask the pro's

          1. User avater
            popawheelie | Apr 09, 2008 05:51pm | #23

            I you're going to make it out of wood I'd built it on a table first and then install it on the ceiling. Bending wood will be a challenge but it is completely feasible.

            In your original post you wrote,"It was a recessed oval centered around a chandelier". Building up (or down) some molding isn't a recessed oval.

            Part of the whole concept for the recessed oval ceiling is a look of grandeur. I think high ceilings are a setting that makes the detail look like it belongs there.

            Also, it helps to have other elements in the room that are of similar stature. Like 7'-0" doors. Or windows with a curve on the top. We're looking for a theme here.

            I'm thinking that if it isn't done right it will look like molding stuck on the ceiling. Or if it is done well and the rest of the room doesn't have any other features that are in the ballpark it will look out of place.

             

            Edited 4/9/2008 11:04 am ET by popawheelie

          2. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 07:26pm | #27

            ok, You have make me thinking...I think it started with 2x4 framing on all the walls to within 6" , than steped down to 1" to the oval. from the 2x4s to the step down it was covered with drywall....I am not talking a 3 or 4 foot recess. maybe the whole thing was a bad dream.....thanks Popawheelie....I'll keep looking for the Article...it looked good at the time.....Jim

          3. User avater
            Joe | Apr 09, 2008 09:14pm | #28

            James,So which is it?
            http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Ceiling%20Vaults/The%20Ceiling%20Vault.htmlhttp://www.josephfusco.org

          4. james77 | Apr 10, 2008 03:25am | #36

            Joe you have been very kind, thank you...the room is 14x16 and has 10' ceilings, the house is 80years old. I wanted to go off the existing ceiling because of the limited height......that's why the shallow recess...I have seen it, and just what to try it.

          5. User avater
            Joe | Apr 09, 2008 09:23pm | #29

            James,Maybe it was more like this.http://www.josephfusco.org

            Edited 4/9/2008 2:24 pm ET by Joe

          6. james77 | Apr 10, 2008 03:16am | #35

            getting close Joe......Joe I found a article in a workbench mag. dated back to June, 1997 where it talked about a Coffered Ceiling...and I was wondering if I could adapt that method to a oval? I keep going back to the oval because our  dinning room table is oval and I thought I could emulate the pattern on the ceiling.

  6. Piffin | Apr 09, 2008 06:25am | #8

    If you can barely turn a screwdriver, this is one project that is over your head

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      Jeff_Clarke | Apr 09, 2008 06:36am | #10

      Yes I would agree with Piffin on that.   There is a good company in Utah that makes custom GFRG (glass fiber reinforced gypsum) domes - I had two made for our great room (they are circular, about 22" in outside diameter) and I sent them a piece of our casing to cast into the edge - this made them easy to install (face screw, liquid nails and patch holes).

      Company - http://rwm-inc.com/  - They are really good people.   Oval domes - http://rwm-inc.com/domes/index.htm#od-recessed

      In your case, the issue is how to create a 'void' in the center by modifying the ceiling framing - this isn't usually DIY work.

      Jeff

      eta - rwm must have liked them - I just noticed that they are featuring the custom domes that they made for me on their website for $199 apiece, which is a deal - see photo below

      Edited 4/8/2008 11:45 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke

      1. User avater
        Jeff_Clarke | Apr 09, 2008 06:44am | #11

        Here is the photo

    2. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 04:20pm | #17

      I overly simpilified my skills. To be a little more discriptive, I would describe my skills a more of a hand-man type..I have never participated in a group that are obviously highly skilled professionals. The reception I got was not to be confused with the help i was looking for...but at least you have displayed some concern and I appreciate it ....thank you.

      1. Piffin | Apr 10, 2008 12:59am | #31

        really - the info you get here depends a lot on what you provide. Since we don't know you from Adam, and since you described yourself as pretty much unskilled - albeit with a touch of humour - the safe advcie was to say to hire it oput.Also, with absolutely no idea what sort of house and room it is going into and how that ceiling is framed, there is no way of telling you how to proceeed. Is this ceiling framed with trusses, or is there a floor above or..... 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      2. mmarrie | Apr 10, 2008 03:49am | #38

        I suppose if you have the time you could it this way. But you must have a very low tolerance for error. If I understand you the oval is higher on the ceiling, with the remainder of the ceiling a 2 x 4 measurement lower? My partner and I have always said "good framing makes cake of trim". I did an eliptical in my theatre room (14 x 7) with a recess for a rope light that washes the higher ceiling. Thats a little more difficult, nothing is straight and everything is a radius. The bigger the oval is the easier it will be to trim.Draw the oval on a large piece of thick cardboard, cut it out precisely.
        Locate the existing floor joists above. Snap lines on the ceiling locating the center of the joists using red chalk, it won't come off. Locate and tack the template to the ceiling. Frame to the template, perpendicular to the existing joists. Be exact with your cuts. Wrap the face of the 2 x 4 with 2 layers of 1/4" plywood ripped to 3 3/8".If it fits the house style, use plastic 3/4" radius edge bead. It softens that hard edge. You can trim the inside edge a number of ways, plastic trim, plaster, azek. I used azek (plastic 1 x )and had to use a heat gun to get into the smallest radius.I suggest you use a lamp to finish the drywall punchout.Hope this helps,Mike

        1. james77 | Apr 13, 2008 04:08am | #45

           did you attach the 2x4s with screws or nailed to the joist? I was thinking of using lauan on the face of  the 2x4s is that ok or is the plastic better? could I use 3/8 drywall cut in the back to accommodate the curves?

  7. JoeBartok | Apr 09, 2008 03:19pm | #12

    See if this helps, start reading at Algebraic solutions of Framing Problems ... Post #32

    Graphing and Lofting Ovoids and Ellipsoids ... the points were plotted using the WZ Function Grapher linked to at the top of the page. The Ellipsoid and Ovoid Calculators will return the formula to paste in the grapher.

    Joe Bartok
    1. james77 | Apr 09, 2008 04:24pm | #18

      Thanks Joe I'll check it out...Jim

  8. brownbagg | Apr 09, 2008 05:56pm | #24

    first thing you need is a ten foot satellite dish

  9. CardiacPaul | Apr 10, 2008 12:52am | #30

    Here are some pics of a ceiling I did in my home.

     No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

    1. User avater
      Joe | Apr 10, 2008 02:22am | #32

      Paul,Very nicely done.http://www.josephfusco.org

      1. CardiacPaul | Apr 10, 2008 02:27am | #33

        Thank you very much. No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

    2. james77 | Apr 10, 2008 03:05am | #34

      beautiful...beautiful...beautiful....that is exactally what I've been looking for...would that be refered to a Coffered ceiling? Just how did you frame it and what did you use? You did a great job on the whole project. How long did it take? did you use textured paint? More inportantly how did you do the oval? Please. please give me something it looks magnificent!!!!

      1. CardiacPaul | Apr 10, 2008 03:40am | #37

        Thank You.

        A lot of designs went into that ceiling, The room is only 8' high so I did'nt want to encroach on scale of the space, so what I did was overlay the ceiling with 5/8" DW leaving the oval out. I did the lay out on the floor, did the two nails & string trick to lay  out the oval cut it out, glued around the perimeter of the oval & screwed of the rest with 2" screws, Then I added a 14" perimeter band of additional DW around the room & glued & screwed that off. The raw edges of the new drywall layers where finished off with plastic DW round overs & mudded in.  The plastic DW caps only come in straight lengths so for the oval I had to heat them up & bend them while keeping them flat. I also made my own DW knife out of galvanized sheet stock to float it all in.

         

        As for how long it took? I started the room in 1998 & had the carpet put in Dec. of 07 I was on the Frenchy schedule!! LOL.

        When I got all done I asked my wife if had been worth it all? She responded with

        "Five years ago would have been worth it, Now is about time!!"

        The ceiling it self only took about 20 hrs.

        Most of the millwork in the room I made myself & is all cherry, it all started when I bought the cherry Grandfather clock, the room was all oak & didn't have the fireplace No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

        1. james77 | Apr 13, 2008 04:17am | #46

          very nice job, with the help I have gotten from you guys I think I am ready to start laying out some lines....thanks fellows....Jim

          1. CardiacPaul | Apr 14, 2008 04:58pm | #47

            Best of luck to you, if you need any more pics or detailed infomation let me know.

            Paul No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

          2. james77 | Apr 15, 2008 02:22am | #48

            Paul, do you have pic's during construction? I am still not sure how you attached the lumber to the ceiling rafters. Did you remove the old ceiling?

          3. CardiacPaul | Apr 15, 2008 03:26am | #49

            The center of the ceiling or oval is the original DW,  surrounding the oval is just 5/8"  DW laminated over the existing ceiling, no framing involved for my ceiling. So my ceiling is just layers of DW, no framing added at all. I do have so pix of the job underway, but I'm sure where they are, sorry

            Paul

             No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

            Edited 4/14/2008 8:30 pm ET by CardiacPaul

          4. User avater
            JeffBuck | Apr 15, 2008 05:33am | #50

            that looks great.

            I'm suprised at the "depth" created with just one layer of 5/8th.

             

            nice job finishing and painting too.

            very nice.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          5. CardiacPaul | Apr 15, 2008 05:37am | #51

            Thanks Jeff,

            I'll be posting more pix of the house soon, lots of details to share.

            Your right about the depth, with the plastic bull nose the steps are about 3/4", really adds a lot of drama & richness to the room.

            Paul No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

          6. User avater
            JeffBuck | Apr 15, 2008 05:51am | #52

            did the 5/8th work easily with that big bullnose ...

             

            or do ay think 2 layers of 3/8th  ... or maybe 1/2 and 1/4 or 3/8th woulda been better?

             

            reason I ask ... layering some drywall is looking like the way I'll be patching some existing bad drywall patches along with some newer plumbing repair holes in my LR.

             

            was also thinking the look of a border like you went with.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          7. john7g | Apr 15, 2008 02:03pm | #53

            On a big surface like CardiacPauls I'd be worried about waviness if using 2 layers of thinner sheets.  5/8" is pretty stiff board. 

             

          8. CardiacPaul | Apr 15, 2008 05:59pm | #54

            Jeff,

            The bullnose I used is designed for the  5/8", it radius from the higher ceiling to the lower ceiling & has a flange & mudding ridge.  The outer edge of the bull nose is 3/4" thick & the flange is 5/8", by the time you mud it in the  1/8" difference disappears

            I got the bullnose at my local DW supplier & is made by trim-tex.

            As for your use in your living room, it is a great solution, I removed a closet in my master bath & replaced it with a floor to ceiling corner cabinet, instead of trying to repair the ceiling without any scars or ridges, I used the border treatment around the room covering where the closet walls intersected the ceiling, basically I covered up the old scar instead of repairing it.

            Hope this makes sense No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

          9. james77 | Apr 15, 2008 10:16pm | #55

            the edge of each layer, what type of molding did you use? nice paint job... is the scroll work plaster or plastic?

          10. CardiacPaul | Apr 16, 2008 02:29am | #56

            The bull nose edging is plastic by trim-tec & the medallions are plaster that I had made up for me at a plaster shop in Milwaukee No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

          11. james77 | Apr 16, 2008 04:10pm | #57

            Thanks, I'll try to find trim-tex. there should be some somewhere around Pittsburgh.....or I'll go on line to the company.....jim

    3. mmarrie | Apr 10, 2008 04:07am | #39

      Very Very nice!

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