My client bought all the appliances and had them shipped to the house. I have copies of all the correspondence, including the quotes and the receipts and the shipping tickets, and I got the copies as soon as they were executed. Most of the stuff is Thermador, including two built in ovens. The down-loaded spec sheet for the ovens shows the electrical to be 240 volts / ? amps / 3-wire, and I shared a copy with the electrician when he roughed-in his service. Today he and I uncrated the ovens and we discovered that the instructions shipped with the unit call for 4-wire service. Well, it’s an island instrallation with the wires in the slab, so pulling a neutral will be a problem (Actually the problem is where the wires come up in the wall…there is a conduit in the slab.)
He’s a union licensed master electrician, and I trust his judgement, so when he said he could make the existing 10-2 w/G work, I believed him. But it makes me mad that the factory didn’t call for a 4-wire service in the first place. It would have been just as easy to pull a 4 into the conduit as a 3, and there wouldn’t have been the need to compromise.
Just needed to vent. Thanks 🙂 We also discovered today that the quote for the microwave included a 30″ trim kit, and they shipped a 27″ kit. The sales lady said I should just modify the cabinet. And she forgot to ask the customer what kind of gas service for the high-dollar 5-burner cooktop, so she didn’t buy the Lp conversion kit. Never mind that the delivery address is for a very small rural town…that should have been the first clue.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell’em “Certainly, I can!” Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Replies
I think you should have a word with your union licensed master electrician. It's been code for a while that 4-wire be used on all new wiring. That, inspite of what the specs from the manufacturer say, was what should have been in the conduit in the first place.
Well, there was a sentence in the instructions that backed up what he said about tieing together the neutral and ground. And we did follow the mfgr printed instructions. You know, for a retro-fit there are times when the old style 3-wire is all that's available, but dang it the mfgr should spec the current standard.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Any appliance that is 120/240 requires a separate ground and neutral. Four-wire has been the way, for very good reasons, for about a decade if memory serves. Electrician should known this and provided for it in good order. Maybe a helper put in the wrong cable and he missed it. Possible. Also a possible way for him to save face.
IMHO he should do whatever is necessary to correct the situation within the existing code. Whatever it takes.Your house. Make him get it right. If he redoes it relatively gracefully no major problem. Anyone can make a mistake or have a bad day. How he handles it defines professionalism. Any dolt can work the good times. It is pinch hitting under pressure that earns the stripes. If he seriously balks consider bringing in the inspector. This usually sobers them and stifles the shrugs and giggles
If your man can't reasonably handle it gracefully and in good time consider hiring an electrician with more old work experience and back charge. They, we, live by getting cables into 'impossible' spots without having to disassemble the house. Contractors that have only done, or mostly done, new construction are often stymied by these situations.
Mostly I would consider your options and try to talk it out before escalating the situation.
.
Ed,
I agree with Ralph. Any electrician worth his salt would keep up with the Code and would run a 4-wire circuit to the oven/range (and the clothes dryer too).
Cliff
we are the professionals ...
the copy writers ain't ....
he shoulda known better ...
shoulda been questioned from the start.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You said the wire was in conduit, which I imagine it must be since it can't be direct cast into the concrete. Why can't the old wire be pulled out and the correct wire be pulled?
Stoves have required the new wire for a lot of years. The electrician should have known better.
Not only that, wire is named for the number of current carrying conductors, not including the ground. So a "three conductor" cable would be two hots and a neutral. "Three conductor with ground" would be two hots, one neutral, and one ground. It's no different than romex where a cable would be labled "12/2 w/g" -- it would be incorrect to call it three wire cable. So, the instructions were correct to call for a "three wire" cable. That means three current carrying conductors not counting the ground.
So your electrician got it wrong on two counts, installing wiring in violation of code, and not understanding manufacturer's spec sheets which appear to have used correct, standard terminology.
One possible fix for this is if you can find out what the 120 is used for. If it is just used for the clock and/or light then he could install an auto transforer in the cabinet if there is some place to hid it.
But if it warming element or some thing high powered on the 120 it probably will not be cost effective.
As I write this I know that this will work, but I am not sure of how the code handles this. Never had to do anythign with transformes except that within equipment.
Interesting idea. Very innovative. Hadn't occurred to me to install a transformer to derive 120v. Most of these units, all that I have had to deal with so far, use the 120v to run a small clock and/or a control unit. Most of these controls operate through simple electro-mechanical units so no electronic relays to worry about throwing off with a separate voltage source. Good odds of working.
Still I would double check with the manufacturers technical support line. I have had a lot of good experiences working with tech folks. Most seem glad to get a call from someone who works in the trade. The ones I talked to always went out of their way to help. If they say OK then I would consider it. Keeps the insurance companies happy that way.
I think I would still push for replacing the 3-wire installing the right cable rather than a make-work solution. It will make it easier when the unit needs replacement. Any more I put in 4-wire as a matter of course. You probably also. It is far easier to not use what you have than make up for a conductor you don't.
Sounds like a typical kitchen job.
I would have the electrician make the change in wiring. Tell him you will pay any extra costs. This will keep everybody on the same team and he will give you a break on the price. Maybe not charge you anything.
why should you pay extra. Even I knew 4 wire was code. Are you sure he license. Only answer, pull the wire and add a ground. If not the inspector will make you pull the wire and add ground.
The reason that you should offer to pay for this is that it will cost you less in the long run and will spare yourself and every one on the job a lot of ill will. If you want to use this electrician (or any other sub, for that matter) in the future, you want to have them working hard for you and your customer. If you don't have confidence in this sub and don't want to use him again, by all means be as tough as you can.
Many of these threads focus on assigning blame for various errors or mistakes by one party or another, with the goal of extacting some kind of monetary compensation. So be it, but I personally have found that this is not a productive way to conduct my business. Mistakes, both mine and other's, are a fact of life and should be corrected as soon and easily as possible if the project is to move forward smoothly. Fault should only be emphasized so as to prevent similar problems from occurring in the future. As a contractor, I need to include money in the budget for dealing with and correcting mistakes. I find that this money removes a big roadblock to maintaining high quality in my employee's and subcontractor's work.
First of all, I am not an electrician but have installed several ranges, most recently a dual fuel Dacor.
The electrician should have pulled the proper amperage rated 4-wire cable no matter what the manual said.
Having said that, I'll bet the Thermador installation manual did not mislead you to not use a 4-wire cable.
I seriously doubt the technical writers will be at fault.
If I'm not mistaken, the 4-wire rule has been in effect since around 1996, but I may be wrong on that one.
He should pull the new cable using the wrong/old one.
Could be a fairly simple changeover for a properly equipped/experienced electrician and he SHOULD NOT point fingers at Thermador.
Probably wasting time hemming and hawing over what to do when the electrician should just suck it up and deal with it pronto. That's probably the best way to save face for everyone involved. This should have been done as soon as the 'problem' was noticed.
"We also discovered today that the quote for the microwave included a 30" trim kit, and they shipped a 27" kit. The sales lady said I should just modify the cabinet. And she forgot to ask the customer what kind of gas service for the high-dollar 5-burner cooktop, so she didn't buy the Lp conversion kit. "
That's why now my appliance policy is to allow the Client to purchase the units as long as I order the units. This gives me time and oppertunity to double check all specs and ask the right questions. Get them to send you the correct trim kit - even if you have to move up the food chain to do it. You purchased major $ from this supplier. They should give you deluxe service. Modifying the cabinet cost you $ and it will always look like a modification.
As for the electrical issue - is this the first electric appliance kitchen you have installed in the last 5 or so years? Maybe. Bet you'll never make this mistake again!
Live and learn. S__t happens. Happy to hear you vent and are move on.
F.
hi ed
4 wire is used i believe so you have an isolated ground & neautral ask the electrician. i just hope for your sake the interior componets work wit a 10/2. is it getting inspected ???
Ditto what the others said. 4 wires has been code for several years. The electrician should have pulled 4, regardless of what the manual said.
But I'll bet if you look more closely the Thermador manual says 4. It's just a matter of "interpretation".
Ed, what did you download?
http://www.thermador.com/site_tools/documents.cfm?cat_id=69
http://www.thermador.com/replacementparts/main/pdfs/16-10-988C.pdf
Looked at several, they are pretty specific, 4 wire single phase power supply.
Joe H
Ok, I'm going to try to paste a spec sheet from the Thermador site. The oven is model SC301. Look in the "General information" section. Sure looks like 3-wire to me.
The problem with pulling a new wire is that the conduit comes up in a wing wall that is 10 ft high, and has two ( I think two, at least one) sets of horizontal blocking, so the sheetrock would have to be cut off to get the wire up the wall and into the attic.
FYI, the sales lady did agree to swap the trim kit for a new one. I just copuldn't believe that she would even suggest modifying the cabinet.
The electrician has been excellent up to now, We are in the country and there are no inspections, but he has insisted on doing everything right all along. Won't cut any corners, even if it costs me or the HO a little extra :) Seriously, he has been very good.
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SC301ZP30" Stainless Steel Single Convection Oven
Appearance
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Flat Flush Frame
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Sens-A-Touchâ„¢ Electronic Control In Glass
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Oven Capacity - Cubic Feet, Upper or Single Oven
4.1
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Finish: Black, White or Stainless Steel: Monochromatic Handle
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Finish: Stainless Steel with Professional Handle
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Performance
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Dual Element Bake
Yes
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Variable Broil
Yes
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Third Element Convection
Yes
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Convection - Roast
Yes
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Timed & Delay Timed Mode
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Convenience
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Self-Cleaning Oven(s)
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Interior Venting
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Motorized Door Lock(s)
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Minute Timers
2
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Child Lock-Out
Care and Use Manual
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Rack Positions
6
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Number of Racks
3
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Dual-Level Halogen Lights
Auto / Manual
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General Information
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Broil/Bake Wattage
3600/2800
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Third Element Wattage
2750
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Dual-Rated 120/208-240 Volts, 3-Wire, 60HZ
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AMPS
20
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Approximate Shipping Weight (LBS.)
165
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Dimensions
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Overall Dimensions - A*â€
28 5/8
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Overall Dimensions - B*â€
29 3/4
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Overall Dimensions - C*
23 7/8
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Overall Dimensions - D* **
22
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Upper / Single Oven Interior Dimensions - Height
16 1/4
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Upper / Single Oven Interior Dimensions - Width
25
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Upper / Single Oven Interior Dimensions - Depth
17 1/2
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Accessories
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Model #
Name
Shipping Weight
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KIT130TMH
Tape Kit for S301, SC301 or C301
1 lbs
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D30SXSB
Black Trim Piece
3 lbs
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D30SXSW
White Trim Piece
3 lbs
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Diagrams
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Sens-A-Touch is a trademark of Touch Sensor TechnologiesNotes: All height, width and depth dimensions are shown in inches. For a detailed listing of approved cooktop models for this installation please refer to oven installation instructions.*Please refer to installation instructions prior to making cutout.**Largest door.†Add 1/16" height and 1/8" width for stainless steel models (S-Series only.)All models are UL approved. Select 30" models are CUL approved for sales in Canada. For immediate critical installation dimensions by fax, use your fax handset and call (775) 833-3600. Use code #8030 for a directory of Thermador products.
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Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Only one, maybe two, sets of blocking in the wall between the attic and the conduit?
If you have at least 8" vertical room in the attic in that location, enough room to work an angle drill and a stubby auger, this should be an easy one. Piece of cake.
There's nothing wrong with the spec sheet. It clearly says it's a 240 volt system, and requires 3 wires. In electrical terminology only the current carrying conductors are specified. So, three wires (two hots and one neutral) plus a ground. There's no excuse for your electrician not knowing this.
It may be some work to fix it, but if it were my house, I would.
Wayne...playing the devil's advocate...when the spec sheet says 4-wire, should the electrician pull 4 insulated plus a ground wire?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
It also CLEARY says DUAL rated 120/208-240 voltage. Very similar wording to the spec on SPA's. However many SPA's can be wired to work on either 120 v or 240 volt circuits and in either case onlY 2 wire, plus ground.
But they also list two different current requirements and a foot note someplace that indicates that performance is different on 120 than 240.
And I would not think that the 208-240 is dual rated. Much equipment that is speced for 240 will also operate on 208, if you read the fine print, and 99% (probably 100%, but there might be an exception) of heating appliances are speced to work on 208-240.
I liked at some GE specs.
Here is what they have on the range. This is there Quick Spec which gives the dimension (and cutouts for the builtins) the electrical "requiments" and a few appliance features.
KW rating 240V - 13Kw, 208 - 10.9Kw; 40 amp breaker; "A properly grounded branch circuit with A 3 PRONG GROUNDING TYPE RECEPTACLE".
That makes it sound like this is a 240 volt ONLY appliance and can be connected with a total of 3 wires INCLUDING the ground.
It is not until you pull down the installation instructions do you find that it is realy a 120/240 volt appliance and that it can be installed with a 3 wire circuit for old installations or a 4 wire circuit for new installation.
"and requires 3 wires. In electrical terminology only the current carrying conductors are specified."
That is true for most circuits. As having a separate ground has been standard for long, long time (mid 60's, early 70's ??) that is realized that the ground wire is always implied.
However, that is not true for ranges and dryers as they have not required a ground until 96 (except for mobile homes and some local codes). And there are both installations into new construction (or new circuits) and installations into existing circuit permitted to be grandfathered into the code. So it is comon for range/dryer to talk about the TOTAL number of wires.
Edited 3/28/2004 7:47 am ET by Bill Hartmann
Ok Joe, the light just clicked on. I went to the first link you posted, and went to item 85 (I think) which is a SC301 series oven (there are one or two suffix letters, but they are for the color). There are three docs listed, one is the install guide and one is the planning guide...they have conflicting info. The install guide does show 4-wire. The planning guide showed all the info I needed for planning the kitchen, and so that's the one I printed. There are two oven sizes: 27" and 30". Mine is 30". If you look at the planning guide, you will see that the 27" specs 4-wire and the 30" specs 3-wire, for the same voltage. Why?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
You're right -- part of it sez 4 wire & that one line sez 3 wire.
But code is 4, and it's been that way for a loooong time.
Joe H
"But code is 4, and it's been that way for a loooong time."
Incorrect.
The code says absolutely nothing about the number of wires required.
It only says that a ground is required. And gives a grandfather exception for ranges/dryers that don't have a ground circuit installed.
FWIW, I have the exact oven installed in my kitchen, and since this house was built in 55, there is no ground wire. Two legs and a neutral. It plays fine...
> FWIW, I have the exact oven installed in my kitchen, and since this
> house was built in 55, there is no ground wire. Two legs and a
> neutral. It plays fine...
Yeah, but if someone gets electrocuted due to an open ground (not all that unlikely), and the installation isn't to the code that existed at the time the wiring was installed, then there's a major liability (and guilt) issue.
there werent that many attorneys in 55 !!!!
Couple of comments... First, in this case there is not a question of liability or responsibility or finger-pointing. The sparky and I have a good relationship, and we will do the right thing, and act like professionals the whole time. Today we revisited the situation and worked on a plan. We are trying to figger out how to pull a new conductor with the least amount of invasive surgery...no answer yet. If we have to open the wall, I'll pay for that part and he'll cover the electrical side...no hard feelings...he admits he should have caught it. Why don't I make him pay the whole thing? Well, I don't have a hard answer. But as the GC it's my problem, and I'm looking for the best-easiest-quickest solution so we can get on to other things.
The original posting was done in frustration for the lack of attention to detail by Thermador. Yes, contrary to another posting, they are expected to be the pros when it comes to writing specs for their products. They should spec the best possible conditions, and have alternate solutions for deviant installations. I don't expect to get anything out of them, and I don't plan to ask. But they have a licensed professional electrical engineer who approves the calcs for the electrical loads, and they have paid staff to write the literature, and it sure seems that someone there got paid for not doing their job.
And I'm still waiting for an answer from someone about the number of conductors expected when the mfgr calls out a 4-wire service. WayneL made the original comment, but any of you Monday mornign quarterbacks can step up and answer. He said that when they call for a 3-wire service, that's only the current carrying conductors, and a ground wire is assumed to be present. I then asked if there should be a total of five wires pulled when they call out a 4-wire service. Well?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
its four wires, its alway four wires, not five, not three. 2 hots 1 netrual and a ground.
With all due respect and we understand your good working relationship with the electrician.
That's good.
It's probably best to just get it over with and do the proper thing -
figure out the best way to get the 4-wire cable pulled.
I think there's too much hair-splitting over semantics when most everyone explained what 4-wire is.
The amount of time it's taken to go back and forth over this would have fixed the issue at hand.
"Just Do It."
The amount of time it's taken to go back and forth over this would have fixed the issue at hand. You are exactly right. FYI the semantics issue is not between me and the electrician...it's directed at the folks here who say that the stated number refers to the current carrying conductors, and a ground is always added.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
re - FYI the semantics issue is not between me and the electrician...it's directed at the folks here who say that the stated number refers to the current carrying conductors, and a ground is always added.
------
Look at what has happened.
The semanitics issue originates from between you and the electrician, and that includes the claim of misleading info in the manual instead of the trusted electrician following the correct procedure that has been in place for nearly 10 years.
So....the folks on this thread who helped answer questions that should have been evident to your electrician are now being questioned/quizzed over the semantics of their explaining the obvious even to DIYers.
Once again, wasting time over details that doesn't solve your immediate concern, which is to do it right and get it over with.
"ts four wires, its alway four wires, not five, not three. 2 hots 1 netrual and a ground."
Then how come the specs on a GE range calls out "KW rating 240V - 13Kw, 208 - 10.9Kw; 40 amp breaker; "A properly grounded branch circuit with A 3 PRONG GROUNDING TYPE RECEPTACLE".
How are you going to fit 4 wires on that 3 prong receptacle?
But like this case they had different information in the installation instructions.
And why is it 4 wires? You don't run 4 wires for an AC or water heater.
I am really surprised that there are not 240 volt ONLY ranges, cook tops, and overns. There was a logical reason way back when burners had two elements and there where descrete steps for the burners by switching in differente elements between 120 and 240.
With many of them having electronic controls it would be just as easy to design to them work on 240.
But there are two areas that the total number of wires should be always becalled out. Ranges and dryers because there is the still used non-gounded, 3 wire installations and the new 4 wire installation and feeder circuits.
And feeder circuits can be either 3 wire or 4 wire depending on if there is a main disconnect in front of the pannel or not and feeders to outbuildings can be either depending on all of the details.
>>And why is it 4 wires?
Just in case they install a new stove in 10 years that needs 4 wires.
SamT
Ed
"4 wire service" would be 3 hots, a neutral and a ground = 5 wires. thinking back to a one semester electrical class done 30 years ago, 3 phase is three wire and doesn't need a neutral cause it's balanced. High voltage transmission lines therefore only need 3 conductors. If you're counting 6 wires in them it's because there's two circuits. 3 phase splits into 3 single phases which each need a neutral (which can be a common wire). This is the reason the low voltage runs in the street use 4 wires.
What sort of appliance would need 3 hots (i.e. 3 single phase connections) rather than a 3 phase hook-up I don't know, but I do know that keeping a 3 phase circuit balanced can be very tricky so for a high current appliance like a two or three door oven where heating elements turn on and off independently it may be better to connect the elements to 3 separate single phase circuits rather than one 3 phase circuit.
Ian
I think you're absolutely right about the settlement you came to with the electrician. He should do his work over again at no cost to you, but it would be ungracious to stick him with the costs of opening up the wall and so forth. Nice job.
I hope your whole kitchen comes out beautiful. All of this will fade when you've got a nice kitchen all finished.
Ed, you aren't the only one getting tripped up by kitchen equipment manufacturers.I've worked on commercial projects with substantial amounts of kitchen equipment recently and I'd say about a fourth of the time the equipment isn't delivered as per specs and drawings.Sometimes it's the sales reps inattention to detail that jams us up,but honestly,I think that there just isn't that much competition in that market,and so they just don't care enough about little details like correct electrical data.I've worked on two sports facilities with sizable concession areas,two restaurants,and a full service grocery store in the last four years,and with each project the kitchen equipment suppliers were PITA's to deal with.At the grocery store if we expected a meat dept.grinder to be a 3 phase 208 unit,it would arrive single phase 208 but needed a neutral.A bakery dept.dough proofer would be spec'd 3 ph./4 wire 120/208 and it would come in single phase 240 but needing two additional,separate 120v circuits for fans.It got to the point that we would rough in the raceway but not pull any wire until the unit was in the store for our inspection.It slowed progress down some but who should get screwed,the contractor for following the manufacturer's drawings and then having to make changes or the customer who is paying top equipment dollar in the first place? Some of the deli casework was a $1000 a foot and the manufacturer would give us both incorrect electrical data on the units AND improper rough-in dimensions.
Whatever the reason is for equipment foul-ups you have to CYA,and unfortunately your guy didn't.Everyone drops the ball on occasion,it is how you recover that is the mark of your professionalism.No need for Monday morning QB'ing of your electrician,if you work regularly with him,he'll make it right.
In my experience equipment that is specified to be three wire,requires three insulated conductors plus ground.Four wire equipment requires four insulated conductors plus ground.
Barry
Many thanks to all who beat me up...I mean contributed...to this discussion. I'm not going to beat this dead horse any more. The distance to the panel is about 25 ft. The ovens (there are two, side by side) are each on separate circuits, and the cooktop is gas, with a separate circuit for the ignitor and exhaust fan. The electrician seems to have gone by the book...for example, there is an undercounter ice maker and next to it is a 15 inch wide undercounter wine cooler. He insisted on separate circuits for each. Like wise for the convenience outlets on the island...there are four outlets, on two separate circuits, GFI of course. And then there are three separate circuits for the outlets along the wall. And the garbage disposer is on a separate circuit, and each dishwasher (two again) has it's own circuit. Dang near filled the panel.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I've become an advocate of retrievable electrical work. Meaning: anything buried in concrete or behind walls should be in a sleeve so that it can be pulled, or added.
Ed, my shoot from the hip thought is,, I'd be more concerned with the size wire, that you have run, ie #10, than the number of conductors at this point. Yes, I have read all the posts, so far, but all the while, I'am thinking #10 is to small. Some variables, ie- distance to meter, type wire run. Seems to me that #8 or #6 is a more common wire size for stoves. Note: I'am a hammerhead, and not an electrician. best of luck, Jim J
Wire size was my initial concern as well, but it is only 20 amps - seems kind'a light duty, but perhaps it is a secondary oven.
Ed your electrician should have pulled in 8/3 awg wire into the conduit ,he not only got the number of wires incorrect but also the size most ranges have a 40 amp double pole breaker on them which requires #8awg wire .Make him tear it out and do it right I can forsee Christmas turkey in the oven vegetables on the stove and the breaker keeps tripping out . 8/3 means #8 conductor and 3 of them not including a ground.