Overheated recessed light fixtures
We installed a dozen 4” recessed light fixtures (ceiling cans) supposedly rated for a 50 watt halogen bulb, made by Juno, IC rated, that is, suitable for full contact and cover with insulation. Our code requires R-30 insulation over the ceiling, in this case 10” of blown-in cellulose. These lights suffer from overheating and trip off after about an hour when on, the “disco effect”.
The manufacturer’s rep says to “fluff up the insulation” or remove it around the fixture. I have tried a wire-mesh enclosure to provide an extra 3” clear space to allow some air circulation around the fixtures, along with a bat of R-19 fiberglass placed over the top but the only thing that seems to work (i.e., no overheat trip off) is no insulation over the fixture. Of course each of these ceiling fixtures will then become a hole through the insulation and would allow for stack-effect heat loss (heat and moisture) into the vented attic space.
- How can a manufacturer get away with an “IC rated” fixture that cannot operate properly when covered w/ insulation?
- Is there something else we can do to besides replacing each fixture? Or is this a common problem w/ all 4” recessed cans w/ halogen bulbs? Must we leave these fixtures un-insulated – or blinky?
Replies
Obviously, the manufacturer is full of it -- he presumably guarantees that the units pass UL testing and thus don't catch fire, but the product is not "fit for stated purpose". You may have to eat it and buy new units from elsewhere. (I'd at least take the old ones back and demand a refund.)
But first you should make sure that all the internal reflectors and heat shields are in place.
What kind of trims are on the lights?
Different trims sometimes dictate different bulbs. Most cans have the story written up in the can. How do your bulb specs match up?
Have you tried dropping the voltage of these bulbs. Halogens give off more heat.
Actually, halogens give off slightly less heat, they just run hotter because they're smaller for the wattage.
Actually?
Give off less?
run hotter?
And an advantage of halogens, from the fixture mfgr's standpoint, is that they can operate hotter and hence need less space and less ventilation. A halogen is perfectly happy in a confined fixture that would burn out a regular bulb.
Clarifications are in order
First off I owe an apology to Juno... the suspect fixtures are Elco. The same 4" cans are supplied for either recessed (w/ white baffle as supplied by Elco) or for "eye-ball" mount. Both are rated for 50 watt halogen (max). In fact the only bulb that will work/fit in the eyeball is the halogen bulb. And I did try a 50 watt old-style reflector bulb in one recessed can with the same results: tripped off after a hour or so.
The eyball fixtures do not overheat, probably since they are mounted at the ceiling line and/or the eyeball mount acts as a heat sink. The manufacturer's rep seemed familiar w/ the problem since she suggested the "fluff and remove" (insulation) as a fix.
Yeah, "fluff and remove"
Yeah, "fluff and remove" isn't a valid answer, unless it means to fluff and remove the rep's brain.
Elco, no knowledge of that brand.
And I do suspect that there is no lowering of the socket (like in many brands of 6" cans. This would take the bulb and heat source down from being close to the sensor. (like what the eyeball is doing-the bulb is lower).
Best of luck in getting this worked out.
Have you looked at or tried a lower wattage bulb?
That is a valid point, though: The OP should check to see if the socket is on a slide up/down, and, if so, slide it as far down as possible. Also look for something misassembled in the unit.
Elco is a major brand
Yes I tried lowering (nd raising) the bulb... lower wattage seems to work but besides the point: these are "rated" for 50 watt halogens.
A dimmer switch works, too, to lower the effective wattage.
I am mainly loking if others have had this problem with these or other brands. Or just my problem to pick the wrong manufacturer.
And other ideas for insulating the ceiling while allowing for heat disapation from the fixtures.
Never heard of elco recessed lights.
But that's not important. Your satisfaction is. Screw the rep, get in touch with someone up the foodchain. Disturbing your insulation is unacceptable. Lowering your wattage-you evidently don't want to do.
Best of luck.
Further.
I take it these are not remodel housings? If they were you could send these back to Elco and demand a full refund. Replace with something like Juno that I have never had a problem with. They have airtite IC cans that would probably swap out to your hole.
And I also assume that the trims are rated in this fixture at 50 watts.
I have no familiarity with Elco-tho I may have had their undercab strip lights used in a kitchen a couple yrs ago. Premature lamp failure (some) was the only complaint on those strip lights.
thanks for the comments
I guess it is back up the food chain to see what I can determine from Elco.... besides the lame excuse from the rep.
I keep thnking I got product w/ a series of faulty thermal switches.
All new construction installation so a pain-in-the A to R&R.
One question is whether they work OK with all insulation removed. If so, you MIGHT be able to "fix" the problem by building a box of about 2 cu ft around the units, using drywall or foam insulation board. Then insulate around the box.
I tried a smaller "box"
Made 12 welded wire mesh boxes w/ about 3" clear around each fixture. This delayed the "disco effect" but did not eliminate it. No insulation above works just fine.
The question now comes down to whether to do more experiments or just pull these out and replace w/ Juno or Halo versions of the same.
Still waiting for more/better response from Elco Corp "customer service" [Vernon, CA]
robin
Still waiting for...................?
That's bogus. Too bad this place isn't as vibrant as b/4-we'd deluge those folks with a WTF is up with their product.
After all, who buys this stuff? "One of" homeowners? You won't make a long lasting business doing this in mail order.
Nice to know that Elco bites for product and customer service.
Next time use Halo/Cooper Lighting - http://www.haloltg.com/common/brands.cfm?pg=Products&brandName=Halo&group=Recessed&category=Recessed%20Downlighting%3A%203%22%20Incandescent%20and%20Low%20Voltage%3A%203%22%20Housings
So, what are you telling them?
Halogen's might set off the overheat sensor b/4 a reg. flood sized for the housing/trim?
or not.
I'd assume the opposite.
Of all the cans we've installed properly, the only time the overheat trips is when the bulb/trim/housing is not within specs.
Either the lamp wattage is too high (he says not) or the trim is not rated for use with the lamp, or there's something amiss with the sensor/housing.
For instance-a 75 watt rated fixture will trip when using a reg. 75 watt bulb-because the round bulb in the inverted position gives off rather than reflects the heat downward.
A covered trim traps the heat of a "rated" bulb.
Something's not kosher.
The rep is lame. If the fixture is truly IC rated, and you installed it right w/ the right wattage and all, then you shouldn't have issues. You shouldn't have to fluff or hold insulation back ... period. I assume there is an IC label on the inside of the can?
Recheck the specs and labels. Recheck the install requirements. Then press the rep/mfg for satisfaction.
Personally, I avoid the halogen fixtures all together. Expensive lamps!! wow. That is a primary criteria for me for choosing light fixtures now. I bought some pendents and found out they were halogen. Loved the fixture/style, but the lamps are expensive and seem to burn out more frequently than I care to have happen. Plus the halogen aren't particularly efficient ... they are a type of incandescent lamp.
Personally I'd go CFL or LED for recessed lights.
You are right ... potential tunnels of heat loss. Remember IC rated doesn't also mean sealed from air flow. At least it didn't used to.