Hi all! Thank you for taking the time to read this message.
Thinking about being our own general contractor but we do admit we’re not experts; however, the potential savings is appealing. In our area of Washington State (Gig harbor), generals are getting 15%-17% on a house and with ours targeted at approx. $300-$350K that’s big money. Our thought is even if we only save 5% (lose the remaining 10%-12% to higher sub-contractor fees, mistakes, ignorance, etc) that’s still $15k-$17k we’re saving. Anyway, has anyone heard of general contractor “consultants” that work with homeowners who are acting as their own general? Their role is not the “at the job site daily” stuff, but helping the owner understand what needs to be done, problems to look out for, and how to deal with the one-offs that are undoubtedly going to occur. Do you think you could talk a general into acting as a consultant? If so, how much is reasonable compensation? How would you structure compensation, flat fee, per meeting?
Thanks in advance for your reply!!
Replies
Yeah, they charge about 8%.
Let me make this easy for you. You will not save any money. An education in general contracting is very expensive.
WAHD
Mathman,
This is kinda like taking your own bacon and eggs into the diner, asking the staff to cook it for you while you stand behind them explaining how you want it done, and then asking for a discount because hey, after all, you supplied the materials and the knowledge.
Sure, we've all heard of these "consultants." As Mike Smith has pointed out, they're usually builders who have gone bust.
It has taken most of us a lifetime to learn what we know, and it hasn't come cheap. If you want to get the same education, be ready to pay.
DRC
I'm acting as my own GC on a building project, and would not be doing this if I didn't have close friends and relatives in the area to provide advice when needed. Also, I've done plumbing professionally in the past. This project is not nearly as large in scope as yours, and doing this has made me realize WHY a good, licensed GC is worth every penny he charges. Have you built a house before? Without a GC, you'll be 100% exposed to the intricacies of planning, permits, schedules, the necessity of extending blind trust out to unknown and untested subs, distractions at and absences from your job. I would say, if you are earning enough to pay for a 300+K house, you DON'T have time to be your own GC.
by the time your house is finished and you are able to move in all you will rememmber are the problems that you had that will be the memorie of your new house and you will find that you did not save a penny
Go for it. If you don't you will be second guessing and I-wishing-I-had for the rest of your life. Be prepared to spend a lot of time you don't have with incredibly senseless minutia, ill-ego'd subs, fickle inspectors, bad weather, good weather (deer season), late material deliveries, etc. You will probably not be able to find a working contractor who would act as a consultant; maybe a retired or broke contractor. Is there any strain in the marriage? If not, there will be. If yes, kiss that union goodbye. And then there's the bank...they will resist lending you money, and if they do, there will be several strings attached. Good luck, and write often.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Mathman6,
I am in the process of building my own home, and being my own general just down the road from you in Kitsap County. I agree if you do not have a good understanding of the construction trade, and have known subs it will not save you and the medical bills will drive you nuts. However if you have the knowledge and a bunch of subs you know then it can be a lot of fun, ok I have a weird sense of fun. Also I am doing a lot of the work myself so this adds to the savings, and to the stress. Think twice before you jump in, also on a side note it is harder and more expensive to get a construction loan as a owner/builder.
Jason
Anyone who's thinking of building their own house (Or being their own GC) should read the Spec House from Hell thread first.
Don't laugh at these fogged up windows. It's your daughter in here.
Boss, that's not an exact correlation. Building your own house, while it might be a chore, at least has an end and a committed buyer. A spec house has many of the same problems, with the added major hickey that it might not sell.Do it right, or do it twice.
"Boss, that's not an exact correlation."
You're right, of course. But hey - I put a LOT of work into typing that story in. Gotta get all the mileage I can out of it............(-:
"A spec house has many of the same problems,..."
Really, that's why I posted it. As several other pointed out, there's a REASON that the GC gets paid for dealing with all the headaches.If there is a tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
I read that evil thread, and I have a lot of sympathy and resperct for you as a result. Didn't mean to say that your comment in this thread was inappropriate...building a spec vs building a contract house will both have all the same problems, except for the last day. And I think you're right to suggest that anyone contemplating building their own home should read your epistle very carefully.
Do it right, or do it twice.
In my opinion, unless you are very experienced with construction (and with diplomacy), you should not try to GC your own house.
Building departments didscriminate against owner builders making them wait longer for permits, inspections, etc. They are also MUCH tougher on them with their inspections.
Banks won't loan you the money in many cases unless you have a licensed GC doing the job (not a construction loan anyway). If you do manage to get the money, you'll be put under more intense scrutiny as far as your schedule goes than a GC they may have more experience with.
Suppliers will deal better with a GC since a GC will know exactly what to order and can change material orders on the fly if need be to make up for any temporary shortages the supplier may be experiencing. Suppliers won't have the time to walk you through what order changes you may need to make to keep the work flowing. Some suppliers won't even deal with a homeowner.
Subcontractors will smoke out an inexperienced homeowner and will either refuse to work for you, or won't list you as a priority especially if they work for many other GCs. They might also charge you more for the work as they expect more problems with little chance of repeat work from you. Your inexperience will also open you up to unscrupulous subs that'll just take your money and do inferior work if any work at all.
This is a pretty big investment on your part, why the need to try and save a few bucks here or there? If you don't have the money to build, cut back the scale of the project. Make it smaller, less detailed, less luxurious, etc. Maybe you can have it finished to a lower level (not tiling the whole bathroom(s), using a lower line kitchen cabinet, etc., and upgrading later on?
"Building departments didscriminate against owner builders making them wait longer for permits, inspections, etc. They are also MUCH tougher on them with their inspections."
Must be your area. Here in Bellevue, WA the inspectors are more than happy to work with the home owner. In fact, some will show you how to do things. When it comes to correcting things they are a lot easier on the home owner than a licensed person who should know better. Bellevue has one of the toughest codes in WA state.
I have also taken the GC role on my remodel but I have also been doing most of the work. I agree with a lot of posts here if you don't know much about the trade you will have a tough time. Communicating with your subs is really important to avoid major screwups. And you need to know whats going on just to plan and schedule. That's what will kill ya. And to sit down and look at ALL the things that need to be done can give you that queezy feeling in your stomach.
Ask several here who work on their own homes what still needs to be done. It becomes a life long project!
Steve
I'm in the northeast and what I've come across is that with the present boom in remodeling and new home construction going on, building inspectors just don't want to be bothered by homeowner built projects unless they're small in scope or aren't critical structures (ground level decks, sheds, gazebos, etc.). Do I think it's right? No, but I can see where problems can crop up when you need to schedule inspectors up to 6 weeks in advance and everybody wanting to speed projects along.
During slow times I'm sure that building departments and inspectors lighten up a little and are more accomodating.
Hey nino,
Very good points. Very good post.
skipj
You're on a fools errand
Hey Mathman , I'm GCing my own home right now down here in Tacoma. And I can say it is well worth it for me. Mainly because I work in the trades and I know a lot of different concractors and distributors . I wouldn't probably try it if I didn't know as many people as I do. Also i'll complete all my own HVAC,electrical, tile, footing and downspout drains , interior trim and build my own custom cabinets. While working a forty an hour week job. Did I mention i'm only 29 years old as well.
I'm also going through Pierce County ,and they can be picky sometimes. For the most part their not too bad. I've had to work out a easement issue for the last couple of months and thats been the biggest headache. I think your biggest issue is the fact that spring and summer is rolling around the corner and contractors aren't going to be so easy to come by. So I would decide real quick with what you want to do.
Also, financing for a owner/builder is not as difficult as it sounds. Timberland bank offers the Best program for owner/builders and they truley make it happen. I would call them up.
If I can do it so can you.
GCing your own house when you are an established tradesperson with knowledge of construction, friends in the business, contacts at local supply house etc. is not even in the same vicinity of where this thread began. I know that you said you would not try it if you did not know as many people as yout do, but lets remember we are discussing the pros and cons of an individual with limited to no working knowledge of the construction business acting as a general contractor on their own home.
If you have a job and you are good at, how would you like a boss with no knowledge of your profession supervising your every move?
How do you know what comes first in the sequence of construction? Materials are changing daily, construction techniques vary from region to region, from crew to crew?
Do you go to General Motors and ask to oversee the production of your next car for a discount? Do you ask the dentist to assist on the route canal for your wife?
My advise...do what you know and hire someone for what you don't know. If you can't afford to do it right, don't do it, save some more money, you don't have too many investments larger than your home, don't blow it.
Edited 4/2/2003 4:44:54 PM ET by Bill
Do you ask the dentist to assist on the route canal for your wife? Well, maybe for the ex-wife...Do it right, or do it twice.
Well, you got a prettty good cross-section of responses. I think that almost every one of them was intended to make sure you're going into this with your eyes wide open, and without a pollyanna attitude. If we didn't scare you off, then jump right into the project and feel free to come back for more advice. A word to the wise...don't come back and post whiney messages about problems caused by lack of experience or communication...you won't get any sympathy here. But you will get real answers and solid advice.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Okaaay! Now I have a new number to write on the bathroom walls!
Do it right, or do it twice.
ELCID
Oh man I cant stop laughing!
elcid72,
Thought about doing the 'respond to my post' thing, but didn't want to seem like, well a pr@@@k. You know what I mean? Sure you do.
Call me. Have you heard the new air horns?
skipj
Wow! A new air horn! I gotta hear that! Let's see...I'm in the central time zone, you're in the pacific zone...I'll get up a little early one morning, say about 4:30 my time...that would be, oh, about 2:30 your time...is that ok? Will you have the air horn ready?
Do it right, or do it twice.
hey, my airhorn is a 3-chime nathan off a 1948 New Haven Diesel.. i still haven't figured how to mount it without interferring with my truck rack..
mostly i just hook it up to the compressor and let it rip now and thenMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
How much air does it require?Do it right, or do it twice.
i can blow it just fine with my pancake..
there isn't enough room between my racks and the cab roof to mount it... and it won't fit under the hood...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And there's something wrong with putting it on the hood, or on the fender? Sounds like a nice thing to have when a punk pulls up beside you at a stoplight with the woofers thumping.Do it right, or do it twice.
Here's a few thoughts from someone who's been through this. I gc'd (and did most of the labour) our house. My construction experience before I started was limited to helping a friend frame his house when I was in high school.
1) You won't finish as fast as you think you will.
2) Make sure you are over prepared. You have no experience to point to so they only way you can convince the banks and good subs to work with you is to be so prepared that they are willing to work with you.
3) Tell any subs you want to hire that you are a homeowner gc'ing for yourself. Some won't want to work with you, but you'll have a better relationship with ones you end up hiring if they know up front what they are getting into.
4) This probably should be number 1. Make sure your marriage is solid before you start, and both of you really want to do this big a project. This will stress your marriage.
5) Don't do this to save money. You can save money, but it's too much stress and risk for the money you save. Do it because it's something you want to do, any money saved is a side benefit.
6) Don't do this if you can't drop what you are doing at any point in the day to answer someone's question or solve a problem.
7) Have Fun!
I would not recommend self-contracting a home unless the following points were met.
1. The owner has developed a knowledge base about most all aspects of residential construction and contracting.
2. He/she has spent quite a few months getting to know all the potential suppliers and subcontractors.
3. The project will be built per a well-detailed set of plans and specifications, and the subs all agree that the information is clear and that their work can be done per the documents.
4. The owner is capable of doing most all of the projects, some small, some larger, that fall out of the scopes of the various subcontract packages. Use of tools, and ownership thereof, is required.
5. He/she has the types of communication, project management, and purchasing skills required for a homebuilding project.
And forget the consultant stuff. If you cannot do this yourself, just hire a good builder, and ante up for his services.
Go for it.
I have acted as the GC for several houses for relatives.
It aint rocket science.
Most of the contractors (high end flooring, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, exterior trim, drywall) don't care who they work for.
Good rough framing and roofing crews are hard to get so you you sub out the whole shell.
If you allow a bit of extra tiime in your scheduling, everyone is happy.
Would you rather that I make up some story just so that he becomes convinced to GC his own house?
I mean, I'm glad that things have worked out for you and that you met people that were willing to help you out with your project, but in many cases, that isn't the reality.
Many subs won't work for homeowners GCing their own house and if they do, they usually charge more. This isn't fantasy, this is fact. Can you find ones that will work for you? I'm sure you could, but you have to be prepared for problems that crop up that a GC would smooth over.
Many suppliers only sell to the trade. Items such as microlam beams, "I" joists, trusses, etc, are hard to get at the lumber yard that deals with the public. Not impossible, but not all that easy either. This is a fact. Many GCs have credit accounts with suppliers and can have material delivered over the phone without having to go down there and pay for the materials in advance. Stuff like windows and doors, siding, roofing, etc., can be delivered in timely fashion based on these professional relationships that a homeowner GC will generally lack.
On the subject of inspections, yes, inspectors will answer your questions and be polite as possible, but during busy times, they're not going to build your project for you and they won't have the time to go over everything that a homeowner GC might miss as opposed to a GC whose work they know. I get many a benefit of the doubt only because they're familiar with my work. Inspectors have to produce too and can't afford to get too backed up during the good times.
That you feel this is misinformation, all I can say is I'd rather that he goes into this with both eyes open rather than sugar coating him into a disaster. No, it's not rocket science and it's not a secret society, but it IS a job that requires some skill and is not to be taken lightly.
nino,
You make some great points. Especially for a big job like new construction. It also sounds like MathMan (who appears not to have come back) has liittle if any experience let alone relationships with suppliers. I think he'd be divorced or floating in the sound before the roof goes on.
If someone really wants to do this it should be for the experience not for the savings. The amount of time you will have to put into it will more than make up any savings you could possibly have. And the mental and physical pains. LOL
Steve
The only reason your post struck a chord with me is that many people feel that residential construction of any kind is no big deal. The impression many have is that we're overpriced for the job we do after all, it isn't "rocket science", hell what's the big deal in hammering a nail, etc. Most people feel they can go to a "How To" class at Home Depot and become "expert" at anything involving residential construction (You too can wire your home for a lot less than an electrician would charge! An actual sign advertising a wiring class at a local HD!).
Like I've stated, there are very real concerns that a homeowner must consider before he can undertake a project of this magnitude. I'm not knocking your experience, but I'm giving the experiences that I've personally had in regards to these situations as a sort of balance. I feel that in this way, he can see both sides and weigh his options.
I also understand that things are different in many parts of the country, but human nature tends to be the same everywhere. If he does happen to come across circumstances that I've described, at least he will have heard about it from somewhere and maybe help him out of a situation.
That said, I really do admire homeowners that care enough about their homes to want to do work on them. It shows pride of ownership and caring for the community they live in. There has to be a balance however. When the first thing somebody says is, "I can save 15 to 17% on the job doing it myself", I have to question if the first thing on his mind is the success of the project, or the potential savings involved. Sometimes, the thought of that "savings" blinds reason.
Again, my intent isn't to knock your experiences or to pass judgement on your opinions. I am TRULY happy that your experiences have been rewarding to the point that you would recomend that someone else try their hand at it. As long as the one taking the advice is willing to do all his "home" work, all we can provide is our points of view to try and guide him.
I appologize if I offended you with the tone of my previous post. There are days when I hear too many things that kind of dig at me (in real life) and sometimes I just need to respond. Your post worked for me!
LOL!
Another such company is Presidential Homes.
From see there ads in the local paper and looking at there web pages what they help is with things like scheduling and helping find subs. Another thing is that they advertise that they have construction money.
But I think that you are right about ones that are just painting or sweeping up.
They don't use the phrase, "saving money", but rather building in equity.
The ones that they have written up are ones that have done a fair amount of the work themselfs. But most not the amount that self-builders like yourself do.
No, mathman has read and appreciated all the replies. The bottom line is GCing your own home is not somthing to take lightly (I had no intention to do that), but with time and flexiablity on your side it's possible. Honestly, I can't believe most subs would walk from a project ($) just because it's a homeowner acting as a GC. If they do, they probably weren't someone I wanted working with me anyway. If someone does good by me, I'll pay them good money and talk them up to anyone that will listen, but if you suck you can bet you'll hear about it. I'm not too worried about banks either. My money is as green as the next guys and if they don't want it then they can kiss my a**. As one of posts said, if I make enough to afford a $350k house I can afford to hire a GC. Maybe I can afford a $350k house because I don't spend money when I don't have to. The bottom line is that people need to understand GCing isn't for everyone and it's hard work.
thanks to all!!!
Mathman6 my freind
I'm a trim carpenter and have worked for many homeowner/GC in my time & have seen many many wasted dollars & projects that turned out less than good. When I think back to these projects my head spins. As the trim carpenter I always turned into the general & when bidding take this into consideration & pad the heck out of it & it still never seems to be enough. 3 to 3.5K is alot of money to risk. be careful.
PJE
I hear you! I have in no way, shape or form decided what to do. Honestly, if $ was no object, I wouldn't even consider being my own GC. I have a lot of respect for the trades, they are nowhere as easy as I think most homeowners believe them to bee. My thoughts were that if I can deal with a flexible time line and the stress of when things go wrong, then maybe I can save a little money and learn somthing at the same time. Honestly, I'm a money manager by profession, but I've always wanted to do something/make a living with my hands (no jokes please!!).
I learned about housebuilding when I was a teenager, helping build a family summer house over three summers, from the ground up to the finish. We hired help for some of the heavy or specialty work, but did the rest ourselves. After engineering school I worked quite a few years in industrial and heavy construction, in the field. So my long-ago experiences gave me a basis. Before I self-contracted my first house, I spent all my spare time, over about two years, hanging out at lumberyards and at house jobsites, finding out about people, techniques, materials, and scheduling sequences. Residential was a lot different from the big stuff. A lot looser, somewhat simpler, and a whole bunch more regionalized, as far as practices went. Your local library should have a wealth of information about this. Roll up your sleeves, and begin.