Hey Folks,
Just fishing for some opinions on a little situation I have. I was contracted to completely gut and remodel a house in the beginning of April. I spelled out exactly what was to be done in my contract and got it signed. Since the project involved moving the kitchen across the house, I needed to hire a plumber. This house is in a very small town in Wyoming ( Not one single traffic light ) and I took the recommendation of the local lumber yard for a plumber. I hired him to do all rough and trim. No problems.
During the course of my work, the existing sewer line backed up one time before I demoed all of the existing plumbing. I called my plumber and he snaked the line, no problems yet. I informed the owners that I thought it would be a good idea to have my plumber run his camera down the sewer line to check for blockages and they agreed. Plumber run camera line down and finds broken line at main full of roots etc. I tell him to go ahead and fix line, after checking with owners. He fixes the line and gives me the tape to look at. Not the most entertaining movie I have ever watched but probably the only time Ill see the inside of a sewer line. The tape shows the line is clear and sound from the basement toilet to the main. This was two weeks ago. We have used the stool and a sink while trying to finish up, no problems. BTW this house is 150 miles from my town and the owners.
Anyway, last weekend we were installing concrete counters and trying to wrap up the kitchen plumbing, and the owners were moving there furniture in. I know that was a mistake to start with, but my hands were full. The owners did about 4 loads of laundry in their newly relocated washing machine that drains into an existing 2″ copper line from the previous laundry and pretty soon the sewer starts to back up in the furnace room floor drain and through the basement toilet. Of course carpet has been laid and is now soaking wet. We suck water out and put fans on it hoping to salvage it.
Anyway the owner is upset and now I need to figure out whose responsible. My contract did not include any below grade sewer line work and I saw the tape of the clear line. My only guess is that when the Washer was draining into the existing line, that line must have had some debris in it that was flushed into the sewer line and caused the backup. I was not contracted to inspect all of the lines in the house, as a matter of fact we removed every supply and drain line except this one so everything else is new. They had an inspection done before they closed but he didn’t inspect the plumbing because the water was off. Anyway, if I have to replace that carpet, who should pay for it? Someone told me not to back up my plumber and make it his problem, but I disagree. He was hired to do a specific job, and has completed it. What happened really wasn’t anyones fault, except maybe the Home Inspector who should have inspected the plumbing. For 600 dollars I would have. As a GC I have been taught that I have a responsibility to my subs, as long as they are meeting the requirements of their subcontract. The Architect would serve as the owners agent, but there is not an Architect in this case.
The owners are extremely nice and aren’t blaming me, but before I get paid this issue needs resolved, and I want to be fair. Any Ideas?
TIA
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
Replies
man what a problem it does not sound like your fault at al if you did not work on below ground pipes except to have them cleared how far did that camera go and I hope you have the tape clearing the line might have clogged things further down after four loads of laundry the pipes filled or as you say there could have been some debris in the washer depending on how much water got on that carpet it is probably shot and will always smell I hope your customer can understand this and you get paid here in california we would have to go to mediation and I think you would prevail do what you can help them clean up but make sure you get paid for your work
good luck
the village handyman
I am not a pro in this area so take way I say with a grain or bucket of salt.
However, you indicated what was the problem and how it was solved. Where was the clog and what did it take to fix it?
It might be in the city mains and you would not have have clean hands,so to say.
Or the plumber might not have gone quit far enough?
Ah, praise be that I'm on my own septic system that I designed and installed myself 33 years ago - never been pumped but did shovel celluose upper layer out myself once.
What's surprising about this post is only slight mention is made of the sewer system adequacy in a no-stoplight town. From our local media, I know Seattle Metro needs $40 month in sewer/water charges from a near million homeowners to keep the salmon in the Sound happy with multi-billion dollar processing plants. 99.9% sure the town does not have a "sewer pig".
Big <G> here, but not to slight original poster. Most any 'progressive' town would likely install a stop light to "raise revenue" before maintaining the sewer system, so what does that say?
Cole that's a tough one, it sort of depends on what caused the back up. However since this drain was untested by the owners prior to your involvement it sounds more like a homeowner problem and their insurance should take care replacing the carpet. This could even go back to the sellers, if it can be proven the problem existed under their ownership, that they failed to reveal the problem in a seller's disclosure.
I am a plumber in CO. I have a couple of things I want to mention.
1. I would work for you anyday! I hate working for most GCs but I can tell you are the kind I would love to work for.
2. This is a tough one. While you did an excellant job of explaining all this the bottom line is it is impossible to know exactly what happened.
3. I would urge you to explore the possiblity of getting insurance to cover this.
4. What if you, the plumber, and the client went to a lawyer together, sat down with him and explain the situation, show him the tape, etc. and ask him for advice. It would have to be a joint thing, not a you vs. them issue. He might have some great advice that would turn this into a win-win-win situation. Be very careful with this. But it has worked for others. You MUST make sure all parties understand that this is not "going to a lawyer" but going to a legal issues expert who can help you all find the best solution TOGETHER!
5. If it ends up the client is wholly responsible I would suggest helping them out with it anyways... like pay 25% or whatever. In a small town area like yours that would be some of the cheapest advertising you could buy. Ask the plumber if he wants to do the same for the same reason. You could end up with an awesome working partnership with him and have the client do some major word of mouth advertising for you both.
Please let us know the final outcome.
I like the idea of you, the owners and plumber setting down with an arbitrator. Maybe an arbitrator other than lawyer could be found. Someone smart enouth to suggest splitting the baby in half?
Thanks everyone for your input. To follow up, I think we are going to be OK. We pulled up the carpet downstairs to assess the damage, and found it fairly minimal. The bathroom and part of two bedrooms got wet. We had put fans on it and the carpet itself came completely dry. I pulled the padding up that was wet and let the fans continue to run. Fortunately, the plumbers brother knows something about laying carpet, and will relay the carpet for us. Thank god the only water in that sewer line was water from the washing machine, or I don't think that carpet could be salvaged. It didn't stain at all, so we will relay it and steam clean it. I believe this will remedy the problem, and if the cost to relay the carpet is not to steep, and it shouldn't be, I'll just cover it in the interest of maintaining a working relationship with these people.
Again, thanks for your input. It seems like issues like this can bring a wide array of opinions and having a wealth of knowledge to draw from, like this forum provides is really helpful.
By the way, Wet Head Warrior, where are you in Colorado? I am in Fort Collins, but this project is in Saratoga, Wy.
Thanks again,
Cole
Cole Dean
Dean Contracting
If for some reason someone does have to cough up money.....I'd go thru their homeowners policy.....and if their's is like mine.......use the words.....WATER DAMAGE.....NOT........FLOODED!
My policy will fully cover "water damage".......but not one cent is paid out if the term "Flood" is used! Let them know in advance if they have to make that call. Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
I find it interesting how one word can make this difference. I also find it interesting how I can manipulate insurance companies into doing what they should do without violating my sense of ethics by using the correct words...
what's even more interresting......my ins. agent is the one who spelled this out for us! Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
Jeff
I think that she is just doing her job, probably better than most, and spelling out what is in the policy.
Mine very clearing spells out causes for water damage are and are not covered.
None of them covers external rising water (flooding) that is covered by separate flood insurance.
Delta/Montrose area.
I went to a Franklin Covey class in Ft. Collins last October.... drove over after working until midnight.... slept 45 minutes in my van and went in... best thing I did in a long time...
Obviously this is another topic.
But I cannot agree more with Wet Head (imagine that!) about the Franklin Covey seminars.
If any of you guys read this and are in business (or have a busy schedule of any type), this is a must for business development. It will improve your productivity, your free time, your profitability, and most of all, your mental health.
And send your foremen / supervisors too.
Truth is truth.... even if I speak it huh?