I would appreciate some thoughts on how best to evaluate who owes what in a very complicated hardwood flooring situation. My clients (I’m an architect) insisted on a very expensive prefinished floor material. The installer did a so-so job on the floor that they’re okay with, but he was a little sloppy on the stairs, which have winders in a U-shape.
Most of the problems are due to lack of tight joints, slight difference in thickness between nosings and treads, and a couple of out of plumb risers. This was all done with prefinished materials, which the owner purchased directly and provided. (Personally, I think that prefinished was a poor choice for the stairs, but I was not consulted in this decision.)
Anyway, the owners are VERY unhappy, and won’t let the original installer back in the house. They have found a high-quality finisher who can take everything apart and redo the stairs, probably for $4K or so, however, they want the GC to pay for it. The GC, who provided the original installer for $7K for the ENTIRE house installation, including the stairs, thinks maybe $750 max should take care of the problem (a couple of man-days at $350 plus $50 materials), but meanwhile is having his final payment withheld. He’s also ticked that he worked hard to save the client money at every turn, and is now being expected to fund something that was decided against his recommendations. (He didn’t want prefinished for the stairs.) The customers are very happy otherwise on this $350K remodel, but both sides have dug in their heels and are looking to me to facilitate some resolution. I should also mention that this GC is not the world’s best business person, and made a very slim (if any) profit on this job, so any payment from him will likely come out of his food on the table. Not that it should be a factor in a decision, but it means that he doesn’t have much of a cushion to deal with these problems. He also is adament that the owners are being unreasonably picky and that for the price his installer charged, they got a heck of a deal and doesn’t feel comfortable going back to his installer to pay for a new stair.
My original spec was for standard jobsite-finished hardwood flooring, so I don’t have anything to fall back on here. My own perspective is that the problem is as much the Owner’s poor choice of materials for this specific application as much as sloppy installation. However, the installer probably should have declined to do the stairs in the first place, but it’s done now.
Any thoughts on strategies for untangling this mess? Thanks!
Richard
Edited 5/15/2003 5:32:52 PM ET by Richard
Replies
Well, I get to untangle periodically. Here's my read. The sub is responsible for the installation. How it got done, how it looks, how it fits. The owner is responsible for the materials, since they picked out and provided. If the sub had qualms with the quality, the time to discuss that was before things got cut and nailed; that time has long past. The GC has the responsiblity to make everyone happy and the job run efficient, on schedule, etc., but he/she is almost moot here. The sub & owner caused it, the sub & owner should fix it. The owners don't trust the sub and want you to mediate. Not your job, but I'd do it anyway. Make a call based on what you see, what you know, and what you think is right. If the materials were a bad pick, say so, but I think here I'd award the majority of the blame on the original installer. He fixes his work or pays to have it fixed. If you think it's 50/50, tell both sides "this is my decision. It will be fixed. This is who will fix it, this is who pays what portion."
Side note but relevant, good throne reading is Blanchards Situational Leadership model. You're in S1 now. Not much support, a lot of directions, you're telling people how it's going to be and not proffering much in the way of answering why. Granted, fine line there, you're not in the military and not trying to make everyone mad (you'll infuriate someone, be right and live with it). They don't have to fall in love with the call, just respect that its reasonable. But that's my 2 cents. Make a call, run with it. If you decide you ARE the authority, since the owner has already decided that on their own, you can pretty much run with it.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Way to go, RW. Add to my reading list, you ####. {G} This Blanchard book sounds good.
Definitely love this forum for the outside-the-box info I get from others. Thanks!
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Side note, just do a search. The model is covered in a number of books, I'm not referring to any specific one. Honestly, if you grasp the stuff, it kind of takes some of the headache out of your hands. Have a trim carp who's a complete whiz kid? It'll guide you on how to make you both happy. The stair guy who porked the pooch? Think I covered it. Good stuff. Worthwhile for anyone who finds themselves in the management shoes, regularly or periodically. Used to teach a leadership class focused on the princples. Enjoyed that a lot."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Not too many people read Blanchards. Did it help?
arrrrghhhhhh.....
i think RW pretty well sums it up....
just to add.. it would seem that $750 - $1000 would put them back at the starting gate..
the $4K guy is not the same animal... not the same spec...they should be on the hook for the UPGRADE.. the original sub should kick in for being a putz and going ahead with something he couldn't deliver..
but the pre-finished put the owners in a lower category of quality...
i love pre-finished, but i know the limitations
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have no idea who's right and wrong, and without seeing it I have no idea on a fix, BUT...........
Any time I see a statement like this.....
He also is adament that the owners are being unreasonably picky and that for the price his installer charged, they got a heck of a deal and doesn't feel comfortable going back to his installer to pay for a new stair.
I get pissed. "You got a good deal" is no excuse for a lousy job.
Is this a case of the stairs were last, after the installer realized he was losing his a$$?
"You got a good deal" is no excuse.
Did anyone ask the owners if they were willing to accept a poor job in exchange for cheap?
Joe H
Edited 5/16/2003 12:46:38 AM ET by JoeH
Thanks, all, for these comments. I agree that a "good deal" is no excuse for lousy work. As Mike mentioned, though, at some point the GC or original sub would be paying for an *upgrade* with a higher end finisher, and I'm having a hard time finding a good way to set a reasonable dividing line for that.
Richard
There is a reason ( many reasons actually ) for hiring a general contractor and an architect to oversee your project. When these folks jumped outsiode the box to reject the advice of all professionals involved, they became their own GCs and assumed the risk that went with it.
They need to foot the cost of re-doing the stairs, if that is what they want.
The fact they are refusing to allow the GC or trim man in to patch things up is a double whammy against them, IMO. If I screw something up, I will make it right, one way or another, but if they deny me that opportunity, they have bought it as is.
Score another point against them when they bought the materials. That is what the general is responsible for. One of their complaints is that the nosings and treads are differing thicknesses. Well they are the ones who provided it that way. That's like ordering steak and scallops and then complaining that you don't like scallops for dinner.
Excellence is its own reward!
"He also is adament that the owners are being unreasonably picky and that for the price his installer charged, they got a heck of a deal"
If someone said that to me when I'm looking at a crummy job, I'd want my own installer too, upgrade or not. Did he tell them up front that they were getting the cheapest bid and the quality of the job would reflect that?
I'm just a homeowner, but I'm curious as to whether the GC or original installer got it in writing that they were against the prefinished material on the stairs? Perhaps a document which states that work using the wrong materials for the job could not be warranteed? If so, I'd say this is all the customer's problem. If not, then the customers have the right to get a decent job done with the materials - but they should allow the GC to make it right, and he should be willing to do so.
Unless the GC has been negligent about fixing the problem (like s/he said - that's what you paid for, that's what you get, tough luck to you, and it sounds like he might have said just that), the GC is responsible for fixing it, not an outside third party. To me that means he finds an installer and comes in and does the job at the cost that he determines will be required.
Not letting the original installer back into the house to fix his mistakes sounds like they have more of a problem with him than just the quality of the work. That being the case, perhaps a compromise would be for the GC to provide another installer to fix the mistakes at the costs he works out with that installer. It's up to him whether he wants to take that out of pay to the original installer.
Boy this seems interesting. . .
No one asked just what the installer installed on these stairs. Are any of “us†to assume he laid a pre-finished plank flooring on top of the treads? That sounds like a winner right off the bat. How did the “risers†get “out of plumb� Was pre-finished used there also?
This whole think sounds like it was a disaster waiting to happen and everyone involved just let it happen, it sounds more so like the client is just looking to screw some one out of their money.
The simple call here is to let the GC bring back the installer to repair the work (if it truly is that bad) under the watchful eye of the GC who will be under the watchful eye of you and both of you will make sure the installer does what is needed.
If the owner doesn’t agree to this then they would pay for every thing just like Piffin said.
Good job Piff.
Thanks Joe. I wasn't about to excuse poor workmanship but the way I read this, the owners bought outside the box and then pushed their demands on the GC and trim guy.
probably a " We know it will work because we saw it done this way on TV. If you are any kind of carpenter, you will be able to do what we say."
now they want to off the blame on the poor GC who avised against it inthe first place but tried to accomadate them. He probably had an inkling that he was going to lose either way. now his back hairs are up and he sayus, "I ain't gonna be pushed by those SOBs any more!"
They probably read his mind when he was thinking about shoving those treads where the sun don't shine and that's why they don't want him back in the house - or like you said, they are just out to screw someone because they darn sure won't admit that they made a mistake..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm thinking legally the guy that supposedly screwed it up has to be offered the chance to make it right on his own dime...and within a reasonable time. Can't expect the guy to drop the next job and rush right over.
But these people said he ain't allowed back in....which pretty much wipes his hands clean of this deal.
Now it's simple a question of how far the GC wants to bend over backwards for these people....legally pushed or not.
A big remodel might sound like big bucks to most..unless ya do big remodels everyday...then it's just another job.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I hope R does keep us imnformed of this outcome.
I felt kind of lonely there at the first few replies.
"A big remodel might sound like big bucks to most..unless ya do big remodels everyday...then it's just another job. "
I'm always getting people who want to hold something out - implying that if I go along on this item, then they'll do me the favor of letting me work for them again - and lose even more money.
Yeah, Right! As if I haven't already tossed them ...I don't need repeat business of that kind. last job I walked away from was before I got past estimate negotiations when they started pulling that stunt, "If you do this right for us, we'll have a lot of other work for you and we know other people...".
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
"If you do this right for us, we'll have a lot of other work for you and we know other people..."
Mr Client, you have that backwards. You’ll pay full price the first time and when you give me more work, I’d be more then happy to see what I can do for you. Oh, and tell all your friends I said thanks.
If I had a buck for every client who said that to me; I’d be on my yacht instead of typing this. . . . .
View Image
Joe,
I had a client say that line to me just last week. I guess maybe I used to be half stunned and half insulted by their crudeness, now I just try to keep a straight face and a closed mouth. <G>
Thank you for your comment on this. It really made my morning. I'll be chuckling to myself all day trying to figure out what my version of this is going to be next time a potential client tries to dangle the next job out as an incentive.
DRC
"If I had a buck for every client who said that to me; I’d be on my yacht instead of typing this. . . . ."
No kidding Joe.
Very good points....
But where is the the manufacture's Rep?This stuff was pre-finished and somehow risers where out of plumb?
See what the rep says....
I agree with the Owner's aquiring a liking to eating this deal. As earlier stated, by setting the terms of how it's gonna shake out, the Owners have assumed the role of G.C.
The G. C. needs to finish the rest of the work and move on......
I'm with you on that one Joe.
Regarding selective memory, I've found that documentation is the key to profitable contracting. It is job 1.
When a customer makes a big dollar mistake, 99% of the time they will try and find someone to pay for it. I was probably like that myself many years ago. Its just to tempting. Usually when the mistake is found they say something like, that isn't what we wanted, we're going to have to try and resolve this. That means the crosshairs are on you and you better have the proper documentation and contract language.
Or, bye-bye money.
Mike couldn't have said it better, I like prefinished in a lot of remodeling projects, sanded in place in new construction, and solid stock on stairs. Prefinished does have its limitations.Tom
Hey...........ain't you the same feller what posted this to me just a couple of days ago <G>
"I get a lot of the demanding, hard to please customers that nobody else wants. But when you satisfy one of them, they have an abundance of high paying references for you."
(I be snickerin'......well, maybe just a little) :-)
Edit: Okay, I figured I better jump back in here lest you get the wrong impression. My intended humorous point being that there are hard to please customers that a guy sometimes is better off not pleasing...depending of course upon just what it takes to please them. I've found that when you run into one of those "whittle ya down" or "I'll dictate everything to you" type (despite the fact that you're the one with the experience), the rest of the crowd they hang with has a better than average chance of subscribing to the same practices. Birds of a feather and all that. When fishin', there's those I keep......and those that I throw back..... no matter the species. Sounds like it's the same for you, too.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 5/20/2003 11:48:25 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
I saw the humopur and recognized the apparent conflict in my statements even as I was typing it but you have already explained very well that it depends on the type of customer. I will go all day to satisfy the one who really appreciates my efforts but the ones who want me to do the impossible with nothing and do it in two days less than it takes is going to see less and less of me until eventually, I'm nothing more than a distant memory....
Excellence is its own reward!
It's been awhile, but I thought I'd let you guys hear the end (I hope) of the story.
1) I got the Owner to release all of the final payment, excepting $4K until the mess was settled, to the Contractor.
2) The Owner agreed to accept whatever I felt was a fair settlement. (He thought around $4K, the Contractor thought around $1K).
3) I met with another flooring sub who estimated the cost to sand and refinish the stair at $1200, which he felt would correct the bulk of problems adequately. We discovered about 5 nosings that were wobbly. I added $100/nosing for repair and/or replacement ($500), plus $250 for re-painting and touch-ups, plus $250 for another area in the kitchen that had been screwed up and not noticed before. Both the Owner and the contractor have accepted the $2200 settlement and the Owner will be releasing the balance of $1800 to the contractor. (These numbers might seem high to those not in California.)
Whew! It's nice to be done with this project. Thanks for all of your comments.
Richard
And thank you for sharing this story. It's probably more common than any of us would like to believe.
Sounds like you did a good job on this one.
DRC
Nicely handled. Tackle peace in the Middle East next...you seem to be a diplomat.
Thanks for the update.
Do you think the owners will actually have that work doen as estimated or go with their four grand man?.
Excellence is its own reward!
piffin:
My guess is they'll go with the cheaper guy and the wife will _still_ be mildly unhappy at the end of it. But it won't be my problem at that point. <g>
The ironic aspect of all of this is that they will have a Phase 2 (one bedroom addition) in a year that they are planning to build which they had to defer to stay under a Planning Dept. limitation (long story) and they were counting on this contractor to build it. Because they focused on this one flooring issue, the contractor won't work for them in the future (he's told me but not the Owner) and the Owner likely will end up paying thousands more for someone else.
Richard
I understand. I've been that builder, figuratively speaking. Too bad what small things small people can focus on..
Excellence is its own reward!
piffin,
Never mind which guy they will use, now that they have the $ concession, don't you think those stairs look better already? :-)
skipj
I wonder what the installer has to say about all this. Prefinished flooring is easy to install as flooring. It was no surprise that that part of the job went well. If it was typical hardwood strip flooring say 2-3/4" x 3/4" t&g, random lengths with matching ends then the installer would have to make nosing out of the pieces and match the prefinished stain. After ripping and jointing the piece and making a roundover the finished piece is only 2-3/8" wide. The narrow strips often used for flooring because they make a nice stable floor are a nosing problem waiting to happen. A piece that narrow is going to want to rock if the nosing is more than 3/4" Perhaps the flooring was wider. THere would still be other problems. For the U shaped winders the installer might have to taper some pieces and make a new t&g joint or a spline.I can see thickness problems because you can't sand the prefinished stuff to smooth the joints. Match the microbevel on the tapered pieces and finish before installing. Perhaps the GC did not forsee some of the problems . THe client is liable for a percentage of the blame for choosing the material over objections. From what little info there is I would say the liability is 50/50 client/GC.We may be slow, But we're expensive.
Most of the problems are due to lack of tight joints, slight difference in thickness between nosings and treads, and a couple of out of plumb risers.
The difference is height/thickness is the nature of the material, the lack of tight joints is as well.
Did the installer have a duty to advise the client? Did he/she ever meet the client?
Is the $4K rescue guy going to "make things right" with the same materials. or something else. Its real easy for one "craftsman" to dis the work of someone who went before him, and then achieve different results with different materials.
You mention the clients went against your advise on the stair material. They're responsible, in my opinion.
_______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
I'd have to fall in with Piffin and Joe on this one.
As a GC, one of the brightest warning flags (more of a WP flare, actually) is owner-supplied anything.
I have a contract clause that says I provide no warranty whatsoever on owner-supplied materials and that these materials are installed entirely at the owners risk.
Trying to determine who is at fault now is sort of like trying to decide if Thomas Jefferson was a bad guy for owning slaves. To be fair and honest, ya gotta see it from the perspective of everyone making the decisions on the basis of the information they had available at the time they were making the decision.
In my experience, the homeowner simply thinks they are saving money by supplying anything, especially at Home Depot. I can talk until I'm exhausted about why this isn't the case, they hear nothing once they've smelled blood (or money as the case may be).
Then when it turns out that I was right (it's probably going to be more expensive, actually), then it's my fault? Sorry, I don't buy it.
But that doesn't appear to be the case, here. I can't imagine why they insisted on this expensive pre-finished product when presumably you, the GC, and the sub all expressed some concern. If that is indeed the case, I'd say this is the homeowner's problem.
In the sub's defense, (apropos of my Jefferson reference above), once you have agreed to do something, especially in the context of a construction schedule and a long-term performance based relationship with a builder, it is tough to say no and even tougher to initiate an adversarial relationship by getting CYA paper signed. Most subs really do want to do good work and will generally do the best they can with what they've got. It sounds to me like that's what happened here.
I don't envy your position a bit. Good luck.
DRC
Richard,
An afterthought;
I hope the tone of my previous post was generally supportive. I don't think this is anyone's problem but the homeowner. If you advised the client of your own concern and the concern expressed by tradesmen, and they then proceeded anyway, you did your part.
If my doctor tells me to quit smoking and lose weight and I don't do what he says, is my early demise due to his professional negligence?
The problem you described is not uncommon. The clients see it on TV or on the magazine rack at the checkout stand and it looks so easy.
We spend our lifetimes learning this art, trade, and profession. If we do our best and the client thinks they know better, they can assume the risk, too.
DRC
Dave and others,
Thanks, these are all good comments, and really do help to clarify my own thinking about this, and your thoughts are pretty much in line with my own.
I think the big lesson here is that there is never enough paperwork. If the GC had expressed some concerns in writing early in the process, even in a simple e-mail to the client (with a cc: to me), this situation would not have been as big an issue. Unfortunately, although these concerns WERE expressed by the GC (I believe him), it was only verbal and I wasn't there, and the client apparently has a highly selective memory.
Also, bending over to try save your customers money can be a thankless proposition, especially if quality is a related issue, and ESPECIALLY if it involves letting the customer buy their own products. (As an architect, I'm fine with a "just say no" policy by the GC. In fact, I prefer it. It makes MY job easier.)
Hopefully this issue will get resolved soon, and I'll let you folks know how it turns out. Thanks again.
Richard
Richard,
I agree with you on every point in your last post.
As you might have guessed, I struggle with this issue regularly enough, too. I think I'll print this discussion, review it, and try to figure out how I can use what we have discussed here to keep this situation from happening again.
I hope this has been helpful for you, it certainly has for me. Please do let us know how this turns out.
DRC
As the architect for the project, it would be your responsibility to make decisions as to the quality of the work and materials.
If the work does not meet your approvals, (not the homeowner's), you can insist that the work be redone. But you must give the original installer that chance. Once he is denied that chance, he is no longer responsible.
If you decide that the materials are defective or inferior, the owner can live with it or pay for new material AND installation.
If the original installer blaims the material, then disassemble it and inspect. The loser pays.
In any respect, you as the architect, AIA or not, should have a clause in your contract that refers to mediation. If you do not, and the GC does not, then we will see you all in court...
CYA now, not later.
Sounds like the GC's not the most sophisticated fellow to get into this mess. 1st, between the GC and the installer any limitations to the material or to even do the work on this basis, should have been discussed with the owner. The owner is not a pro, and should have been warned about his choice and it's limitations.
However, someone, probably you as the architect of record, needs to make a call. The installer and inturn the GC has the opportunity to make it right. This may require the GC to get a 2nd installer. If the 1st installer is not capable, it would be a total disaster to allow him to further screw up the problem.
If the owner is not agreeable to allowing the GC an opportunity to fix the problem, then tell them it's their responsibility, pay the GC, pay for the fix they want and move on.
From a practical side, I would affix a reasonable number to this situation, tell the owner he is getting a credit, get the GC paid, and out of the loop, then allow the owner to get the problem fixed at what ever cost it takes, reasonable or unreasonable.
Edited 5/20/2003 10:03:15 AM ET by Russ
" From a practical side, I would affix a reasonable number to this situation, tell the owner he is getting a credit, get the GC paid, and out of the loop, then allow the owner to get the problem fixed at what ever cost it takes, reasonable or unreasonable."
And as the GC I would accept this with a smile no matter what I might be thinking. It is a lot better than the alternative of waiting for and fighting over the final payment. If I haven't made a profit of a lot more than $4k on the job, that is a whole nother problem.