I’m getting ready to order the material for a basement remodel.
In the past, I have always used p.t. for my bottom plates (soles).
My question – is there an alternative to using p.t. for my soles? Perhaps a bitumen membrane between the sole and the concrete?
Also, My galvy Hilti powder actuated fasteners are fine for p.t. lumber, but what about nailing the studs to the sole? I use Paslode paper strips for my framing nails. Will these corrode in the p.t. lumber?
—
and one final question – I’m sure the basement floor isn’t perfectly level, and I need the top plate to be pretty tight to the floor joists.
Is there a tip or trick to laying out stud heights on an uneven floor down the length of a wall?
Replies
Lotta Qs there
As long as the sill wood is not in direct contact with the crete, many jurisdictions will allow other lumber. The I&W, a metal strip, or just a couple plies of 30# tarpapr can suffice, but check with your local inspector first.
SS nails are available for the Paslode and generic ones can work too. I've used both.
Here is what I do to frame in basements - I use PL Premium to glue down the PT bottom plates in place, weighted down overnight. They are then welded to the crete.
Then I use the laser to nail up top plates above.
Then I platform frame the walls to the shortest measurement, les an eighth of an inch. Then stand them in place and insert between top and bottom plates. You end up with a double top and bottom, and use shims between the two bottom plates to tighten the walls in place, then nail them off.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
<< Here is what I do to frame in basements... >>
I'm glad you posted this Paul - I was thinking of trying the same technique on my next basement job, but wasn't sure if it would be too outlandish. Methinks it would make things run a lot smoother to have top and bottom plates in place and an entire wall to go between (as opposed to cutting each infill stud to the exact length).
So you don't level the top or bottom plates when you install them? You just level the "infill wall" from the bottom instead?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
right
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Piff,
What kind/model/make of laser do you use for this application? I like your idea. I have a basement laid on for Feb. Think I'll try your technique. Coupla bucks in lumber but so what?
Thanks for a great idea! KD
Mine is a LevelLite I bought back when the kit was $600. Don't know what they are down to now, but the PLS ones do the same functions for a lot less, I think.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How much weight do you put on those PT bottom plates overnight?
just enough to hold them in place. Couple of crete blocks, a bag or so of crete mix, durabond or whatever works - a sandbag at each end, few sticks of lumber, the tool box Just waht ever is handy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
One reason I glue down PT plates is that I often am working over radiant in slab heat.
If that is not your situation, you probably want to use your PAF to shoot them down, and then you could use a separator to allow you reglar framing lumber.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
in a basement, you could use Borate treated material instead of ACQ.. that will eliminate a lot of the corrosion problem..
i'd stick to the PT treated bottom member though.. i wouldn't count on the membrane to protect your wood.. basements are too unpredictableMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I thought borate was for bugs and not rot resistance... wouldn't the borate treated lumber still absorb moisture through the concrete? Or am I off base?
borate is also for rot resistance... it doesn't bind in the wood as well as the more common chmicals , so it tends to leach out in soil contact or weathering cinditions like decks....
but for interior applications, it's greatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
borate makes things unfriendly for fungi also.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
would you use borate for an exterior wall sill plate?
since it is going to be protected and theoretically, dry.... you bet
this ACQ treatment gives me the willies... the stuff is so aggressively corrosive
borate is just not readily available.. last time i got some , it was a special order that had been refused...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/20/2006 7:37 am ET by MikeSmith
willies.... me too.
We've got plans to build a new house in the not too distant future with a wrap around porch with T&G decking, nice columns, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with a composite T&G decking (got a link to one here somewhere) but the joists & rims and all other sturcutural wood in the past would've been CCA. Replacing the deck strucutre after 10 years is not something I want to do.
Another q... can you paint borate treated lumber? I ask since the rims and support structure of the wrap around will all get painted.
I like to build for low maintenance and a long life of the product and ACQ doesn't seem to fit into that.
for a deck i'd stick to the ACQ, but i'd use only SS hangers & fastenersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"can you paint borate treated lumber? "Yes
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Borate (Sodium Borate, Borax) was the big thing in log homes awhile back. People thought it was the cure for everything from rot to insect infestation. There are even a few companies 'pressure treating' their logs with borate.While borate is an extremely effective treatment to help reduce moisture, its one major drawback is that it gets 'used up' as it does its job.We've often used Borate rods (Impel Rods) counter-sunk into log ends to help stave off potential rot problems.Borate migrates to the areas of moisture and does infuse throughout the wood.However, on an exterior sill plate, where there may be continued and long-term exposure to moisture, I'm not sure that borate is the best solution. I believe the borate would actually leach toward the area with the greatest amount of moisture - usually the block or concrete.I have my own (completely unbased and unproven)views on borate and I probably wouldn't use it in an area where it could be leached into an interior space.(not trying to start an argument here - just my own personal opinions. I have used an absolute ton of the stuff over the past 12 years though!)
Edited 12/20/2006 7:49 am ET by twofingers
not to argue - but for discussion and consideration -I'm not sure how a sill would be subjuect to continual and repeated wetting, even on a log home. how would that happen?on borate movement - the companies that make and sell Impel rods and other treatments reference studies from Universities explaining how th eborates work in rod for. It does not move TO the wet areas, but the other way. Water and moisture entering the wood near a rod picks up the boron and carries it as it travels by the wicking action to the drier areas. Any placed the water moves, the boron moves also. Since water moves from wet to dry just as heat moves from warm to cold, the boron moves from wet to dry areas.Essentially the reason local placement of rods works almost as effectively as full pressure injection is that anywhere water goes, the boron goes too.So IF the sill were to suffer repeated and continual wetting, boron treatment would be insufficient.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It was my understanding that p.t. sills are used because of the condensation between concrete / mortar and wood?Much in the same way that mortar chinking in log homes leads to rot?That condensation / moisture was the "continual and repeated" moisture I was referring to.Perhaps I don't understand why we use p.t. lumber against concrete block and steel?I definitely should have worded my borate post differently. I've had many discussions with the manufacturers, reps and even the tech guys about borate. It is my belief that water goes into the wood, and then heads right back out towards the sun. And many times the borate goes right along with it. I've seen the powdery coating on the logs many times to prove it ;)I just think that in areas where moisture is a real concern, unless you are going to p.t. the wood with borate, stronger measures need to be taken to protect the wood!Hey piffin - thanks for the tip on "framing a basement." I started today and it worked like a charm!
You are absolutely right that this is th ereason for separating wood from contact with crete, but I don't think that this moisture dampening is enough to make th eborates migrate enough to be a concern. I don't know if there are studies comleted on it though.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just used some of the new pretty borate boards for my sills.The tag stapled on the end said...DO NOT EXPOSE TO MOISTURE.
Even during storage, and espescially after installation.I don't know all the details, but that is what the tag said.These went on top of my basement wall, well above grade, and on sill seal, so I'm not so concerned about my situation, but I hear others equating borate with CCA/ACQ>
Right - I would not use it for deck joists with acontinual watering
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I believe I would based on what I know at this minute. Theoeticly, borates canbe leached out into the soil but it takes water moving though to leach it out. I'd have a hard time imagining that.Now, for fence posts - I'd probably stay with the CCA edit - I mean ACQ
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 12/20/2006 6:34 pm ET by Piffin
Most of lumber here in Hawaii is borate treated. It is paintable.
Most is copper borate so rusts nails quick HD galv or SS is what I use and usually stick to Maze nails for galv. ZMax hardware where needed.__________________________
Judo Chop!
Borate is also a fungaside - although I too was not aware that it prevented rot. Personally, I've never seen borate treated lumber for sale though. I've been having my pest control people spray a product called Boracare in new houses that are slab on grade - although I'm still using PT bottom plates.
Looks like Piff and Mike have pretty well covered it.
One other point just for your info - Paslode does make a nail that is rated for treated that isn't stainless and less expensive.
Foam sill seal also is accepted in some places to separate the concrete from a non treated sole plate.
Another thing I've done is to put down a treated sole plate with tapcons and then use approved deck screws to attach another untreated plate to that - then regular fasteners from there on up.
Bitumen membrane between the concrete and the bottom plate is perfectly acceptable and eliminates many problems. These problems include, crooked plates, off-width plates, high moisture plates that later shrink and fastener issues. Fasteners include the j-bolts and the sheathing fasteners, not just the stud fasteners.
Basements are tricky devils to moisture manage. PT or borate treated lumber is not a strategy for moisture management but rather a contingency plan. Borate treated wood can aid in the battle against termites, but as with pt plates, if you need them, you may have bigger problems. It is better to spend your time and money on implementing proper moisture management strategies, (bitumen membrane) rather than on using moisture tolerant materials.
The techniques previously described may have answered the last question you posted--what to do with concrete floors that are not level. In the Denver area we have bentonite soil. If you don't know about bentonite it is expansive. It swells. So expansive soil is also expensive. Around here you must build basement walls with two bottom plates. The very bottom one is PT due to the concrete contact.
Usually the second one is laid on top of 2X scraps and 40 penny nails driven through both from the top. The scraps are then knocked out. This gives the concrete floor room to rise and the movement isn't transferred to the plates. They don't push the stud into the top plate which would push up the floor joists.
It just so happens that this construction also allows for the second bottom plate to be adjusted to dead level and exactly parallel with the top plate attached to the joists. Two birds--one stone. Tyr
I like to use non-treated wood with ice and water under it, unless there's radiant heat.
For load-bearing walls in uneven basements I'll use a plate-to-plate level to set up top and bottom plates. The top plate is screwed to the upper floor joists and a couple of slightly long studs are wedged to hold the bottom plate in place and allow for much more accurate measurements.
Single plates conform to the irregularities, which can be good if you want adjustability, but can be a hinderance if it's more important to spread out the weight and have a flat surface for the floor joists to rest on.
A string line of 40lb spiderwire fishing line is thin and easy to see. I'll set it under the floor joists next to the top plate a nail width off the joists. Any slight verticle movement is very easy to see with this setup and individual joists can be easily raised or lowered as needed.
Call me a nerd, but I always have a stick of wax when building basement walls to lube the ends of the studs and allow easier fitment. A finer than normal framing blade is also used for a smoother finish on the cut ends.
To really put the lift on a low joist one stud is angled into place from one side until it can't lift anymore, then another stud is angled in from the other direction, essentially producing twice the lift. Using waxed studs probably allows a 50% increase in upward lift. If two studs can't lift a single joist enough you probably don't want to have it done.
If the joist layout is odd a second top plate can be added so the wall is built more consistant, but otherwise the plate-to-plate level is used to mark studs on the bottom plate only.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Paslode hot dipped galvies say right on the box that they are approved for use with ACQ lumber.
They SAY that, and are probably fine in a basement slab plet situation, but don't count on it for continually wetted things like deck joists. I can gaurantee you'll be disappointed with ACQ
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!