Replies

1. 
   hfhcarp10 | May 20, 2004 09:00pm | #1

   My Ben Moore guy told me the same thing when I was about to stain my all-cedar playhouse.  1st coat: oil based, subsequent coats down the road in latex.  I used a solid Ben Moore stain on lap siding, trim and doors and semi-transparent stain on the deck.  I like the contrast and dark color selection of solid stains.  Currently staining a deck with decking receiving semi-transparent and railings with solid.  Looks great.

   Carl

2. 
   Flatfive | May 21, 2004 02:45am | #2

   I sided my entire (small) house with cedar shingles. I did the front first and painted them with Behr solid body stain, light green. Then I noticed these brown blotches appearing on the shingles. Then I read the fine print on the can about staining raw cedar and redwood. I got the (water-based) sealer they recommended. I sealed all of the ones that were already up and then painted them again. This works most of the time but the shingles must be very dry first. I think I'd use an oil-based sealer next time. BTW, I continued shingling the house by sealing both sides of the shingles, letting them dry and then staining the fronts and edges. It takes a lot of time and space. Looks good, now...

   
   

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   Edited 5/21/2004 11:23 am ET by Flatfive

1. 
   10D | May 21, 2004 06:58am | #3

   I just came across your discussion.  Was you house originally sided with cedar shingles?  I have been collecting bids (and advice about contracts in another discussion)  on stripping the paint off of my house, a 1 1/2 story 1913 bungalow. The top half is cedar shingles, bottom is clapboard.  Looking at the pictures of your house, my coverage area on the top half may be around the same as your entire house, if not a little bigger. 

   Would it be less expensive to remove the current shingles and replace them than to strip and paint?  There are a few areas with missing/damages shingles, but all in all they are not in such bad shape.  About 4 coats of paint in 90 years.  Could you estimate a replacement cost - at least for labor and materials on your size house?

   Thanks.

   10D

1. 
   davidmeiland | May 21, 2004 07:53am | #4

   After some further discussion with a couple of folks locally, I'm going to look into oil-based solid body stain. Water-based anything as a first coat is apparently a no-no. The tannins in cedar and redwood are water-soluble and water-based finish will cause bleed if applied directly to new material. In the past I've always dealt with redwood siding and oil primers, and had no problems. Since the shingles go up wet I was interested in water-based finish but it ain't happening.

   10D, I'm in the process of putting #1 WRC shingles on my place. They take me about a day per half-square using a ribbon coursing pattern (every other course narrow), including putting on felt and some of the trim, and weaving all of the inside and outside corners. To make things even more miserable I decided to flare the bottom 24" of my walls, so I've got lots of curves to cut and plane. I could paint the Sistine ceiling faster.

   If I were doing your place I'd be charging you about $500 per square, including the openings, for straight 5" exposures and no flares. For anything above about 10 feet high it would go up because of scaffolding. To do what I did here would be about $750 per square, and even that wouldn't be enough. There have been threads here about sidewall pricing and the range is wide, from a few hundred for new construction with cornerboards, to over five hundred. Depends a lot on where you live and what pricing is like there.

1. 
   10D | May 25, 2004 04:38am | #8

   Okay, I got an estimate to replace the shingles on the upper portion of my house for right around $12,000.  I don't have a written bid yet, but I took notes - the contractor said they would remove the siding down to the sheathing; replace up to 50 sq. ft rotton wood; put "ice and water shield" around windows (I live in the midwest); install poly styrene perforated insulation as a vapor barrier (I don't like this idea - poly anything on the house - your opinion?); and install 5 1/2" WRC#1, blue label, pre-primed and pre-stained on all sides as done by a machine.  I asked about felt, because you mentioned it in your post, and he said they don't do that so much anymore - that it's not weather proof and that this poly styrene "replaced" felt and 30 lb. tar paper.  Price includes removal and disposal.  What do you think of the scope of this estimate?

   Meanwhile, I'll go look for other threads. 

   Thanks.

   10D

         

1. 
   davidmeiland | May 25, 2004 07:49am | #9

   remove the siding down to the sheathing

   On my place I renailed all of the sheathing--it had no felt over it and the nails were rusty from condensation under the old shingles. The sheathing was in good condition. How old is your house?

   replace up to 50 sq. ft rotton wood

   Sounds OK, but rot repair can't be predicted and I've never seen it quantified by the square foot. If I'm putting something in a proposal for rot repair I allow a certain number of hours and certain number of dollars for the work, basically converting that part of the work to time and materials with an estimate of that cost in the proposal.

   put "ice and water shield" around windows (I live in the midwest)

   Sounds good. I use Grace Vycor Plus in a 12" width as window flashing.

   install poly styrene perforated insulation as a vapor barrier (I don't like this idea - poly anything on the house - your opinion?);

   Don't know, stuff like that is often local practice... 

   and install 5 1/2" WRC#1, blue label, pre-primed and pre-stained on all sides as done by a machine

   I would specify that the shingle install be per the CSSA specs for sidewall work, see cedarbureau.org for the details. Fastener choice is critical. Sounds like they are using R&R shingles... might be good to name the manufacturer so you can check up on the finish quality on them.

   I asked about felt, because you mentioned it in your post, and he said they don't do that so much anymore - that it's not weather proof and that this poly styrene "replaced" felt and 30 lb. tar paper

   I don't agree, I'm using 30lb felt and Vycor in combination and I think it's a great system. Never heard of polystyrene instead of felt. See the Cedar Bureau specs. The correct application of felt, flashing, vycor, etc., is the most important thing on this job.

   Price includes removal and disposal.  What do you think of the scope of this estimate?

   I'd like to know how many 'square' the job is... how many hundred square feet. Height times width on all walls and don't subtract windows unless maybe they're huge.

2. 
   10D | May 25, 2004 04:14pm | #10

   david - my house is c.1913. 

   It appears to only have been painted 4 times at the most.  Most of the shingles are in really good shape - I think they were covered by asphalt siding since the 40s-50s. I am weighing the price/effort of stripping the paint to bare wood and repainting (very expensive) v. replacing (better idea for long term?)

   Thank you for your suggestions - I will check out the Cedar Bureau specs. The contractor is supposed to get me a copy of the typed proposal today and I will pass on the details to you.  I would like to know how many square the job is, too! I asked him and he didn't say.

   10D

3. 
   Piffin | May 29, 2004 03:29pm | #11

   I don't see anything wrong with the proposal provided, though I would use the tarpaper myself. The perf styro would be OK but it is not really a VB in my opinion.

   He is following good business practice to deliver the proposal personally instead of just sending it. That way, he can explain the details and answere questions you may have.

   i would never use any thing other than pre-dipped if the customer wanted a colour. Last fall, I removed shingles that haad been painted for 20-30 years and almost every single one of them had water locked in the bare wood on the back side. Any wind driven rain that got in was locked there, so all the shingles were punky. Thirty years ago, I was asked for a bid to re-paint some cedar shingled siding on a large municiple building. my investigation showed a similar sitruation and I refused to bid it and recommended that they replace the shingles instead. They went ahead and painted - then three years later, with the paint peeling off, they were soliciting bids to re-shingle.

   So this is a judgement call. depending on the condition of your existing shingles. I can't see them from here, but after 90 years and with a season of being covered with asphalt and all the nail holes that left behind, I have a hard time imagining that you will be happy with value recieved to have kept the old. I would probably be recommmending new and what I hear from you so far about this contractor sounds professional.

   Costs can easily go to $600/square or more in difficult situations 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   davidmeiland | May 21, 2004 07:57am | #5

   Great colors! We're in the throes of choosing colors right now and may go something like yours.

3. 
   Flatfive | May 21, 2004 06:25pm | #6

   More of the house...

1. 
   Flatfive | May 21, 2004 11:55pm | #7

   And this view...