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Paint peeling on bedroom ceiling

RichBeckman | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on August 31, 2004 02:39am

One story home. Built in the fifties. Addition on the back from the mid seventies.

Crawlspace is vented, dirt floor, no insulation anywhere in crawl.

Heat/AC ducts run through the crawl, the return air runs through the attic (but there is only one return air vent).

Attic floor in original house has maybe threee inches of that granular insulation that probably contains asbestos (can’t think of the name at the moment).

The addition has fiberglass batts (maybe three inches thick) with a foil vapor barrier, but it is installed with the vapor barrier up!

The newer windows in the addition have condensation at times in the winter, the older windows in the original house don’t have as much of a problem (according to homeowner).

One bedroom in the addition has paint peeling off the ceiling. Apparantly this has been a recurring problem.

I tried to explain that the solution is in the crawlspace (plastic on the floor, seal it all up), but she perceives that to be too much and she wants me to add insulation above the bedroom.

I would guess that I would destroy the existing vapor barrier, install vent chutes between the rafters close to the eave, and blow in a bunch of cells.

I’ve already warned her once that this might not work (and I will again), but the guy at the lumberyard thinks it will make the problem worse (added insulation making movement of the vapor through the assembly more difficult).

So…does the guy at the lumberyard have a point??? I think no, but then…

What do I know??

Thanks,

Rich Beckman

Another day, another tool.

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Replies

  1. Mitremike | Aug 31, 2004 03:08am | #1

    Rich, I beliieve you are right in that the problem is in the crawl space. The vb facing the wrong way does not help . In Mn, we would poly the crawl space floor, foam bourd the walls, and blow the ceiling with insul ,

    the vapor from the dirt comes up thru the floor and condasates on the ceiling where the cold break is the greatest. the proof is in the windows iceing up because of high humidity.

    All these thing i believe are a system for dring out the ceiling so paint will stick after some time to dry.

    hope all goes well Mike from Mn.

  2. calvin | Aug 31, 2004 03:14am | #2

    Rich,  Any close proximity from the peeling paint to the run of the return air in the attic?

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    Quittin' Time

    1. User avater
      RichBeckman | Aug 31, 2004 08:07am | #5

      "Any close proximity from the peeling paint to the run of the return air in the attic?"

      Well, about six feet, maybe five. The furnace is in a closet that is next to the bedroom and the return air vent is in the hallway maybe five feet down from the corner of the bedroom. The peeling paint is mostly in the center of the bedroom.

      I don't see it as a factor, but then, what do I.....???

      The return air duct is wrapped in the same insulation with the foil on the outside.

      Rich Beckman

      Another day, another tool.

  3. Piffin | Aug 31, 2004 03:21am | #3

    "but it is installed with the vapor barrier up! "

    The moisture from the crawl is being trapped in the attic insulation. They lumberyard guy may have a point. Add more insulation on top and you could trap more moisture.

    I would add VB in crawl and turn thje attic insulation over before adding any more.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. HeavyDuty | Aug 31, 2004 07:08am | #4

      I think we all agree on the moisture in the crawl. That leads to the high humidity in the house showing up as dripping windows. Also I suspect more than average leakage from living space to attic insulation through framing, electrical and plumbing etc. and the resulting moisture gets trapped under the VB up insulation.

      The moisture from the crawl is being trapped in the attic insulation. They lumberyard guy may have a point. Add more insulation on top and you could trap more moisture.

      Normally, if the moisture causing the peeling paint is from condensation as a result of temperature gradient then adding more insulation on top of the VB would help, the 1/3 rule in cold climate. But in this case the condensation is from excessive air/moisture leak so IMHO adding more insulation would have negligible effect on the problem at hand.

      Edited 8/31/2004 12:08 am ET by TOMCHARK

      1. Piffin | Aug 31, 2004 07:23pm | #7

        Theoreticaly, you might be right, but that VB in the wrong place is what I am keying in on. I have in memory a small ranch with a wet basement where the attic had been insulated with R13.5 FG upside down in the early sixties. Then with the energy criosis of the seventies, they went in and added a sheet of plastic over that, and then put another six inches of unfaced on top. The space between the cieling and the original VB got ungodly moldy, to the point of making the owners ill. That was in upstate WNY 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. User avater
    IMERC | Aug 31, 2004 09:39am | #6

    Open a window and let out some of the steam...

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....

                                                                       WOW!!!   What a Ride!

    1. Pascanale | Aug 31, 2004 11:04pm | #8

      Unrelated to the VB and moisture....I practice your closing philosophical statement and its akin to something I say to people more often recently, too as I sit here typing while nursing a broken leg from playing ice hockey...

      "all men die, few men really live"

      I'm not the author.

      Scrappy

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Aug 31, 2004 11:48pm | #9

        Sounds like you don't play agressively enough...

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....                                                                   WOW!!!   What a Ride!

  5. kclarson | Sep 01, 2004 12:36am | #10

    Here in Fairbanks Alaska, we see similar problems with the older homes in town.

    What we now require is vapor barrier on the floor of the crawl space AND the crawl space must be ventilated either by passive means (a couple openable vents on the rim board) or mechanically by installing intake and exhaust vents off of the HRV (heat recovery ventilator). This should take care of any moisture in the crawl space. Next, the home's vapor barrier must be on the warm side of the wall. Foil facing makes a lousy VB and is not approved here because it can never be properly sealed. There is moisture in all houses (showers, cooking, breathing, sweating, etc.) and this must be dealt with...wet windows in winter is a clear sign that there is interior air problems. The installation of an HRV will solve this problem. A bit expensive but very effective. Someone mentioned that the thickness of the insulation may be causing problems. This is true. When it's cold outside, the warm side of the insulation may be at the dew point and that's where the moist inside air condenses. With the current VB on the top side, the moist air is migrating into the insulation and condensing and getting the ceiling wet...peeling the paint. A bargain basement way to fix this would be to cake on some good quality paint such that the paint acts as the VB...not recommended but better than doing nothing. I'd recommend adding visqueen to the warm side of the framing, insulate with unfaced insulation to the proper thickness (R-38 for ceilings here) and adding an HRV or other means to exhaust the stale interior air.

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