Paint Question-What’s the Brown Stuff?
Since everyone here was so helpful with my last paint and Prep question, here I come again. I am getting ready to redo the master bathroom. The situation is this:
Small 3/4 bath (8×8 approx). On outside corner of the house- toilet, shower stall, and vanity. I am going to replace the generic fan with a rafter mounted one , or at least one of better quality. The one I have moves air, but is noisy. All walls and ceiling are insulated.
But the real problems are #1- the mildew on the ceiling. I think I can deal with that. Problem #2- the walls are covered with brown drips on the white paint. I don’t know if the steam is condensing on the walls and there is something in the well water, or whether it’s coming from the paint. I found this quote in the archives:
“As regards the latex-or-oil question, I understand that in a bathroom, if you get a brown substance leaching out of your paint when your walls steam up, you’ve got latex. If not, you’ve got oil.”.
Is this an accurate statement? And if so, how do I go about prepping, priming, and painting the walls so that it doesn’t come back?
I prefer to use latex for its simplicity, but will go to oil in the case if it will solve the problem? Can anyone elaborate on what’s happening to the paint in there?
Replies
The mold and brown drips are both sure signs of condensation. Does everyone who uses the shower use the fan?
Also, no matter how much air a fan can move it has to have a supply to draw from. How tightly sealed is the room? Is the door undercut or vented to pull air for the fan to exhaust?
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I understand that the condensation is the issue. I guess the thrust of the question is:
Are the brown drips coming from something leeching out of the paint? Has anyone ever seen this before and if so, how do I go about repainting to avoid the problem again?
The vent does move air. Even with the door closed, there is enough makeup air for the fan to draw. I can watch the steam move up to the ceiling and through the fan. So I know it is exhausting air. In addition, the frost on the roof melts right by the vent due to the hot air being blown out, so I know it's working.
Ah, gotcha now... I've seen the brown drips you are talking about in high condensation areas several times. In west Texas we get a lot of dust blowing down from the northwest part of the state. I've always assumed the brown drips were just caused by the water vapor attaching itself to the dust particles in the air before condensing on the walls.
I've seen the brown drips on both oil and latex painted surfaces so I don't think it's the paint but it wouldn't be the first time I learned something if I'm mistaken.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I suggest not expending too much energy on the brown stuff leaching from the paint. Once you re-paint and correct your mosisture problems, it should be a non-issue.
I suggest a Panasonic fan (EFI.ORG) with a timer. Be sure it is ducted to the outside, not into the attic. Insulate the duct. A properly ducted Panasonic fan is very quiet and effective at moving air. The timer encourages you to use the fan frequently. You can set it to run and walk away, confident it will turn off when the job is done.
Before you paint, wash the ceiling with a bleach solution, let it sit for a few hours, then rinse thoroughly and let dry. If you don't rinse, the paint may not stick.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I just went through this on a new home project.
I the process of trying to test a high end shower mixing valve for temp fluctuation the steam shower was left on for an hour or so by mistake without the fan. Of course condensation was everywhere. All the walls were cleaned with a cleaner recommended by the paint manufacturer. The brown drips kept coming back. It turns out that even the very best latex has a chemical component that will break down when exposed to a certain level of steam / humidity. The surfaces must be completely dried and resealed ( Binz was the recommendation) or the condition will keep comeing back.
PS I should have mentioned the original paint was top of the line washable latex that had achieved cure IE had been in place long enough to be hand washed per mfrs. specs. It seems to me that if this condition has happened once with latex it is time to switch to oil.
Edited 12/22/2003 12:43:13 PM ET by NOVY_7
I painted my bath with oil. The is no more milldew or dripping brown water. The previous paint had bubbles in it, so the moisture was stored in the drywall and fed the mildew. Previously the mildew grew on the paint, not on the tile or other plastic or metal surfaces.
Thanks Novy and Sungod. Your responses are what I was afraid of . . . . .
Like I said before, the fan is vented outside and I can see the moisture following the air currents out the vent as the fan runs. (It is on a 30 min spring wound timer also). Think I'll try sealing the walls with kilz or similar and topcoat with oil. Hopefully that will help.
Regarding the brown drips...were their smokers in the house? Nicotine will get on the white paint and then form brown drips when steam from the shower settles on the walls.
I don't want to sound insulting, but was that ceiling ever washed?
The only time I have ever seen this is in houses where the housekeepingh was minimal, to say the least, and ceilings are not on the list for most people. Normal dust, cig smoke, candle vapours, etc, can form thin films that would run into little stalactites with help from condensation moisture. Any paint job should be preped with a washdown including TSP which woill remoe it. if that will not wash it away and the brown spots run deeper than the surface, I'll eat my tinfoil hat.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, ceiling has been washed and was prepped well before this paint was applied. The problem is not on the ceiling though, it's on the walls.
No smokers in house, previous owners didn't smoke (I knew them), and the spots are HARD. WILLL NOT wash off. Trust me I've tried. I can get them off with comet and a nylon scrubby but that just removes the paint too.
That's why i was wondering if it might be the water. I'm on well water and I wonder if it's some sort of iron settling out or something.
None of the paint stores know what I'm speaking of, that's why I came here. There is one SW store that I haven't talked to, but the BM and Duron dealers just looked at me like I had 3 heads when I propose this problem. I'm willing to cough up $$ for the paint and do the prep right, but I need to identify the problem first.
How does tin foil taste anyway ;p
Merry Christmas everyone and thanks for the help.
Edited 12/23/2003 7:32:40 AM ET by frontiercc
I have mentioned this in a few posts.
The brown drips are not coming from the wall interior. It is from the dyes in the soaps, shampoos , and conditioners bathers use nowadays. If you have an old paint surface whose gloss/ durability has eroded, the dyes will bond with the paint and will be difficult if not impossible to remove.
You can test this 2 ways:
A) Chip out a portion of the wall surface and carefully scratch away the material fro BACK to FRONT. You will notice the stain is coming from the suface - otherwise the brown coloring would be pervaisive in the substrate.
B) Wash the ceilings and walls completely removing all brown drips. Turn on the hot water shower leave the room and let it run for a 1/2 hr. When you return there won't be any brown drips because no one used any soap or conditioner.
Many clients complain about these drips when the walls are painted with low gloss finish and/ or their old walls were so covered with brownness they never noticed.
Use semi-gloss - latex or oil, it doesn't matter. it makes the brown drips easier to wipe off. Also the higher sheen make the drips less appearant.
F.
Thanks Frankie- appreciate the feedback.
Like chicken?.
Excellence is its own reward!