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Discussion Forum

Paint stripping Infrared vs.Chem

JWSpring | Posted in General Discussion on March 29, 2006 12:10pm

I have 400 sq feet of 150 year old flooring (12″ Plank) I would like to strip it of its many

(4) layers of paint. I pulled the floor up in one room and may plane them with a 13″ planer, but the rest I was thinking of “redistrip” then I was told about infrared stripping.

The units (infrared) are not cheap ($350-$450)

I like the fact that infrared does not add moisture to the wood.

I plan to finish the floors with 3 coats of poly.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

-J Spring

1850’s farmhouse (coming along)

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  1. kate | Mar 29, 2006 12:35am | #1

    Details???  Does this burn off the paint, or what?

    1. JWSpring | Mar 29, 2006 01:09am | #2

      the IF unit heats the paint to 300 degrees and the paint pulls away from the wood.

      300 is not hot enough to vaporize toxic (ie lead) stuff

      1. kate | Mar 29, 2006 01:39am | #3

        Is there a website?  My 300 year old house has LOTS of stripping!  Even if the device costs a few hundred dollars, the number of gallons of paint remover that I'd need would probably equal it.  I have a heat gun, a heat plate, more kinds of scrapers than you can name, & the best remover I've found costs $68 a gal.

        I'm always interested in options!

        1. User avater
          McDesign | Mar 29, 2006 02:52am | #6

          I bought mine off the web from a company called Viking.  It's called the "Silent Paint Remover",and really works well.  A painter friend used mine; ordered one the next day.

          Forrest

          1. cynwyd | Mar 30, 2006 04:53am | #23

            Didn't even know I wanted another tool.

            This Silent Paint Stripper looks amazing and they offer a $24/day rental with a 3 day minimum, no charge while in transit.

            If it works as well as videos show I'll buy after my trial.

            Thanks, I think.

        2. JWSpring | Mar 29, 2006 03:07pm | #12

          http://www.ecostrip.com

  2. woodway | Mar 29, 2006 02:32am | #4

    What about using a belt sander such as is used on hardwood floors? You don't or shouldn't have the potential of a fire like you have with the infrared and you aren't exposing yourself to dangerous chemicals. Dust? Yes, but that's what they have masks for. It's cheaper than either one too.

    1. philarenewal | Mar 29, 2006 02:46am | #5

      >>What about using a belt sander such as is used on hardwood floors?

      Isn't there that whole lead paint thing and getting lead dust everywhere?

      1850's farmhouse.  Four layers of paint. 

      "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

      1. woodway | Mar 29, 2006 05:52am | #8

        That's why you should wear an NIOSH approved, cartridge type, air filter mask. If you use infrared, the heat generated to remove the paint will volatilize the lead based paint additives and they will be inhaled because they pass through any filter mask. Chemical stripping not only exposes you to the harsh chemicals but then what do you do with the waste? Are you going to bury it in your back yard, wrap it in a brown paper and stuff it into the garbage. That stuff is toxic to fish and wildlife and will be a pain in the a** the get rid of. If you sand it, the sanded material will be ladened with lead paint residue and you'll have to get it disposed of too. Getting rid of the waste is a problem no matter what you do but wouldn't you like to just get rid of lead based paint rather than five or six gallons of caustic material with lead based paint to.

        1. philarenewal | Mar 29, 2006 02:53pm | #9

          >>"If you use infrared, the heat generated to remove the paint will volatilize the lead based paint additives and they will be inhaled because they pass through any filter mask.  Chemical stripping not only exposes you to the harsh chemicals but then what do you do with the waste?

          Guess there's just no good way to get rid of it.  Every method has its drawbacks.  Chemicals are expensive too.

          I think the EPA is on its way to just about outlawing dry sanding of more than a couple square feet of lead paint.  But then I don't think wet sanding wood is too practical.  No easy answers. 

          "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

          1. JWSpring | Mar 29, 2006 03:02pm | #10

            According to the information on the "eco-strip" website,www.ecostrip.com

            the infrared tool heats up the paint to 380-580 degrees and claims that lead

            does not vaporize until heated to 1000 degrees.

            I would still use fans and breathing protection.

          2. JWSpring | Mar 29, 2006 03:07pm | #11

            My other option,the sweaty one, is to pull all the floor boards and flip them.

            That is replace them with the painted side down,sand the raw wood and finish.

            My knees ache just writing this.

            -J. Spring

          3. woodway | Mar 29, 2006 06:57pm | #17

            Well, there's the law and then there's what you or I actually do. There are, at times, some differences between the two. I recently got rid of two 55 gallon drums of used oil. I called state recycling board, got a disposal # and had it sucked out and recycled. Still, there was probably 3 gallons of oil left over in the drums. Did I dump it illegally? Between you and I, yes! Will it really ever matter? No!I think we should use our common sense here. Make an effort to get rid of the paint through the proper channels as best you can but I don't believe that it's necessary call out the EPA police and get every sliver. Lead is a natural element found in the earth and no matter what you do, there will be some lead around and if you should add a small percentage to that total, who's to know. Common sense would tell you that if you strip the paint off a old building, you should probably make every effort to get most of the waste disposed of properly. You don't want it in your yard, your neighbors yard and don't wrap it up and dump it in the municipal dump either. It's the idiots that will try to skirt the laws and think they're getting ahead that will cause everyone to be exposed down the road. Somehow somewhere that waste will show up and someone may be harmed by one fool's actions to save a few bucks. Let's face it, some of the things we humans have done in the past were just plain stupid. My Grandmother, may she rest in peace, use LEAD ARSENATE to kill tomato horn worms. She wasn't a stupid person but she was ignorantOn the other side are the desk jockey's within most state environmental agencies...most are there because they have a stable job and benefits that most people don't have on their private sector job. Ninety percent haven't got a clue about anything environmental and generally aren't qualified to sit in the chair that they occupy four to five hours a day. The bitter fact is reflected in the actions they've mandated regarding asbestos, oxygenated fuel, lead based paint and air quality to name a few.

          4. sandalboy | Mar 30, 2006 03:12am | #18

            A side note to the lead disposal issue. I have 5 cars, and do all of my own repairs and maintenance. Due to this I have collected numerous containers of various fluids. None of which should be dumped on the ground or poured down the drain. Getting rid of the used oil is easy, most auto parts stores will take it, and our public works garage will take it.I saved up a couple gallons of transmission fluid, a gallon of brake fluid and maybe 10 gallons of antifreeze. A few years ago I tried to find someplace to take it. I called all of the regions auto parts stores, and none would take it. I called dozens of repair shops, and none would take it. I called our public works garage and other city garages, and they wouldn't accept it. I called the local EPA office, and they asked if I called any service shops. After I told them that none will take it, they said that they don't know what I should do. I guess that everyone in Northeastern Pennsylvania that does their own work is illegally dumping all of this stuff. All of these places that I called appeared to have never been asked the question before.Anyway I saved the stuff and accumulated some more fluids. Then finally I got a tip from someone when I was getting new tires. They thought that one of our local Jiffy Lube shops does accept it. They did and I got rid of it. Now I'm accumulating again.If I was like the average person it would have been dumped illegally. I think that this is the case with most hazzardous materials. There is no readily accessible place to get rid of these for the average person. Government has to a better job, and around here thats not likely in the near future.

          5. chascomp | Mar 30, 2006 04:27am | #21

            I agree, being responsible is difficult if not impossible. Luckily my community has, once or twice a year, a "bring your toxic waste to the fair grounds and we'll take care of it" day. I don't like the government invading my space at any time, but toxic waste is an enormous problem and our tax dollars would be better spent dealing with this issue than the life cycle of the neo-brat-spin darter ( A non-existent fish that is endangered). I'd like to chastise anyone that lets their toxic waste run into the earth, but, we all know - Mother Nature will outlive us all.

        2. chascomp | Mar 30, 2006 03:56am | #19

          So, as I've wondered add infinitum, what do we do with all this toxic stuff? Asbestos, lead paint, or just plain old throw away lighters? Maybe it's a diffent thread, but where do you dump your toxic waste?

          1. firedude | Mar 30, 2006 04:12am | #20

            getting back to the original topic - I have been using the "silent paint remover" for a few years and it works very well - as for disposing of the stripped paint, three mil plastic bagged doubled and then off to the state landfill - accepted legal state approved practice - in terms of doing the floor, check out this old house and look for the episode where they use a liquid remover for the house paint - forget what the name is but it's a canadian product (?) designed for taking paint off airplanes - something to considerabout disposing of hazardous waste, the state landfill will accept most household waste (oils/old paint/tranny fluid/etc)- asbestos is state regulated and licensed remover is required - hope this helps

          2. woodway | Mar 30, 2006 05:10am | #25

            Ninety five percent of all paint removers contain methylene chloride. That stuff does not break down and will be in the ground when your grandchildren are around.

            We need to seriously think about what to do with our waste and not just dump it in a landfill. I know that's what many communities allow but that doesn't mean it's correct. It needs to be sent to a formal chemical disposal facility and state/city governments need to make it easy for their citizens to do proper chem disposal.
            San Jose California use to have a municipal dump back in the 1930's where they disposed of everything . The dump closed in the 40's and over the years the area gradually became more urban and houses started to be built upon the area. Another part was devoted to a local garden and dog park where kids and dogs could run and play. Well, they started to wonder about safety so a soil sample was taken. Long story short, they closed the dog park and the community garden and they HOPE no one was effected by eating the veggies grown there. It's going to take millions of dollars to clean up and it may never be clean enough to use . They are also investigating the ground water situation as possible contamination may have spread there too.Land fill areas should not be used as chemical disposal areas, period. If your landfill is accepting and disposing chemical in the ground, then your local officials aren't doing their job. Radiator fluid mixes with water and is nearly impossible to separate. The dump several miles away may accept radiator fluid today but remember, you may be drinking small amounts of it in ten year or so and it will never leave the aquifer once it's there. Oil originated from the soil and ground disposal of small quantities can be handled my soil micro-organisms without too much problem. Radiator fluid is synthetic(man made) and nature doesn't have methods to handle that stuff efficiently. Waste oil also contains acids from combustion breakdown products and those small quantities can also be handled in the soil. Much the same can be said for trans fluids too but again, wholesale disposal of large quantities (more than a gallon or so from one person) should be sent to recycle.

          3. dgbldr | Mar 30, 2006 09:36am | #26

            One of the very few safe methods to remove lead-containing paint is alkaline stripping. The resulting goo is not hazardous. Look into it, learn how and why. Find out why historic restoration experts and lead remediation contractors use it.  

            Lead remediation is science, not an opinion poll or popularity contest. 

            DG/Builder

          4. philarenewal | Mar 30, 2006 02:36pm | #27

            >>"Oil originated from the soil and ground disposal of small quantities can be handled my soil micro-organisms without too much problem."

            Forgive my ignorance but we are drilling for oil that's been underground for millions of years.  No organisms have touched it in all that time.  If you dump waste oil, tranny fluid, any petrochemical, in a hole in the ground, what keeps it from eventually reaching the ground water? 

            "A job well done is its own reward.  Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"

          5. sandalboy | Mar 30, 2006 04:24pm | #28

            It is true that oil will break down, sometimes much faster than expected. Some major oil spills such as the Exxon Valdez cause major damage initially, but the recovery is surprising. I think that scientists have found that rocky coasts recover faster than sandy coasts. It sounds like things that speed the process are agitation, aeration, heat, and light. Unfortunately if you just pour a quart of oil on your soil it may not get enough of these processes to break it up before it contaminates ground water. I know that I've heard several times, one teaspoon of oil can contaminate hundreds of thousands of gallons of water.

          6. firedude | Mar 30, 2006 04:31pm | #30

            quick answer - nothing - depends on the hole and where the water is - and if you're drinking it

          7. woodway | Mar 30, 2006 08:00pm | #32

            If you come back to the same site 4 to 5 years later, assuming only 1 X burial, you won't find any oil left or residue. Now if you dump say a 55 gallon drum then you'll likely find oil residue for several years but given a couple of decades, say 25 years, you won't find a trace left over. Every year that passes, signs of the oil tanker spill in Alaska, Exxon Valdez (sp) are getting harder and harder to find. Turn over any rock on the beach and you can see residual oil but every year the amounts a getting less and less. It's referred to a Clay Floculation (I think)and it's natures method of bring things into balance.You have tons of waste oil all over in your neighborhood right now, it's called asphalt and yet how many people are pumping perfectly clean water from wells that are only a few yards from the road . This does not mean that we can just start disposing of waste oil Willy Nilly around the planet and not expect some adverse effects. We, human beings, just fall victim to the effects long before nature has a chance to handle the problem.

          8. firedude | Mar 30, 2006 04:29pm | #29

            not disagreeing with your observations.... but that's what is currently allowed and is therefore done, I think part of the theory is being double bagged will contain the waste, however, those machines driving over the bags probably just rip them open.lots of other ways to deal with waste but most are expensive and you count on the public to do "the right thing" - since no one wants to spend "more" money, what ever is cheapest at the time usually wins - regardless of the additional cost later

          9. woodway | Mar 30, 2006 07:31pm | #31

            Your right. Cost too often trumps common sense. There should be some procedure or mechanism in every state where hazardous waste can be disposed of at low cost. Fees are just too high and when it costs $450 to dispose of a barrel(55 gals) of oil, it just easier to dump at the side of the road. Here in California, to dispose of a single tire the fee is $55.00 at most disposal facilities. The result: you can investigate almost any out-of-the-way location along any creek bed and find huge piles of old tires. San Francisco Bay, at low tide, looks like thousands of little tires are growing out of the mud. I thought it was some kind of statement by local artists for awhile but I was wrong. Officials in charge of such thing just don't seem to get it. Again, my rant...City, County and State officials generally don't know what they're doing. They are there because it's a lifetime job guarantee not for their ability, quality of work or knowledge. If common sense were dynamite, most of them wouldn't have enough to blow their nose (Got that from my Dad).

          10. woodway | Mar 30, 2006 04:37am | #22

            Well, I attempt to recycle what I can and the stuff like Lead Arsenate, I haven't figured out yet. Local fire dept. has a household hazardous waste disposal twice a year for small quantities which where I'll check next. If that doesn't work then I'll check with the state hazardous waste people, they can always oblige you but they're trying to balance the state budget you know and, well you can guess what they want. Large quantities require contact with state hazardous material board who assign waste disposal numbers for limited quantities of material, their program works well as long as your money holds out.

          11. edward3 | Mar 30, 2006 04:59am | #24

            I was a licensed deleader for one year. I tore beautiful molding, doors, all levels of trimwork out old houses ( most jobs were in block houses and other buildings subsidized HUD and Section 8 ( left a really bad taste in my mouth, not the sweet taste of lead dust)). This material was thrown into dumpsters for pickup. They used to bring to some landfill in RI or CONN. (can't remember which). Turns out that after the fill was closed, they started taking the demo lumber to a plant that ground the stuff up and used it for hydroseeding along highways ( no joke ). Want to know where kids have the highest exposure to lead?, walk in your backyard, and scoop up a handful of dirt. If it is coming from the child chewing on a baseboard, lead should be the last thing you should worry about 

    2. sandalboy | Mar 29, 2006 05:02pm | #14

      Another method, which I have done, and have mixed feelings about. I bought a Metabo paint stripper, and have done part of my house so far. It is all red cedar clapboards and shingles. At the time that I was buying I might have bought the infrared system, but I think that it was twice as expensive a few years ago.The metabo is basically a small planer, but it rotates on a different axis than a normal electric planer. It is sort of like a 4 inch sanding disk, but with carbide blades on it. It is a pretty nicely made unit, but not perfect. There is another similar unit called the "Paint Shaver" which has ads found in various homebuilding magazines.My main gripe with the Metabo unit is that there will be bits of paint zinging off. The dust collection tube is only partially effective, even with a strong vacuum. The "Paint Shaver" brand one of these has a surrounding brush ring that may help the situation. I have not used it though and can't validate the usefulness of the collector. Either way, it seems to make more paint chips than dust. This is better than sanding which would turn all rather than some of the paint into dust.Another downside is that there is a high potential to remove wood with the paint. I damaged a few small areas on my house. They sanded out fine, but it is obvious that there is potential for deeper damage. These really will plane off anything in their path, even nails. Sometimes a nail can get ripped right out.I wore a lead paint rated cartridge dust mask, and tyvek suit when doing this. Showered whenever I got out of the suit, and didn't have lunch in the suit or wear it into the house. I have never checked my lead levels, but feel that on the small scale that I have done this and using decent precautions, shouldn't have any problems.If you go this route you should have a hepa filter in your vacuum, and not have the exhaust indoors or near you.The final job is amazing. Most people would have thought that the 70 year old siding was shot. After doing this most of the siding looks as good as the new clapboards that I used to cover an unused door.

    3. cwaltner | Mar 30, 2006 08:39pm | #33

      Trying to sand paint from floors, even with heavy duty floor finishing sanders, is not effective. The paints gungs up the belts very quick. Stripping paint first is best.Also, I do not recomend sanding lead paint. That's probably the most dangerous way. As we know, dust get everywhere and is very hard to stop, even with proper precautions. The infrared is one of the safest, if not safest ways to deal with lead paint. As far as I now, the infrared doesn't create fire hazards, but, of course, have your lawyer check the product info.Please check out This Old House Magazine archives (sorry Taunton) for a good article on it.

  3. alias | Mar 29, 2006 03:01am | #7

    i have through quite an array of process's in this department, i started with methyl chloride which i love for it's expediency . but stopped for having my health messed up and have my schmecky fall off and roll down my pant leg and end up in the dark corner of the room. i tried the citri strip but alas for 135 yrs of build up, it didnt do what i needed it to do. i went out and bought the silent paint remover and re-constituted the paint with some B.L.O cut with mineral spirits . and thought that being the newest procedure for me . but i ended up with a lead content in my blood that was high , even with a resperator and fans . so off to peel- away city i went and have tried the gamut on that product.and 90% of the material removed that way. and feel with minimal silent paint remover / and methyl chloride for corners and hard to reach spots. although i'm sure you know lead is pretty dangerous stuff and once air-borne children and pets suffer the most. i would stick with the procedure that consolidates the material and contains it . sanding , heat do-not do that. and the lays in waiting for unexpected consumption. my lead level is now normal , i do mostly historic restoration for 18 years now. just a coupla ¢ 's . remember your babies and pets........

    ..

    " we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
  4. BOBABEUI | Mar 29, 2006 03:17pm | #13

    I for one would not consider running any of the flooring through a thickness planer, the paint will dull the knives instantly (or pretty close to it), on top of the fact that the paint is guaranteed to contain lead and processing through a thickness planer will create (even attached to a dust collector) much fine lead dust.

  5. splat | Mar 29, 2006 05:42pm | #15

    What's your lead risk level?

    No free lunch with paint stripping.

    A large flat area like a floor or clapboards points towards heat gun/plate or IR.  If not careful these can deliver very large amounts of lead into your blood stream.

    Next up would be chemicals.  methylene chloride will give you cancer and peel away will break the bank.

    There was a post a week or two ago asking essentially the same question.  Use the search.

    splat

    1. harrisdog43 | Mar 29, 2006 06:11pm | #16

      John Leeke has a website for removal of paint in old homes. http://historichomeworks.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=f002694ca023c7bdf71c395c956c129c

      Check out the info on using steam. You can buy a steam generator like those used in the upholstery or draperie cleaning biz.

      john

  6. catch32 | Mar 31, 2006 08:44am | #34

    On flat surfaces you can not beat the Silent Paint Remover.

    I have an 1890s home with about 8 layers of paint. The SPR takes all 8 layers off in one pass on the clapboard siding. Using a good quality pull scraper results in very little damage to the wood. Very little sanding is needed. It's amazing to see how well this tool strips paint.

    Also the SPR takes paint off in big sheets which harden into chunks when they cool. Much less lead dust that traditional scraping methods.

    $400 for the tool is a little expensive, but considering no chemicals are needed and very little sanding is needed it's a bargain.

    Good Luck with your project.

    Edit: I'm not Catch22. Not sure why my reply is using his name. Sorry Catch.

    Mike K



    Edited 3/31/2006 1:46 am ET by catch32

    1. JWSpring | Mar 31, 2006 03:29pm | #35

      I went over to the local distributor for "Eco-strip" and brought with me a 3' piece of

      my flooring(4 layers of old paint). We plugged the unit in,let it warm up and set it on the floorboard for

      15 sec. The paint smoked a bit/bubbled up and with a scraper I pulled the paint right off leaving clean smooth wood.

      I bought the unit.

      -J. Spring

       

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