i was talking to a potential customer. He wants his house re-sided because he painted it (in the summer with plenty of prep work and put on some product to avoid peeling paint) and it is all peeling 2 years later.
I dont really want the siding job but more importantly im cureus about the paint problem.
At work we just had some painters paint a couple of our houses and theere are bubbles forming under the paint. On one of them the bubbles are as big as 6″ in diamiter.
My best guess is that they are using a product called (i think it’s called) ‘mask and seal’ which is this odd primer which goes on very thick and has no pigmant. For lack of a better explination my guess is that the primer is somehow failing.
But even ef im correct it certaintly doesent explain this potential customers problem.
Any help either answering questions or providing me with links to “paint science” pages would be appreciated. thanks
…sorry for my spelling
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–> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Replies
Could be a number of things but the one I see most often is silicone. If a product containing silicone finds its way onto a surface that is later painted, the silicone can prevent proper bonding. This could be from silicone caulks, silicone residue in paint mixing buckets that were previously used for something else, etc.
I was amused to watch aTV show once about a high-end car restoration shop. The owner did not allow cars into the shop until they were tested for silicone. If there was any silicone in the wax, they took the car offsite to have it stripped first. He didn't want any silicone anywhere in the shop. Smart move.
DG
Paint jobs on houses fail for a number of various reasons.
You didn't mention how old the house is that has the two-year-old failing job nor the age of the houses that were recently painted and now have huge bubbles in the paint film. In order to give any worthy conjectures about what the reasons are on these houses, it would also be helpful to know what the siding material is, whether or not the houses are insulated and whether the houses are equipped with vent fans in the kitchens and baths…….and if those are properly vented to the great-out-of-doors and used as they should be. Moisture migration from the interior of the house is a major reason for paint failures as it breaks the bond of the primer/paint to the substrate.
Is the entire paint job failing or is it mostly restricted to one or two sides of the house? If so, which directional sides …….or which interior rooms are behind the exterior failure?
You mention extensive prep work and I can't help but wonder if that included pressure-washing. If so, how long between the PWing and the prime/paint job? Was there drying weather in this time frame so that the siding was truly dry at application?
Was the siding taken back to the wood during prep or were there numerous layers of old paint still in place?
I've never found a reason to use exotic so-called specialty primers on wood siding (or most others) if it was properly prepped. Never personally heard of the stuff you mention. Kinda sounds like a snake-oil shortcut promising to bypass the rigors and expense of proper prepping……and/or moisture migration control. Doesn’t sound like it did what it promised to do, either.
If a PWer was used, it's very possible that the bubbles were caused by water that still remained in or behind the siding. That would foil good adhesion and would also turn to water vapor behind the paint film, which can readily blow bubbles in the paint film much like what happens with bubblegum.
Did the old paint strip right down to the bare siding? Too many layers of old paint will eventually just self-destruct, period. Also, as the years pass…….. the adhesion of the undermost layer will diminish and many of today's newer paints will shrink down very tight to the surface as they dry, sometimes putting enough stress on the underlying layers to tear them loose from the surface. Sometimes the old paint layers strip all the way to the siding and other times an intermediate layer will fail.
If cheap products were used now or in the past, there's another reason for failure. If a sandwich was made of oil/latex/oil topcoats or vice-versa somewhere down the trail of history……there's another sure explanation/reason for catastrophic paint failure on the exterior of a house.
Any damp basements in these houses?
Was this specialty primer allowed to dry the prescribed period before the topcoats were applied?
Did it rain/dew on the topcoats before it should have?
Were the ambient temperatures within spec during application and cure time?
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro/problem/
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/16/2006 1:47 am ET by goldhiller
Edited 1/16/2006 1:50 am ET by goldhiller
Edited 1/16/2006 2:03 am ET by goldhiller
thank you goldhiller for the thoughtfull response.I'll split these houses into two catagories: The house belonging to the potential customer and the houses which are owned by the company i work for.The potential customer's house.. All i know about it is what I've said in the first post. Perhaps there isnt enough information to make an educated guess.The houses that my boss ownes: The siding is half new(pre-primed) and half old ceder bevel siding. The worst bubbles are on the old siding but on the new siding it is bad in a different way. there are many many small bubbles and if you move your finger around on top of the new paint you can push the bubbles from side to side. Somtimes some white residue appears to be bleeding out (the paint color is dark green).
The damage apprears to be evenly dispersed; not just on any one side of the house.New vapor barrior (tar paper) under new siding and old siding did have tar paper under it as well.most attention getting possible causes: they painted two weeks ago. wether was cold and not wet while they painted but certaintly it had rained many times in the previouse month and there must have moisture in the wood and in the air. Also im here in the Great NW. pretty darned rainy all the time here.The product mask and seal.. They spray it on the house, then paint over it. its made to then peel off of the windows, it saves the step of masking them (hence the product name) but it seems sketchy at best to me. (particularly with our bad lack with this painting crews use of it)I did see them prepping and frankly i was a little suprised. they did some minimal sanding, then sprayed on the mask and seal, then painted 1 coat of topcoat. then added putty and sanded and caulked, then the second layer of topcoat.so no primer over the putty. obviosly that is a problem and they are going to to fix it all, but the bubbling paint is certainly more extensive than just on the spots where there is no putty.Also i noticed that there are bubbles over almost every nail head.thanks and please pardon my poor spelling______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Skyecore,That mask and seal product sounds like a chief suspect. You said it is designed to just peel off the windows and such? To do that it has to have low adhesion coupled with high cohesion (film strength). What I just outlined is a recipe for bubbles, big ones! The rest of their non-prep may be a bit player in this script, but the star looks to be this new product, apparently designed to replace workmanship. Never believe anyone who claims their product will replace workmanship without some price to pay, either now or down the road.Bill
You mentioned cedar beveled siding. Is the smooth side out or the rough side. I have been in the painting buisness for over 20 years and the smooth side out is always problematic no matter what prep or coating is used. The mill finish actually puts a seal on the smooth side, I have tried everytning know to get a good finish on the smooth side, to little or no success. And sometimes new bubbles appear and old ones flatten out. It is really an adhesion problem and a moisture problem combined with a product that refuse to take a finish.
I'm always puzzled a bit when I hear folks say that it's difficult to near impossible keeping paint on cedar siding. Maybe I'm living a charmed life, but I've never had that problem………even though I again encountered that "look out" response this fall from the guys and gals behind the counter here at our local SW store when they found out I was buying that batch of Duration (absolutely love that stuff) for a 1950 cedar-sided house. I then heard the all too familiar mill-glaze explanation/warning again, despite the fact that the SW site itself says that cedar holds paint very well. And they always seem equally puzzled when I tell them I've never had a problem concerning cedar and paint. Fact is, I've not had a paint job fail me yet on smooth-sided cedar siding, even if the paint was only sprayed and not back-brushed. <!----><!----><!---->
I put a cedar beveled siding addition on this house also about 15 years ago and the paint on that has held up a bit better than it has on the rest of the house, despite the fact that it's the unprotected south side of the house to boot……taking full-bore from all that the weather and sun can toss at it.
FWIW, I've always used Valspar alkyd primer. It worked well for me the first time I used it and always has since, so I have no incentive to switch to a different primer, although the folks at SW think I should try one of their primers for this. <G> I simply reply that if their willing to redo the job at their expense in the event of failure……..then I'm game to try a switch. If not, no deal. They always smile and decline my proposal. It's become regular friendly banter between us for years now. <!----><!---->
The manager of that store took me back to her office where she told me that she had a failed paint job on both her sister's cedar- sided house and the unheated garage this last summer. She and her sister did all the work and followed all prep measures by the book. We discussed various potential causes for the failure. The fact that the paint film also failed in an identical signature on the unheated garage pretty much ruled out moisture migration from the interior as the lone culprit and maybe totally. They did however PW both these structures, allowing two weeks for dry-out. That was probably sufficient in this instance cause we had a very droughty summer here. I'm still suspicious though…..and I don't and won't PW wood siding prior to painting……..unless some very extraordinary situation is present. <!----><!---->
Near the bottom of this page you'll see what the Cedar Bureau and the U.S. Forest Products Lab have to say about mill-glaze. I'll take their word for it cause I don't have a lab. <G> <!----><!---->
http://iurl.biz/millglaze
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I live a couple hrs up I - 5 from you and even w/ the best materials and most careful painters ( what are they doing painting in this weather? ) chances are so slim for a successful paint job
dry has to be part of the cycle for surfaces and coatings
Clapboard siding on each and every house we do is always backprimed, and rough side out. Not backpriming may or may not have been the original cause of this problem here, but I think this emphasises the importance of that step, which I find is often ommited.
thanks for the thoughts everyone. Backpriming is not an issue with the new stuff because it is all pre-primed and bubbling is apparant on both sides.Also, my mistake. I thought they sprayed mask and seal over the entire house.. we all thought they did but i spoke with the painters yesterday and they did use the product only on the windows like the product specifies.I think it was too cold and the paint was flashing and diddnt dry properly, then more coats on top of that were put on and that caused the problem. I could be wrong but that is my best guess. Thanks all i learned alot______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Mask and seal is a jasco product, they call it a liquid masking tape. If you search online it says it will peel right off smooth metal surfaces or glass. Sounds like this is why it is bubbling at the nail heads.
There was a good article within the last 18 months in FHB in regards to this which I thought offered knowlegeable solutions. Can't remember the issue but I am sure someone else can help.
http://www.jasco-help.com/info/Mask-Seal.pdf#search='mask%20%26%20seal%20paint'
if its this . . . thats designed for sealing up windows - like around glazing and various little pieces. The pdf says nuttin about spraying an entire house. I suspect theres the guilty party.
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
Don't know about your special coating, but a 'rainscreen' design can insure against all sorts of contributing problems. A rainscreen provides a capillary break with the secondary weather barrier, promotes more even drying of the wood, and allows moisture from inside the structure to exit without 'pushing' the paint off the claps.
The simplest rainscreen for claps is just to apply strips of tarpaper at each stud to create a drainage plane. Backpriming is required as well.
More about rainscreens:
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/siding_rainscreen_question.htm
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/knaeb95c.pdf
http://www.coastalcontractor.net/cgi-bin/article.pl?id=4
FHB #137 (payware): http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00150.asp