Replies

1. 
   dieselpig | Jun 24, 2005 12:29am | #1

   You're looking at it all wrong.... you missed your chance to make some extra money dude.

   Since the trim was installed with a framing nailer, I'm assuming the nails needed either a ton of putty and sanding from being over driven, or needed to be set and puttied, right?

   Who's in charge of the job?  Bring it to the super or GC's attention and tell him what it'll cost to make it "look right".  Bummer for you..... you just finished painting a house and it "doesn't look right" by your own account.  AND IT'S GOT YOUR NAME ALL OVER IT!!!  When someone who's not in the know looks up at that house and sees how crappy it all looks, who do you think they will think screwed the pooch?  The framer or the painter?

2. 
   doodabug | Jun 24, 2005 12:56am | #2

   good foundation guys fix bad excavation, good framers fix bad foundations, good trim carpenters fix bad framing, good painters fix bad carpenters, list goes on. what choice do you have?

   A good painter can make a bad carpenter look good.

   A bad painter can make a good carpenter look bad.

    

1. 
   dieselpig | Jun 24, 2005 01:23am | #3

   Exactly. 

2. 
   JerBear | Jun 24, 2005 02:02am | #4

   "A good painter can make a bad carpenter look good.A bad painter can make a good carpenter look bad."A perfect credo to live by. Thanks for that.

1. 
   zendo | Jun 24, 2005 03:14am | #6

   As a custom painter, thats why I dont blanket bid.  That is custom work, Id bid it, and add in to cover myself, or do it by the hour. 

   Ive seen that many times and can think of many houses that arent filled, I also can think of many with the rust streaks.

   I sand and caulk, this week I was trimming base corners with a chisel and file that didnt line up.  Then I sanded and primed. 

   But, as Diesel said in other words, its a lot more fun than rushing to the next job and bidding ten more. The client is thrilled, and signs and passes the check with a smile.

   Oh and I use Alex plus(35yr) on interior, and Dynaflex (50yr) on exterior, minimum grade.

   On interior nail holes I use wood putty, not caulk.  I hate the marks and lack of sandability of the caulk.  Caulk interior for edges of trim, and expansion joints.

   -zen

   Edited 6/23/2005 8:19 pm ET by zendo

2. 
   mbdyer | Jun 24, 2005 03:28am | #7

   A bad painter still looks like a bad painter, no matter how good the carpenter was.   Bad painter or not, you missed out on some foresight.  Nowhere do I know of is it acceptable to use a frame nailer on trim.  Either you got onto the job too late and or you didn't speak up in time.  If I saw that on the first day, I would have grabbed the GC and explained that 12d commons are not acceptable best practices for trim and that you must charge extra for the bondo work.  Sheesh, a framing nailer on trim?  Can you spell backcharge?

   I'm a trimmer and I try to work with the painter from day one.  I tell him to holler if he comes across unset nails or poorly sanded scarf joints.  If a miter is open I want to hear about it at once.  Hey things get missed and most pro painters know this.  I've found that from talking to them from day one that things work smoothly.  They tell me if there's a problem quick when it's easy to fix.  I'd spent a coupla years as a painter so I'm not afraid to pick up a brush and cut in a messed up joint after they've put down a coat.  Often if I do that once they'll work with me everafter.  Communication and recon.  Get onto the job as soon as you can and walk around and talk to the tradesmen there even before your crew gets onsite.  Sometimes a quiet word on the side to someone can save thousands in dollars, weeks of man-hours and bottles of aspirin.

3. 
   quicksilver | Jun 24, 2005 03:08am | #5

   Being married to a painter who has painted my work for years, I've learned to be sympathetic to painters. And have respect for them because I want them to make my work look as good as possible. The nail set thing I used to think: Just set the nail. What's the big deal? But they're running trim, hopefully have a rhythm going and they got to stop go get a hammer and nail set because I forgot to set a nail. So I try not to miss any, I run my hands over all the trim when I'm making my punch list. As far as what's their job and what's ours: Carpenters responsibility to sand to flush if need be, fix any big blowouts, cracks or chips. Anything after that is them. Good finish carpentry makes for a quality paint job. Their job is really dependant on prep work. Where our job is dependent on prep to make our day go smoother. sloppy prep, a frustrating day can still yield acceptable carpentry. But for a painter who is not disciplined in prep, their work just shows it.

   Edited 6/23/2005 8:25 pm ET by quicksilver

1. 
   doodabug | Jun 24, 2005 11:48pm | #16

   I think that is what I said

1. 
   quicksilver | Jun 25, 2005 02:08am | #19

   Only backing you.the proof is in the pudding

4. 
   Piffin | Jun 24, 2005 03:41am | #8

   There's a whole load of truth in what you say, but to go one step further - The best painters can choose their jobs and not have to work behind slobs and cover up for them.
   And they are always busy. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   zendo | Jun 24, 2005 03:48am | #9

   whoop whoop!

   piffin's put the smack down.

   -zen

2. 
   doodabug | Jun 24, 2005 11:55pm | #17

   That is true. I don't know if jmoonret is in that position. For all I know he may be a apprentice and not have that choice. Let him vent, I don't blame him.

3. 
   dustinf | Jun 24, 2005 03:53am | #10

   As soon as you saw the problem, you should have spoke up.  That said, unless the GC is a complete idiot, he saw the problem, before you arrived.  What transpires after that is up to you, if you are OK putting your name on that paint job, more power to you.

   I try to work with the painters as much as possible.  Make sure 99% of the nails are set.  Don't nail anything on without at least 1 finish coat.  Never go crazy with nails, just enough to get the job done.  In return he looks out for me.  Sometimes he'll leave his stage set up, or he'll notice a door that needs tweaked. 

   The way I figure is: what goes around, comes around.

4. 
   piko | Jun 24, 2005 04:09am | #11

   Why just dump on carpenters - there's bl**dy electricians that cut off the pigtails and leave stripped stuff around. Oh, yes, and their oily fingerprints when they put the plates on. Or drywallers who leave their dust and cobs of mud. Or the plumber, or the cabinet installer lowering the countertop into too tight a space.  Or the carpet layer's scratch-marks. Heck I hate to be the last guy in, cleaning up after all the klutzes that don't think beyond their job.

   cheers

   ***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***

1. 
   mbdyer | Jun 24, 2005 05:50am | #12

   As a cabinet/countertop installer I must ask:  How do you set a counter where the backside is longer than the frontside edge, the wall cabs had to be installed already, and at least one end wall leans in on the counter edge?  We use medical X-rays to shoehorn those "U" shaped bastards in but to think counters can go in without scuffing the walls is like thinking a concrete formed foundation cures level.   Rrriiiiggghhhtttt...   Or did you want a 3/8" to nothing caulk joint?  In that case...

1. 
   piko | Jun 24, 2005 06:56am | #13

   I posted the previous as a painter - I'll answer this as an installer. Yes, there are impossibles out there, we do the best we can. We have endcap[s we can plane down, true, but there will always be something. I've even cut out the d/w - and I wear that hat too. That's why I, wearing my painter's hat, go back and cover with the 1/4" paint.cheers

   ***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***

5. 
   McFish | Jun 24, 2005 05:13pm | #14

       "A little putty and a little paint,  makes a carpenter what he aint"

6. 
   maverick | Jun 24, 2005 10:18pm | #15

   He might have used a siding nailer for the trim. The nail heads are larger than finish nails or ring shank hand nails, but acceptable as long as they're not set too deep.

   I always go back and set nails, sand flush if need be or caulk any wide gaps I'm not proud of. The rest is up to the painter.

   I just finished a coffered cieling so I left my baker (staging) there for the painter to use. I'm thinking he'll show his appreciation by doing a great job.

1. 
   doodabug | Jun 25, 2005 12:05am | #18

   The guy probably used a clipped head framing nailer and the heads are crooked and half the head is set and the other half is proud 1/8. He needs to vent and should. I have seen that kind of work. I hand nail all exterior trim. Some people want head flush, some people want them set and filled.

7. 
   bruceb | Jun 25, 2005 03:21pm | #20

   Gentlemen,

                          I'm willing to bet that the Framing Nailer was shooting SOme variety of Electro-Galvinized 10 or 12d nail. In some places that is a pretty common and accepted practice. Before you respond notice I didn't say a good practice, but a common one.

                         Even more so with the new synthetic materials. Most likely the framer did the exterior trim. Hew was either fastest or the lowest bidder. Neither of which allowed for the hand driving of hot dipped button head's.

                        If I were to have to continue to work with this builder I would ask if it was an accepted practice. If he says yes, then you need to decide if you want to continue to work with him. If you do maybe you could ask him to have his framer set his guns up better so as to leave just a very shallow dimple the size of the nail head that you can bondo or water putty much easier.

                    Hate to say it but this is the state of the trade and industry in general in this hot market.

1. 
   dieselpig | Jun 25, 2005 05:32pm | #21

   It sounds like this painter is either working on a lower-end spec house or possibly in a development of cookie-cutters.  Just a guess and I certainly could be wrong.

   That being said, I don't think it is fair or accurate to use situations like this as a barometer for the "state of the trade and industry in general in this hot market. "

   What has been described in the original poster's text is a common and deemed "acceptable practice" by some, as you have stated.  That's an entirely different market than "Fine Homebuilding".  It's bread and butter for an awful lot of tradesmen out there and I've worked in similar situations for my previous employer.  It was stuff like this that made me want to strike out on my own and seek a better market where quality was deemed as 'valuable', as opposed to quantity.  And I've done just that.

   NEWSFLASH....Quality craftsmanship and building practices are alive and well, but you won't find them if you're looking in the wrong places.  You can't be a mechanic who wants to work on Caddys and Land Rovers and be looking for a job at the Hyundai dealership. 

   I think that to say poor building practices are "the state of the trade and industry" is not only insulting, but rather narrow minded.  I'm a framer and I install tons of exterior trim.  I use a coil siding nailer and install all the nail heads flush to the surface.  And, holy crap, I actually swap the waffle head out of my belt for a finish hammer.  I also sand my scarf joints if I'm unhappy with them and glue joints that will see a good deal of weather.  But don't dare ask me for a square foot price or try to tell me what you're paying per house.  It doesn't jive.  Some are willing to pay for quality, others are only willing to pay for quantity.   Just different markets is all.

   Good on the original poster for wanting to produce a quality product.  But I still say he screwed up by not correcting the situation before he signed his name on it.  As a framer, I see foundations that are out of whack all the time.... sometimes it's just because a good builder tried a new sub or had an old sub on a bad day.  It happens.  But it's now my choice to take the time ($) to correct the problem or just go ahead and build an out of square house with out of level floors..... and park my truck with my name on it out front for the next month. 

1. 
   bruceb | Jun 25, 2005 09:30pm | #22

   Dieselpig,

                   While everythign you said may be true, I can drive no more than 15 Min from me and find houses over the $1m mark with pretty much the same situation he described. another 30 Min and I can find them over the $2M mark, same. That is not to say that all houses are like that, but far too many. As a framer I always insisted on button heads for exterior trim. I hear that a siding nailer is just as good but have never used one.

                    My cousin is in the Boston area and I understand it is much different then here. But for the time being, around here anyway, The true craftsmen and custom builders have been replaced by big builders building big houses poorly. And, electro-galvinized nails out of one of the $249 home depot special bostich stick nailers is not at all an uncommon site on exterior trim. Doesn't make it right, it just happens.

                By the way, how much use to you get out of that waffle head? I only ever used one for about the first year I framed and then it sat in my tool box. I used, and still do when the occassion arises a smooth faced 20 oz Estwing for everything.

1. 
   dieselpig | Jun 28, 2005 05:30am | #24

    

               By the way, how much use to you get out of that waffle head? I only ever used one for about the first year I framed and then it sat in my tool box. I used, and still do when the occassion arises a smooth faced 20 oz Estwing for everything.

   I still use the waffle head daily... and quite a bit at that.  It's a 16 oz titanium.... a Vaughn Ti-Tech with a hickory handle.  Nice hammer.  The titanium is nice on my tender elbows.  ;)  I actually still drive a lot of hand nails because of the way I run my crew.  If I'm not at the horses cutting the roof or running around doing layout,  there's a good chance I'm bouncing around taking care of knick-knacks and don't want to drag a gun all over the house.

   I really like hand-nailing.  I love the freedom of not having the 'leash'.  Great when walking the top plates.  If my guys are sheathing walls, or the roof, or the deck and I'm caught up, I'll jump in start setting sheets with handnails and let the guys keep their rhythm behind me nailing it off.    Something sweet about sinking handnails.

2. 
   quicksilver | Jun 26, 2005 12:29am | #23

   It sure is good to hear this attitude from someone like myself still hopefully in the first half of our careers. I aggree with you 99%. I still think that there are way to many tradesmen versed in substandard practices working on higher end projects. But as long as there is younger guys with this attitude the trades may be safe another generation. Good for you. . . there's nothin' like a handful of spikes is there?.

1. 
   dieselpig | Jun 28, 2005 05:40am | #25

   I like the fact that guys like you, Jon Blakemore, and Tim Uhler hang around here.  I think we're all at similar ages and similar points in our careers.  Most of the tradesmen that I know personally and that I really respect (for their work and knowledge) are much older than me. 

   It's nice to find true "peers" with similar goals and expectations... even if it is on the net.  Seems too many of the guys in the trades around our age are more interested in bong hits and looking good at the gym than they are in their careers.  To each his own, I guess.  But, at least I know I'm not the only carpenter-geek!  :)

   And yeah.... a handful of sixteens and your favorite swatter can make things look a whole lot brighter.  Good therapy.

1. 
   Pierre1 | Jun 28, 2005 07:23am | #26

   Good post, dieselpig.

   Lots of consciencious carps to learn from here.

   Thanks to them all, and also to those that ask the questions.