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Discussion Forum

Painting a mahogany door (exterior)

jazzdogg | Posted in General Discussion on May 8, 2004 08:07am

I’m a “Knothead” whose cabinet and furniture making skills exceed my carpentry and homebuilding skills and I need your help.

A friend has asked me to refinish a pair of [Honduras?] mahogany frame & panel entry doors. They face west and were varnished more than ten years ago. The interiors are in good shape and will retain their beautiful mahogany finish.

However, she wants to paint the exteriors a light color to reflect the heat and avoid yearly maintenance of exterior varnish. The wood and joinery are in good condition. I’ve scraped the failed varnish down to bare wood on most of the surfaces, but the varnish is still intact and clinging tenaciously in the areas protected from the sun.

1: Where the varnish is still intact, what prep do you suggest?

2. Do you recommend pore filler before priming?

3. For products, do you recomend oil-based primer and 100% acrylic latex top coats?

I appreciate your guidance,

-Jazzdogg-

Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t, you’re right.

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  1. RW | May 08, 2004 09:40pm | #1

    1: Where the varnish is still intact, what prep do you suggest?  Sand it for tooth. If it isn't coming off, you ought to be able to go over it ok.

    2. Do you recommend pore filler before priming? Not really. Between the primer and two top coats, you have enough solids content in the paint that your pores aren't going to show anymore. Understandable concern with lacquer. Moot here. (Or, as Joey would say, a moo point. heh.)

    3. For products, do you recomend oil-based primer and 100% acrylic latex top coats? Typically yes. The oil, curing slower, has more chance to bite into the wood. This is going to be the case where you've hit new wood. It's also why you want the varnish to have tooth. You shouldn't have compatibility issues, but reading the label, cheap insurance. The Zinnser stuff with shellac in it - also not a bad idea. You get the added bonus of sealing anything leftover under the paint job.

    Don't ask how many hail Marys you get for putting paint on Honduran Mahogany though.

    "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

    1. User avater
      jazzdogg | May 08, 2004 10:27pm | #2

      "Don't ask how many hail Marys you get for putting paint on Honduran Mahogany though."

      RW,

      Thanks for the feedback. As to the hail Marys, I think there are only two ways I could possibly convince my friend to go with the kind of finish I'd use: (1) to go ahead and give her a "boat quality" mahogany finish and pray that she loves the look enough to live with it, despite her stated wishes, or; (2) offer to maintain the finish in perpetuity on my dime. In either case, it'd be a roll of the dice with the odds distinctly in her favor.

      Since there's no way, that I know of, to apply paint over a long-oil finish, there's no way I could give her a boat finish without the risk of having to strip the door and start from scratch if she didn't like my "surprise."

      Since you agree that an oil-based primer is desirable, I may go ahead and wipe down the door with mineral spirits (with her watching) after I've sanded the door and hope she falls in love with the sneak preview of a "natural" finish. Can the oil-based primer be clear? How about priming with shellac?

      Needless to say, I'm willing to try persuasion, charm, guilt, shame, or virtually any other ethical tactic that's likely to result in showing off the mahogany before I have to resort to primer and paint.

      It's her house and her dime...

      -Jazzdogg-

      Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

      Edited 5/8/2004 3:31 pm ET by jazzdogg

      1. RW | May 09, 2004 03:45am | #3

        I understand completely. Sometimes right and wrong don't enter the equation. The customer wants it, the customer is paying for it, you've given your two cents, now shut up and do it their way. Hey. Life happens.

        As for clear oil based primers . . . uh. Sure. Never heard of a clear paint, but one never knows what products linger out there. I'd argue that pigment is going to add to the protection of the wood itself, but you're going to attain that with top coats.

        Priming with shellac - in my mind, bad policy. Shellac outside. But I tested it once. The theory at the time was thus: Some exterior primers have shellac in them to aid in their ability to form an effective barrier. While shellac in and of itself isn't great water protection, someone thinks that mixed with paint its fine, and ergo the argument could be made that under paint or another finish it could be fine. I paid real good attention to sealing everything up with the top coats, doing as best I could to make sure nothing could get at the shellac. The end result, just over 3 years down the road - the door looks great still. Nothing is failing. It has in its favor a significant overhang and very good protection from direct sunlight (save for the end of winter days) and direct rain.  So it can work, but I'm qualifying saying that because I'm still not convinced myself. Ask me again in another decade.

        So do your best at convincing. Say your prayers at bedtime, and cross your heart before you pull that brush out and hope for forgiveness. You're right. Her dime, her call. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

        1. User avater
          jazzdogg | May 09, 2004 03:54am | #4

          RW,

          Thanks for responding. Sometimes I wonder exactly where the proverbial "fine line" is that separates a craftsman performing a job for which he's being paid and a lowly money-grubbing so-and-so who'll do virtually anything for money. Ha, ha.

          I recall one of my first commissions - a small cherry cabinet with a sanded-in oil finish. It glowed from the oil and wax - the client thanked me profusely, paid me promptly, and referred several clients to me over the following months. In fact, she invited me to her Christmas party, where I was chagrined to find that she'd painted the cabinet with a "shabby chic" crackle finish.

          Her dime, her call.-Jazzdogg-

          Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

          1. RW | May 09, 2004 06:15am | #5

            While we're wandering slowly off topic

            Ever consider the idea that finishing and cooking, separate entities that they are, really share some distinct similarities inasmuch as what it takes to make a good chef or a good finisher? One of those low grade psychobabble things that goes through my head every now and then. But I think it's true. Any monkey can open a cookbook and add 1 C sugar, 2 eggs . . . but a good cook. That's someone who knows texture. They know how to tweak something. They sense the humidity on a given day and adjust the cook time just a little. Some people can take cake mix and do marvels. Some take world famous recipies and end up ordering pizza.

            I think finishing is the same. It's experimentation, it's art, it's science, it's more than reading a book or opening a can of Minwax. It's trying something out and watching the sheen change as the finish cures, and knowing in your head that something, you can't put your finger on it yet, isn't quite where you want it. You know while the solvent evaporates that you'll sand this one down and try it a little different in the morning.

            Moreover, it's that sense when you really feel like you've gotten a reasonable grasp on things - the meringue that stands tall, the perfect mouse, or that oil finish with what can only be called an intangible ability to mystify the observer - it is when you get on your pedestal and pat your back that you realise the majority of the buying population doesn't know what a creme broulee is and would just as soon have a Big Mac anyway.

            Yup. Her dime. Bummer man."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

          2. User avater
            jazzdogg | May 09, 2004 07:23am | #6

            "Ever consider the idea that finishing and cooking... really share some distinct similarities..."

            RW,

            Like cooking (improvisation propelled by knowledge, experience, and creativity) versus baking (mixing pre-ordained quantities according to a formula).

            Like designing, milling, and finishing a piece that evolves constantly throughout the dynamic process of conception and execution versus assembling a piece from Ikea.

            No, I have no idea what you're talking about. Ha, ha.

            I once spent a week on a 60' houseboat with some friends and a few folks I'd never met before. Each of were assigned culinary responsibilites for a given day. On my day, I took great pains to make dishes requested by my friends, but with enough nuance to surprise and delight.

            One of my side dishes was "my" carbonara that my best friend and his wife specifically asked me to prepare. A few of the newcomers approached me while I was cooking, asked what I was making, and wondered whether I would make plain pasta with margarine for them...

            ...like painting a pair of Hunduras mahogany entry doors white...

            -Jazzdogg-

            Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

          3. RW | May 09, 2004 09:24am | #7

            I'd say we're pretty much on the same wavelength.

            Hmm. Logic at this point would dictate you probably need to see a doc and get medicated. ;->"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

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