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Painting a Victorian

| Posted in General Discussion on January 31, 2005 02:37am

Fellow owners of Victorian houses, I need painting advice. 

My house in Texas was built in 1895, and has cypress clapboard siding.  The siding is in good shape, not particularly weathered and not splitting, but just doesn’t hold paint well.   The paint flakes off down to the bare wood, worst on the west side which gets the strongest sun, but to a lesser extent all over the house.  The paint also looks chalky, despite being only 3 years old.  In the 5 years I’ve owned the house, it has been painted twice, and now needs painting again.  Obviously, this is a problem!

The 2 painters I’ve talked to about this upcoming job have differing theories on why the paint has failed.  Both think the previous painter’s prep wasn’t thorough enough,  which I think is true.  However, one painter goes on to say that old cypress sometimes de-laminates, so that the problem is not just that the paint is letting go of the wood, but that the top micro-layer of wood is letting go of the wood beneath.  He doesn’t think moisture has anything to do with the problem.  Has anyone heard of this?  The other painter pooh-poohs this theory, and says that the problem is caused by moisture coming from inside the house.  The house has no vapor barrier or insulation, so there is nothing between the sheetrock-and-1×4 interior walls and the exterior clapboards.  There is no evidence of mold or other water damage inside or out.  Previous painters, however, did caulk along the horizontal clapboard overlap joints, which could be contributing to a problem of moisture in the walls, if there is such a problem.  The damage is not worse outside kitchen/bath areas than elsewhere.

Painter A (the de-lamination one) proposes to wash, scrape aggressively, prime with a latex primer, and paint with Sherwin Williams most expensive latex (ca. $42/gallon), which is theoretically a 30-year paint, because it should hold up the longest.

Painter B (the moisture one) proposes to wash, sand with a power sander using 24 grit paper, prime twice with Zinsser Peel Stop followed by Zinsser Cover Stain, then paint with Kelly Moore 1240 Acry-Shield (ca. $17/gallon).  His theory is that these primers and this cheaper paint are more breathable, so will not trap moisture. 

Which approach sounds more reasonable?  The 2 painters’ time estimates and bids are comparable, so my decision between them isn’t cost-driven.  I just don’t want to do this again in 3 years!

Thanks in advance for advice and words of comfort.

Sue2

 

 

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Replies

  1. WayneL5 | Jan 31, 2005 03:52am | #1

    The US Forest Products Laboratory says in their literature that bare wood can weather in as little as 2 to 3 weeks enough to have a measurable effect on the durability of subsequently applied paint.  So, I'm inclined to think that sanding is the better preparation.  The primer must be applied within a week or two, even if it means it is done in stages.

    The author of the book Paint in America, relying on considerable research, says that acrylic latex paints last longer than oil based paints because they remain flexible longer and breathe to release some trapped moisture.  So, I would definitely not use any oil based products if you want the longest life.

    I am not familiar with the specific paints you mentioned.  I have used Zinsser's Mildew-Proof Bathroom Paint a number of times and found it to be an excellent product.  It's really grippy and forms quite a durable film.  If their other products are as good it would be a good choice.

  2. User avater
    goldhiller | Jan 31, 2005 05:20am | #2

    Off the cuff, without seeing the situation firsthand and not knowing how much moisture is generated in the house......I would choose neither of those approaches.

    By "wash", do these contactors intend to whip out ye ol' pressure washer? Big no-no on wood claps. At the very least, you'll drive moisture into the wood and behind the claps. And there it is to ruin the adhesion of the new paint job.

    Scraping alone will not likely be sufficient in this instance. Sanding is defintiely in order, but 24 grit paper is WAY too coarse/aggressive. Depending, I might start at 60 grit as the very coarsest and would finish up with 120.

    I'd use a quality oil-based primer and topcoat with two coats of the Sherwin-Williams Duration. (I think this is the paint you are talking about). Although the Duration is "self-priming", why pay $42 a gallon for primer?

    You might also consider calling the SW tech line or having your local store reps call them to see what the current recommendations are for painting cypress.

    You might also stick the pins of a moisture meter in the wood siding to determine if it's really in a suitable condition to paint when the contractor is wanting to proceed.

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
  3. Piffin | Jan 31, 2005 07:31am | #3

    Goldhiller just saved me a lot of typing. I would add that you should never caulk the horizontal lapps in this siding. That can trp moisture and lead to early failure. The power wash idea is wrong too, like he says.

    You have said that it has been flaking off. i would like to be specific about terms here. Moisture that drives paint off from behind usulaly cuases blistering - almost in sheets. Flaking to me indicates separation of the paint from itself and coming off in smaller chips.

    I would not dream of painting this wood without scraping the loose and then sanding to at least 100 grit. Reasons are plentiful and not just to do with appeaarances. Wood has a natural mill glaze from the git go, a waxy film on the surface from the heat of the machinery. you probably don't have much of this left, but there are tanins in cedars, redwoods and cyprus that make it hard for paints to adhere. Some paint companies make primers specially formulated for those woods that you and your painter can investigate. But sanding helps remove that surface glaze and grant a mechanical "tooth" for bonding.

    Next up - the UV rays from the sun ( i'm sure you get a little of that down there) will damage both wood fibres and primer paints within thirty days. The painter should tackle a section at a time , doing the prep work sanding and then prime preferably the same day, but no longer thana week later. Then he can wait to do the finish coats within a month. the finish should be brushed on when the siding is dry and clean. You don't want the residue of a dust storm or a shower or dew interfering with the bond. That means if the previous painter sprayed the paint after a dust storm rolled through, you now have an idea why it failed. Maybe.

    I lean to choosing the second painter, but convincing him to use a better prep process and going to finer sandpaper. I like oil primers and finishes both, but latex is fine too. It will breathe better if interior moisture is part of the problem.

    Your painter will balk at what sounds like extra work, but this is how the better house painters here do it, and generally achieve a ten year job in a challenging coastal environmet.

    Finally, Good luck

     

     

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  4. JamesDuHamel | Jan 31, 2005 07:55am | #4

    I live in Southeast Texas, near the coast. I have had to deal with this same problem several times before.

    First of all, cyprus ain't the best wood in the world for taking paint. The first painter was in the right ballpark about the problems it has with taking paint. If it is prepped right, and if the moisture problem is dealt with, then it does ok. Not great in my book, but ok. You may have a much better grade of cyprus siding than the stuff I have had to deal with around here, but the stuff here really stinks in quality. (the old stuff, not new)

    Get the old paint off as much as possible, sand the wood (no pressure washer at all - if these guys insist on it, get another painter). Moisture movement in these old houses around here require that the wood siding can breathe. I have seen painters seal everything up tight, and cause an even bigger problem. Make sure that the siding is nailed tight to the house, but able to breathe. Sealants in your case (na barrier) lead to trapped moisture, which leads to a paint problem.

    I personally use Zinsser brand Bullseye 1-2-3 primer on the bare wood (two good coats - the siding ought to look like it has been painted solid white when you have two good coats. If it looks kinda opaque, it wasn't primed very well) The primer chemically bonds itself to the wood, and the top coat of paint chemically bonds itself to the primer. If the primer is good and solid, the top coat will last for a long time. If the primer coat is bad, everything attached to it (like the top coat) will fail also. The primer relies on the surface that it is attached to (or applied to) to be in good shape, and sound.

    Top coat (and primer) is a matter of preference for the painter. I personally give a 3 year warranty against paint failure, so I have a specific brand and type that I use. I insist on it if the warranty is to be intact. I also insist on doing whatever I think is absolutely necessary to insure a good, properly prepped surface, with all exisitng paint problems taken care of (I do that part too). If I am not allowed to fix the existing problems that caused the paint to fail in the first place, I won't do the job. But that's just me.

    I am not going to recommend a brand, but acrylic enamel is my choice for type. Brands are more a preference for the painter, so go with whatever the painter you hire suggests.

    This is all just my humble opinion, based on the information presented, and the similar types of houses that I have worked on before.

    James DuHamel

    He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!

    "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36

    http://www.godsfreemusic.com

    1. johnharkins | Jan 31, 2005 12:04pm | #5

      as usual you have very fine feedback to consider
      while I'm waiting for my son to finish up his geometry I'll add and interject a few ideas of my own
      I'm hoping third time is the charm bercause I'm thinking you've been severely shortchanged w/ your two previous paintings and hopefully everyone gets the cypress right this time
      your local high school wrestling team is not training in your residence is it?
      please be in an ideal climatic situation where drying is not an issue
      can't help but think your victorian is toward three stories so yes go w/ a course grit like 24 for the upper story, 40 on the mid section and 60 down where siding is more readily observed; get it lookin good THEN you wash it w/ a mixyure of tsp and water or vinegar and water lightly scrubbing w/ a brush w/ good flooding mist top to bottom
      in southern Cal during an east wind and you could paint the next day - more humidity etc may have to wait a week / siding has to be dry
      load up the hand pad sander for some inevitable finer sanding after washing and go w/ any of the coating methods here and you should have a good shot
      one more idea would be to be in the middle of the spectrum flat to gloss on siding - both give away more of the surface terrain than semigloss

  5. User avater
    goldhiller | Feb 03, 2005 06:47pm | #6

    As Piffin said, if you don't have an interior mositure problem or problems with missing or deteriorated window and door flashings or other preoblem that would allow water to enter behind the siding........then you shouldn't have extraordinary problems getting paint to adhere to your cypress so long as it's properly prepped, primed and then painted in a timely fashion.

    SW Duration is warranted against peeling or flaking for as long as you own the home...if properly applied to a dry prepped surface. Note that there is no warranty against the paint simply wearing away over time. Hence for the longest life expectancy, two coats are in order. And I believe that to meet warranty requirements, you must apply two coats. I used it here for the first time about 8 years ago. House here is 1875 with the original wood claps. Couldn't be happier with the result.

    Here's some sources for info about cypress and some painting recommendations.

    http://www.rainbowplay.com/redwood_cedar_cypress.shtml

    http://www.outdoor-furniture-us.web.com/cypress.htm

    http://www.righteouswoods.net/cypress.html

    Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
    1. Sue2 | Feb 03, 2005 09:08pm | #7

      Thanks for the great links and the advice.   It's interesting that a couple of the sites specifically mention the high paint-holding ability of cypress.  Yesterday I pulled off several large flakes of paint from my siding (down to bare wood) and I couldn't see any evidence of wood fibres on the back, even with a magnifier, so I'm inclined to think that the painter who blamed delamination may be mistaken. 

      How would you diagnose whether there's a problem with moisture coming from inside through the walls?  As I said before, there is no visible evidence of decay, mold, etc. either inside or out to suggest a problem.  Something else I should look for?

      Goldhiller, I'm glad to hear of your success with Duration, as that's the direction I'm leaning.  I was somewhat taken aback when I visited Sherwin Williams yesterday to ask about their "life-time warranty" on it--maybe it was just the salesman I happened to encounter, but his answer could best be summarized as "our paint doesn't fail, your house fails" and I couldn't get a straight answer on how that determination would be made in the event of a problem.  Since SW is the one who determines what failed, it struck me as rather like asking the defendant in a trial to determine who's guilty!  Anybody else have experience with this to share?

      Sue2 

      1. User avater
        goldhiller | Feb 04, 2005 04:49am | #9

        Couple questions for ya.Is the paint on your house failing the worse dwon low and then there's less failure higher up? Or is the failure pretty much uniform except that the sides that get the most sun have greater problems?Is your house balloon-framed? Dirt basement or concrete? Damp down there or not really?http://www.sherwin.com/Contractors/res-com/troubleshooting/default1.aspKnowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

        1. Sue2 | Feb 04, 2005 04:26pm | #10

          The failure rate on the siding seems to be pretty much the same regardless of altitude on the house.  The west side is by far the worst, followed by the east, then south, then north (just what you'd expect, I guess).  When I compare the paint to the pix on the website you sent below, I'd characterize what's happening on the siding as different from what's going on with the trim.  The siding shows areas that look like the pictures of alligatoring, blistering and peeling.  Every place I picked at the failing paint, it came off down to bare wood.  There do not appear to be a great many coats; in fact, even with a magnifier I can only discern 3 colors (an old yellow layer, a layer of white primer, and the current light gray/blue).  The trim appears to be flaking rather than any of the above problems--the bits of failed paint are much smaller and narrower and do follow the grain lines, so that from a distance such as the ground to the dark blue/gray 2nd floor gable trim the effect is that the paint is streaky.  Up close you can see the alternating areas of paint and bare wood.

          The house is balloon-framed, but does not have a basement (Texas houses rarely do).  It sits about 2 1/2 feel off the ground on piers, has a brick/stucco "skirt" with vents and is dry as dust underneath--at least so the plumber, AC guy and termite inspector tell me--I'm not crawling under there!

          Sue2

          1. Pnut | Feb 04, 2005 06:27pm | #11

            Two things can be equally true:  It is possible that moisture is a problem AND it is possible that that the wood is partially delaminating.  I have come to some conclusions and suggestions when it comes to painting wooden Victorians:

            Conclusions:

            Wood expands, contracts, cracks, and delaminates--and this plays havoc on paint.

            Wood abosorbs and releases moisture--and this plays havoc on paint.

            Wood will provide a medium for rot, mildew, and other creepy crawly things--and this plays havoc on paint.

            Wooden houses are like wooden boats:  You provide the best protection you can, but understand that they are in need of constant upkeep and that the finish won't last forever.

            Paint is like roofing material--at some point it is best to take it all off instead of continuing to put layer upon layer...and if the underlayment is in poor shape something must be done about that too...

            Suggestions (for the best possible prep/paint job)

            Take everything off--down to bare wood, and remove all putty, fillers etc.  Where there are cracks, holes, etc. remove the rotted/punky wood using a Dremel like tool to get to good solid wood.

            Coat the wood with Smith & Co. Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer (CPES).  This product is used in the wooden boat industry--Let the wood soak up as much as possible (which in some cases can be very extensive).  This stuff is very expensive and smelly, but it does an incredible job of preparing the wood for paint--it helps solidify the wood (to help prevent cracking and delaminating).  It helps remove moisture out of the wood (and helps from moisture entering in the future).  It helps kill and prevent rot/mildew now and in the future.  Since it penetrates into the wood, it helps provide a better "hold" to the wood when paint is applied.

            Fill all cracks, nail holes, etc. with Smith & Co.  "Fill-it"  epoxy.  Painters like to use spackle, caulk or other fillers, but they don't work so well on wooden house, because the don't adhere well to the wood, and the don't expand and contract too well...so when the wood moves, cracks form.  And when cracks form...water gets in.  This is minimized with this product.

            Sand the epoxy down and recoat with CPES (just those parts covered with the Fill-it).  You will be amazed at how imperfections can disappear using this method.  Your "underlayment" is now about as good as it will every be....

            The CPES provides a lot of "grip" for the next coats--2 coats of oil based primer (Zinnser is a good product).

            Then 2 coats of a high quality 100% acrylic paint (I like Pratt & Lambert).

            When I think of wood being exposed to harsh environments--I can't think of any much worse than a wooden sailboat on the ocean...so if we treat our wooden home like a wooden boat (rather than a stucco palace), you will see results that last longer....But maintaing a wooden boat is expensive...and to do it right will cost both in time and materials...

            Good luck

          2. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 04, 2005 07:29pm | #12

            Let's see. IIRC, you said this house is an 1895 model. And there's only 3 discernible layers of paint/primer. This would suggest to me that the siding has benn replaced somewhere along the line. I'd think (with the info at hand)that either the siding was left to weather a bit too long before priming and painting occurred and/or a cheap primer was used. The subsequent coats of paint are no more sound than the original bond of the underlying primer. I like to think that if you get back to sound wood and use quality materials applied appropriately, you'll get a lasting result this time. The trim/casings and such, sound like they are likely still the original stock and are bearing numerous coats of exhausted oil paint with some latex topcoats, perhaps. Same holds true here as far as bonding goes. It's no better than whats underneath. I'd remove all that paint and get back to sound wood. Sounds like you're in for the expense of some extensive paint removal and sanding, but a quickie cheaper job isn't apt to last. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

  6. KurtH | Feb 03, 2005 09:28pm | #8

    First, make sure there is adequate dust control when sanding. There is probably enough lead on the outside of your house to poison half the kids in Texas.

    Latex primers work fine IF the surface is clean and solid. That means all the sanding dust must be removed. Any wood that has been exposed to the sun for more than a few days must be sanded to remove the damaged wood fibers. The first painter's "delamination theory" sounds similar to sun damage problems. In that case or if there is sun damage, I would use an oil primer.

    I have a house with cedar lap siding which had not been painted for many years, I would guess forty or more years. Any ways, it had probably less than 5% paint coverage. The claps were weathered gray, badly cupped and deeply cracked. I power washed (I know, I shouldn't have done that but I gave it plenty of drying time) to remove the rest of the chalky paint residue and the worst of the damaged paint fibers. It was still gray in appearance. Because of the cupping, sanding would have been out of the question. I primed with an oil primer mixed with Penetrol. I sprayed it on and brushed it in as heavy as I could without it dripping. The oils will soak into the wood, penetrating through the damaged, porous surface to the more solid material underneath. Latex primer sits on the surface and acts like a glue and thus fails if the surface is not sound. I followed with one coat of a good latex paint. I probably should have used two top coats but I haven't gotten around to that yet. Seven years later and it is still in excellent condition except for a few spots where there was old paint which since has failed.

    On another building with many coats of old oil base paint which is badly peeling, cracking, etc. I removed the old paint and used a latex primer and two coats of latex paint. This paint job, although less than four years old is failing. I attribute it to the latex primer with too much dust and sun damaged wood. I wish I had used the oil primer there too.

    If the paint is chalking after three years, even in the hot Texas sun, it probably is oil based paint which does not hold up well in the sun or maybe a super cheap Latex.

    I would recommend that you look at how the current paint job is failing. Assuming that it has many layers of paint with areas that have peeled or been scraped with the recent paint jobs look and see where the current failures are. If it is primarily the old, thick areas, I think it is likely due to the heavy, brittle nature of the many layers of old paint and the only thing that will stop it from continuing to fail is to completely remove the old paint layers. If it is primarily the repainted areas with only a thin layer of paint, then I would blame the poor prep & priming of the past painters.

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