Painting – how long should it take…
I’ve been rehabbing a 2500 sq ft house for a while and recently I started the painting. I have a collection of Purdy cut brushes and while I’m fairly good in terms of keeping a straight edge, I think I’m a bit slow.
In order to speed things up, I started using one of those edging pads with the little wheels on it. Once I got the hang of how much paint to put on it, it worked great. I know it’s a crutch, but sometimes you just want to get a job over with. I’d pick up one of my Purdy’s, work with it for a while and think “Dang! this is slow” and go back to the pad.
Could any of you painting pros give me an idea of how long it should take to cut around a stained & varnished door (and do a good job) for example?
How about cutting around the trim and ceiling in an average 10 x 12 room with 2 stained/varnished doors and a window?
Replies
A door? Bout 30 seconds.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Mostly I paint. I don't think I'm slow, but I'm certainly not the fastest.
I would be amazed if anyone could do a nice job cutting around a door in 30 seconds with a brush (unless we're talking exterior painting). It would probably take me a few minutes. Definitely less than 5. However, for stained trim, I would probably use painter's tape. I can cut a pretty fine line, but it will never be as crisp as using tape. The key to using tape on trim is to let the tape curve ever so slightly onto the wall. By slightly, I mean much less than 1/32". Unless you're using a really dark color, you'll never see that small gap. For me, masking trim takes about the same time as not masking it.
I don't mask the ceiling/wall corner. I'm sure it would take longer if I did. How long does it normally take me? I don't really know. 30 minutes? Maybe more. There's a few variables here. Furniture to move? Adequate lighting? Pre-painted surface? One of the things that save me time is to paint the ceiling first and overlap onto the walls. Then, when I cut in around the ceiling, I've got fresh (but not wet) paint to help the brush glide.
When the walls are a light color (which they usually are), I like to get as close as possible to the ceiling without getting any paint on it. When using a darker color, I've found that it looks better if you actually overlap back onto the ceiling just a hair. That is, it looks better from a normal viewing angle. If you look straight up at it, it may not look so "perfect", but nobody looks at a ceiling that way, except for maybe the 1st day.
For the room you described, I would plan on 1/2 day to paint the ceiling and walls in their entirety.
Let me ask a question. If you find the painting pad faster and it does an acceptable job, why are you even bothering with a brush?
-Don
I guess the reason I keep trying the brush is because I seem to have the idea that a "good" painter doesn't fool with gimicks. He/she just gets out the Purdy and the cut bucket and goes at it.Perhaps that's a stupid line of thinking. Maybe a more realistic thought would be "I'll use whatever gets the job done fastest as long as it still looks OK".Another factor though is that the pad is only good for some stuff, like cutting in ceilings, around trim & baseboards where you have relatively long straight runs. Can't do away with the brush entirely and I keep wondering if my speed will eventually pick up enough to where I can do long runs with a brush as fast as I can with a roller pad.That 1/2 day you mentioned, that would be one coat?Daryl
That 1/2 day you mentioned, that would be one coat?
Yes, that would be one coat. Unlike some painters who seem to always do 2 coats, I only do 1 if that's what's needed. If the walls were new drywall with 1 coat of primer, I would do 2 topcoats. If I was just re-painting with a similar color and the existing paint wasn't too porous, I would just do 1 coat.
Sometimes I can't tell when I bid the job if I'll need a 2nd coat. I don't worry about it too much because the 2nd coat doesn't need as much paint and can be done in less than half the time. That's because I don't need to cut in as carefully for the 2nd coat. If you get a little "flashing" on that last 1/4" next to the trim, it will never be noticed.
I've only used the painting pads on exterior painting. I don't think I could get the kind of job that I want to be known for using them for interior painting.
I too have thought to myself that I should work the way long-time pros work. But that's not good thinking. While we should all try and learn from experienced people, the real goal is to find the most efficient way of working that meets or exceeds our own and the customer's expectations.
-Don
30 - 45 minutes per room
One to two minutes on a stained door .
Takes me an hour per room to paint a bedroom , 12x12 . Thats cutting plates and stained trim , drop cloths and tape on the base board. Im going to guess all the cut in at 15 minutes.
The painting is the easy part all your time should be spent on the prep. If it is prepped correctly the painting the painting should go very quicklyBuck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Glad to see ya back Ron. I missed ya!
You are absolutely right about the prep work. It takes a lot of time, but once it is done right, the painting goes fast.
I always apply two coats. I have yet to find a paint manufacturer that will back up their warranty unless you DO apply two coats (interior as well as exterior paints).
Once you do enough interior paint jobs, you learn tricks and short cuts. My time frame runs along the same as Tim Mooney's.
Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Those times are amazing! I remember from a previous post that you do two cuts thinned with Floetrol. Any other speed suggestions? I'm already using an 18" roller.
Do you use Floetrol ?
Timothy
Never have but willing to try any new idea if it makes me faster.
I dont use flotrol what I do is simple...previous painted room...patch, hole ect as well as sand caulk patch dings ect in the trim..let dry 24 hours sand patch on walls, trim tect and prime areas on wall where it was patched and sand and prime trim...reapply more patch where needed on trim let dry again.paint walls usuallly roll ...Then sand trim and prime with primer mixed with paint usually a 10-20% mix..... let dry lightly sand and paint.
It works for me alot of steps but it comes out niceBuck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I guess theres a few principles to covering ground by hand .
One is to make the material stretch the maximum per stroke . The same applies to drywall finishing. Floetrol for paint and a little soap for mud.
Whether using a drywall 6 inch knife or a brush , they must be flexable . I soak a brush in hot water before I start cutting paint to stained trim. I like to see a brush flow around objects being cut in bringing the paint to the feathered tips. The heel of the brush flexes away for full vision of the tips. Some prefer a longer shank brush to perform the same thing as the PPG cutting brushes uses extra length. Their bristles measure an extra inch.
Rythm and timming are the last subjects that are pysically controlled. Theres a time to................. do somthing and different times not to. Always work top down.
I like to listen to music to set tempo and stay with momentum. Thats necesary to stand in all day to turn out a great days work . Brick layers are my favorite example.
"A time to" has important meaning . I use stilts to do all the ceiling cut in if Ive got a tall enough pair . I have a set of 18s , a set of 24 to 36s and a set of 30 to 48s. I normally do the headers of windows and doors at that time. I walk in closets and do those too from stilts. I have breakdown dollies that carry paint and supplies from room to room when Im on stilts. When I come down , Im not on a ladder again. I do all the standing cutting and then drop to the floor on knee pads and stay till Im done after the rolling.
Timothy
Thanks Tim, that's helpful. I'm 6'4" so I can cut in higher without a ladder than many folks but to do brush cutting on the ceiling it's really easier if I'm up another 10 - 12 inches. On this job, I set up two ladders and ran a plank across the bottom steps but that was a REAL pain. I'll have to look into getting some kind short stilts. I can't get back to this job for a couple more weeks - that'll give me time to make/find something.I like your comment about making the material stretch the maximum per stroke. I'll definitely add the Floetrol.I guess what you're meaning about "from top down" is to do all the high cuts in all the rooms before taking off the stilts and doing all the mid level cuts in all the rooms?Momentum is an interesting thing. If you lose momentum by having to go get more paint, find another brush, etc. it's almost like you're starting all over when you get back. Pretty important to do some thinking before starting and make sure everything's where you need it and you're not going to have to stop for ANY reason.
You have a bunch of different methods here.
Im a custom painter, and my times are around Dons.
I dont tape, and always use a brush to cut everything. You get better with experience. If you want to be a great painter, worry about the control first, and the speed increases significantly with confidence and knowledge of pressure, loading, and other issues.
I dont cut everything at once except the ceiling. I paint a wall at a time. Cutting and rolling are the same task. Reason is the cut paint is still wet when you roll into it making any brush marks marry with the roller pattern, rather than creating another layer over dry cut line. That build up can be noticeable, enhancing the brush pattern.
As for brushes, I use an angled skiff for all my cutting... usually 2 1/2 -3 inch. Unless I am hand brushing tongue and groove or something, a bigger brush is just uncomfortable.
As for ceiling level, I see more people with little ladders, and contraptions. I think it takes more time. I use a Cosco 2 step stool... like a kitchen stool. Its a very small one. As I am working I can step down and hook my leg and drag the stool a few feet. After some practice its very quick, and I barely have to touch the thing. The other best tool, is a handy pail. I dont like working out of a pail, and found that this little bucket with a magnet to hold my brush cuts HUGE time. I think its one of my most profitable tools and cost less then $10. They sell them at the Depot now.
-zen
Thanks Zen. I'll be going to Depot today to see about that bucket. I usually fill a small coffee can with my cut paint but maybe this is better. I love an excuse to buy another tool!After giving up on that ladder/plank contraption, I found a small one-step stool to use but I didn't like dragging the thing around. Just a personal preference I guess. I've figured out a way to quickly make a sturdy, cheap pair of 12" stilts - I think I'll give those a try. Maybe I won't fall down!"You have a bunch of different methods here". I love hearing all the different methods, because I'm convinced there's something I can learn from each one, making me better and faster. And maybe at some point, there will be something I can share. When you work by yourself, it's always a good check to talk to others to get a feel for how you're doing and to learn something new and better.In terms of cutting everything at once, I worried about "keeping a wet edge" for a while, but I found that for me, doing all the cutting at once was better in terms of keeping momentum and if I quickly drybrushed/feathered the freshly cut edge (on the open wall side) when my brush ran out of paint, I didn't have any trouble at all when the roller ran back over it.Just for curiosity though, because of what you said, when I get back to that house I'm going to keep a wet edge around one window and do it my normal way around another and after the paint dries, I'll see if I can see a difference.
If I might add oe suggestion you might want to try. I have two types of trim brushed: One comes to a tapered tip at the end for casing for trim. But for cutting walls and ceilings I have another whose tip is flat, as though the tapered tip filiments were cut and flattened. That tip type makes it easier to do the cutting because you're putting a flat brush surface against the wal instead of a pointed ne that wants to go sideways.
Are both of them different than the regular cut brush like Purdy makes? Or is the second one the same and the first one different? Who makes them?
Don't know who makes them. I got them from a local paint company that exists only in Florida. Fond them accidentally when I pulled them out of their sleeves and noticed the difference. That was years ago.
Thanks Zen. I'll be going to Depot today to see about that bucket. I usually fill a small coffee can with my cut paint but maybe this is better. I love an excuse to buy another tool!
I'm another fan of this cut bucket. It's called the Handy Pail (they have a website http://www.handypaintpail.com/index.html). If you do get one, be sure to get some liners as well. My local HD doesn't carry the liners, but that's OK because I like to get my supplies at the paint store anyway. The liners make it a lot easier to change colors and clean up. Also dried paint in a cut bucket can be a problem, if that happens, just get a new liner.
If I'm doing a big job, I just cover my cut buckets and roller trays with plastic bags. A rubber band keeps them closed. I've found that paint will keep for at least a week this way. After a while, the edges start to dry out and I may or may not need to refresh everything depending of the quality of the job I'm shooting for.
When I roller, I usually work in vertical paths, but I always make at least one pass with an unloaded roller horizontally about 1/2" from the ceiling and similarly at the floor. This helps to minimize the texture difference between roller and brush. It also helps to smooth out the ridge that can form when the roller direction is reversed near the ceiling.
Whew, I didn't mean to write so much "how to", but everyone else has been so helpful, I felt compelled.
-Don
"I'm another fan of this cut bucket." Just got back from Depot a little while ago. I'm now the proud owner of a Handy Pail and a batch of liners. (Doesn't take much to get me excited as long as it has something to do with tools!) I like it a lot. Much better than the coffee can.I like your "unloaded roller" idea. I've been carrying a little 3" roller to do the same thing but using the main roller would keep from having to carry something else. However, I think the little roller might do a better job of blending the main roller texture into the brushed area since the nap is much finer than the main roller. Kind of halfway between main roller & brush.
I saw a post where somebody here used a dog. Painting that house probably took only about 10 minets. You could use two dogs and get done faster and miss less.
RELAX... The work can wait... The fish might be biting...
The people that own the house I'm working on have cows. I'll bet that would be even faster than a dog. Enough flies in the room and that tail would be going at warp speed.
let's give that a try... got a shovel...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
that was me...
like yur tag line...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
Interesting timing on this one. I just finished painting the hallway that goes from my rec room to the garage in my house. It also goes to a bedroom and bathroom / laundry room. All together about 30ft of base moulding and ceiling. 6 doors all framed with feather edge moulding. The floor and baseboards were all replaced about three weeks ago so all I was painting was the walls. I did some patching of nail holes and minor dents last night. Started this AM at about 9 and sanded all the patches. Then wiped everything down with a damp towel. Took me about an hour to cut in the ceiling, base boards and all the doors. Got the roller out and was finished by noon. I use a 2" straight brush that I have had for close to 25 years for all my cutting in. Do not use any tape, just a good steady hand. No paint on the moulding !
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Nice pics Bill. Kind of a tight, cut up sort of area to work in. Time sounds pretty good considering. That pad with rollers I was using is pretty enticing - quick, straight edges once you get the hang of it. But little skill involved. I hope I can develop the skill you and everyone else on this board seems to have where I can rip through all my cutting as fast or faster than using the pad.
Funny you mention, I got a second Handy pail the other day, my last one is about a year old. When I left the store I started telling everyone that I expanded my business and showed off my second paint pail.
Again, Don and I seem to use many similar techniques. Im a bagger as well. Walmart and HD bags are a bit short, but my local grocery bags cover a roller pan. I just put the roller pan in the bag with the roller sticking out twist the loose end of the bag around the roller stick when I need to get back to cutting. When its time to roll I take the bag and wrap around the opening and the upright brush and tuck the ends into the handle on the pail. New product always stays wet.
If I only have a shorter plastic bag, I pull it up the roller pan as much as possible then on the loading ramp, I tap my fingers up where the wet paint ends high on the ramp to create a seal... only need it for a bit so it works even over a break.
I do get liners, but I only use them with oil products. Latex I wash all my gear at the end of the job... until I can get to it I just leave in plastic bags.
Also, Purdy makes a great brush, but I think with some brand of paints the fibers feel to soft, or give to easy. Try a few other brands. Wooster makes good brushes, and SW has a few good lines. They probably have one of the flat cut tip ones as well. Style of brush is totally personal.
Canvas drops are great as well, I bring them to the laundromat and stuff a washer with them new, then occasionally through the season. Im not sure if others do that but they get soft and the clients can see that my gear is clean.
-zen
Edited 3/28/2005 8:55 pm ET by zendo
I saw an interesting idea the other day... line the roller pan with Glad Press-N-Seal, sticky side down of course. Similar to liners, which I love. I'm not a big fan of the clean up process so anything to eliminate or shorten it has my attention. When I'm using 18" rollers which is always, unless there's no room, I've just gotten a rag good and wet and laid it over the roller and pan. For longer stretches, I found I had to cover the rag with plastic to keep it from drying out. I tried the bagging method but didn't like the mess inside the bag. Could only use a bag once.You know, I wondered that about the Purdy's. My 3" seems kind of soft but my 2.5" is stiffer and cuts better. Maybe I'll look at a 3" Wooster.The guy at the ICI store where I have an account recommended Rubber Duckie brand drop cloths. Said that's about all they sell any more. I got a 9 x 12 and liked it real well. Soft, light weight cloth and the back is sealed with some kind of rubber stuff so you don't accidentally squish paint drips through onto the floor. Went back later and got a 12 x 15. Laid it out on the job and found it was a totally different fabric. Much stiffer and harder to work with. Was in a time crunch so I had to use it. I checked another 12 x 15 at ICI and it was similar fabric to the 9 x 12. Complained about it but they wouldn't do an exchange because mine had been opened and used. I guess I've been spoiled by dealing with big box stores. Maybe your comment about using a laundromat is the solution. That might soften it up.
funny that no one has mentioned that the quality and skills of painters vary far more than any other trade. Good painters, and by that I mean people who really know and care about the outcome, are very rare. Mediocre painters are a dime a dozen.
Also, painting what? Old house or new construction. Entirely different issues. Prepping old plaster and wood moldings with 20 old coats, or rock and colonial casing.
A good painter is worth his weight in gold. Problem is, every hack painter sells himself as Leonardo Da Vinci. And when carps paint, sheesh. It's like carp's using caulk to cover the dead bodies. Ugly.
Way too many variables to answer the question. And having gone through more painters than anyone else in the history of mankind (check Guiness Book of World Records), I can state without equivocation that I'm going to marry my daughter off to the a great painter, if I can find one, just to make sure he's around.
Hey Zendo. Know any great painters?
SHG
I know one. Come from a long line of painters..unfortunately he is gepgraphically undesireable..He's here in Calif. The man is the michelangelo of painters....Buck Construction View Image
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
As I have heard the carpenters say, new construction is for beginners, old houses are for the pros.
Yes the thread has deteriorated a bit, I just figured I would throw in a few ideas that streamline my process.
Its always interesting to hear from the other side. My experience with builders needing painters is that they want the best, but wont pay for it. Many on here have said that money isnt generally an issue, but in my real world experience the builders still want a cheap bid.
Thats why I personally pin myself as custom, because for me the work comes first. I think also by using that word, people know that its not going to be slop and go. I want to be able to take the time to do great work. There isnt much more satisfying than to hear a client that knows the work is great but cant pin down what you did different. I think its a whole bunch of little things that add up to the larger whole. In addition I think that if any tradesman, right from the start, shows that they respect an owners space and belongings, the clients also are thrilled.
Painting is a finicky thing, I think that it needs a certain personality. When they dont have it its a recipe for disaster.
Its always a balance, Im lead certified, so Im liable for anything pre 1979... there are probably a few owners that dont want to know that because the price close to doubles when lead safe has to be employed. Its too much of a risk for me, so I bid accordingly and have to accept if the homeowner chooses the guy down the street.
As for great painters... how old is she and what does she bring to the bargain table. (and no, beer doesnt count)
-zen
I have a background in manufacturing and one of the things that was pounded into us was that it's critical to know the expectation of the final outcome and adjust your time and process to meet that expectation.The thought was that it's wasteful and unnecessary to produce a product that meets a different specification.Some paint jobs require Michaelangelo, some don't.I guess it boils down to what a person's goal is. If the goal is to make clients happy, since there are a wide range of personalities, financial abilities and expectations, you match your paint job to their expectation.But if your goal is to work only in an environment where perfection is the expectation, then you find clients who have that as their focus and will pay for it.The builders Zendo mentioned obviously have a warped expectation. I want a 2005 Ford F250 but can only pay for my 1998 F150. Isn't that human nature....we always want more than we can pay for.
I think Zendo's point was that builders, as opposed to homeowners, want a decent but inexpensive job that puts paint on walls. It's not that they want a bad paint job, but that their purpose is to sell a house, and that they aren't interested in spending a lot of money as there is no return for them. This is business, not love.
I think your statement is more true of homeowners. 90% wouldn't know a decent paint job from utter crap, no matter how they describe the work they want. Similarly, it doesn't take a michelangelo to paint new construction. Even incompetents can look pretty good on an easy job.
And, a bit of editorial comment here, a good painter paints (preps) well because he can't paint any other way. It doesn't have to do with how much he's charging, but that he has personal pride in what he does.
Unfortunately, painting is an easy trade to get into, and my experience is that the vast majority of painters suck. They can talk a good paint job, but can't produce. And they do just fine, because most jobs don't require a good paint job and most HOs wouldn't know good painting if it smacked them in the face. And those people who care, and can tell the difference, tend to hate painting because it is so difficult to find a good painter. It may also have to do with sniffing fumes, but that's another issue.
SHG
You are getting close to my views.
Im not sure what causes what, but isnt it weird how the monotonous trades attract paint sniffers? Maybe Im way off base but isnt it the masons, drywall finishers, painters that usually have cans falling out if there car, smoke during breaks, OUI/DWI charges, jail stints? ... you probably could include a bunch of framers too.
Im not sure if the job attracts the personality, or if the job drives them to the drugs. Its unfortunate, Ive seen some serious talent go bad.
Thats a pet peeve of mine I guess. When Im working I dont want that interference anyway, I think it slows a person down... even the six pack the night before. The bunch that doesnt work like that get a bad rep from the ones that do. My business image is as important to me as the work itself.
As for builders, the only difference is that I wish they believed a bit more in the fact that the painter and the finish carpenter sell their job. This isnt to say that the work before isnt important, but in the end its real. Then the trouble comes to cost again... the builder doesnt have a good drywaller or other and the finish carp and painter are furious because they bid on a job that the details lined up.
Id love to find a builder that seemed reasonable and was willing to listen to the problems. Im always happy to fix error, or tweak things to work, but I dont want to have to go back and do it for free. I also like new construction, I like being able to go in and work long hours, not have to worry about an occasional drip on the subfloor, and punch the music. That opportunity allows me to make more money in the total year by maximizing the hours I work in a week. My understanding would be that builders would like that because their job would get done sooner, but it doesnt usually work like that.
As for client that act like that, I always ask at the first meeting. I thought I was doing a client a favor by working 7 days a week to get his job done. After 2 weeks he lit into me and said that no contractor should interrupt a persons Sunday, that was his day. He also said that every good contractor shows up at the same time everyday, like at 7. I have another client that cheers anytime Im willing to be there, and both eyes would be looking out the same socket if I showed up at 7.
As for the no other way, I have gotten in the middle of some jobs and been sick about some corners that a builder or HO demanded that I cut.
Another note, I dont think paint companies of more than 2-3, pay their people. I know many charge 3 times the cost of the employee, so the wage is determined by what the company can get away with for max price. I wouldnt want to work hard if I was treated like an expendable mindless.
-zen
any more talk like that and I'm going to increase my daughter's dowry.
You are absolutely right that the painter (even more than the finish carp) makes the job. He's the last hand that makes things like right. Or wrong.
I've paid a ton of money for bad painting. And very reasonable money for great painting. I even paid a guy twice his number because he way undercharged me, and lived up to everything he told me he would do. Then again, I've sued a painter who charged me an arm and a leg, then disappeared the day that he decided he wanted to move on to the next job, leaving me holding the bag with less than mediocre job when I needed, and was paying for, top work.
So where are you taking my daughter on the first date?
Shg,
What State do I have to pick her up in?
and is she at least street legal?
-zen
Edited 3/30/2005 10:15 am ET by zendo
and is she at least street legal?
she will be by the time you're done with all my painting. and you can call me Scott, considering we're going to be related.
Roar!!!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Ok,
Now I have done my research.
I couldnt afford your daughter... even in 5 years.
Ill have to shut down and come work for you... which also has recently crossed my mind.
I went to grad school at UA SUNY.
Oh and Andy knows me a bit.
-zen
I couldnt afford your daughter... even in 5 years.
I can't afford her either. But that doesn't mean you can't come work for me. And 5 years may be a bit ambitious. Think 7, it's a bit more biblical.
Scott
Um......now that the marriage has been postponed, could we possibly un-hijack the thread?
this thread wasn't hijacked. you got the best answer you could get given the limited information you provided a long time ago. if you want zen to come do your painting for you, you'll need to have your own daughter for him.
Sorry Zen, fresh out of daughters. Mine got married off 8 years or so ago and I refuse to have any more. Guess I'll just have to learn how to paint good myself.I appreciate everyone's input. It answered my original question and provided more information than I had initially asked for. Since I love tools and better ways of doing things, I really liked the comments that talked about that.Although there sure are all kinds of modifiers to a paint job; new construction, Victorian house with 20 layers of cracked, lead based paint, most of the posters caught the drift of what I was after without me having to be more detail specific.