FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Painting or Staining of Historic Wood

dirtyturk | Posted in Construction Techniques on September 13, 2007 11:56am

To All.  Greetings from a new member to this forum.  I’m not new to our favorite magazine or the construction industry. I am an Architect but a realist too. You folks no doubt have better answers to my questions than any book.

I own a circa 1837 residence in Northern Ohio. Bought the place 20 years ago and, without apologizing, have finally gotten around to doing what I want to do on the exterior. The place was abandoned for 5 years before me so there was a lot of work.

Query.  I painted and maintained the exterior for all that time. The painting was of the top layer of clapboard siding (redwood, installed 1947). Beneath it was the 1920’s version of siding (asphalt panels resembling brick over wood fiber panels).  Well….removing those layers was and is dirty, dusty and generally boring but well worth it.  Still in place and in remarkable condition is the original 1837 cedar or hemlock siding on black walnut stud framing. And the original corner and trim boards.  Can you say square head nails? 

Paint (after priming) or stain?  Stop me if you’ve heard this before but after the repairs and prep for the final finish which should take the bit of time I keep running into the question of paint or stain.  The Department of the Interior, National Park Service and a few other sources lean toward two coats of latex acrylic primer and a final latex acrylic top coat.  (Hydraulic application). The exposed wood will not need to be scraped as there is no paint on the wood.  There was but it weathered off some time in the past.

What with the incredible advances in final finishes I finally came here to get some real life experiences.  Gentlemen?  Ladies?   What say you? 

And thank you in advance. 

t

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. FastEddie | Sep 13, 2007 11:57pm | #1

    What is hydraulic application?

    "Put your creed in your deed."   Emerson

    "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

    1. cameraman | Sep 14, 2007 12:08am | #2

      I would assume pumped with a airless sprayer?????

      1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 12:18am | #3

        Took the words out of my mouth. Thanks.

        Been writing too many spec sheets lately. Airless sprayer would have been more appropriate.

        t

  2. User avater
    hammer1 | Sep 14, 2007 12:23am | #4

    Oil based primer followed with solid color acrylic stain. Brush them both, two coats of the solid stain. Light colors are the best choice. Longevity may have more to do with the insulation, or lack there of, and interior vapor barrier. Large overhanging trees, close shrubs and other closed in conditions will also have a negative effect.

    Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 05:43am | #5

      Careful installation of insulation is one of my top priorities. The second is control of moisture movement.  I've got a lath/plaster interior wall system and all the interior trim is difficult to near impossible to remove and reinstall so I'm doing the insulation from the exterior.

      As far as your observations regarding the "landscaping" I have already cut out all the shrubs around the perimeter and given that some of my trees are registered as Grand or significant (and have the certificates of their status) in the State of Ohio I've trimmed them back as far as possible. Seems we are thinking on the same wavelength.

      I think you have hit on the same solution as I've been considering. 

      Thanks for the comments.

      t

  3. User avater
    BillHartmann | Sep 14, 2007 06:21am | #6

    "The exposed wood will not need to be scraped as there is no paint on the wood. There was but it weathered off some time in the past."

    You need to sand the wood just before priming. The surface is damaged by the weathering. It is not a good surface for paint to bond to.

    .
    .
    A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 04:32pm | #11

      No question that part of my final prep will be sanding. Since the wood is 3/8" thk I can afford some surface loss. I did do an area with a light hand sanding to see just how much surface loss I would have and this wood is in great condition for its age.

      My biggest concern is the initial coating and the absorbtion rate of the wood but this wood seems very tight for its age.  A couple of experiments should answer the questions.

      I'm going to run out to my Amish lumber yard and have Mr. Yoder tell me just what this wood is.

  4. User avater
    Dinosaur | Sep 14, 2007 07:51am | #7

    If there is no paint to scrape off, why would you want to put some on?

    Sikkens Cetol 1 + 23 is the product you want. The basecoat (Cetol 1) is a penetrating oil-based stain which contains most of the colour; the topcoat (Cetol 23) is a soft-skin complementary varnish with about 10% of the colour, mostly for UV protection. It is very tough, very beautiful, and very expensive...but you won't need to touch the place for at least 10 years, and then you only re-do the topcoat. In the long run, it comes out less expensive than ordinary primer and paint, and nothing can make a house look as good.

     

    Dinosaur

    How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
    low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
    foolish men call Justice....

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 04:38pm | #12

      Your tag for this forum is very interesting in that I have had some Architect friends call me that because I still hand draw all my work.  I've gotten work because I don't use a CAD program. I hope your choice was because of your well earned efforts in your skill.

      Thanks for the product suggestion. One of my biggest concerns is a good penetrating coating and it sounds like you've given me a name to work with and a product worthy of this fine old home.

       

      1. User avater
        Dinosaur | Sep 14, 2007 07:35pm | #18

        Your tag for this forum is very interesting in that I have had some Architect friends call me that because I still hand draw all my work. 

        I learned to draw with K&E pencils on vellum, and to use duckbills to ink them for blueprinting, all at my daddy's knee. I still have his portable drawing board, the one he carried back and forth to Cooper Union on the subway. He was a mechanical engineer and when teaching me how to see something from any of the six possible view points, he explained to me the meaning of the expression 'a spherical son of a bitch'.

        I do use ACAD now, though; not because I can't draw anymore but because it's quicker to send the drawings to the client for approval by e-mail than by post. Most of my clients live out of town and I work on their country homes or cottages.

        Dinosaur

        How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

        1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 09:04pm | #20

          Sir, I dropped a few thousand on an AutoCad 2007 program and some add-ons so the last of the architectural dinosaurs will soon be history.  I do a lot of commercial (read: fast money) so there is a need for duplicate backgrounds for utilities and alternate layouts. I'll probably have to hire a couple of people until I run up to speed.  

          Your father no doubt understood the discipline of his craft and would have embraced the use of CAD programs as being more efficient for everyone. And yes, having the capacity to get info to the clients in far flung locations is a great plus. Had a client in Tiawan last year. With my associate firm, they did the construction documents in CAD, we were working 24/7. Fascinating to consider the amount of time saved.

          ciao,   t

          1. BillBrennen | Sep 14, 2007 09:20pm | #21

            Hi Dirtyturk,Welcome to Breaktime. I'm not sure if you have decided to go with paint or with stain. The Cetol product that Dinosaur mentioned is the Rolls Royce of transparent coatings for siding, IMO. It could play a role even if you go with paint. The Cetol base coat would be an ideal pre-primer, as it soaks into the wood and helps consolidate the top layer so that the primer's pigment does not all disappear into the pores.That said, the BLO mixed with primer does much the same thing, and is a lot cheaper. And I add my voice to the chorus about brushing the paint being superior.Bill

          2. dirtyturk | Sep 15, 2007 03:57pm | #25

            Bill, seems that my choices for an initial coat, after sanding, are between the Cetol product line and BLO.  I may let my checkbook dictate that but if the difference in reasonably close...I respect this home and its craftsmanship too much to cut corners.

            I'm back to my free weights to prep my arms for the effort to follow.

            Thanks, again.

            ciao, t

          3. User avater
            Dinosaur | Sep 15, 2007 03:20pm | #23

            You are right about my father; had he lived into the ACAD age, he would have used it and been good at it...although I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts he would have continued to do his thinking with a pencil and quadrille pad.

            When I was learning to drive, he let me drive him to his office on Saturdays when he had to put in some extra time on a big project. It was there I saw my first 'drafting machine'--instead of using a tee-square and triangle (or even a parallel rule and triangle--what I have on the drawing table sitting next to me as I type this), the draftsmens' and engineers' tables were all equipped with drafting machines.

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

  5. Hazlett | Sep 14, 2007 01:39pm | #8

     dirtyturk,

    where abouts in northern ohio??????? I am in akron and an old house fanatic myself, LOL.

    Circa 1837?-------------one of my first projects when I was starting out about 20 years ago was painting an old farm house out in Medina county. Greek Revival---roughly 1830's-1840's.--originally the house had been 2 seperate houses located about 300 yards apart. In the late 1800-s--------------one of the houses was pulled 300 yards UPHILL and joined with the second house----something like 40 teams of horses apparently used. the family of the current owners bought the  place in the early 1900's and there were oldtimersin the neighborhood who remembered the" big move"

     one of the houses had lap siding over an inch thick installed with cut nails---the other house had wire nails.---we used pratt & lambert oil based primer and then 2 coats pratt& lambert top coats-----------the wood REALLY sucked up the paint and the coverage was not quite what we had hoped. Later we were told that the entire house should have first been" painted" with a coat of boiled linseed oil----after THAT cured, THEN primer and 2 coats of top coat. old timers theory was that the wood would soak up the BLO instead of the primer and top coats.

    I would experiment in a small area with that method. I am guessing that with a house in that area and of that vintage that perhaps the color you want is a very white, white and I am not certain a solid stain is gonna get you where you want to go.--- I am equally uncertain that a airlessed sprayed latex  will get you there either.

     good luck--sounds like a fabulous project.

    Stephen

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 05:02pm | #13

      S, Sounds like you got caught up in the historic house trap. I tell other architects to drop the wine and cheese and get dirty, you'll learn more about your trade. Hence my tag, dirtyturk.

      Anyhow, the house is registered with the State of Ohio as a Federalist style but I contested it as I think its Greek Revival...to no avail.  Now that I've exposed most of the trim elements buried over the years I'm going to request a re-evaluation of the style.  It too is a 'composite' house. The main body is original but the kitchen/laundry room on the back is constructed from another house that the owner had built for his mother and about a half mile away. Short version.....took that one apart and reassembled it as an addition (completely verifiable by the structure, materials and tax records).  Then in 1947 another addition was constructed.  Man, you can see the drop in quality form each area! 

      Oh, I'm in Aurora. About 1 1/2 miles from Geauga Lake (which the original owner of this place owned, Mr. Bohan Blair).

      I've also heard about the boiled linseed oil treatment and have considered it. However, I believe from everything you've and others have suggested there are more modern alternatives and that's why I posed the questions I have.  It may be that BLO is very effective for protecting the wood but...will it extend the life of the paint.  This is not to say I find fault in the suggestion but right now I'm still considering this as a broad brush info gathering period.

      1. BryanSayer | Sep 14, 2007 06:32pm | #16

        If you go the boiled linseed oil route (never raw) I mix it about 50/50 with turpentine. Otherwise, it takes forever to dry. But I like the two coats of primer option also.

  6. Piffin | Sep 14, 2007 01:57pm | #9

    First thing is to sand the old wood. As is now, you have a lot of old dead broken open wood cells making up the surface that will just flake off taking the new paint with it. Sanding brings you to newer wood to bond to. Sand as much as you can prime the same day.

    Use oil based primer and brush it on. Brushing is better than spraying because you can work the paint into the wood and get a heavier caot without it dripping and sagging.
    Oil base is better for old wood because as it dries slower, it can penetrate the cracks and crevices and micropores more to bond well. Also, your Cedar or Hemlock can have extractives that may bleed through a latex. A good oil primer/sealer will prevent that.

    After this prep, use whatever paint you want, latex probably better.

    go Satin or flat, not gloss. That would show every imperfection as magnified.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 05:14pm | #14

      Thanks for the comeback, definitely sanding. I had a real concern with the wood being so old but a couple of hand sanded areas showed me I had little to worry about.  And I've been pretty much convinced by all that spraying on any coating is not the best option. I guess I've gotten lazy with age.

      And far as finish texture...flat, without question. Like I said in my original post I've been wanting to do this for 20years so I've given it a lot of thought and research...and did paint one, unseen from the street, area in semi-gloss. I've hated that area ever since. The windows, doors and entablatures, frieze board and crown molding at the eaves in semi-gloss but definitely flat on the main body.

      ciao, t

      1. MikeK | Sep 14, 2007 07:06pm | #17

        I scrapped ALL the paint off my 1890s house, down to bare wood. What I did is thin down oil based primer by 50%. The thinned down primer soaks deeper into the fresh wood. 2nd coat of primer was full strength.

        One of the other posters mentioned Pratt & Lambert paint.  I used it on my house and was happy with it. It has a high solids content and covers well. In the consumer reports testing the Pratt and Lambert held its color well compared to other paints.

        Mike K

        Aurora, IL

        1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 08:53pm | #19

          I know I've got to protect this old wood so the first coat is going to be some primer that is cut.  I want the wood to make it another 170years so I don't have to replace it at that time.

          No matter which paint manufacturer I end up with, and Pratt and Lambert is on the list, that first coat is the critical one and I'm getting a lot of great feedback and experiences to draw from.

          Oh, I'm sitting in Aurora, Ohio and been through Aurora, Illinois and Aurora, Colorado. Hmmm, do I detect a pattern?

          Thanks for the thoughts.

          ciao,   t

          1. Hazlett | Sep 15, 2007 01:30am | #22

            Aurora huh?----- heck we are practically neighbors!

             one thing you are gonna like about the flat paint is--------if you do it well------the freshly painted house looks like it was painted very well----maybe 4-5 years ago------and it looks that way for a long,long, time.---------paint it well with semigloss or gloss------and it looks like it was painted well---yesterday-----and then the looks head down hill----the flat finish definitely gives it more of a timeless look-----especially on the main body of the house-----at least to my eye.

            please forgive my professional interest----but what's on the roof of this  1830's-1840's house????????

             Best wishes,

            stephen

          2. dirtyturk | Sep 15, 2007 04:16pm | #26

            Stephen, I wouldn't even consider any option other than flat. First and foremost, it would not be historically correct to apply a semi-gloss for the entire main field of the house.  And then for all the reasons you listed.

            Semi-gloss on the windows, doors and their trim and entablature, and the crown molding(8"thk solid) under the eaves is a concession. And it gives me a little contrast in the right light.

            As to the roof.  The original roof system was wood shingles applied directly to the planking. (All of the "planks" were 1 3/4" thk pine and one was 32"wide and they all look to be pit sawn. Wow, the effort to create these homes leaves me overwhelmed). I verified the wood shingles when I removed all the asphalt roofing in my first year here. I had three layers of asphalt up there....can you say swayback ridge? The system in place is a 320# 'Certaineed Shangle', Colonial Slate with appropriate underlayment and repairs.  Kind of hoped for enough structural strength for a slate roof but it isn't there.  {Excuse me miss, want to see my, ahem, queen beams?)

            ciao,  ted

             

  7. WNYguy | Sep 14, 2007 03:01pm | #10

    You've gotten a lot of good advice so far.

    The original paint on your house was most likely linseed oil, turpentine and pigment.  The result would have been a very glossy finish that would dull somewhat over time.  To replicate that look, you'd want to avoid using stains and flat-finish paints.  If you're not concerned with historic accuracy, then there are probably advantages to stains.

    Congratulations on finally getting to the siding after 20 years!  Ten years after buying my 1838 house, I realized it would be a long while, still, before I would have the time to scrape and paint myself, so I hired a contractor.  His prep work wasn't as complete as I would have done, but after a few years now, it's still looking very nice.

    As a primer, the contractor used Sherwin Williams SWP alkyd oil paint thinned with linseed oil.  He used a sprayer to apply the thinned paint, then hand-brushed it (essentially sprayer in one hand, brush in the other).  The top coat was "full strength" alkyd oil, applied in the same way.

    The result was an historically appropriate high-gloss finish.  The downside was that the glossiness, as Piffin pointed out, magnified the imperfections of the prep job.  Still, I'm very happy with it.

    Oil paint, however, is no longer an option here in New York State.  But maybe next time I'll mix my own with linseed oil, turpentine and pigment.

    Allen

    PS  Any chance you might post some photos of your house?  Interior, exterior, projects you've completed during your 20-year "stewardship"?

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 14, 2007 05:46pm | #15

      WNY? Got Indians? I've got a baseball team by that name!  :)

      Scraping I did on the first go round...which was sorely needed. This time its sanding. How do I do this to myself?

      Sherwin-Williams is headquartered in Cleveburg and like to use local. Their oil-based primer with a 20% linseed oil cut was recommended by their rep and various and sundry other sources. You guys got me leaning. And yes hand brushed.  I've spec'ed out sprayon with a light hand brush application on a couple of occasions but that's only been on new surfaces usually interior. Hmmm, might be less wear and tear on this old body of mine.

      I've got to go flat as there are way too many imperfections but that comes with being 170yrs old...the house not me....well...maybe both.

      As to pix. I'm documenting everything I've done (before/during/after) so I'll post them as time permits. I've done a number of historic renovations for clients so it comes with the territory. A current project is moving and renovating of an 1820's home. I got permission to move it 135ft back from the road from the local Landmark Commission now I have to establish what it will look like after we remove all the "additions".  Should be fun. Found a wooden wagon wheel in the attic already and we haven't even opened up the walls yet. Friend of mine found a massive cache of Confederate stuff hidden in a false floor in an old barn up in Ashtabula County, Ohio. About 4mile from Lake Erie. Love these treasure hunts!

      Thanks again.

      ciao. t

      1. WNYguy | Sep 15, 2007 03:41pm | #24

        turk, looks like you'll be a great addition to this forum.  I'm really looking forward to seeing photos of your house and professional projects; I hope you have to time to post and share!

        I've saved and printed photos of every Ohio example of Federal and Greek Revival houses that are available on the HABS website, and I must say there are some great examples in your fine state.  I agree that your house is probably more "Greek" than Federal, based on the construction date.

        My moniker "WNY" refers to Western New York state.  Pratt & Lambert paint, by the way, used to be a "local" company here, based in Buffalo.  But a few years back it was bought out by one of the other major paint manufacturers, and the local factory and offices were closed.  It's still marketed as Pratt & Lambert, but it's not really.  I forget which company took it over.

        Allen

        1. dirtyturk | Sep 15, 2007 04:39pm | #27

          WNYguy, I figured out your location in a convoluted way.  There is a WNYregion in the SCCA and I used to compete against them at the track. Well, I was there...I don't know about compete.

          And...I may have stepped too hard on your toes with my comment about "Got Indians?".  Apology extended. Going up to the Finger Lakes area/Watkins Glen I passed through a few of the reservations on old State Rte. 17.

          How many photos do you want?  This community has 159 registered homes and at  a quess I would say that 25 or so are in the Federalist/Greek Revival style. I sat on the Landmark Commission here. Here being, Aurora. Founded in 1799. I promise to send along a nice collection.

          As to the HABS website. Good general resource. I schmuzed a developer into salvaging a few things out of a home he was tearing down for a hotel.  One, the house was in the HABS and two, I took everything! Doors, every bit of trim, baseboard, handrails, floor boards and just about anything that may have historical relevance. Man, can you learn a lot with these old homes! 

          Enough, I though P&L was bought out by ICI. I have their cut sheet here somewhere. No matter, I'm going to check out that Consumer Reports article.

          Thanks again.

          ciao, ted

          1. WNYguy | Sep 16, 2007 04:07pm | #32

            Ted, as time allows, yes please share any Federal or Greek Revival examples.  Thanks!

            I reshingled my house (1830s Greek) a few years ago with white cedar.  It has weathered to a pleasant gray.  Like your house, the original shingles were applied directly to the old planks.  The wood shingles I removed during tearoff, however, were western red cedar from maybe the 1930s.

            The "Indian" comment went right over my head.  Sorry about that!  By the way, for me it was 10,000 meters, Div III.  Scored some points in dual meets, but that's about it.  Did better on the roads after college.

            Allen

          2. Hazlett | Sep 16, 2007 04:55pm | #35

             allen,

             where did you run DIII ?

             my son is currently running DIII right now and having an absolute BLAST-----couldn't be happier

            compared to some of his somewhat faster highschool team mates---who started out running DI---and hated it but kept it up to maintain scholarships---or who quit running entirely.

            Saw one of his friends/former teammates last night---she is NOT running DI in college----but she is running marathons----in fact running in the boston marathon in the spring.----sending her a card and a check to help her on her way-----------

            stephen

          3. WNYguy | Sep 16, 2007 07:04pm | #36

            Stephen, I ran for Rochester Institute of Technology back in 1981.  That was senior year ... with studio classes and work schedule, I just didn't have time before that, though I loved track and cross-country in high school.

            We competed against Ithaca College, St. Lawrence University, Geneseo State, Buffalo State, St. Bonaventure, etc.

            It was great fun; glad to hear your son is enjoying it.  One of my sons ran in high school, but isn't pursuing it now in college.  He had a string of injuries after freshman year, so it was always frustrating for him.

            Allen

          4. Hazlett | Sep 17, 2007 02:29pm | #39

             RIT, huh?-----------

            rochester is one of my favorite towns--------nice museum,nice little arts district, some staggeringly beautiful houses-----and of course  a first rate,nationaly known cross country meet---the Mcquaid  Invitational.

             Of course--my view of rochester is influenced by the fact that I have only been there a day or 2 at a time---typically  during spectacular fall weather for the McQuaid race( but at least I have been there many times!)

             one of our former runners is a RIT student currently---although I don't think she is running. Personally----I am trying to complete a project next week  by thursday so that I can drive up to the Mcquaid race fri-sat.

            BTW--8 years ago I got off a plane in Reno( wearing a Mcquaid hat)-----took about 10 steps when someone came up to me and started chattering about what a great event that race is----it's THAT well known.

            Stephen

          5. WNYguy | Sep 17, 2007 03:16pm | #40

            Stephen, bring your spikes.

            http://www.active.com/event_detail.cfm?event_id=1400280

            I ran it after my watching my son's race a few years ago.  What a hoot.  I still have my McQuaid ribbons from high school.  It remains a great event ... well organized and wonderful for spectators.

            And, um ... I still prefer a glossy look for historic 19th century houses.  Especially if "restoration" is the goal.   But I understand the other choices.  (trying to minimize the "hijack" here!)

            Allen

          6. dirtyturk | Sep 17, 2007 04:23pm | #41

            WNYguy, didn't have enough left of the roofing shingles to make any determination as to wood type. Just a couple of shards. I briefly considered taking it back to the wood shingle but the house in tucked into a small forest of mature trees and I felt that the maintainance would have not been worth it. 

            Got to clarify the siding that I'm taking off (first layer being removed). I found redwood on the Kithchen addition. That's for sure. But after further review I've got to admit that (1) redwood was probably not available as readily in the 1940's as it became for a while and (2) I finally really took a hard look at the shards of the siding and the unpainted face of the siding and I believe that the wood is a red cedar. Maybe...nah...I'm going to photograph a couple of the cleaner pieces and you can tell me.  Well, someone is going to tell me.

            A runner, huh. The only running I did was in High School. A miler. Got down to a 5:20, I think. (That was 40 years ago so memory's faded). I still run but to maintain not compete.  The competition I alluded to was sports cars. Sorry if I wasn't clear. You did generate an interesting string though. :)

            ciao, ted

          7. WNYguy | Sep 17, 2007 10:23pm | #46

            Auto racing!  Ahhh!  The only "wheeled" racing I've done is on a bicycle :)

            Here's a photo showing brick nogging in a c.1840s Greek Revival in Wayne County, New York.  It's dry-laid in the cavity, with lath and plaster on the interior, I believe.

            View Image

            The bricks are visible where the porch trim board used to be.   I think the bricks were used as rudimentary insulation ... and maybe a firestop, perhaps?

            Allen

          8. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Sep 18, 2007 06:23am | #48

            I've never seen it dry laid here (NJ) - maybe the 'mortar' (usually sand and lime - pre-Portland cement - only invented c. 1830) has just washed/eroded away.

            Usually there is a wood ground every couple of vertical feet too.

             

            Jeff

          9. WNYguy | Sep 18, 2007 03:51pm | #50

            Jeff, the example I showed was definitely originally dry-laid.  The bricks were packed tightly ... no room for mortar.  I haven't dissected enough houses around here to say whether that was common or not, although brick nogging generally was not the norm around here.

            I worked on a c.1870 house last year that had mortared brick nogging that extended only about a foot above the sill; the stud cavities were empty above that (balloon framing).

            As you mention, Portland cement was invented in England in the 1820s, but it didn't see widespread use in homebuilding in America until quite late in the 19th century.  There were also so-called "natural cements" that were used primarily for industrial use (like canal locks) at least as early as the 1820s here in New York State.

            I've done extensive work using lime mortar, and I must say it has some distinct advantages over Portland mixes.  And is the ONLY mortar appropriate for visible, above-grade applications in pre-Civil War houses.

            Interesting about the wood ground.  Haven't seen that here, either.

            But we digress.  My apologies to the OP!

            Allen

             

          10. WNYguy | Sep 16, 2007 04:09pm | #34

            Ted, in checking Consumer Reports, keep in mind that their ratings factor in price, so sometimes high-quality, high-end products suffer in their overall rating.

            Or so I hear.

            Allen

          11. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Sep 17, 2007 08:51am | #38

            dirty - Restoration architect here with 30 years experience -

            - DO NOT use BLO + turps - you will have a severe mildew problem if you do

            - I second the recommendation to sand to bright wood

            - Don't spray anything - you won't get the mils you need

            - since the wood isn't backprimed, consider 2 coats alkyd primer - best bet is Cabot Problem solver primer with 10% Penetrol and mildewcide added

            - definitely PAINT not stain - 100% acrylic of your choice (I like S-W Duration ... a little harder to apply but with great results)

            - are your walls brick-nogged?  typical for your time frame

             

            Jeff

            Edited 9/17/2007 1:53 am ET by Jeff_Clarke

          12. dirtyturk | Sep 17, 2007 05:16pm | #43

            Jeff, you hit on the biggest concern that I've had and that is potential mildew development and the effect of sealing vs. protecting. Point taken. I've been chasing down and working to control moisture and create proper venting and selectively insulate since I got here and with the removal of the layers of siding I've found even more passages to work on. Some created by the former squatters (4-legged and furry type)

            Definitely sanding.  And brush application. And it seems that the findings of my original research are being borne out with your observation of 2 coats of alkyd primer.

            Applying the outline that another poster sent through along with yours and all the others seems we have a plan. Thanks.

            Final question. There is much to learn and understand and 'brick-nogged' got me.  ???  I'm at a loss as to the definition.

            Thanks again.

            ciao, ted  (PS only a fellow Architect would understand your posting at 1:51AM, ;)  )

          13. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Sep 17, 2007 05:23pm | #45

            It was common, depending upon the region and era, to fill stud cavities with soft brick and plastering wall surfaces directly thereon, making the filling of such cavities with insulation impossible without removal of the brick (drastic).

            Jeff

          14. dirtyturk | Sep 18, 2007 04:17pm | #51

            Jeff, been involved in a number of teardowns, rehabs and never seen brick-nogging.       Having seen WNYguy's photo I do recognize the technique. That's not to say that in a larger (larger being relative) metropolitan area with greater access to a  brick factory that it wasn't around.  

            The house the owner is looking to move that I mentioned earlier does have a pond on the property that has a island.  This was the local brick factory here in Aurora.  There are records of the sale of bricks made there for an all brick home built up the road from it in 1806 or so.  Obviously rare for the territory. I would imagine the these Conneticut folk would find alternatives to the amount of effort needed to make and lay in the brick. 

            A thought though. They sat in essentially virgin forest and I am aware of a the beginnings of a lumber industry, water powered, in and around this area so carrying out this train of thought it would seem easier to process the trees rather than make the brick. I am going to make inquiries with a couple of other owners in area.  I know of an 1822 home up the street that was recently striped down to the framing and completely resided and I saw no evidence of any nogging. Hmmm. Now I have to check this out.

            Thanks, all, for the info and the "Painting in America" reference book.

            Still working.

            ciao, ted

          15. Piffin | Sep 19, 2007 01:16pm | #54

            The most brick noggin ( new term for me) I have seen was in the sill area up to maybe 18" in the stud cavity. I t was always set in lime mortar and I always assumed it was for "insulation" though thermal massing and rat control come to mind also 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          16. WNYguy | Sep 19, 2007 03:59pm | #55

            Below is an example of brick infill as you described: mortared brick (lime mortar) extending about 16 inches up from the sill.  (c.1870 house in Orleans County, N.Y.)

            Your thermal massing and rodent control theories have also occured to me.  This practice was not THAT long ago ... seems there must be some existing documentation as to its intended purpose.

            Masonry "infill" in timber-framed houses goes back to Roman times, and remained common in Europe for centuries (as in "Tudor" style).  I wonder if the practice descended from that tradition?

            In my 1934 Webster's dictionary, the term "nogging" is defined as "rough brick masonry used to fill in the open spaces of a wooden frame."  A "nog," interestingly, is a brick-sized wooden block that is incorporated in a masonry wall "to serve as a hold for nails."

            View Image

            Allen

             

          17. BryanSayer | Sep 19, 2007 05:01pm | #56

            So far, the ones I have heard of completely filled (which is all of, like, 2 or 3) have been in pretty cold areas which makes me think of insulation of some form. Or mass to hold heat in general. Like have fires during the day and the mass holds some heat into/through the night.I am curious about the 12" to 18" fills though. Doesn't seem like that would do any good as insulation of any form. Rodent control seems like a possibility.It would interesting to hear if anyone has come across this in the South.

          18. Piffin | Sep 19, 2007 07:46pm | #57

            With the way they built right here, it did help with insulating as a form of controlling convection currents.A lot of these places were a kind of modified post and beam.
            They laid a sill of about 8x8 on the foundation, then framed the floor to it. Sometimes it was 2x12 notched to have 4" above the sill, and sometimes it was 2x8 slapped right over it or half notched onto it. Regardless of how much, they always had a gap there between floor and sill. The subfloor only covered to the studs,not back into that space, The noggin I've seen set on the sill.The corner posts of the house were 6x6 or 8x8, as was the upper "plate" timber.The studs were 2x4 toenailed in between that upper timber and the sill. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        2. Hazlett | Sep 16, 2007 02:42pm | #28

          WNYguy--- i think pratt&lambert was bought a year or so ago by sherwin williams----please don't take that as fact-- I could easily be wrong------but I think I read a newspaper article as sherwin williams is considered a pretty local company here.

          stephen

          1. Piffin | Sep 16, 2007 03:07pm | #30

            I think it was more like 2-3 years ago. See how fast we are getting older? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. WNYguy | Sep 16, 2007 03:59pm | #31

            Paul, try 11 years ago!

            From the New York Times, Feb. 21, 1996:

            "About 200 employees of Pratt & Lambert United Inc. in Buffalo will lose their jobs by the end of May, a spokesman for the Sherwin-Williams Company said on Monday. Sherwin-Williams, which acquired Pratt & Lambert in January for $400 million, said it would close the company's headquarters and a paint plant. Sherwin-Williams, based in Cleveland, makes paints under the Sherwin-Williams and Dutch Boy brand names."

            I understand that Sherwin-Williams kept the name, but not the paint formulations.  There were a number of former P&L employees who started a new paint company in Buffalo, and made some very good paint.  But it didn't stay in business long.

            Allen

          3. Piffin | Sep 16, 2007 04:09pm | #33

            Se3e how time flies when you are having fun?!From that long ago, NOBODY is using the same formulas because of low VOC standards now 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        3. Piffin | Sep 16, 2007 03:05pm | #29

          Sherwin williams now markets the P&L paint brand. I don't know if it is still chemically the same, but they have the computerized mix formulas and can make you up a matching colour for any of the P&L paint colours in a SW paint store. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  8. User avater
    McDesign | Sep 16, 2007 07:56pm | #37

    Welcome here.  I also have an old (1886) house.  I researched for years for the best exterior prep.  Finally found a TOH article about a NE painter doing his own house.

    Called and talked to him - great guy.  Here's the plan.

    1) PaintShave, SilentRemover, or whatever, down to BRIGHT wood.

    2) Renail during/after as required & repair/replace.  Perfectly.

    3) WoodLife clear wood treatment (WB) - hose it on

    4) Sand with 80, then 120 in a 5" ROS - scrape in corners

    5) WB primer.

    6) 50-yr caulk

    7) Primer again

    8) First color coat(s)

    9) Second color coat(s)

    This is the way.  I've done most other choices; AFAIC, this is the best and only way I'll do it.

    Forrest - convinced!

    1. dirtyturk | Sep 17, 2007 04:52pm | #42

      McDesign, thanks for the comprehensive response. Nothing noted was too surprising; but you kind of lost me with 'WB primer'. Sorry I didn't get that. Water based? Manufacturer? Wooly Bear? Or is that the same as the "Woodlife"clear wood treatment?

      ciao, ted

      1. User avater
        McDesign | Sep 17, 2007 05:17pm | #44

        Yeah - water-based.  Woodlife Classic is what I get.

        Forrest

  9. WayneL5 | Sep 18, 2007 03:21am | #47

    According to the U.S. Forest Products Laboratory, bare wood can weather in less than two weeks sufficiently to alter the lifespan of a finish by an amount that is measureable.  It must be sanded lightly and primed less than two weeks after sanding.

    According to the book Paint in America (which I recommend if you are an architect) water based primers and topcoats last considerably longer than oil based paints.  This was not true 50 years ago.  Acrylic primers and topcoats last longer than acrylic/latex blends.  Therefore, the longest lasting generally available paint for exterior wood is 100% acrylic primer followed by sufficient 100% acrylic topcoats (generally two coats).

    1. User avater
      Jeff_Clarke | Sep 18, 2007 06:27am | #49

      You're welcome to continue priming with water-based primer ... let me know when the tannins bleed through!

      However, you'll find you can't beat the following combination:

      Cabot Problem Solver Alkyd primer

      10% Penetrol

      Mildewcide

       

      Jeff

      1. Piffin | Sep 19, 2007 01:12pm | #53

        I am marking that down. I have never had a problem with any Cabot product and am very impressed with them. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. Piffin | Sep 19, 2007 01:10pm | #52

      "It must be sanded lightly and primed less than two weeks after sanding."That is why I suggested that he sand no more than he can prime on the same day. seven hours of sanding can easily be primed in one hour of brushing. That is how I like to see it here, because it is very easy for weather to mess you up. Say a guy plans to sand four days and paint one. Then bad weather hits that day and settles in for a spell. By time the siding is dry again, it may have already been exposed for 2-3 weeks.It is practical too, if you are working off staging to get one area all done before moving the setup. I know, most painter work off ladders, but a full bore restoration means some wood repair too so we have staging going around. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. dirtyturk | Sep 19, 2007 10:35pm | #59

        Piffin, going to jump in here about the sanding.  I intend to do as correctly suggested in that after I reattach or replace the siding I'll definitely only sand an area large enought to be painted the same day. And that because the weather in Northern Ohio is unpredictable. 

        ciao. ted

  10. cynwyd | Sep 19, 2007 09:02pm | #58

    This paint deserves a look, in the end it's cheaper because it lasts longer.

    Looking through the catalog,  the over riding difference from the other manufactures  to me is that they are very serious about paint.

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction

The crew talks about work start times, fire-resistant construction, fixer-uppers, building Larsen trusses, and AI for construction.

Featured Video

Builder’s Advocate: An Interview With Viewrail

Learn more about affordable, modern floating stairs, from design to manufacturing to installation.

Related Stories

  • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding Hazardous Materials in a Fixer-Upper
  • A Classic Paint Sprayer Gets a Thoughtful Refresh
  • Podcast Episode 692: Introduction to Trade Work, Embodied Carbon, and Envelope Improvements

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data