Partition wall into sloped ceiling
Hi all-
We have a bonus room in our house that is over our garage. Two of the three exterior walls (the non-gable ends) are knee-walled at four feet, intersecting with the roof. I want to convert it into a bedroom for our two little whirling dervishes… er, toddler boys.
When the house was built I had the bonus room “mostly” finished – it’s insulated, heated/cooled, lights and outlets in place (and working), etc.
I even had it drywalled… the only things left to do are to (a) build a partition wall to form a closet, drywall that, get carpeting down, do trim work and paint.
I have fairly decent DIY level skills – I can do some decent trim work (albeit slowly!), minor electrical, tile, etc. I have all the proper tools (and then some according to my wife).
I know how to construct a standard partition wall and have done so before… but the intersection between the wall and the sloped ceiling has me a little puzzled… what’s the best way to run the partition wall into the sloped ceiling, given the ceiling is already drywalled?
I realize you want a good bearing surface for the drywall as it meets with the sloped ceiling and also good anchoring of the partition wall itself.
Given the wall is going to run the entire width of the room (from interior wall partition in place now to exterior gable wall) it’s going to be a little tight to do this as a build it on the floor and stand it up… although I suppose I could do that in sections.
Do I need to put some kind of ledger board across the length of the slopped ceiling for the partition wall to tie into? or am I going to nail through the partition wall top plate into the rafters to secure it?
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I can take photos and post if that would help!
Thanks!
Replies
With finished drywall, I'd stick-build it.
If it's convenient to land the top plate on a rafter, great -- start by installing top and bottom plates.
If that would mean that the closet would either be too big or too small, you can float the top plate between rafters. Glue and a few toggles will work to attach a 2x4, but my favorite top plate in this situation is two layers of 1x4.
A 1x4 tends to be flatter, or at least can be pushed flat and tight more easily. Have a couple of temporary studs and angled props ready, glue the first layer and stitch it to the drywall with a finish nailgun, and leave it overnight.
Next day, add the 2nd layer of 1x4, and continue normally.
It's easiest to cut the studs if you figure out what's called the common difference, that is, the length that you add to each successive stud to get the length of the next tallest, 16" over.
There's a right way to do this, but, with the stud layout on the bottom plate, you can start by fitting the shortest stud tight to the kneewall. Don't attach it yet.
When you're satisfied with the length and the angle at the top, fit the next stud 16" away, cutting it a bit long, and trimming it until it stands plumb.
Now stack the two studs with their bottom ends flush, and measure the difference in length. Continue by stacking each successive stud on the stock for the next, and marking the common difference. And, while you're at it, cut two of everything, so that you can frame the other side of the slope, too.
Your studs won't end up perfectly plumb because of crown in the rafter, sag in the floor, etc, but usually they'll be good enough.
Take a bit more time at the door, and cut the king studs a little long at first, creeping up on the fit until they're plumb.
Good luck!
AitchKay
Aitch-Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear (and that's entirely possible when I use construction jargon!)... but the partition wall is going to run parallel to the knee wall... so each stud will be the same height. top plate of stud wall intersects the sloped roof... maybe I have to stick build it with an angle cut on the top of the studs so they tie into the top plate that's nailed across the sloped roof into the rafters? Maybe I'm over thinking the top-plate/roof intersection thing too much.... ?
Why not build an eight ft (or whatever) high closet with a ceiling on top and use the top portion for storage or plants?
Just a thought.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Door position and preferred layout of beds/furniture prohibits an 8 foot wall...
I'd determine the required depth of the closet, then snap a line on the ceiling parallel to the knee wall, nail up a 2x4, drop a plumb line from the outside of each end of that 2x4, snap a line on the floor, nail down a bottom plate leaving the openings for the closet doors. Mark your stud positions.Then you'll measure from the bottom plate outside edge to the top plate outside edge which will give you the long point for your stud. Determine the angle of the cut - add an eighth to the length, tap gently into place, nail.
Thanks Ralph... I thought it might be something like that... I suppose the DW can "float" at that wall/ceiling intersection... as the edge of the 2x4 nailed to the sloped wall won't be plumb...
This is a view of your new wall. A screw 2" or more down from the ceiling is not much of a float.
Thanks Ralph - very helpful!Let me know if you ever need any help with any marketing related issues... (web site, selling materials, etc.).That's what I can contribute from an expertise basis to this forum.
Oops. No, you said that it would intersect with the gable wall, I just missed that.We always used to rip a 2x6 at the angle of the slope to provide full support at the top, but Ralph’s method will work fine as long as the slope is around 12/12 or greater. On shallower slopes, as in Ralph’s drawing, the top plate will interfere with the drywall on the inside of the closet. If you extend the plane of the inside of the stud -- hold a sheet of paper up to your screen -- you’ll see how this is. Since you’d have to rip down the top plate one way or another, you might as well cut it to match the slope, at least on the outside.Then again, the inside wall/ceiling intersection will be hard to tape and finish, so you might want to build it Ralph’s way, and cover the bad joint with molding.AitchKay
To be more specific when using this technique, the scarf cut on the stud yields a perfect overhang on the inside of the wall at a pitch of 12/12 so you are correct that interference with an unbeveled plate is decreased as the pitch increases.Fitting drywall as opposed to wood is less critical and I use my utility knife liberally on the back of the drywall edge to gain whatever clearance or fitting I need at lessor pitches. I used to be extremely anal about beveling and fitting framing members but as some say, it's not like building a piano.
"Not like building a piano"... ha, I'll have to remember that one!Since the ugly joint in this case would be inside the closet and to view it you would have to go in the closet, turn head and look up.... well... let's just say that I won't probably worry about it too much.I think the pitch is 12/12 though...have to dig out the plans and look... but it seems pretty close to it from the eyeball test.
Butting in again...<G>It would appear that your closet will be staking claim to a section of floor greater than 3' wide, the length of the room, if you plan to use full size doors (80") and trim them inside and out. This butting the top of the head casing to the ceiling inside and maybe leaving a couple of inches of wall exposed outside.If you went with the standard 2' closet depth you'll need to build/buy doors about 6' tall. At this point your hanging rod will be about 4' off the floor. Either way you'll have access to a wedge shaped shelf space above the rod.Can your bonus room spare the space necessary for the closet and still have room to house the rug rats, beds, dressers, etc? To be nosy, what are the room dimensions, including door and window positions?
Hi Ralph-Ballpark I'd say the room runs about 13' deep from door/partition wall to the gable wall. From knee wall to knee wall it's about... 24 feet? I'll run a tape measure up in there tomorrow to verify (My 2 year old is asleep in there as I type this... we put his crib in there when he got "bumped" from his previous room when our 6 month old graduated up from the bassinet).The room should be plenty big... the twin bed headboards fit underneath the knee wall opposite of where the closet will go and there's plenty of wall space for dresser, etc.... at least it "looks like it"... haven't put pencil to paper yet to lay it out but it's around 300 sq. feet... that should be enough!Depth wise the closet can be made deeper than standard... and that is our intent. We will put in a shelf above the hanging rod that will run the length of the closet. Was thinking of two bi-fold door sections (1 for each boy) but not sure if that would fit or not.Let me measure it up and reply tomorrow evening with dimensions including door and window position.Thanks!
Room dimensions:21'-1" wide by 13' deep.Short sides of the rectangle are the knee walls.As you enter the room, the door swings in to the left... to your left is one knee wall at 5'-8" away from the hinge side of the door. On the short section of interior partition wall before the knee wall is an outlet, 28" out from the corner. There is another outlet on the left knee wall about 4'-4" from the outer/gable wall.The other knee wall is to the right at 13'-11" away (30 inch door). This is where the twin beds will butt up against.Along the outer/gable wall is a window that sits 8'-8" from the left knee wall. With casing it is 44" wide. Also on that outer gable wall are two outlets, both at 5' in from the knee wall.It does appear that I will need to find some wood bifolds to cut down... or I'll have to eat most of the 5'-8" space for the closet to be able to fit a standard 80" door. Or... make it an "open" closet... frame out two openings and case them... but don't install doors.If it matters, the casing is 3-1/2" on the door and window. It has a thicker outer edge profile to it... it's 1-1/8" deep.Other notes... the knee wall where the beds will go also has an outlet at 5' from the corner... along with phone/cable outlets. There is one additional outlet on the interior partition wall.. to the right of the door entrance, about 1 foot (below the switch for the lights).So... thoughts?
How tall is the knee wall which will be enclosed by the closet?
Is ceiling a full cathedral or does it flatten at some point? If so, how far out from knee wall? Ceiling height at flat section? This info info allows pitch calculation. If full cathedral, need height of knee wall, + height of peak, + distance from knee wall to peak (measured across the floor).
Pitch will make a difference when calculating a closet depth as to practical hanging rod position as the rod will need to be at least 12" from the back wall to function usefully (and 12" from the back of the front wall also). Any space above the rod could be utilized as shelf space.
FYI, a standard 6 panel, solid, bifold door can be easily cut into a 4 panel door with heights ranging from 44-1/2" to 47-1/2" if the bottom is discarded, or 63-1/2" to 66-1/2" if the top is discarded. I would be inclined to use a 4/0 or greater width for the doors.
Your casing sounds suspiciously like 3-1/2" "Adam" casing.
Any outlets "swallowed" by the closet can be just left in place or converted to junction box duty. Looks like you will need to add some outlets in the open space of the room both from a practical and a code compliance standpoint.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"How tall is the knee wall which will be enclosed by the closet?"The Knee walls are 4 ft. tall. Note that they are exterior walls. Perhaps that doesn't technically make them knee walls?"Is ceiling a full cathedral or does it flatten at some point? If so, how far out from knee wall? Ceiling height at flat section? This info info allows pitch calculation. "The ceiling is not cathedral - it's clipped at the same height as the rest of the second floor (standard 8').I can get you the measurements for where it flattens out... basically you are doing rise/run for the hypotenuse of the triangle, right?I do know that it flattens out past the hinge side of the door... I was going to run a level over from the top of the door casing to see where that line intersected the slope... drop a plumb line down from there and measure to see how deep that would make the closet... adding a little depth to that so it would give some space above the casing for the closet doors before the closet wall intersected the slope...
(hopefully that made sense)."Your casing sounds suspiciously like 3-1/2" "Adam" casing."Nope, it's not symmetrical... it has a thinner inner bead, thicker outer bead and a thick back band... looking online I believe it's a Windsor casing. That looks right. "Any outlets "swallowed" by the closet can be just left in place or converted to junction box duty. Looks like you will need to add some outlets in the open space of the room both from a practical and a code compliance standpoint."Had thought about converting at least one to a junction box so I could run some lighting within the closet from them.Per the outlets/code... the building inspector reviewed and approved the house with the bonus space being considered liveable... (I'm already getting taxed like it is...) so we should be all set there.
>>I can get you the measurements for where it flattens out... basically you are doing rise/run for the hypotenuse of the triangle, right?<<
Zactly, so we can figure out just how deep the closet needs to be to be functional.
Known: more than 2', question is how much more - dependent on slope of wall.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Ok, now you are in trouble <G>.13' is just about right for two beds, working space between and each side and a shared nightstand or a pair on the sides of the bed.If you plan to use the entire opposite wall for closets then you'll have to consider the partition wall space to the right of the door for other wall hugging furniture like dressers, unless...how are your cabinet building skills?Consider building your closet wall as if it were a huge armoire with doors and drawers. You'll save about 4" by not using studs and drywall and you won't have to buy dressers. You can order cabinet doors and drawers faces to fit any kind of cabinet arrangement you can design.One of the reasons I suggest this is because I do odd shaped built-ins between studs and in corners and with stock and some special order doors an ordinary space can be dressed up considerably and normally unused space can be salvaged.Now, guess what you have on the bed wall? A 4' tall knee wall with an opportunity to slide some boxes between the studs. With applied face frames and some doors or drawers and there you have some nice built-ins that are perfect for folded clothes or toys. Add a pull out top, like a kitchen bread board, and there's the shared night stand or work surface to keep the crayons busy making drawings to display on the frig. Above the tops is still enough room for open shelves for more books or toys.C'mon, get busy.
If our guy's got the skills, I'm 100% with you as to built-ins. I've done something like that that in a similar situation, with progressively-deeper drawers going down the slope.And I like the "breadboard"/nightstand/desk idea a lot.Aitchkay
Well Ralph.... I hope that you are not within a day's drive of New Hampshire as my wife will track you down and put a hurtin' on you for giving me such ideas! Seriously though... I had contemplated a built-in but with the hanging space, shelf, and dresser space along the wall we should be more than fine. hadn't thought about it like your suggestion though... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............There's also time (mostly) and money (a smaller factor.. but a factor) constraints here... I would love to create a built-in but now is not the opportunity.I'm saving that for our dining room... there's a bump out space formed on the common wall with the garage that's just begging for a built in... at some point in the future when my kids are finally IN school...well, I guess I could float a trial balloon with She Who Must Be Obeyed about the built-in idea..... never hurts to ask, right?Yeah, well, sometimes it actually does hurt to ask... she's petite, but she's feisty...
BTW, if I wasn't clear... the knee walls are exterior walls... so making built-ins with that won't work so well...
"BTW, if I wasn't clear... the knee walls are exterior walls... so making built-ins with that won't work so well..."?? Are you saying that that the builder zig-zagged the insulation down the kneewall, instead of continuing it down the slope of the rafters?That shouldn't be a big problem anyway, even if you have to relocate/beef up some insulation.As for built-ins, don't forget that you can build and finish them in your garage. When one is done, you can cut out for it, and install it in an hour or so.So there's no need to worry about a six-month construction site, or anything like that. Just picture the kids' room getting better and better by painless leaps, one weekend at a time.AitchKay
Sounds like knee wall was a misnomer. He's got a half-height exterior wall in plane with the first floor wall. Either there is a height restriction, a full sized second floor wouldn't fit with the design of the house or "bonus" room is a sly way of the builder charging more for something "special" that's not a true second story.Darn, we had the design juices flowing there for a while.What the heck. He's got 21' to play with. He could build out both walls to get the built-in look and do it a box at a time in the garage. Leave the car(s) on the street.
Edited 10/13/2009 11:46 pm ET by RalphWicklund
I like a 1 and a 1/2 story homes with several gable exteriors.
I like the idea of a run of cabinets on each side of a closet for hanging. It makes the room feel bigger and it gives you different use setups from dresser drawers to desk areas.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Yes Ralph, sorry, misnomer.
It is a 1/2 height exterior wall in plane with the first floor wall.
Original plan was for a smaller bonus room but framer suggested adding the 1/2 height wall for the extra space... we said "cool".
Extra cash for the finishing wasn't that bad at all...
The only thing it did was mess up the facade of the house a touch in terms of window size/scale... as it raised up the window in the bonus room in relation to the garage windows below it (which is a set of three smaller windows... about 2' high each).
No problem during Christmas season as we put giant wreath between them - looks really nice actually - but rest of year it's a bit too much siding. We talked about getting a big metal star (kind of a traditional thing in new england) at one point to swap with the wreath... but never did order that.
You can use shutters for louvered closet doors if you need short ones too.6'2" is not too hard to get in doors though
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Ralph, re the discussion of how the plate fits without a bevel rip - I knew I have done this with no problems, but Could not recall every detail so I made a scale drawing. There is no problem with the corner of the plate getting n the way of the SR
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Could be, but OP has not gotten back re roof pitch.As I said earlier, "...Ralph’s method will work fine as long as the slope is around 12/12 or greater. On shallower slopes, as in Ralph’s drawing, the top plate will interfere with the drywall.."OP replies that he thinks it's 12/12... but if it's lower, as in Ralph's drawing, the top plate needs to be ripped.AitchKay
No it doesn't. I have 8/12 in my house and no rip. You gonna make me do this at 8/12 and 4/12 to?
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"You gonna make me do this at 8/12 and 4/12 to?"Great idea, Pif. Thanks!Well, you can get your board within about 1/4” on an 8/12. Probably good enough, especially if you gob on some extra glue when you hang the board, or monkey around with back-beveling. But don’t try it on a 4/12.I’ve seen some studs with a really jumbo RO easing, maybe 3/8”- 1/2” radius, that look like they were designed so as not to give handy homeowners splinters. They might be perfect in a situation like this -- LOTS of wood missing from their corners.I don't know where you can buy them, though -- my yard doesn’t carry them.AitchKay
Ok, with a 3/12, you have 1/2" shy of intersect to pack with mud or trim the SR.With 8/12, the SR hits plate as it hits the upper rock.Personally I don't think I have ever done one of these at less than 8/12
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Interesting. I get about 1/4" gap at 8/12 with the lumber I use. Regional differences, I guess, something like those ultra-rounded 2xs I mentioned earlier.But I bet even with my lumber I could cull out a couple of waney-edged pieces just for those plates and avoid ripping. If not, and if I was hanging the board myself, I'd back-bevel it -- so I'm with you that far.If I'm subbing out the hanging, though, I'd probably rip the plate. Inside GWB corners get built up enough as it is, so no way am I going to add to the problem.AitchKay
Hey Fellas=Didn't get a chance to measure... just got done with work... But I dug out the plans and the roof slope is 8/12.Re: headboards: We know they already fit as we've purchased a twin bed set that can become a bunk bed; presently we use them separately in a smaller room and the height of the headboard is less than the height of the short exterior "knee" wall..Layout wise we were going to push the beds against the partition and gable wall as that allows us to use the bed rail thing that keeps the kiddos from rolling out of bed in the middle of the night. My 2 year old is an active sleeper...so we need to kind of pen him in.re: Window: It is a double hung six over six pane window... Pretty sure it's up to snuff code wise as the room was inspected like it was finished space for a bedroom already.
I'll redo that with 8/12 pitch then. The closet will need to be deeper or the doors would be shorter. What I drew was with a 12/12 pitch ceiling. In my place, I *think* that my doors are 6'2" with a 28" deep closet, but it's been ten years since I bolt it, and I don't get up there very often now that wife has turned it into her sewing room ( kids grown and gone)
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Cool, thanks Piffin!
So here you go at 8/12This is how I would go at this probably ( without giving it a ot of thought)
The bifolds on these are 6'6" tall with the closet wall 4' out. You can do shelves in the backl of closet for the selddom used stuff and have a normal rod for hangers
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I am making a drawing of this room with your dimensions so all reading can conceptualize this better, but along that wall the door is in does not agree with overall of 21'1". With 30" door I get 22-1" adding them up
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OK, here is what I see. Checck this out to see if it is right dimensions.Note that I dim opennings to center, and walls to frame, not finished surface, so assuming 1/2" drywall....I made the closet front wall 7'2" tall which is adequate for typical doors and leaves three feet inside closet and plenty floor space. Not sure I I understood things right, but I think I read about nooks for student desk or bureau? I drew this for a 42" student desk, which is minimum you would want.Annyhooo...going home now. See ya later
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Wow, that's cool. Did you do that in Sketchup? I've always wanted to set aside some time to learn how to use that.
I'll run a tape back up there tomorrow to verify the dimensions as you have them laid out and also to get that slope verified. Room has a snoring toddler in it right now and I have a boatload of work to do yet tonight.
I use Softplan CAD.Question comes up about that window. You need to have an egress window in any bedroom. The codes detail minimum sizes. Since I am on my first cup of coffee right now, I don't recall the exact details. Thinking 2.7 sq ft clear openning minimum
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another sip of Java and I remember something else I forgot to mention as I posted that drawing. I pulled those beds out from the kneewall because you are going top have a headroom problem there at the head of the bed. If you don't own these yet, look for the kind of headboard that has a built in bookcase. That would add about 10" there
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Beveling the outside pitch might be called anal, but making sure that the top plate doesn't stick 1/2" out of the wall on the inside is just called framing.It's risky to ask a rocker to fix a framer's mistakes -- the framer is usually the more skilled and careful of the two. And boarding is supposed to go fast, with no tweaking and fiddling.If you are boarding it yourself, no one is going to yell at you, but it's best to do it right, especially when coaching a novice.AitchKay
Hey Piffin-
Looks like I'm goint to tackle this project over the Turkey Day weekend.
Question for you - your dimensions indicate a depth of 4'-5" from the "knee wall". What happens if I make that length 4' even for ease of drywalling?
Thanks!
whale now...I'll have to go re-read to see what this thread was all about....
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You can double check things in place, but the distance I indicate is minimum for being able to use any sort of normal door height in that wall.I can't get into that program right now to check any thing else, because my key is on the laptop at my jobsite.
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That's what I figured. Guess it means an extra sheet or two of DW will have to be brought up there.I hate drywall.Just sayin.
You can get 'stretch' sheets of sheetrock that are 4'-6" wide and not have joints.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
or use that 3/8" T&G cedaar 'paneling' for a cedar closet
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wait a minute.... is that something akin to a 2x4 "stretcher"?:)
No - there are 4'-6" wide sheets of drywall. Great for nine foot ceilings.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Guy at home depot thought it was a bit of leg pulling too....but then again, it's a guy at home depot...
The 9' thing makes sense and a little google search confirmed it.
Of course... it's specialty stuff which means a special order...
And I think the final depth of the closet is greater than 54"... I'll measure in the morning.
FYI, I did end up ripping a 34 degree bevel on the exterior "face"of the top plate so that the SR is fully supported up to the ceiling.
If that doesn't make sense... I'll post a picture tomorrow.