Got a call today from an interior designer who got my name from a mutual friend and client. She would like to form some kind of relationship where I would be their primary installer of whatever it is they need to have installed.
Anyone ever enter into a similar relationship, and what should I watch out for?
We are scheduled for a sit-and-chat next Monday morning.
“I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.” Invictus, by Henley.
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Replies
I work with a kitchen designer. She has delivered over a half million in high-end kitchen business to me over the last 3-4 years. We know each others idiosyncracies quite well now and work well together.
If this person is going to drive business your way and with the kind of clients that engage an interior designer(the kind you want), and you get along well, then do everything you can to keep this person happy.
How is the arrangment set up? Assuming you are not a dedicated employee, do you draft a contract for the job, as you would any other project?
Also, assuming you have other work besides that provided by the designer, if a more immediate type of project is presented by the designer, do you alter your present schedule to accomodate?
Thanks for your replies"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
do you draft a contract for the job, as you would any other project?
I now always write up some kind of agreement about each job, even with friends and relatives on small stuff, just to keep the relationship and the work clear and businesslike. The same with changes. Even if you change something simple over the phone, write it down and get it initialed at the next opportunity.
I've made this kind of mistake many times, trying to keep things flexible and friendly. In the end I've always asked myself why I didn't get paid for so many small things that weren't in the original agreement. I hope that it leaves the other person with a good impression of me but I doubt that it does.
Also, assuming you have other work besides that provided by the designer, if a more immediate type of project is presented by the designer, do you alter your present schedule to accomodate?
That's what this kind of close, continuing relationship is all about, being responsive in a predictable manner.
She wants to give the impression of being in control of her workforce when she's selling a job. "I'll have my foreman stop by early next week to inspect that. Then I'll be able to give you a better idea of what options are available, what kind of budget and when we can start. I should have all that together for you by next weekend."
If you understand how important it is to work with her in that way...with a positive attitude...to help her sell the job, you'll get along well and should be able to negotiate a healthy profit for yourself.
Edited 5/7/2008 1:02 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Typically, the person with the most pull calls the shots and is the primary contractor, regardless of what specialty the two are in. Don't get hung up on them being your partner, but in how to do good work for the client and get paid for it while keeping everyone happy.
Essentially the legal view of these situations points to who will get paid and who won't when things go wrong.
Looking at it from the perspective of who has the power in the relationship is more realistic of how these things work out in real life.
For instance if an architect also has a contract for construction of the building then I'm working primarily for the architect (formal power).
If the architect doesn't have a contract to build, but is the person pulling the strings on who gets the job, I'm still working for the architect in a way (semi-formal power). I'm keeping him happy in order to get more work in the future.
If a client has an architect but hires me separately then I don't have a responsibility toward the architect other than to work with them in a separate but equal relationship. The power balance depends on my actions verses the actions of the architect and it could go either way depending on who the client trusts (earned power).
However, in the same situation if I want to do more work with an architect I haven't work with in the past, then I treat them as an important stake holder (informal power).
If I hire the architect then the roles are reversed to the same degrees as above.
Regardless of how a situation starts, one party can increase or decrease their power based on their actions and interactions with the person writing the check.
In most situations I want to work directly for the client and not be caught up in a 3-way relationship with someone else who might drop the ball. (It's my way of tipping the power balance in my favor.)
In reality I don't conciously think in the terms above, but it fairly accurately describes how business works--from one angle anyway. It's like a road map--it's just a partial representation of what's really there and is incomplete.
Another view that can help is that of resources to complete a goal. If the goal is to build a house then every person I come in contact with in the building trades will have resources of various values to contribute. Most resources are easy to quantify, but others have indirect benefits that can catch a person off guard.
Resources are the cost vs. benefit decisions we have to make on a daily basis. If your interior designer has terrible clients and equally bad designs then the cost might not outweigh the benefits.
Yet another view could be pure profitablilty. You can think only in terms of which project, partner, or niche would make you the most money. You're maximizing income in the short term, but in the long term you might never grow into the better niches that require focused attention to get into.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Wow, now that's a perspective I hadn't thought of. Reminded me of flow-charts I used to see at the utility I once worked for.
Interesting, I was reading your respond when I realized I hadn't a clue if I would be paid by the client or the designers. Another question for Monday morning.
Thanks for the unique perspective.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Wow, you got a lot of replies on this one. We now handle jobs like a design/build firm, but the client pays us separately. I will create a proposal for the client based on the designer's plans.
I find these jobs probably the most satisfying because of the design element. We are constantly working with new materials and having to overcome design challenges. I especially enjoy the collaboration, the give and take, in putting these projects together.
Also, because the project has been thought through, the client really ends up enjoying the finished product.
So you get the designers plans/specs, then put a package together for the home owner? What, if any, part in the project does the designer play after the initial accepted design? Sounds like they would be out of the loop, then, no? "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
My designer also orders all the finish materials: cabinets, faucets, countertops, tile, etc. This takes a huge load off my shoulders. Throughout the project we are constantly touch base to discuss progress of the job, what works and does not work for future jobs, and generally brainstorm.
I have not had any luck hooking up with other designers, but I am always on the lookout.
If you are working for the designer, you have a typical subcontractor arrangement.
If you are working for the HO, this gets more complicated. Who is responsible? Who marks up what? How are decisions handled? And a hundred other questions the answers to which may change from job to job. Obviously this type of arrangement will need a great deal of trust and planning.
Before your meeting write down all your concerns and ask about each and every one of them. You shouldn't be able to get answers to them all unless the designer is just stringing you along, but it will at least show that you are serious about this. Hopefully the designer will have their own set of expectations which you can consider at your leisure. Don't rush into anything. A trial job will tell you more than any words will. After that you will know about any long term relationship.
Thanks, a good point in writing down concerns/questions. I'll have to do that this weekend.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
WIth the right person and right arrangement this could be an extremely valuable relationship. However, my experience is that 7 out of 10 interior designers are a little flighty and self centered ( Gross generalization , I know). Just like any business arrangement , protect yourself and your reputation. Good luck!!!
Most interior designers are paid a percentage of the job's dollar amount. You have to be careful that they aren't specifying obscure, hard to work with, materials just to run the price up.
You also have to make sure they are realistic. Some design ideas are WAY out there. Which can be difficult, near impossible, to create.
Make sure you have input on the design from a pure construction stand point. Basically, no designs that require an anti-gravity device.
Make sure they are giving customer's realistic time and price estimates.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Good point about the design issues. I'm not sure that will be much of a factor, though. It's a small firm (2 women) and their projects are (if I read them right from several phone conversations) relatively smaller in scope, as well.
Thanks. And if you ever find one of those anti-gravity thingamajigs, give me a shout.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
dustin covered the most important stuff.
some designers know how remodeling work and some don't and/or don't care.
you won't know till U give it a go.
I've worked with more than a handful of designers in the past.
starting a new job with a new designer this Sat.
I'll let ya know in a coupla weeks if I found a good one.
The bad ones ... are very good at "scape-goating".
they are in the end who the home owners will trust and believe.
I've had a coupla very good ones thru the years ... and 10 fold bad.
Don't be shy about cutting your losses.
I write up an individual contract for each and every job.
I also never give time preference. I'm a "first come-first serve" guy.
But ... I do let them all know once we agree on price and I start ...
they are my priority.
Pretty much the same deal I work with my own customers.
find out what they want from you.
installer or GC.
then price and contract accordingly.
done well it's a nice way to make good money and everyone wins.
I've found that don't happen too often.
first biggest flag ... "why am I here anyways"
that's always my frist question ... why me? What happened to the last guy?
then pay close attention ... maybe he was an idiot ...
maybe he got real smart real quick!
I've also found the higher end designers the better.
more money makes everything better. Wanna be high end are the worst ...
champage dreams on a beer budget. They already set ya up for the big fall.
lower end and realistic ... not a bad thing either.
it's all on how they set the table with their clients.
and as has been already said ... double and triple check "times and schedules"
once got called in after a successful job to explain why the job took the amount of time I had written the contract for! I said "6 to 7 weeks" ... and bid it at 6.5.
told them to tell the customer 7 to 8 weeks.
the head designer thot "4 to 6 weeks" ... so naturally he told the customer 4.
Customer on the very first day said This is our thrid kitchen remodel and largest ... and the smallest wasn't done in 4 weeks ... so we're expecting at least 8.
They were thrilled with the 7 week end result.
I got paid in full. No customer concerns at all. They loved everything about their job.
and I got called in and asked if I'd explain why ended up taking 7 weeks.
Just said 'Cause that's what I said it would!
they pointed out their designer thot 4 to 6 ...
I said Oh ... that's easy. 'Cause he's an idiot.
was pretty sure we weren't gonna work together after that.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
THanks for the insightful reply. This is my first 'partnership' with a designer, so your comments and experiances are appreciated. I know very little about these two women, but will find out more Monday morning.
I'm actually hoping it pans out positive; the more contacts that produce work, the better; but you have to ensure to KYA, I understand that concept perfectly.
Thanks again.
BTW, I loved the story about the idiot designer. Classic.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I have worked for designers. One that still gives me nightmares had impeccable taste and her customers were definately high end. She'd flit about waving her arms and customers loved it.... Unfortunately the job never ended up being as she outlined and never paid a dime more then her original scope. I covered her #### fixing screw ups more on the job because she was too busy.
After 3 jobs I realized she lacked the legal ability to contract home improvement jobs in the state of Maryland and we parted ways.
Thanks for bringing this up and I hope I helped because you just wiped out a couple of grand invested in therapy.
You know, if it were me I'd sure ask to see some of their work, just as though you were going to hire them as designers for yourself. Even if it's photos, you can get an idea of what you might be expected to do and see the scope of the projects they get into and also form an opinion about their experience level and competence. You might bring them photos of your work also so that they can confirm the validity of the referral they received.
Someone mentioned in another post about the "arm wavers"...been there, done that, learned the hard way. They won't take 5 minutes to review things, they think just because they thought it up it can be done and cheaply, they promise everything under the sun to their clients, etc. Most qualified designers I know are very business-like in their approach to subs and are happy to lay out their requirements and scopes of work for you.
BTW, I'm not only a kitchen designer, but an commercial interior designer. Oops...hope the ASID police are not lurking about somewhere. In this state I can officially call myself a designer.
Thanks, I hadn't thought of asking for examples of their work, though I was planning to bring a portfolio of my own. They are a fairly new partnership, I believe, with the one I have communicated with being fairly new to the design arena, so I'm not sure what challenges that will bring in addition to all the rest.
Thanks for your perspective. The replies have really been enlightening.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
At the moment, I'm sub'ing for a guy who worked as a subcontractor for the company that employed me as project manager. Now he's the GC, and our former boss acts as the designer, paid on commission. Although she sells the job, he collects the checks and pays her.
She works from home. They advertise a business line that's connected at her house, not his. She will visit the client's home and do all the design work and even order all the product, all as part of her fee. The GC produces quotes for the client.
They use a local cabinet supplier, so the clients can visit the manufacturer's showroom if they want.
In our former outfit, a couple of 'suits' (I mean that nicely) would design, price and sell the job entirely, without any 'toolbelts' even seeing the design. This caused no end of headaches, or worse.
I like this new arrangement a lot better. This way, the buck stops with the installer. He goes over the design *before* the client signs the contract, so he can make any necessary changes to make the design workable or economical.
Edited 5/8/2008 8:33 am ET by Biff_Loman
Edited 5/8/2008 8:42 am ET by Biff_Loman
My fiance is an interior designer specializing in selections for builders and remodelers. She works with several specialty subs who just pay her a referral fee when she does homeowner work. The furniture stores and Pro source do the same thing.
A good designer is a good salesperson also who has the customers trust and can convey the job with sketches such as tile layouts and other picture needed details. I would never remodel or build without a designer. Unfortunately, you can build the most solid , leakproof, energy efficient house in the world but looks and floor plans are what makes you the rock star and your competition contractors.
Edited 5/9/2008 8:23 am ET by shellbuilder
I think you have gotten a pretty good response: all of them good.
You are essentially "networking", not partnering. Your new designers might not even know how they want to arrange the relationship and might be looking for you to give them their solution. Done right, they are out there selling you...at your price. Done wrong.....well, you already know how that could turn out.
Like Jeff, I'd give it a whirl if I needed or wanted more work. I did like the advice that suggested tilting the control to you. The control issue will be the main issue with any network and the ladies might love handing over the control and just be satisfied for their small piece of the action.
To better understand them, think about what they are doing now, without your services. Think about them standing in some clients house after they have just gave the homeowner a great idea for a very cool kitchen. When the client asks them...."Do you know anybody that can do this?"....they can either say yes or no. If they have you in their loop and they can trust you, they'll say yes. Without you, they'll say no.
Their business grows and looks better with you. It's just that simple.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for the reply. Although I'm looking forward to the meeting, I have to admit I'm pretty full, schedule-wise. The beauty of smaller projects is that I can sqeeze stuff in in between, and they don't sound like they are into anything big, at the moment.
I'll report back Mon/Tues after the meeting and let every one know how it went.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I've worked with one for about two years now and I will admit it took some getting used to. My first few jobs took me twice as long as I had planned.
We build custom buit-in cabinets and install interior millwork. My designer will meet with the clients, draw up a set of plans and then sends them via e-mail to me. In the e-mail will be pictures of the space as well as the plans. We will then touch base over the phone and go over the project with the pictures in front of both of us. I then supply the designer with a written proposal for the work and she includes that into her costs to the homeowners. I do not meet the homeowners unitl the day I start. All questions and concens go through the designer, I am just the sub-contractor.
Where I made the mistake on the first two jobs was not allowing enough time for discussions/recomendations. The designers I have met like to talk and run through every possible scenario with each project, on some projects this could take hours.
What I have done now is to figure in the first day of the project as a no construction day. This allows enough time to go over the project completly, pick-up materials and tend to any other issues with the project. The designer is aware of this and usually can get all her questions and deisgn changes answered and out of the way on the very first day, allowing me minnimal interuptions on the rest of the project.
As far as scheduling, my designer will send me an e-mail as soon as she has a new project on the radar. This gives me the chance to work the schedule to get it in at a time period that works for both of us. I usually run the schedule as a first come first served basis, but if somebody can get me 8-10 jobs per year they get some preference when it comes to the schedule.
I have gotten pretty comfortable with this arrangement and actually enjoy these projects a little more. The designer deals with the homeowners and takes the weight off my shoulders. I can concentrate on my sole project and not the entire job.
That may qualify as my longest post
Tim
That may qualify as my longest post
And well worth the price paid, too. Thanks. Sounds like a good setup, and I like your philosophy wrt schedule and someone who can profile frequent work.
I don't know if I would be comfortable not seeing the project site until construction day, however, even with the photos. But it sounds like it works for you, which is all the matters.
Thanks again.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.